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Real World Impact of Trump's Trade War; Bill Barr Orders Investigation into Origins of Special Counsel Mueller Probe; Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Seems to Criticize Presidential Candidate Joe Biden on Climate Change. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired May 14, 2019 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- Washington Bureau Chief for "VICE News Tonight." OK, guys, let's just start with back here at home for a moment, what's happening with Bill Barr. So Shawna, this will be the third investigation into the Trump ties to Russia and the origin of that investigation. We haven't heard the results of the other two. I don't even know what the status is of the other two. But Michael Horowitz, the I.G. is supposedly on it, and I guess reaching a conclusion at some point. Not sure why we need John Durham and a third investigation, but Bill Barr has ordered one.

SHAWNA THOMAS, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "VICE NEWS TONIGHT" ON HBO: And the attorney general has said that we expect the I.G. report very, very soon, probably in June. So we'll find out a little bit more about the origins of the investigation.

But it is a little bit confusing that if the president wants to move on from this and the Mueller report, he says it didn't find any conspiracy in it, and it didn't come to a conclusion on obstruction of justice, why keep calling attention to it? But then if you can turn it into a 2020 issue that you were attacked and they are trying to take this presidency away from you unfairly, can you garner some support and sympathy from your base that actually energizes them the way we're seeing the Democrats energized? I think that's what the president and his campaign are going to turn this into.

William Barr and what he's doing, that is a little bit confusing I think for everybody. And I think people want to hear more from him, but he doesn't appear to want to come back to Congress to talk.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Abby, you say the attorney general is doing this you think because he has to.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think President Trump has made it very clear what he wants to happen over at the Justice Department. He wanted an attorney general who looked further into where this investigation came from. The president has been repeating ad nauseam that he believes that the real crimes were committed by the Democrats, and I think that given that he fired his former Attorney General Jeff Sessions and hired Bill Barr to replace him, he is looking for in Barr someone who can figure that part of it out. I think that's very clear to Bill Barr. And given how early it is in his tenure and the fact that Barr -- this

is in some ways the very first thing Barr is doing outside of releasing the Mueller report, it is a sign that even Barr believes that this is critical to his tenure in this particular job.

But I think on the other hand, to Shawna's point, the president is viewing this as a tool that he can use going into 2020. It's part of a pattern of the president and his allies to turn the tables on the Democrats. They believe that it's almost as if they were investigated after 2016, and now they need to make sure that their political opponents are investigated as well. It's part of what's motivating Rudy Giuliani to try to go after Joe Biden and ties to Ukraine. These are all part of the same efforts on the part of the president and his allies to turn the table on Democrats in a way that they think is similar to the way that they have been gone after, in their view, as a result of this Mueller investigation.

CAMEROTA: David, it sounds like, at the moment, Bill Barr in choosing this U.S. attorney from Connecticut, John Durham, has chosen a straight shooter, somebody who at least at this moment on paper is seen as a career prosecutor, has worked for Democrats and Republicans, has done his job faithfully under Eric Holder, Janet Reno, et cetera. But strange things happen sometimes when people begin getting into the Trump orbit. How do you see it?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, Barr himself is an example of that. He has basically signaled that he is going to take his cues from the White House on all of these matters. This is just the latest of that. So the country really needs a straight shooter here, someone who is not going to allow themselves to be used as part of a larger political project.

And I agree with what everyone has said previously here, this is central to the president's narrative, that this whole investigation was a politically motivated probe, that it was orchestrated by Democrats, that it was predicated on the so-called Steele dossier, none of which has been borne out by the reporting we have seen so far. But it is a real thing in right wing media and out of the White House and out of the president's tweets, and Barr has shown again that he's willing to accommodate the president, which is a real concern for the rule of law in this country and the traditional role of the attorney general as the attorney for the people of the United States, not as a functionary for the president.

BERMAN: All right, let's talk about some 2020 news, if we can, because I think there were a lot of interesting developments overnight. One of them was that Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez was appearing at an event with Senator Bernie Sanders, and they were talking about the Green New Deal, which is their effort to battle climate change, and Representative Cortez was responding directly to some comments that were reported by "Reuters" the other day about Joe Biden. Joe Biden, the former vice president, is going to give a speech about climate change soon, this month, we think.

[08:05:04] But an adviser to Biden suggested that he was looking for some kind of middle ground on the issue of climate change. You can see the headline from "Reuters," we just put it up right there. The Biden campaign has since backed up and said no, no, no, not middle ground. Wait until you hear our plan. But this was something that the congresswoman really jumped on last night. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ALEXANDRA OCASIO-CORTEZ, (D) NEW YORK: I will be damned if the same politicians who refuse to act then are going to try to come back today and say we need a middle -- a middle of the road approach to save our lives. That is too much for me.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So, David, let me go in reverse order here. I want to start with you. It's interesting to hear the congresswoman come out so directly, that was a direct comment, I feel, about Joe Biden there, and it seemed to be a warning to me about more than just climate change for this campaign.

AXELROD: Absolutely. This is a surrogate, John, for a larger battle that we're going to see between the anti-establishment left and more traditional politicians of whom Biden is representative. Biden represents a center-left approach to government that focuses on compromise and focuses on moving the ball forward, what the critics on the left would call incrementalism. And AOC is all about the other argument. She is reportedly considering both Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, who are much more anti-establishment in their approach to politics.

And this is a fundamental fissure in the Democratic Party, and Biden is squarely on one side of the line, Sanders squarely on the other. It's a debate we saw unfold in the 2016 race. It is likely to unfold again in 2020, and AOC will be someone everybody is watching because she is sort of captured the imagination of the media as a spokesperson for that point of view.

CAMEROTA: Shawna, what does that look like? If a centrist, let's just say hypothetically, wins the primary, then what do the people who are more left leaning do to that candidate?

THOMAS: I have a hard time believing that Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, if Joe Biden were to win the primary, and that's a big if, there are a lot of people in this race and we have a lot of time, would not then support Joe Biden against President Trump. I also think, as much energy as she has in Washington, D.C., and as much as we pay attention to her, especially in the press, I'm not sure any of my teams that have been to Iowa for VICE News tonight have had anyone mention what AOC thinks about anybody. So I'm not saying she's not important and I'm not saying she shouldn't use her voice for what she believes. I am saying that I don't know if Joe Biden needs to calibrate his entire campaign based on Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

BERMAN: It does show -- go ahead, Abby. PHILLIP: Yes, I think that that's exactly right, that there is this

phenomenon in which the most vocal forces on the left are setting the agenda in the media, setting the agenda on social media, setting the agenda among activists, which is actually quite important. But the person who actually comes out of this primary has to run a campaign that can garner millions and millions and millions of votes of people who simply aren't voting based on what AOC is saying. And I think that Joe Biden probably needs to recognize that if he doesn't already.

And I think the fact that there's a lot of attention on activism, on climate change, and it's a major force for fundraising in the Democratic Party, but Joe Biden has also shown that he can fundraise. He can get what he needs to get in -- and in his ability to compete with these more grassroots candidates like Warren and Bernie Sanders. So I think Biden is coming from somewhat of a position of strength, probably to the surprise of a lot of people. And I think that he can't get bogged down in a media narrative or even a kind of activist narrative because this is ultimately about what voters want. And we need to kind of wait and see how that shapes up over the next several months.

AXELROD: And, John, it's not just in the -- it's not just in the general election. It's also true that for all of the -- for all the sense that the Democratic Party has drifted left and so on, half the Democrats describe themselves as moderate or conservative. You go to -- last week there was a poll in New Hampshire, 58 percent of the voters in New Hampshire were independent voters, can participate, described themselves as moderate or conservative. Joe Biden was getting 45 percent of that vote. So he has a lane here, and he has it -- there's some competition for it, but he's really dominating his lane in this primary. I don't think he's going to veer very far left here to accommodate AOC.

[08:10:00] BERMAN: Let's talk about Beto O'Rourke, if we can, because Beto O'Rourke is talking about the Beto O'Rourke campaign. He went on with Rachel Maddow last night, basically saying there is a little bit of a reset just a couple months after announcing his candidacy. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BETO O'ROURKE, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've been on the road now for eight weeks, traveling to over 15 states. I have held more than 150 town halls, running today the same way that we started. But I recognize I can do a better job also of talking to a national audience, beyond the town halls that we're having.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: It's the "but" there in the middle, Shawna, I think that matters, but I recognize I need to do a better job talking with a national audience.

THOMAS: The thing is he did ignite this fire in Texas. And I am from Texas, and I went to a couple of events for coverage and things like that, but running against Senator Ted Cruz, which a lot of people just personally don't like in the state of Texas, is very different than a national race. And I think he is starting to realize what that actually -- like what he has to actually do to win this thing.

And I realize with Rachel he is talking a little bit about recalibrating, but you only kind of get one chance to make a first impression. And I know that is a tried and true old thing that everybody says, but that's true, especially if you have 22 people and I guess Steve Bullock getting in as well, so I think we may be up to 23 people getting in the race. Can you recapture that energy you had in Texas in those first few moments out? I don't know.

But like we said, we have a long time to go, but the first impression we all got was he stands on tables and doesn't have a lot of policy positions. And one of the things that you can say about Elizabeth Warren is maybe there doesn't seem to be as much press or energy around her, but every time you go back to someone like that you get to say, hey, she's got a policy position on this, she's got a policy position on this. So you keep having something to come back to. With Beto O'Rourke we don't know what we're coming back to yet.

CAMEROTA: David, very quickly, you are the strategist. It's early days, can he get a reset right now?

AXELROD: I think he may be undervalued stock because he can make connections with people. Visceral connections that you see in a state like Iowa is very important. The question is can he beef up the other side of his profile, certainly by the time the debates happen. So he's got a shot here to come back. These things are full of -- replete with comeback stories, these presidential races, people who are written off in the spring and end up being something more than we thought in the fall. But he's got a lot of work to do, as he said in that interview.

BERMAN: All right, David, Abby, Shawna, thank you all very much. Great discussion.

CAMEROTA: All right, President Trump's trade war is causing major real life consequences for American business owners. So we'll talk with one CEO who says the tariffs are already hurting his company. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:16:49] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: American companies are already feeling the pain of President Trump's trade war with China. One business owner of the largest U.S. bicycle manufacturing company in the country says the tariffs are keeping him from hiring more workers.

Joining us now is Arnold Kamler. He's the CEO of Kent International.

Mr. Kamler, thanks so much for being here.

Explain that -- explain how the tariffs are already preventing you from your vision, which you had had for a long time of, of hiring more workers. ARNOLD KAMLER, CHAIRMAN AND CEO, KENT INTERNATIONAL: When we began

the venture to -- we made the decision in 2013 to reshore, we met with former Governor Nikki Haley and to introduce us. So, we're very excited. So, we made a very daring investment to start manufacturing. So, it was our plan --

CAMEROTA: But you would always been a supplier. You had been a bicycle supplier but then you decided to start manufacturing.

KAMLER: We did manufacturing also. I mean, our company started importing bicycles in 1958, I joined the company after college in 1972, and we started manufacturing bicycles in 1979 and we did it for 12 years.

CAMEROTA: And so, your plan was to continue growing the company as it has been, but what's the impediment? Why have tariffs prevented from --

KAMLER: Well, I mean, we stopped manufacturing in '91. We have never stopped importing bicycles, it was always a supplement, you know, a dual strategy, but when we started our plan was that we would start by doing pure assembly. The next step, we installed a very expensive and modern painting system, all made in the United States, actually, made in Indiana and the idea was we would then at the next step paint the frames.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

KAMLER: But as the next step we would buy the steel from overseas, we would weld it as the next step and then after that we would buy American steel.

CAMEROTA: Right. But what I'm getting at is why can't you hire more workers as you had hoped?

KAMLER: Well, a lot of things happened. When the first round of steel tariffs occurred, the concept was -- it was a great idea, but the concept was that this would encourage more competition and more American manufacturers. Instead what happened when the tariffs of 25 percent went on steel, all the American steel makers raised their prices. So it would make us less competitive so we've continued to use the imported frames that we're buying from China.

CAMEROTA: I mean, what I think -- the reason I think you have such an interesting perspective is because, as you say, your family has been in the bicycle industry for a long time. 1907 I think is when --

KAMLER: That's right. My grandfather owned a bicycle shop on Division Street in New York City.

CAMEROTA: OK. And have you ever seen anything like the climate that you're experiencing right now?

KAMLER: This is very difficult. I mean, it's a tough business that we are in, but now we never know what our cost is going to be, even the tariffs we don't know whether they are going to go to 25 percent or they are going to stay there or they're going to go back to zero.

And so, trying to make an intelligence decision for overall business and sourcing, I mean, we have looked at places like Taiwan where the duty would be less, we've looked at Cambodia where there would be no duty.

CAMEROTA: Can you manufacture everything in the United States as the president is suggesting?

KAMLER: Not right away. There is no American bicycle industry.

[08:20:01] It got completely wiped out in the '90s. There was a major anti-dumping action filed against China, but China was found -- they were vindicated --

CAMEROTA: But in other words, it's impossible -- if you were to do everything here in the U.S. as is, I think, the president's hope, that is currently impossible for you.

KAMLER: Well, today, it's impossible but we have formed a coalition along with a great company, specialized bicycle company. It's called American Bicycle Reshoring Coalition, and we want to meet in Washington when we have ideas as to how we could completely rebuild the American bicycle industry, including making virtually all the bicycle parts in the United States.

CAMEROTA: But in the meantime, let's say for summer if people want to buy a bike, will the prices be higher starting now?

KAMLER: Well, of course the prices will be higher. We work -- let me just explain something to be very, very clear. On a particular bicycle that say we buy from China at $60 FOB China, we have to pay the ocean freight that's about $8, we have to pay other costs that are about $2, we pay the import duty of 11 percent, so that's $6.60, now we pay an additional 10 percent, $6, and then they are talking about another 15 percent, which would be another almost $10.

CAMEROTA: Because of the tariffs.

KAMLER: Because of the tariffs. So our cost has gone up somewhere -- what -- $15.

CAMEROTA: And you have to pass that on to the buyer.

KAMLER: Well, our profits are minimal. We deal with large companies and it's a very competitive landscape. We have no choice.

CAMEROTA: So what do you want to tell the president today?

KAMLER: Well, if I had a message for President Trump, it would be that the answer is not necessarily tariffs. The answer is working with American companies to find out what they need to grow.

There are great groups, there's -- that were National Association of Manufacturers who have been trying to help. You know, let me reference an old book that I read written by a guy named Akio Morita, chairman of Sony, it's called "Made in Japan."

And he talked about America's lack of supporting U.S. manufacturing. They said, gee, whenever a president were to go to a grand opening, that's considered like antitrust as opposed to in England the queen goes and breaks a bottle of champagne on the factory.

So there are things that we can do and that's what I would encourage the president to try to do and we would love to meet with the president or Mr. Kudlow or Commerce Department and we have lots of ideas how to grow an American industry without having to increase tariffs.

CAMEROTA: Well, I bet they would like to hear them. Please let us know if an invitation comes from Mr. Kudlow or the president.

KAMLER: I hope so. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Arnold Kamler, thank you very much. Best of luck.

KAMLER: OK, thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: OK, a quick programming note. Friday night at 9:00, CNN's Erin Burnett investigates how President Trump and his family do business. Please be sure to check out this CNN special report.

John?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Tensions are rising between the United States and Iran. We will speak to a leading Democrat in the Senate about the potential of a military confrontation. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:27:04] BERMAN: President Trump just welcomed far right Hungarian leader Viktor Orban to the White House.

As for whether or not he should have, we will let John Avlon explain in today's reality check -- sir.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, you guys.

So, President Trump just welcomed the far right populist prime minister of Hungary to the White House and said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Viktor Orban has done a tremendous job in so many different ways, highly respected, respected all over Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AVLON: Now, that might sound like routine Oval Office flattery, but it's a lot more loaded. Because that tremendous job that Viktor Orban is best known for is dismantling democracy. "The Atlantic" recently described him as a state-of-the-art autocrat, subverting the institutions that might challenge his authority.

Among his greatest hits, rigging his nation's elections through redistricting, so his party has virtually no chance of losing. Packing the courts and rewriting the constitution to solidify his control over the judiciary. Taking control of the media and loading it with partisan loyalists, kicking out an international university and railing against so-called enemies of the state including Gorge Soros and Muslim immigrants.

Putting up razor wire, fences, to block off the flow of refugees. Supporting Putin in Russia's annexation of Crimea. And check out this ethno nationalist master police, quote: We do not want to be diverse. We do not want our own color, traditions, and national culture to be mixed with those of others.

This is not the language of a traditional American ally, but in an instant classic of understatement, President Trump described Orban as probably like me, a little bit controversial.

Not least you think this was a slip to the tongue, Trump's own ambassador to the Hungary, David Cornstein, just told "The Atlantic", quote, I can tell you knowing the president for a good 25 or 30 years that he would love to have the situation that Viktor Orban has. The White House says this quote was taken out of context but former strategist Steve Bannon has described Orban as Trump before Trump.

Trump's admiration of autocrats is part of a pattern. Take a look at some of other strongmen he's embraced. There's the Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte, best known for cracking down on civil liberties and the free press, while empowering vigilante justice, once favorably compared himself to Hitler and bragged that he would kill millions of drug addicts.

There's Egyptian President Sisi visiting the White House in April. According to Human Rights Watch, he has disappeared thousands of opposition, designated media organizations as terrorists and mainstreamed the use of torture.

Trump has praised the beautiful letter he has gotten from Kim Jong-un with whom he fell in love. He ran interference for Saudi Crown Prince MBS after he was connected to the old blooded murder of "Washington Post" journalist Jamal Khashoggi and has refused to help Congress get to the bottom of what happened. And, of course, he still can't bring himself to say a bad word about Vladimir Putin.

All this matters because liberal democracy is under attack around the world. Countries like Viktor Orban's Hungary show how quickly freedoms can be rolled back while realigning his nation into Russia's autocratic orbit.

Trump occupies the office usually known as leader of the free world. We should expect the American president to stand up against autocrats, not embrace and empower them. And that's your reality check.

CAMEROTA: All right. John, thank you very much.

END