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Nancy Pelosi Meeting with House Democrats Amid Impeachment Pressure; Treasury Secretary Faces Capitol Hill Grilling Over Trump's Tax Returns; Growing Uncertainty About Mueller's Public Testimony; Schiff Cancels Meeting After DOJ Offers to Share Mueller Materials; Beto O'Rourke Calls for Impeachment Process to Begin; American Taliban Set to Leave Federal Prison Tomorrow. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired May 22, 2019 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[09:00:00] HILL: He's the 5-year-old. Mitch gives the 911 operator their address, the paramedics were there very quickly and we're told everybody is doing great. It's a nice one to end on, isn't it?

BERMAN: Give the phone to Mitch.

HILL: Just give the phone to Mitch.

BERMAN: That's what I'm doing from now on.

All right. Thanks so much for being with us this morning. "NEWSROOM" picks up right now.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right. Good morning, everyone. 9:00 a.m. Eastern, I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Jim Sciutto. We're matching this morning, just happens sometimes.

HARLOW: Don't we every day?

SCIUTTO: That's the magic.

[LAUGHTER]

SCIUTTO: Happening now behind closed doors on Capitol Hill the House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is meeting with her fellow Democrats with a key decision to make. It's the second morning in a row. And actually have two big differences. Since then another House subpoena has been defied in dramatic fashion by a former White House staffer, and more Democrats are now coming out in favor of starting an impeachment inquiry into President Trump.

Pelosi maintaining that would be a futile process that would play into the president's hands. She insists her caucus is not divided. I'm not so sure that's true.

HARLOW: But look at that. That's two dozen.

SCIUTTO: Yes. HARLOW: Members of her caucus who are saying do something that the

House speaker is saying, wait, let's not do it. That is the definition of division.

Later this morning she and Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer will speak with the president directly. Remember last time, by the way, that they did that in the Oval Office with the cameras?

SCIUTTO: Yes. Didn't go so well.

HARLOW: They got awkward.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: They'll speak directly with the president and try to build some bridges, literally build some bridges. They will talk about how they might pay for a $2 trillion infrastructure deal.

We will get to that, but let's start on the Hill. Manu Raju has some new reporting.

Good morning to you, Manu. What do we know about how Pelosi will wrangle or try to wrangle her restless caucus?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's going to try to make the case that their approach is getting results, a methodical approach, one in which the investigations are being launched across various committees and that they're prepared to go to court and they can win in certain circumstances.

This is the argument essentially against moving forward on impeachment and this is something that will be done in detail through various committee chairmen in just a matter of moments. Now one issue they're going to point to in particular according to an aid familiar with the speaker's plans is that they're going to be talking about the court ruling from Monday that allowed -- that sided with the House Oversight Committee to get records related to the Trump finances from a Trump accounting firm.

That -- she's going to point to that as a key victory that they got. Especially as there is a court hearing that's occurring today for subpoenas -- that the Intelligence Committee and Financial Services Committee issued to get financial records from Deutsche Bank and other banks, as well as subpoenas that were issued by the House Judiciary Committee to get Hope Hicks, the former White House communications director, as well as Annie Donaldson, a former White House counsel official, to appear.

Those are the types of things that they've going to be making the case about behind closed doors, but members will have a chance to ask questions, will have a chance to voice their own opinions and at that point Pelosi will have to defend her approach. We'll see how she does here, but at the moment she believes she has her caucus at bay even though some are getting restless -- guys.

SCIUTTO: So another piece of progress here, the Department of Justice making a deal in effect to give over some things that House Democrats have asked for. Tell us what's happening.

RAJU: Yes, this is significant because this is the first time we're really seeing a deal that's cut between the Trump administration and House Democrats over a subpoena that they had issued, this relating to the House Intelligence Committee chairman Adam Schiff who issued a subpoena relating to the counterintelligence information related to the Mueller probe. He had threatened enforcement action to be taken today, this morning, against the Justice Department for failing to comply with that request, but a last ditch offer made by the Justice Department to allow access to that material has led Schiff to essentially cancel this morning's meeting.

So a sign of some progress, negotiation between the two sides, something that they will point to in this meeting as a sign that they're getting results and something that Schiff plans to use as part of his investigation into the president going forward. So at the moment at least one confrontation headed off as a number are continuing to percolate, guys.

SCIUTTO: Yes. One headed off, a few more to go. Manu Raju, thanks very much.

HARLOW: All right. So also happening on Capitol Hill this morning, the Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin is facing lawmakers after rejecting a subpoena from House Democrats demanding the president's tax returns. So clearly you can expect fireworks in this hearing. This comes after the "Washington Post" reporting on a confidential memo written by an IRS attorney last fall that says Congress should get those tax returns unless the president asserts executive privilege.

Our Lauren Fox is following those headlines.

So, you know, at least Mnuchin showed up, you know, has shown up for this one.

LAUREN FOX, CNN POLITICS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right. And you know, if you remember that fiery exchange that he had with the chairwoman of that committee Maxine Waters about wanting to leave that hearing last time he appeared, so he's back today, rank and file members getting a chance to ask some questions and it has already come up that that "Washington Post" report about that confidential memo has been asked of Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin.

[09:05:06] Here is what he said just moments ago when Jennifer Wexton, a congresswoman from Virginia, asked him about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JENNIFER WEXTON (D-VA): Now we learned last night of a second opinion which was written by the IRS chief counsel's office. Are you aware of that letter or that memo?

STEVE MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: I became aware that have memo when it was -- we got an inquiry from the "Washington Post" and it was just recently published. I'm not sure who the author of that was, but I've seen it in the "Washington Post."

WEXTON: OK. So when did the "Washington Post" inquire of you about your knowledge?

MNUCHIN: I believe the day before yesterday called us up and we confirmed that we -- that I and the commissioner were not aware of that letter and had not seen it.

WEXTON: But you have since that time reviewed that memo?

MNUCHIN: Actually, I haven't reviewed it. I looked at it literally on the way up here, someone handed me the printed copy of it, so I would not describe that as I've reviewed it.

WEXTON: Did somebody make you aware that the memo states that the law does not require that the Ways and Means Committee finance chair or JCT chief of staff include a reason or purpose for the request?

MNUCHIN: Again, I haven't -- again, let me just say the legal advice that we've relied upon and, again, I understand there's three branches of government and when it comes to constitutional issues there could be different interpretations and that's why there is a third branch of government to interpret --

WEXTON: But -- I'm sorry. I'm reclaiming my time. You are aware -- you are at least aware that the conclusion of that memo directly contradicts the conclusion that you're relying upon?

MNUCHIN: No, I actually don't believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOX: And the contents of that memo, of course, Poppy, have been what Chairman Richard Neal who has requested the president's tax return has been arguing all along, that 6103 the IRS statute that he's using is indisputable. That the treasury secretary has no right not to turn over six years of the president's personal and business tax returns. But, again, a subpoena was defied last week when they did not hand over that information. We expect this fight going to court pretty soon -- Poppy.

HARLOW: OK. Lauren Fox, important reporting. Keep us posted on how that hearing continues. Thanks so much.

SCIUTTO: Well, you may have noticed that we still have not seen Robert Mueller testifying before the House Judiciary Committee or any committee. Now we're learning why. The notoriously reserved special counsel is said to be balking specifically at testifying in public.

CNN's Laura Jarrett has more on this from the Justice Department.

So, Laura, to be clear here, is he saying no to any testimony or just public testimony? Does that mean he's, therefore, open to private or closed door session?

LAURA JARRETT, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes. You nailed it, Jim. The real negotiations appear right now according to sources telling us that there's a sticking point having to do with him testifying publicly. The special counsel's team is the one that's expressing these reservations to the House Judiciary Committee and so the idea is whether some of it could be in public, some of it could be in private, but having the questions be in private is proving to be a real sticking point.

And of course, we've seen rank and file Democrats coming out left and right saying they want to hear from him publicly, they think the American public deserves to know it. At the same time Chairman Nadler has said that he's willing to subpoena Special Counsel Robert Mueller if necessary, but we haven't seen any real urgency in setting a date.

And so it's a query about whether Nadler will have to give in to those rank and file Democrats or whether he's willing to let Mueller testify at least in some part behind closed doors -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: All right. We know you're going to stay on top of it. Laura Jarrett, thanks very much.

Well, these pictures just in to CNN, this is House Speaker Nancy Pelosi heading in to that meeting with Democrats just moments ago. We have a lot to talk about here.

Jeff Mason, White House correspondent for Reuters, Robert Ray, former Whitewater independent counsel.

Thanks to both of you.

Listen, Jeff Mason, I mean, this is quite an internal disagreement here, right, among Democrats. You got the House speaker who has been pushing back against impeachment proceedings for some time, but a growing sliver or slice of her caucus differing with her. Who is going to win out?

JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Well, and the key word there is growing. I mean, it certainly didn't start with a huge majority and it is still a small minority of people who are pushing for impeachment but they are increasing and it's coming at a time when the president and the White House and the people around him are continuing to stonewall and that is creating a lot of frustration among Democrats as they are looking for ways to hold this president accountable.

I don't know the answer as to who is going to win. I think that it's clear the White House strategy is not going to change, so the challenge right now is for Speaker Pelosi, whether she's successful in tamping down some of that frustration and focusing on 2020 and, you know, really focusing on healthcare and the other issues that she wants to push to keep a House majority in the hands of the Democrats or whether or not there's some sort of middle ground in that area.

HARLOW: So she does have a history of being able to unite Democrats, right, and do it in really important moments like the Affordable Care Act, et cetera. But we'll see, right? We'll see if the game is different here. [09:10:02] Robert Ray, to you, you served as independent counsel

during Whitewater. We all remember what happened to President Clinton's approval rating post-impeachment proceedings, highest it ever was. 73 percent. So is that what the president is banking on here in terms of being able to try to capitalize on it if Democrats proceed with it and to that be at least politically a note of caution for Democrats here?

ROBERT RAY, FORMER WHITEWATER INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: Poppy, what's clear from all these stories this morning is that obviously politics is central to this, right? I mean --

HARLOW: Even when some of the Democrats say this is not about politics?

RAY: Well, they can say that, but, I mean, the truth of it is if you listen to the disparity between Democratic leadership and now these so-called 24 and growing, you know, list of Democrats that would like to advance this further, you know, those who are recently elected in the House of Representatives didn't come to Washington, if you read carefully, to conduct an impeachment proceeding.

SCIUTTO: Right.

RAY: And they -- you know, other than those who are in safe Democratic districts have to wonder since they face reelection just as the president does in less than two years whether they may well lose the House over this. That is what leadership is concerned about. So it's easy for outlier Democrats to say, you know, listen, I'm in a safe district and I'm going to push this.

HARLOW: Right.

RAY: The question, though, is if you listen to Speaker Pelosi, Jim Clyburn, you know, a number of others, Steny Hoyer, what they're cautioning is, you travel down that road and you initiate impeachment proceedings, you do so at your own peril. And potentially -- look, the American people are watching. You do so at the peril of the, you know, voters at large who are saying and watching what's going on here, now OK, are you going to do this or are you going to advance the agenda of the American people?

HARLOW: To that point can I just read for -- this really struck me in the "Washington Post" yesterday, this is from Democratic congresswoman, to your point, Elissa Slotkin, quote, "I believe in checks and balances and the constitutional division of powers but I also know that I got stopped in the grocery store constantly and what people are asking me about is the price of healthcare and the price of prescription drugs. I think the perception is Washington is more focused on checks and balances than they are on actually helping people's pocketbooks and kids."

SCIUTTO: No question.

HARLOW: Right?

SCIUTTO: It's in the polling, too, as to what --

HARLOW: That's true.

SCIUTTO: -- issues voters put at the top of their list.

(CROSSTALK)

RAY: And we're already in a presidential campaign. So what's going to happen here is, you know, they're all but being goaded into doing this by your network, MSNBC, the "New York Times," the "Washington Post," you know --

SCIUTTO: How are we goading? I mean, they're asking questions about separation of power?

RAY: Because the theater of this is -- everyone understands is irresistible. The trouble, though, is, is that in addition to members of the House worrying about reelection, this is inevitably, if it goes down this path and if Nancy Pelosi can't head this off at the pass, this is going to inevitably suck air out of the oxygen with regard to a Democratic primary and what's happening now over the course now of less than 18 months before an election.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And I know you're not alone in that analysis. It's smart analysis.

Just moments ago the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff, speaking. Let's have a listen to his words and I want to get your comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): So late last night the Department of Justice agreed to begin a rolling production of documents to our committee starting with initial set of 12 categories of documents we had requested that contain intelligence and counterintelligence information that was alluded to in the report. These are part of the underlying documents that we've been seeing. So that production should begin this week.

We should have the full 12 sets of documents by the end of next week. This does not obviate the need for the subpoena. We're going to keep that in force until we get all the documents that we're seeking, but that production is going to start now and we hope that it will continue by the department.

This, I should also mention, however, is no substitute in any way, shape or form for the appearance of Bob Mueller before our committee and the Judiciary Committee. It's no substitute for the appearance of Don McGahn and the other witnesses that have been subpoenaed to come into committee, but we are pleased that we are finally going to start receiving documents that we are entitled to from the Department of Justice.

RAJU: What do you plant to do with this counterintelligence information that you are going to get from the department? SCHIFF: I'm sorry, Elijah. I'm sorry, say that again.

RAJU: What do you plan to do with this counterintelligence information that you're getting from the department?

SCHIFF: Well, it will be part of our investigation. The entire FBI probe began as a counterintelligence investigation. We have yet to determine what that investigation found in terms of counterintelligence findings or even whether it is ongoing. But those are issues that potentially could compromise our national security, so our first priority is to get to the bottom of what the counterintelligence has to show, whether there are any steps that our committee or the Congress needs to take to protect the country.

[09:15:00] And that's the first use that we'll put it to, but this is part of our continuing investigation into Russia's interference in our affairs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So are you prepared to subpoena Bob Mueller if he does not appear before your committee?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: All right, that's the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee Adam Schiff speaking just moments ago there. And Jeff Mason, so if part of the function of initiating an impeachment inquiry is to give Congress greater powers to get documents, testimony, et cetera.

And they're not getting it, trust me, White House across the board is denying a lot of stuff, but they're beginning to get some here --

HARLOW: Yes --

SCIUTTO: From the DOJ, a court has --

MASON: Yes --

SCIUTTO: Ruled in their favor on financial records for Trump Organization. Does that obviate the need to some degree for proceeding to an impeachment inquiry?

MASON: Well, I think it gives Speaker Pelosi some ammunition to say let's just cool off for at least a little while and see how far we get going down the road that I have already charted. So that's no doubt is something that will come up in their meeting this morning.

I think, you know, going forward, though, that no one -- no one is going to back off from the side of the Democrats on trying to get those documents and trying to get Mueller to testify as well. The question is how much of that growing chorus that that we were talking about earlier of impeachment, how much that grows or to the other -- on the other side, to what extent people listen to the speaker and look at the political risks of pushing for impeachment.

One that we haven't talked about is the fact that if it ever really did move out of the house, if it got traction in the house and moved into the Senate, it would go nowhere there because of the Republican majority --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MASON: There. And that's something that's certainly at the top, I think, of Speaker Pelosi's mind and hanging over the political risks that she's taking into account going into the election.

HARLOW: Thank you both very much, Robert Ray, Jeff Mason, we appreciate it. We'll have you back. Still to come, we are talking to a member of the House Intelligence Committee ahead on its decision to cancel the so-called enforcement meeting after what you just heard from Adam Schiff -- enforcement meeting after the DOJ is offering those documents.

Also former Congressman and 2020 candidate Beto O'Rourke speaking with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, calling for Congress to begin impeachment proceedings now.

SCIUTTO: And he's known as the American Taliban, John Walker Lindh captured almost 20 years ago during the very early days of the war of Afghanistan is set to walk free tomorrow. Some top lawmakers say he hasn't reformed, he is still speaking the same way he did those years ago and they say no way.

[09:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back to you. Right now on Capitol Hill, as more Democrats grow frustrated and begin to entertain, in fact, publicly support, the idea of impeachment proceedings against the president, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is meeting with her caucus, expected to continue to push her strategy of investigations and not impeachment at least for now.

Meanwhile, a possible Olive branch between the Department of Justice and the House Intel Committee, the DOJ will now turn over some counterintelligence materials from the Mueller report as requested by that committee, in return committee canceled a vote today on taking an enforcement action against the Attorney General William Barr.

Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Peter Welch of Vermont, he sits on the House Intelligence Committee. Congressman, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.

REP. PETER WELCH (D-VT): Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So when you leave us, you're going to head into this meeting, Pelosi, the Democratic caucus here. There was a real public disagreement over proceedings with impeachment or not. Will that get resolved this morning?

WELCH: No, I don't think so, it will be ongoing. And I think two things, one, on this question of impeachment, there are the reports -- the Mueller report of numerous counts of obstruction that people want to investigate. But then second, the person that's pushing hardest for impeachment right now is Donald Trump.

He's really trying to goad Congress into impeaching him. And how is he doing that? Number one, he's taken the position that he's above the law, supported by his Attorney General and that is all the actions he took to undercut that investigation. And secondly, his stonewalling of providing any information for which he can be held accountable.

So those -- I think that's what's now raising the question among many members of Congress.

SCIUTTO: OK --

WELCH: When you have a strong president and a weak democracy with no oversight?

SCIUTTO: Now, you so far have stopped short of calling for the president's impeachment. What more evidence or information are you waiting for to make that decision?

WELCH: Well, it's a step-by-step process. I do think it makes -- it's really important for us to try to lay out in a methodical way what it is the president did, what the actions are that may ultimately result in a vote of impeachment. And that's why having these hearings and oversight, not just judiciary and in the Intelligence Community -- in the Intelligence Committee are so important.

So step-by-step lay it out. That's what I think is the process by which we have to proceed. Second --

SCIUTTO: So you're saying in effect that Pelosi's strategy is the correct one here, keep having the hearings, keep making the demands, take the president or the White House to court if necessary and that's enough.

WELCH: It may not be enough, but we'll see where it leads.

SCIUTTO: Right.

WELCH: But there's two things that have happened, one, we finally got a ruling from the district court enforcing a subpoena from Elijah Cummings' committee. That's good. Number two, we now have the Attorney General who is going to provide information to the Intelligence Committee.

So we do this step-by-step and assert the legitimate role of Congress for oversight and accountability that may -- that's the right procedure as far as I'm concerned. You know, we have to make a case. Whatever our ultimate decision is, there has to be solid support among people that we did it in a responsible and thoughtful way, and that's I think, the right way to proceed.

[09:25:00] SCIUTTO: But let me ask you this question because clearly, Nancy Pelosi is concerned about the politics here, we talk a lot on this program about how polling indicates that impeachment is not the number one or the number two, three, four concern for voters going into 2020. They're concerned about healthcare, other issues here.

Should you and your fellow Democrats vote with your hearts on this or with your political minds?

WELCH: You know, the fact is it's both because my goal here is to get things done that make a difference for the American people. I mean, if we can bring down the cost of prescription drugs, if we can get a big and bold infrastructure plan that builds out broadband in rural America, that's going to be good for folks who voted for Trump, it's going to be good for folks who voted for Hillary.

SCIUTTO: But impeachment doesn't get you closer to that. So I'm just asking you --

WELCH: That's my point --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

WELCH: That's my point, but does it -- you're exactly right. So there's a -- there's a real attention on this because our job is to do good policy that makes a difference for everyday people. And I think we've got a full speed ahead to do that, and we have been doing it.

On the other hand, what you're seeing with President Trump is unprecedented behavior where his theory of a strong president is you have to have a weak democracy.

SCIUTTO: Yes --

WELCH: He wants a president who is A, above the law, and B, who is not accountable. And his stonewalling, his complete stonewalling, not sending witnesses to committees for legitimate questions or not responding to subpoenas means that he's not accountable.

So can you have a strong president and a weak democracy? That's the real challenge here --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

WELCH: Because you can't. You have to have -- a democracy is based on accountability and no one being above the law.

SCIUTTO: Listen, you're right, and these are key questions and folks at home have to pay attention because they are consequential for the country. I want to ask you just on the different topic before I let you go, Robert Mueller according to our own reporting here at CNN may be willing to testify, but not in public, may want a private session here. Is that sufficient to you?

WELCH: Not to me. You know, I think the more that's in public, the more people have an opportunity to come to their own conclusions. If it's in private, then what you're going to do is get the Democratic version of what he said and the Republican version of what he said.

Now, I think Mr. Mueller has an unimpeachable reputation and that's why -- that's one of the reasons I'd like to have him testify in public. It's something we would value and think the American people would appreciate, but I think it's something that President Trump would fear.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Peter Welch, thanks so much for joining our program this morning.

WELCH: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, they've got a division clearly in the party as to how to proceed here.

HARLOW: I know --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

HARLOW: Congressman Raskin was telling us yesterday we're not divided, we're not divided, we're not divided.

SCIUTTO: Oh, yes --

HARLOW: It seems to be growing by the hour.

SCIUTTO: Yes, no question.

HARLOW: All right, so we'll see what happens today with Nancy Pelosi having that meeting with her caucus. Also moments from now, acting Homeland Security Secretary Kevin McAleenan expected to be grilled on Capitol Hill over a growing number of migrant children dying in border patrol custody, the fifth one yesterday. We're back.

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