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Alabama Abortion Ban Could Provoke Challenge; Trump Junior Strikes Deal to Testify; Pelicans Win Draft Lottery; Jim Sciutto's New Book "The Shadow War". Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired May 15, 2019 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00] PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: See that as a legal move. I see that as we're discussing is a political move. This is -- this is an effort to get this to move through the courts. I can't imagine sitting here in five years, in two years, discussing whether you're arresting people in Alabama.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Why, because you think it's going to be struck down? I mean it is law in Alabama.

MUDD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I understand what it's designed to do, but this is what they want to happen in Alabama.

MUDD: Yes. I mean, if I'm law enforcement, I'm saying, you guys, politicians, you've got to figure this out because this is a tinderbox in any state, including Alabama. Again, I think this is going to move through the courts. I don't know how expeditiously. I think this is the -- what politicians in Alabama saying, we're not really expecting this to be law in Alabama. We're expecting this to be law in the United States, and this is just the first step.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it will be -- federal courts will have to rule on it and Alabama expects them to overturn their law.

MUDD: Yes.

BERMAN: And they'll appeal the law all the way to the Supreme Court.

John, Jeffrey Toobin -- who we're going to have on in a little bit -- when Brett Kavanaugh was confirmed to the Supreme Court, he flat out said, this is the end of Roe versus Wade. Kavanaugh will be the deciding vote to overturn Roe versus Wade. Is it that simple?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's certainly what these sponsors of these bills are backing. And, of course, it contradicts what Kavanaugh allegedly told, you know, senators about Roe v. Wade, that this is settled law, stare decisis. And yet the activists in these southern states, in Alabama and Georgia, seem to have gotten a very different message from his appointment. And so it does call into question all the folks who said, look, this isn't an issue, this isn't about inflaming the culture wars, this isn't about imposing socially conservative values and running them up through the courts because the people in the state level seem to have gotten a very different message from these court picks.

CAMEROTA: There are all sorts of cases now, Catherine, that are coming -- that journalists are finding of people who would be forced to have children. For instance, an 11-year-old rape victim --

AVLON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: In Ohio would be forced to have that child.

CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN COMMENTATOR: Yes. Well, there was a vote as to whether there would be an exception for cases of rape or incest, and that failed, right? So children who are pregnant, who are definitionally the victims of rape, because we have statutory rape laws in this country, they would be forced to bear their own children.

CAMEROTA: The fetus would has to have a lethal anomaly, not just a, you know, globally complicated anomaly, a lethal anomaly. And I'm just wondering, with lawmakers, with their logic, do they think that the outlook, the future outlook for that 11-year-old and her child will be rosy? Do they think that the taxpayers won't have to intervene in the future?

RAMPELL: I don't think they've thought it through. I really don't. I think that their idea of protecting life ends at birth, right? It's the idea that we are going to force people to have children and not going to provide the social services necessary to actually raise those children in a healthy environment.

AVLON: Right. And, look, this is also what happens when religion and politics start to mix. And the fact that they did not create an exception for rape or incest is what's going to make this so intentionally toxic and maybe a sign of them going too far legislatively, where -- which is difficult for -- to swallow. But this is going to inflame the culture wars in a deep, fundamental way and it is intended to do so. Whether it takes effect, watch its progress through the courts. But I think most folks, if you look at polling on abortion will say, the no exceptions for rape and incest, that is way more extreme. Good people can disagree on this issue, but this is an extreme position (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: It's explicitly intended to inflame.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: They say it outright.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: They want this to go all the way to the court and they think they have a chance to have the court overrule it.

I want to move on to another subject now, Phil.

Donald Trump Junior has agreed to testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee. There were all kinds of threats. He wasn't going to comply with the subpoena. He had his friends attacking the Republican chair of that committee, Richard Burr. Ultimately he's conceded. He'll go. He'll only testify for two to four hours. They're going to limit the scope of what those questions are, but he's going.

MUDD: Yes, good. Finally we have a compromise. We did something beyond a subpoena. Look, he's going to answer questions, I suspect, on the one key issue. We have a Mueller report that talks about things like the Trump Tower meeting that's somewhat different than what Don Junior told the committee. You can talk for eight hours, 15. There's only one real question I'd have, why is there a difference, Mr. Trump, between what you told us and what we learned from the Mueller report?

The only other thing I'd say is that Congress can agree to limitations on what he says. I can't believe a member of Congress is going to sit there and say, well, there's rules about what I can say, so I'm not going to ask this question. Once he's on the hot seat, it going to get hot.

CAMEROTA: They're going to get -- he's going to -- they're going to ask, but he doesn't have to answer anything that he's already testified to in the past.

MUDD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: That's one of the rules. And -- but, again, I'm with Phil. I think that this is progress --

AVLON: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Because there's been so much stonewalling and, you know, a lot of people decided not to comply with subpoenas. And so the idea that he is coming back and says that he doesn't want to testify to things he already has, that actually makes sense. But that if there is a discrepancy, then he has to.

AVLON: Right. And he's being called because there are discrepancies. But, again, look, it's progress. Yes, you had U.S. senators telling the President's family to ignore the rule of law. That's nuts by any --

[06:35:01] BERMAN: The chair of the Judiciary Committee.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: Who you would think would be down with the law.

CAMEROTA: Named Sen. Lindsey Graham.

AVLON: Would care about the law, yes.

So this is progress. But it's still a degree of special treatment. He's got to answer some key discrepancies, though, and that's what this follow-through is all about.

BERMAN: Catherine, you're taking the under on this being a deal here that makes sense. RAMPELL: Look, I think it's a -- it's distressing how low our expectations are that we consider it progress to be abiding by the law. Oh, they're not breaking the law, yay, you get a cookie, you know? And I think it's also very troubling that the terms that they have agreed to suggest that if they've asked him something in the past, that he can just say, you know, I don't need to answer that because I answered it before. I think the objective here, the transparent objective is that it's much easier to keep your story straight if you don't have to remember what your story is, if you don't have to repeat it. And I think that's how this whole -- the bounds of this whole discussion are designed.

I think Phil is right, that it may be the case that senators and -- or members in general say, you know what, we're not going to abide by whatever terms we agreed to before. But the fact that this is the set- up I think is very distressing.

CAMEROTA: OK, quickly, Phil, Bill Barr has chosen a U.S. attorney from Connecticut, John Durham, to look into the origins of the Russia investigation.

MUDD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: You know him or you know of him. What are your thoughts?

MUDD: This is a good move. I mean there's a lot of negative commentary about this. There's a couple reasons it's a good move. Number one, it gets it out of Congress, because they will hose this up faster than we can have this conversation.

But, second, he is highly respected. He's done sensitive investigations before.

And id' close by saying, if you're the attorney general and you've got the most significant, political investigations in 50 years, I think it makes sense that you'd say, can I bring somebody in to look at this. The alternative wouldn't be to say, I think it went fine, I don't need to bother. People will argue with this, but I think it's a good move.

BERMAN: I will note, "The New York Times" is reporting it's not a criminal investigation --

MUDD: Yes.

BERMAN: Which limits his power. We're going to find out much more about that over the next --

CAMEROTA: And -- but also they're reporting that -- and I think we are as well -- that he has been meeting already with the CIA and the FBI.

MUDD: Yes.

BERMAN: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And that's a good sign too.

MUDD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean that's -- they would know.

MUDD: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Thank you very much.

BERMAN: All right, Catherine, Phil, John, thank you very much.

An awful night for Knicks fans.

CAMEROTA: Oh, don't I know it.

BERMAN: Honestly, I could say that any night of the year. But this was particularly bad. The bounce of the ping-pong ball that has them partying on Bourbon Street. Honestly, I could say that any night also. "Bleacher Report" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:41:19] BERMAN: The bizarre claim from New York Knicks fans that they are somehow relevant once again proven wrong. They lost the NBA draft lottery. Zion Williamson, he's not coming.

Andy Scholes has more in the "Bleacher Report."

Good morning, Andy.

ANDY SCHOLES, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: You can just tell by reading that, John, that you're not from New York or a Knicks fan at all. But, you know, Knicks fans, you know, they'd been praying for Zion ever since they had the worst record in the league last season. But, you know, unfortunately for them, the NBA changed the draft lottery format this year to discourage teams from tanking. So instead of a 25 percent chance at the top pick, the Knicks had just a 14 percent chance.

Now, the lottery now draws for the top four picks instead of three. And the Knicks and their good luck charm, Patrick Ewing, they made it into that top four, as did the Lakers. We had some high drama, but it quickly fizzled. The Lakers got the fourth pick. And then despite how hard this guy and the bottom right was praying, Knicks fans, they had their dreams crushed when it was announced that they would be picking third in the draft.

It came down to the Pelicans and the Grizzlies for that top pick, and it would be the New Orleans Pelicans winning the Zion Williamson lottery.

And check out the reaction from the Pelicans' ticket office employees.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Grizzlies!

(END VIDEO CLIP) SCHOLES: Yes, all of those people just acted like they won the lottery, and, you know, they kind of did. Going to be pretty easy to sell tickets with Zion in the fold.

And here's your draft order. It's going to be Pelicans, Grizzlies, Knicks, then Lakers. And one thing is clear from this new draft lottery format, tanking to have the worst record. It's not going to work out well for teams anymore. The Pelicans had just the seventh best odds, guys, of getting that top pick.

But, you know, all is not lost for the Knicks, guys. The third pick still very valuable. They can get RJ Barrett or maybe even trade him for say Anthony Davis. But, you know, not getting Zion Williamson, definitely not the greatest night of all for the Knicks.

BERMAN: The big problem for the Knicks is that they are the Knicks.

CAMEROTA: Oh, boy. Wow.

BERMAN: They're not a storied franchise. They have fewer championships than the Miami Heat, all right. I just want to point that out.

Andy Scholes --

SCHOLES: Just pile it on this morning, John.

BERMAN: Andy Scholes, thank you very much.

SCHOLES: All right.

BERMAN: I'm going to lose my citizenship of New York shortly.

CAMEROTA: I think that's right. They're coming for you any minute right now.

BERMAN: They're coming for me.

CAMEROTA: All right, meanwhile, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo says he told Russia that election interference will no longer be tolerated. But our Jim Sciutto says that's just part of the shadow war that Russia and China are waging against the U.S. What he's learned, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:47:46] CAMEROTA: Secretary of state Mike Pompeo meeting with Vladimir Putin and Russia's foreign minister on Tuesday. And Pompeo says he told them that election interference will no longer be tolerated.

Well, CNN's chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, has an in-depth look at the secret war that Russia and China are waging against the U.S. It's all in his new book, "The Shadow War: Inside Russia's and China's Secret Operations to Defeat America," which is in bookstores today.

Jim Sciutto joins us now. Congratulations, Jim, on the book.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Thank you. Thanks so much. I appreciate it.

CAMEROTA: What a great accomplishment.

SCIUTTO: That's kind of you.

CAMEROTA: I'm going to do a dramatic reading from the book, if you'll allow me.

SCIUTTO: Fantastic.

CAMEROTA: Here is, I think, the heart of the matter, OK, and you say, all -- at the core of these repeated errors by administrations of both parties, meaning in the U.S., was a fundamental misreading of Russia and Chinese goals and intentions, colored by hope -- ultimately a false one -- that Russia and China want what the United States wants.

Why has the U.S. gotten it so wrong?

SCIUTTO: You know, it's interesting, I spoke to loads of current and former intelligence officials, defense officials, who served in both administrations and who were self-critical in their analysis of this. They were folks who were in charge of the CIA, the NSA, the ODNI at the time that the U.S. was making these mistakes. And they -- they fess up to it and say, we looked at them and said, welcome then into international order. Welcome, China, into the WTO. Welcome, Russia, to a cooperative agreement with NATO, et cetera.

And over time they will change. They will see the light. They'll become more Democratic. We can work together on a whole list of things.

But -- but the fact is, Russia and China have their own interests. They have their own interest, particularly in regaining a dominant position. Russia, post fall of the Soviet Union. China, post -- there's so much history on this too. China feels like it's -- it's retaking its position on the world stage from back in the 19th century, right? And there's pride involved. There's an enormous military build-up involved.

So this idea that they wanted what we believe they wanted was just a false one. And -- and even when the evidence was contrary, right, through the years, folks just didn't see the light. And only now are they beginning to see the light on this.

BERMAN: Can I touch the book? Can I -- can I hold the book?

[06:50:01] CAMEROTA: All right.

BERMAN: As I talk about it?

CAMEROTA: Go ahead. BERMAN: What I think is so interesting is you talk about the expanded

battlefield between Russia, China and the United States. And essentially that battlefield is everywhere. I mean everywhere. You go into detail about space, satellites that eat satellites. And it's not just space. It's not just the ground. It's not just Crimea. It's also the Arctic. And I remember, Jim, when you went in the sub, which is crazy, underneath the ice.

CAMEROTA: Yes. That was intense.

SCIUTTO: And fun. And fun.

CAMEROTA: That's good to know.

BERMAN: I'm going to stick with -- I'm going to stick with crazy. But -- but you write, the shrinking of the ice has transformed the Arctic from a wasteland to a land of opportunity and potential conflict.

SCIUTTO: So, here's the thing. I think that Americans are generally aware of, for instance, election interference. They know Russia interfered in the election. They're aware, for instance, that China steals trade secrets. OK, but those are just one front of what is really a multi-front war. Do Americans know, as you said, that Russia and China deployed space weapons? I mean it's Star Wars now. Russia has what we refer to as kamikaze satellites. They're designed to ram in and take away essential U.S. national security and civilian satellites. China has developed one that has a grappling arm on it that can literally lift satellites out of orbit if China decides to cripple us that way. And no country in the world is more advanced in this technology than the U.S. is, but also more dependent on it. And they know it.

So, you have cyber, you have outer space, you have this competition under the waves. China and Russia deploying more advanced submarines that are harder for us to attack. Why is that important? That means they can show up on America's coastline with nuclear missiles. The possibility of an attack without warning.

And, you know, this is something that the U.S. watched but wasn't quite connecting the dots on until recently. And one of the troubles is, this is the way submarine commanders are talking about it. It's the way, you know, aircraft carrier commanders are talking about it. The way folks in the NSA are talking about it. But it's not the way the president is talking about it.

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean --

SCIUTTO: He's not connecting the dots on this threat, particularly when it comes to Russia

CAMEROTA: And there-in lies the rub. And so the fact that now the -- you know, people say that they have eyes wide open about what Russia is doing, what do they think when they hear President Trump say that he believes Vladimir Putin over the intel agencies, as he did in Helsinki. We all remember where he said he doesn't see why it would be Russia or why it would be Vladimir Putin. So it -- what are we to make of that?

SCIUTTO: It's demoralizing. I'll say -- so I spent a lot of time on this book on the ground, on the fronts of each of these wars. You know, speaking to people in space command, U.S. space command, who were thinking of ways to defend our satellites. You speak to the submarine commanders, you speak to the commanders of the surveillance flight captains, you know, flying surveillance missions over China. They see it this way. Both people in uniform and not in uniform. And they're fighting -- they're fighting this war today. But they will say, we can't do it without leadership from the top.

And you hear this from inside the government, inside President Trump's own administration, that you need a whole of government response. And when you have a president, for instance, who's held one cabinet-level meeting on election security, how seriously is he taking it, one, but do you have the resources necessary to fight back?

And it is demoralizing and it raises questions. And I'll tell you, not only does it raise questions here, but it raises questions from our adversaries about how serious is the president about this and can those countries take advantage of that lack of seriousness? And, absolutely, that's their view. And you see it happening.

BERMAN: The book is "The Shadow War," available today.

Jim, congratulations.

SCIUTTO: Thanks very much. I appreciate you guys having me on.

BERMAN: Please, come back. We love having you on. It's great having you on the show.

SCIUTTO: I'm just going to stay. I'm just going to stay here all week.

BERMAN: I know.

CAMEROTA: That would be great.

BERMAN: You've got a show at 9:00.

CAMEROTA: I mean, actually, you have to write another book to come back, but that's fine.

SCIUTTO: OK, fair enough.

CAMEROTA: OK.

BERMAN: Again, this book's so relevant given that Mike Pompeo, on his way back from Russia, to brief the president on his meetings with Vladimir Putin today.

Jim, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thanks so much, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Thank you. CAMEROTA: All right, up next, Alabama lawmakers passing the most restrictive abortion ban in the country. Is this headed for a Supreme Court showdown? Jeffrey Toobin has a lot of thoughts on this. He's here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:57:59] BERMAN: The comics making hay of the U.S. trade war with China. Here are your "Late Night Laughs."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SETH MEYERS, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH SETH MEYERS": President Trump is now reportedly considering placing tariffs on all Chinese imports, which could result in higher prices at stores like Target. Target? OK, now will white women turn against him? Separate families all you want, but come for my rock that says "gratitude" and we will have a problem.

JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW STARRING JIMMY FALLON": Trump isn't referring to the situation as a trade war. Listen to what he's calling it instead.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're having a little squabble with China.

FALLON: I love squabble. When I play squabble, I spell all the best words.

TRUMP: You have no tariff to pay whatsoever if you're a business. All you have to do is build or make your product in the United States. There's no tariff whatsoever. So that really works out very well.

STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": Yes. Yes, it works out well. To stop paying tariffs, all you have to do is stop using products made in China. That is going to be awkward for Trump. He's going to have to stop using his own ties and -- and his hair, I'm guessing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Inevitable.

CAMEROTA: It's funny.

BERMAN: It was inevitable.

CAMEROTA: All right, thanks to our international viewers for watching. For you, CNN "TALK" is next. For the U.S. viewers, a potential Supreme Court showdown over abortion. NEW DAY continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: The Alabama senate passing the most restrictive abortion bill in the country that could overturn Roe v. Wade.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody understood what the purpose of this bill was. We'll never get a heartbeat bill until Roe v. Wade is reversed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are concerned this court is ready to overturn the decision that was made more than 40 years ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Chinese government is leaving the door open for more talks.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're having a little squabble. I think it's going to turn out extremely well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is coming down to, can these two individuals get in a room and cut a deal? I'm not so optimistic about that.

[07:00:01] SCIUTTO: Donald Trump Junior agreeing to sit down to be questioned.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: This is a significant change, but there's still a question of what the interview is going to look like.

END