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Rep. David Cicilline (D-RI) Interviewed on Possible Upcoming Testimony of Robert Mueller before House Judiciary Committee; Analyst Examines Trump Administration Stonewalling Congressional Investigative Efforts. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 13, 2019 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: -- White House stonewalling reaches new levels. The president and his allies doing all they can to block more than 20 separate Congressional investigations of the administration.

Joining me now to talk about that is Congressman David Cicilline, who serves on the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs Committee. Congressman, thank you so much for being with us. Good morning.

REP. DAVID CICILLINE, (D-RI) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: My pleasure. Good morning.

BERMAN: When is Robert Mueller going to testify before your committee?

CICILLINE: We hope very soon. It will not happen this week, according to the chairman. But the committee is still in conversations with Mr. Mueller's team, and we hope he will come before the committee. We all think it's very important that the American people hear directly from him as well as our committee so he can walk the American people through the contents of the Mueller report, explain the judgments, the decisions he's made, explain the evidence he collected during this investigation. So we hope it will happen very soon.

BERMAN: I don't understand, and I don't think the American people understand, what the holdup is here. How does this work? Does the Judiciary chair call Robert Mueller and say, Mr. Mueller, we'd like to see you before our committee, can you make it on this day, and Mueller either says yes or no? What's going on with these negotiations?

CICILLINE: That's what happens originally. Initially you ask witnesses, particularly administration witnesses, to come to the committee voluntarily. That's always been the tradition, that witnesses just come, you agree on a date, you work out the date and they arrive.

It's a little different with the Trump administration where the president has first said Mr. Barr would decide whether it's appropriate for the Special Counsel to come. Then he said he didn't come. Then he said he shouldn't come. Now he's back to, it's up to the attorney general. So I think there's been some confusion from the president. But obviously if a witness doesn't come voluntarily, the committee has the ability to issue a subpoena and we would do that with the Special Counsel. I think it's everyone's hope that he'll come voluntarily and we'll be able to work --

BERMAN: So just to be clear, is Mueller not coming voluntarily yet?

CICILLINE: No. I don't think it's fair to say that yet. There are ongoing discussions between the committee and Mr. Mueller, and there just hasn't been an agreement reached with respect to his testimony or a date. But I think everyone expects and hopes that he will come before the committee.

BERMAN: Is the attorney general getting in the way of this happening right now?

CICILLINE: It's unclear. The attorney general has said under oath that he has no objection to the Special Counsel appearing, so I hope the attorney general will not interfere with this.

BERMAN: It's just confusing about why we can't figure out if there's a date, when it will happen. I understand it may not be able to happen for a few weeks, but one might think you would at least be able to say it's going to happen on x date.

But let me move on here. What I want to know, and I think what people are curious about, is what are Democrats going to do? We put up this list of investigations, some 20 investigations, and they're all different. But on some of them the White House is just flat-out stonewalling, saying we are not going to provide the documents, we are not going to provide the witnesses. The committee has already held certain people in contempt, including the attorney general.

So I want to know what the Democrats, what you all are going to do about it? How far will you push? It's one thing to say you're in contempt. It's another thing to enforce it.

CICILLINE: I think there's no question that people should understand that Congress's oversight and investigation responsibility is really dependent on our ability to collect evidence and to compel the attendance of witnesses to testify under oath. So if the executive branch is permitted to extinguish that, it will essentially extinguish Congressional oversight, which is obviously what our Constitution compels us to do as members of Congress. So I expect that we will use all the tools and our resources, including authorizing civil contempt proceedings to hold the attorney general or any witness that doesn't appear accountable. That could include the imposition of fines. We also have inherent contempt power.

But look, we want to make sure we get the witnesses and the evidence we need to do our jobs. And I think the committees are prepared to do everything that we can and to use all the tools at our disposal to compel the attendance of witnesses and the production of documents.

We should remember, some of these oversight hearings are about the child separation policy, about giving security clearances to people who shouldn't have gotten them, about improper influence at the V.A., so it's deteriorating the conditions that are Veterans are facing. So these are serious issues.

BERMAN: You used the phrase "inherent contempt." You're a lawyer. Can you explain to our viewers what that means?

CICILLINE: Sure. So the Supreme Court of the United States recognized in a case in 1821 and again in 1935 that Congress has the authority inherently to adjudge people in contempt to defy a subpoena, and in both those cases not only to allow the Congress to hold someone into contempt but allowed Congress to take them into custody until they complied with the subpoena, which, by the way, is routinely done in courts all across America. So the idea is a subpoena is a lawful order to appear, and you can't just ignore it.

So Congress also has the inherent authority to enforce its subpoena that way. I think everyone hopes it will not get to that. But I, for one, am very committed to making certain we get the evidence and the testimony we need to do our job properly, to make informed judgments, and to be sure that we have access to the information we need to make those judgments.

[08:05:09] BERMAN: So you won't rule out inherent contempt, which inherently includes possible jail time?

CICILLINE: Yes, it will be obviously the decision of the chairman. But I've already advocated for that. Look, I think we have to be serious about this effort to collect evidence. It cannot be the case that witnesses who are served with a lawful subpoena can just ignore them. I think it's important, again, this is a stonewalling not just of Congress, but of the American people, of their right to know the truth, to demonstrate that no one is above the law. And I don't think we should rule out anything.

BERMAN: One of the things that Nancy Pelosi has said is she feels as if the president is goading the Democrats into impeachment. If that's the case then, do you need to be careful about giving him what he wants?

CICILLINE: Yes, I think we have to be careful because, look, we got elected to act on an agenda for the people of this country that focused on driving down health care costs, driving down the cost of prescription drugs, rebuilding the infrastructure of America and raising family incomes and taking on the corruption in Washington, the self-dealing. And we've moved forwardly very aggressively on all those issues, we've passed legislation in all those areas already or will be about to. So we have to stay very focused on delivering results for the American people.

They also elected us to hold this president and this administration accountable, and we need to do responsible oversight. I think we have to make informed judgments. And I think, as the Speaker said, we should never proceed with impeachment for a political reason, we should never avoid it for a political reason. We should follow the facts where they take us. But we've got to do our oversight and to hold this administration accountable.

BERMAN: I want you to take off your Judiciary hat and put on your House Foreign Affairs hat, if you will. The United States, tensions seem to be escalating with Iran. The Secretary of State canceled a trip to Moscow. He's in Brussels talking to European leaders. One of the things the administration has said is there is intelligence which points to Iran making plans to attack U.S. interests in the Gulf region. Have you been given any intelligence, have you been briefed on what information is out there?

CICILLINE: We have not been, or at least I have not been. I think this is very alarming, the change of Secretary Pompeo's trip. We should remember that part of the reason apparently this change was made because the secretary wants to speak with the Europeans about Iran's claims to no longer abide by the terms of the JCPOA, the Iran deal. We're in a sort of awkward position because we broke our participation in that deal. The Europeans have remained in it, and they have an interest in ensuring that the inspections and the limitations that were placed in the Iran deal remain in place. So we're in sort of a tough spot when we're arguing that Iran has broken the deal when we walked away from it. But we're meeting with our European allies to try to fortify their enforcement of it, apparently.

So I think this is an confusing, this is a dangerous situation. What we want to do is, obviously, avoid military engagement. I think the American people do not want another protracted war. But this is a very dangerous situation. Iran has engaged in very maligned activities in the region and getting worse. So I think this is something to be very concerned about.

BERMAN: Do you think the United States, the Trump administration is inflaming those tensions?

CICILLINE: Look, I think walking away from the Iran deal was a mistake. I think some of the language the president has been using is not helpful. But I think Iran is responsible for its own bad behavior and something that we need to confront in a serious way. And the region working with our allies, I think that was one of the advantages of the Iran deal, that once we prevented them from developing a nuclear weapon, we could push back on them in other ways in the region. So the problem is the president is also surrounded by lots of people who advocated for the Iraq War, so I think there's a lot of reason to be concerned about the advice he's getting.

BERMAN: Congressman, David Cicilline from Rhode Island, thanks so much for being with us this morning, appreciate it.

CICILLINE: My pleasure.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Joining us now to talk about everything that's happening this week, we have CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin who has a new piece in "The New Yorker" entitled "The Constitutional System is not Built to Resist Trump's Defiance of Congress." On that note, let's bring in Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

CAMEROTA: Good morning, happy Monday. You're right, "The Framers anticipated friction among the three branches of government which has been a constant throughout our history, but the Trump White House has now established a complete blockade against the legislative branch, thwarted any meaningful oversight. The system, it appears, may simply be incapable of responding to this kind of challenge."

And Jeffrey, we've already heard it. Since the Mueller report came out, since these various committees have wanted to do more investigations, we have lawmakers on all the time. And they seem a little, flummoxed isn't the right word, but a little bit at a loss for what they are going to do when these subpoenas are denied and when the requests for documents, et cetera, are denied.

[08:10:00] TOOBIN: And you saw it just a moment ago with Congressman Cicilline, talking about inherent contempt. Inherent contempt sounds like a Robert Ludlum novel, doesn't it? But the idea that Congress is going to throw the attorney general in prison for not cooperating, it's not plausible, it's not likely. I certainly don't think the Democrats want to do that.

But you can see that the reason they are even talking about this is that there has never been this kind of complete blockade before. There have been disputes all the time between the legislative branch and the executive branch. Eric Holder was held in contempt. Harriet Miers had a big fight with Congress under the George W. Bush administration. But a complete blockade, no subpoenas answered, no documents produced, no witnesses produced, it's just never happened before. And I don't think the structure of our government has a remedy for that.

BERMAN: I love this article that you wrote, as I love most of your articles. But I think this pinpoints what is the dilemma here, which is America is built on laws and norms. And I think we are learning, and maybe we didn't fully appreciate how much has been governed by norms for years. And you can break the norms, which is being done right now.

TOOBIN: Right. For example, when President Trump tweets that Michael Cohen's father-in-law should be criminally investigated. The idea of the president of the United States calling for individual criminal investigations, never been done before. It's not illegal, it's not an impeachable offense, I don't think. But it just shows how the norms have changed.

Same thing with response to Congressional oversight. George W. Bush didn't like answering to the Democrats. Barack Obama didn't like answering to Republicans, but there was a negotiation going on. Now, it may be that as the months pass, there will be some negotiations that are entered into. But at the moment, it doesn't look like there are any.

CAMEROTA: It does seem as though the White House is not particularly cowed by the threat of subpoena or the threat of contempt. But enter the judicial branch, right. Isn't this part of how the system works, which is now it will be up to the court. This is what you hear the lawmakers saying, we'll see what a judge says. We'll see what the courts decide. So it's not broken yet. TOOBIN: But even if the Democrats win in the courts -- first of all,

you have the issue of time. These cases take a long time. The Eric Holder fight with Congress over the Fast and Furious was just settled recently after seven years.

BERMAN: Last week. It was last week.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my God.

TOOBIN: Seven years.

CAMEROTA: Maybe they didn't fast track it.

TOOBIN: I'm sure they didn't fast track it. That's an extreme example. But seven months is not unusual at all. Seven months from now, who knows where we're going to be. And again, the system wasn't designed for that.

One wildcard to keep in mind is the power of the purse, is that the House of Representatives still does have the power of the purse, including the power to raise the debt ceiling. That is a point of actual leverage where Nancy Pelosi, as the leader of the House of Representatives can say we will not increase the debt ceiling until and unless you produce the following witnesses, following documents. We will not approve a continuing resolution to keep the government open. That's a political judgment. She may not think that the country would be behind her for shutting down the government over that, but that's an actual leverage point, as opposed to these court issues, which are likely to be on a slow boat to nowhere.

BERMAN: I'm trying to think when the last time they did something along those lines. I guess Jim Wright sort of starved the Reagan administration of funds to aid the Contras and it withered away based on that. That's not an exact parallel. I'd be curious to see if Democrats tried something like that.

Jeffrey, I do want your take, and this is related about laws and norms here, because Lindsey Graham, the Republican Chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee is telling a witness who has received a subpoena from the Republican chair of the Senate intelligence committee just not to comply, just ignore it. Listen to Lindsey Graham.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: As I understand it, this subpoena relates to what Michael Cohen said about some meetings and about the Trump Tower in Russia. And if I were Donald Trump Junior's lawyer, I would tell them you don't need to go back into this environment anymore. You've been there for hours and hours and hours, and nothing being alleged here changes the outcome of the Mueller investigation. I would call it a day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Ignore the legally submitted subpoena. TOOBIN: Again, a violation of the norms of procedure, particularly a

member of Congress telling a witness not to respond to a subpoena from a Congressional committee, from the Senate no less, his own body. Again, I think in the real world, Donald Trump Junior may get away with that. I don't think Richard Burr, the Republican Chairman of the Intelligence Committee wants to hold the President's son in contempt, wants to hold him in inherent contempt, whatever that is. But, you know, this is a way of defying Congress, probably with no consequences.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, on that note --

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: On that cheerful note...

CAMEROTA: On that cheery note, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you very much.

So this week, we are bringing you stories of remarkable people who are having a lasting impact around the world and up first, we'll visit the brother-sister duo that I've watched change the country.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Parkland, Florida, a city now synonymous with gun violence. In a year and a half, since 17 people were murdered at their high school, students from Marjory Stoneman Douglas have spearheaded a student-led national conversation about school security in stopping gun violence.

Two of the people leading that charge David and Lauren Hogg, a brother and sister who survived the massacre by hiding in their classrooms.

[08:20:08] CAMEROTA: They have become political and cultural forces, inspiring thousands of people including me. Here's my "Champions for Change."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

CAMEROTA: Another deadly school shooting. I am in Parkland, Florida, scene at the latest school shooting. This is the site of the deadliest school shooting in the U.S. since Sandy Hook.

When I got the call that Parkland had happened, that there was yet another school shooting, my heart sank. I have kids that I send off to school every day and I know that they're no safer than the kids at Parkland were. I flew down to Parkland. The next morning we were on the air first thing.

We're joined by two of the shooting survivors.

David Hogg was one of my first interviews. Something was different right away.

DAVID HOGG, PARKLAND, FLORIDA SHOOTING SURVIVOR: No legislative action has been taken. All we have now is more guns and more chances for things to go wrong.

CAMEROTA (voice over): A senior at the time, he took cover in a classroom during the shooting and worried about his sister Lauren, a freshman.

CAMEROTA (on camera): He just gripped the whole country's attention.

D. HOGG: Please take action ideas of...

CAMEROTA: He turned right to the camera. He was already beseeching leaders to jump into action with him.

D. HOGG: You guys, like are the adults. You need to take some action and play a role. Work together, come over your politics.

CAMEROTA: Even in the hours after they'd been through the most hideous tragedy imaginable, they were already trying to change the world.

Lauren, how are you feeling?

And I felt the same way when I met Lauren Hogg.

LAUREN HOGG, PARKLAND, FLORIDA SHOOTING SURVIVOR: Thinking about all the victims, I just know there's a reason why I made it out that day and that reason has to be, "To make change."

CAMEROTA (voice over): The "#NeverAgain," cropped up because they didn't want to ever have this happen again.

D. HOGG: We say no more.

CAMEROTA: They have traveled around the country. They've met other survivors of gun violence. They got the laws changed in Florida. They're not letting the lawmakers forget it.

What are we looking at here?

L. HOGG: This is our art installation. As I put up all those hundreds of crosses, crescents, and stars of David, I thought of my friends last year. We wrote things like teacher, doctor, to represent not only the people who were taken from gun violence but are taken from society they are in.

CAMEROTA: You wanted to get the attention of lawmakers.

L. HOGG: That's why we did it here because we wanted those people while they're walking in between breaks, when they're leaving work and know that their inaction is leading for our friends, our sisters, our brothers, our moms, and dads to die every single day.

CROWD: (Chanting: "Enough is enough. Enough is enough.")

CAMEROTA: When you hit obstacles, how is it that you have been able to stay energized? D. HOGG: By looking back at the success that we have had. We focused

on youth voter turnout and raising this voice because we know that it's not Democrats or Republicans that can solve this issue, we ask the human beings to solve this issue.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am a mother. I am a fighter and I'm a...

CAMEROTA: Is it true that the Parkland students were your inspiration to run for office?

REP. LUCY MCBATH (D-GA): Absolutely. I stood up and decided to run to flip for the Federal seat after Parkland. I was devastated that here again, we had children that were the same age as my son that were gunned down.

It would be a tragedy if I didn't stand up, and then I would be letting down my son and his legacy and every other family, every other victim that I have cried with over the last seven years since Jordan was murdered.

Each generation culturally has a cause, sitting at the lunch counters, you know, walking out of classrooms. It's the same thing. This is the Civil Rights movement that these young people are fighting for.

D. HOGG: Change is here.

We need a Congress that goes out there and talks about this issue and gives us a deadline of when they're going to actually like be able to stop gun violence.

CAMEROTA (voice over): David graduated from Stoneman Douglas in 2018. He is taking a year off from his studies to focus on activism and he plans to attend Harvard this fall.

L. HOGG: I feel as though in the last year we have made an abundant amount of progress. Honestly, how young people really have realized their power is the thing that I find to be the most profound.

REBECCA BOLDRICK, DAVID AND LAUREN HOGG'S MOTHER: They are change makers. I see both of them really changing the conversation in this country about gun violence, and then going forward and being leaders in our country.

L. HOGG: It's still hard for me to think of myself as an activist because honestly, I never had that in mind when I started speaking out. I just was a kid who was upset that my friends were murdered in my school.

D. HOGG: I also look ahead to the future and I just can't wait until we pass our first piece of Federal legislation. The law will just be an incredibly impactful moment.

[08:25:07] CAMEROTA: What's been your greatest achievement?

D. HOGG: Like, we've shown that we can lead and we are leading together with other generations. I know that we can end this issue. CAMEROTA: I'm just so impressed with these kids. All of us thought

maybe this will peter out, maybe they'll have to be busy with school but they haven't given up. They're just as strong a year later. They just are as energized as the day that I first met them.

CROWD: (Chanting: "Enough is enough. Enough is enough")

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I mean, just really, really impressive people, you know. I mean, I think that it bears repeating that those kids and their classmates were in action immediately.

BERMAN: Within hours.

CAMEROTA: Within hours.

BERMAN And I also, you know, the focus of this entire series is change. And there's just no question that these kids, "kids" have instituted change, have caused a change where a lot of people don't think aren't going to happen.

CAMEROTA: Like Florida. I mean Florida, that was seen as a place that wouldn't be open to new legislation and they got it done.

BERMAN: I was so psyched that you talk to their mother, too. I don't remember hearing from.

CAMEROTA: No, because I mean, the kids have taken such prominence in center stage that the parents have receded. The parents aren't the ones who were pushing them. Their teachers aren't the ones who are pushing them. No adults were. It's really just these teenagers.

So, we'll share these inspiring stories all week. Don't miss a powerful hour long, "Champions for Change," special. CNN journalists are going to revisit the stories that we've never forgotten that continue to inspire all of us today, "Champions for Change," Saturday night 8:00 p.m. Eastern.

BERMAN: So I sang, just to give you a little piece ...

CAMEROTA: You're going to sing?

BERMAN: I'm not going to tell you why or how but I ...

CAMEROTA: Okay, I have got to go home and set my DVR right now.

BERMAN: I sang.

CAMEROTA: I'm so excited.

BERMAN: I think I'm going to play it during the show tomorrow. So in theory you're going to be here.

CAMEROTA: Do you dance at all?

BERMAN: There is movement.

All right, Breaking News. China has just retaliated against the United States for little latest round of tariff hikes. Dow futures down nearly 500 points on the news. We're going to bring you the breaking details. People were waiting to see what would happen. It happened. Stay with us.

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