Return to Transcripts main page


President Trump Welcomed By The Royal Family; Jared Kushner Refuses To Admit Trump Is Racist; Sen. Julian Castro (D-TX) Is Interviewed About His Presidential Run And His Talking Points About Certain Issues; Google, Apple, Amazon, And Facebook Under Investigation By Congress. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired June 3, 2019 - 22:00   ET


[22:00:00] CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Now that is something worthy of repeating.

Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: We were like, say what? Did he say if the president was more of a queen? You said more like a queen.

CUOMO: More like the queen, D. Lemon, the queen. Look at you. Don't hurt yourself laughing at your own jokes, D. Lemon.

LEMON: Well, that would be better -- I mean, that would be better too. I mean, I feel the same way you feel, sorry.

CUOMO: You are something. Listen, I'm just saying, I'm not a royal person, I'm not an Anglophile but I do think he could learn something, and he seems to love them. I just wonder if it's the right reason.

LEMON: I feel the same way about royalty. Like, I don't get the whole thing. I'm not enamored with it. I don't get it. I did enjoy going to Meghan Markle's wedding. I thought that was -- or at least covering it being over there. It was interesting. But I get it.

I think it would be better, too, if he at least would show some dignity. He shows no dignity. He has no couth, he has no dignity, he has no class. Money does not buy class. If he did, he would not act the way he does. He would not -- he wouldn't be -- there wouldn't be a controversy about calling someone nasty.

People with dignity don't do that. People with class don't do that. You don't say, omit her comments. Still, don't do it. You're the president of the United States, you should be above that. You shouldn't be calling people, like the mayor of London, what did he say, a total loser or whatever. I did that -- actually, I didn't do that. I knew people around me who did it in grade school. So, I just think it's --


CUOMO: It's so unlike where he grew up too. I have to tell you.

LEMON: Really? CUOMO: We had A.G. Holder on, another Queens guy. Yes, they grew up

in --


LEMON: Do you think --

CUOMO: But it was -- it was Queens. And I have to tell you, I'm telling you, you did not run your mouth like that. If you were the big man, if you were proud of yourself, if you felt good about yourself, if you were confident, you never punched down. You never punch down. That's why I let you say whatever you want.

I'm not going to smack you around like I could because, you know, it's not what the bigger man does. He never acts like the bigger man. Don't tell me you're scrappy again.

LEMON: By the way, I'm not going to react to --


CUOMO: Don't react to because you're looking again --

LEMON: -- that you'd be looking for a reaction. I'm rubber and you're glue, I mean --

CUOMO: Whatever.

LEMON: You know what I'm saying.

CUOMO: What I'm saying is, he's going at the mayor of London. Why, why, why take that fight, you're president of the United States. One of you the most powerful man in the world.

LEMON: I don't even get it when he tweets about us. Like, why is he tweeting about us. Like, why would you, if I was president of the United States, I'd be like, who, that guy on CNN who has no fashion since in the toupee at 9 o'clock Eastern Time.

CUOMO: That's me you're talking about.

LEMON: Yes, exactly. I would be like, I don't care what he says about me. Who gives a crap? I'm president of the United States.

CUOMO: Chris Ruddy says that the president was standing next to the queen and start talking about coming on our somehow.

LEMON: yes, right next to the queen and he's like, go on the show. But then he disparages CNN because he gets there and he's like, wait a minute. He forgets the worldwide power of CNN, over 200 countries around the world, he likes to think that it's just like maybe the New York Post, which I'm not disparaging the New York Post, which is a local New York paper.

He like to -- he probably thinks it's an American institution and then all of a sudden, he gets out of America and he is reminded of the power and the presence of CNN all over the world and he can't stand it. It drives him crazy.

CUOMO: So much so that he calls for the boycott of a company. You know, we've not seen an American president do that before.


CUOMO: There are certain examples of people doing things in wartime, but not like this. John Kennedy, President Kennedy did cancel his subscription to a newspaper because he was pissed off at what they were saying about him.

LEMON: Come on.

CUOMO: But to boycott a company 268,000 people and they'll say he's just joking. When does the president have to be start being responsible for his own mouth, you know.

LEMON: Yes. Everyone is always making excuses for him. He didn't mean to say that. This is what it meant. They call it Trump-splaining. And we're going to talk about that a little bit more. Just good, old fashioned gaslighting. Thank you, my brother. I'll see you -- did you get your boat fixed?

CUOMO: Nope.

LEMON: Nope.

CUOMO: You love that, though, didn't you? D. Lemon --


LEMON: No, I felt bad for you.


CUOMO: Right be up by me being towed.

LEMON: Can I tell you -- can I them what happened? So, we're coming back this weekend, and I'm driving back with my fiance and the dogs and we're like, is that Chris and he's got Sito (Ph) is pulling them into the harbor.

CUOMO: They were great. Loved Sito. The guy was great. It was amazing how he throws my boat around like it was in his hip pocket. But man, that's --

LEMON: I haven't had to use them yet.

CUOMO: It's not the biggest man in the room I met. I thought my son was going to jump into your boat. He was like, Don.

LEMON: No, no. It happens. Listen, it happens. And you should --


CUOMO: Sucks when it's you. LEMON: I was not happy seeing that.

CUOMO: You were trying to be nice about it. You're like these are rich people problems.

LEMON: I can say that.


CUOMO: It feel a lot worse. It's not like I got cancer. This sucks right now. Anyway, do your show, pal.

LEMON: I'll see you later. Take it easy. Have a good night.

[22:05:00] This is CNN TONIGHT. I'm Don Lemon.

You know, for a president who would like to believe that he is royalty this trip has got to be right up his alley, the pomp, the pageantry, the president toasted by the queen herself.


QUEEN ELIZABETH II, QUEEN OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Ladies and gentlemen, I invite you all to rise and drink a toast to President and Mrs. Trump, to the continued friendship between our two nations and to the health, prosperity and happiness of the people of the United States.


LEMON: There may be no one this president would rather stand next to than the queen. He's been impressed by the British royals since he was six years old. In the "Art of the Deal," as a matter of fact, Donald Trump tells a story of his mother, his mother who was an immigrant from Scotland who worked as a housekeeper for a time, riveted by watching Queen Elizabeth's coronation on TV.

So, it's no surprise that the president would like to believe that he is a big hit on this trip in particular. Tweeting that. "There were tremendous crowds of well-wishers," and that he didn't see any protests. OK, there's a reason for that, because the streets were cleared by security before the Trump motorcade passed through.

But President Trump started his trip to the U.K. with insults. OK, in fact, before Air Force One even touched down the president tweeted an insult at London's mayor, calling Sadiq Khan a, quote, "stone cold loser" for being foolishly nasty to the visiting President of the United States.

And speaking of nasty, there's more. Listen to what the president told Rupert Murdoch Sun's newspaper about Meghan Markle, the Duchess of Sussex.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meghan, who's now the Duchess of Sussex -- DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, we've given her a different name. She can't make it because she's got maternity leave. Are you sorry to see her? Because she wasn't so nice about you during the campaign. I don't know if you saw that.

TRUMP: I didn't know that, no.


TRUMP: No, I didn't know that. No, I hope she's OK. I did not know that, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She said she'd move to Canada if you got elected. Turned out she moved to Britain.

TRUMP: Well, I think that, there are a lot of people moving here. So, what can I say? No, I didn't know that she was nasty.


LEMON: But you didn't hear him say that. The president would like you to believe that he didn't say what you heard him say about Meghan Markle, tweeting that "never called her nasty." He did. Putting his people out to make excuses and trying to rewrite history.

That should be no surprise if they're trying to gaslight you, after all, this is a president who told you this.


TRUMP: And just remember what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening.


LEMON: And the president isn't the only one, OK, trying to gaslight you. Trying to convince you to ignore what you've seen with your own eyes and what you've heard with your own ears. So, this is his son-in- law. I want you to listen to his son-in-law, also senior adviser as well, Jared Kushner in an interview with Axios.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez she calls, she has called President Trump a racist. Have you ever seen him say or do anything that you would describe as racist or bigoted?

JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRESIDENT TRUMP: So, the answer is, no, absolutely not, you can't not be a racist for 69 years and then run for president and then be a racist.

And what I'll say is that when a lot of the Democrats the president a racist I think they're doing a disservice to people who suffer because of real racists in this country. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was birtherism racist?

KUSHNER: Look, I wasn't really involved in that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you weren't. Was it racist?

KUSHNER: Like I said, I wasn't involved in that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you weren't. Was it racist?

KUSHNER: Look, I know who the president is and I have not seen anything in him that is racist. So, again, I was not involved in that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you wish he didn't do that?

KUSHNER: Like I said, I was not involved in that. That was a long time ago.


LEMON: Wow. That was a tap dance. I wasn't involved in that. Was birtherism racist? Of course, it was racist, Jared, you know it was, come on. It wasn't such a long time ago and, in fact, the president reportedly still believes the birther lie, behind closed doors, that's what we're told.

Now, let's never forget, this is a president who said this about deadly white supremacist violence in Charlottesville.


TRUMP: People that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group, excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures as you did.


LEMON: The president who doubled down on it again and again. This is a man who danced around the question of whether he disavowed David Duke, the former leader of the Ku Klux Klan.


[22:10:02] TRUMP: Well, just so you understand, I don't know what you think about David Duke, OK? I don't know anything about what you're even talking about with white supremacy or white supremacists.

So, I don't know. I mean, I don't know did he endorse me or what's going on? Because, you know, I know nothing about David Duke, I know nothing about white supremacists. So, you're asking me a question that I'm supposed to be talking about people that I know nothing about.

Honestly, I don't know David Duke. I believe I've never met him, I'm pretty sure I didn't meet him. And I just don't know anything about him.


LEMON: There is an interview from, I think it was NBC, years before where he talks about David Duke. But he doesn't know anything about him.

This is the president who called African nations shit hole countries, who called NFL players who kneeled to protest racial injustice sons of bitches. And I could go on and on, but I only have so much show.

Jared Kushner is trying to gaslight you, the president is trying to gaslight you. Remember when he told me this?


LEMON: Are you racist?

LEMON: I am the least racist person that you have ever met, I am the least racist person.

LEMON: Are you bigoted in any way?

TRUMP: I don't think so. No, I don't think so.


LEMON: That's what the president wants you to believe, he wants to gaslight you. He's trying his very best to gaslight you. Are you letting him get away with it? Are you going to believe him or are you going to believe what you have seen with your own eyes and what you have heard with your own ears? Gaslighting.

In the midst of all the royal pomp, circumstance, the president is really barging into British politics and breaking diplomatic norms and he's got another big day ahead of him. We're going to dig into that with Mehdi Hasan, Susan Glasser, and Michael D'Antonio, panel next.


LEMON: Well, President Trump just loves the royal pomp and pageantry of his visit to the U.K. specially sitting side by side with the royal family at tonight's state dinner.

But, you know, that's not stopping him from wading right into British politics lashing out to his critics. So, let's discuss now. Mehdi Hasan is here. He is a columnist for "The Intercept," also Susan Glasser, Michael D'Antonio. Michael is the author of "The Truth About Trump." So, and he joins us here in studio.

Good evening to every one of you. Michael, since you're here, I'm going to start with you. So, you know, we all witnessed the pomp and pageantry. Today we've seen when president goes over. And it's always pomp and pageantry.

You say that this could be one of the biggest moments for this president because sitting with the queen. Why is that so important to him? MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: It's the moment of his life. I

think he already has in his mind what the cover of People magazine is going to look like when it comes out. He's got all the photos laid out in his head.

LEMON: You see Mehdi, look, he's laughing. Wait, hold on, hold on, why are you laughing, Mehdi?

MEHDI HASAN, COLUMNIST, THE INTERCEPT: I'm laughing because Michael is right. I'm just wondering what the queen is thinking. I'm sure she's not laying out any photos from this trip, I can assure you.

D'ANTONIO: No, she's not.

LEMON: Go ahead, Michael. Sorry.

D'ANTONIO: Of course, she's not. But you know, one thing I do have empathy for the president on, is that his mother is not alive. This would have been a great thrill for her. And it's -- you know, her abject worship of the royal family was decidedly un-American and sort of un-Scottish.

She came from a community that was cleared during the 19th century, the poor people were driven off the land. They didn't have any fondness for the royals. But she was transfixed by this and it's a matter of style over substance. So, I also think the president probably saw the kind of life he wishes he had.

LEMON: The formality. And it's sort of -- you know --

D'ANTONIO: Look at the real estate they have. It's great real estate.

LEMON: And Mehdi, you've got, you know, you've got the inspection of the guards, bearskin hats, you got the state banquet, all the elaborate ceremony. And yet you have this president who is breaking diplomatic norms and inserting himself into U.K. politics.


LEMON: He criticized the existing -- the exiting, I should say, excuse me, Prime Minister Theresa May's handling of Brexit. He's due to meet with her tomorrow. He's praising her rival who is Boris Johnson. What do you make of this dichotomy?

HASAN: What I think is interesting is, do you remember in 2016, Don, when Barack Obama made some comments about Brexit, and Republicans they lost their minds. Paul Ryan attacked Obama for insulting an ally, he said we should stay out of it, we should support whatever the British government does.

And yet, you have Trump who has been pushing not just for Brexit over the last year or so, but for the most catastrophic and controversial form of Brexit, a no deal Brexit which the British government and the British Parliament has been trying to avoid largely.

And here he is a man knows nothing about the European Union, he couldn't name most of the countries in the European Union giving kind of trade advice, political advice to Theresa May, he's been encouraging Boris Johnson her rival for a long time.

Ironically, Don, Boris Johnson who now loves Donald Trump but he is called a British Trump, he used to attacked Donald Trump in the past too. He accused him of being ignorant. He accused him of playing the terrorist game. Not many people in the U.K. actually like Donald Trump, even the ones who pretend to like Donald Trump.

And then you have the mayor of London, a hero now, calling out Trump for the racism and fascism that you so rightly identified before the break.

LEMON: Yes. Well, there you go. And, listen, no matter who it is, the royals have a certain dignity and class about them. They're not going to be rude to a visiting dignitary.

But I do have to say, Susan, that during the queen's toast, if you listen closely, it sounded at times as if she was giving the president a mini history lesson about D-Day and what she's witnessed since then. Well, watch this and then we'll talk.


QUEEN ELIZABETH: After the shared sacrifices of the Second World War, Britain and the United States worked with other allies to build an assembly of international institutions to ensure that the horrors of conflict would never be repeated.

While the world has changed, we are forever mindful of the original purpose of these structures, nations working together to safeguard a hard-won peace.


LEMON: OK, so, Susan, Queen Elizabeth not particularly political, she is certainly diplomatic, was she sending a message to President Trump about the importance of institutions like NATO and the United Nations?

[22:20:03] SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Look, the queen gets to say whatever the queen wants to say. And that was deliberate, very purposeful. The language of this might be diplomatic but it was unmistakable.

If there is one thing that has united many Europeans, you don't agree on much these days, it is the idea the president of the United States has been essentially attacking America's alliances and its system of institutions that the United States itself built up in the wake of World War II.

You know, it's hard to say whether Trump listens and register a message like this. As you know he doesn't like to be lectured to.

I agree with Michael that this is the best day of Donald Trump's life. Right? So, if the price of admission for the Queen of England paying him the formalities of Buckingham Palace is a little blah, blah about the liberal international order, my guess is that, you know, he's OK with it or he doesn't even register it unless that becomes the dominant narrative.

You know, if the tabloids in Great Britain tomorrow, if they say all like, Queen disses Trump. You know, maybe he would pay attention. But it does seem to me that, you know, Donald Trump looked like a guy who, if he's made them upset, all the better.

He decided not to be on his best behavior today, he decided that he could come to London and insult the mayor of London while flying over there. He decided that he could continue tweeting while giving -- while being given a tour of Buckingham Palace and things like that.

So, my guess is, again, he doesn't really care if they like him or not. I think what he cares is that they're required to give him this state dinner.

LEMON: Yes. What would you want to say, Mehdi?

HASAN: I just want to say it's not just his, the best day of his life. He's taken four of his five kids with him.


HASAN: His four grifter kids with him to Buckingham Palace. They've been posting pictures all night on Twitter of themselves in their tails, et cetera. They're all loving it. This is a great moment for the whole grifter family.

LEMON: Yes. Wow. OK. So, listen, Michael, can we talk about some more about the optics of the state banquet. Right? Because the treasury secretary walked in beside princess. There it is. Kate Middleton. They're also seated next to each other. And then there is Jared Kushner next to Princess Ann. There all these interesting seat pairings. You heard what Mehdi just said, you know, the kids are there. What did you think?

D'ANTONIO: Well, I think the British all have stiff upper lips. So, they were enduring this. You have to remember this is a state dinner to which many people declined invitation. There are many members of parliament who refused to go and many other prominent British citizens who refused to go.

This is Britain holding its nose as it welcomes Donald Trump. Because they're stuck with this relationship. Trump has sort of triangulated them against Europe. He's assuming that Great Britain is going to side with America on everything. And if they're really are in a pickle here.

LEMON: So, Susan, let me ask you, are there parallels who that Britain is going through in the wake of the Brexit vote and the political dynamic here in the United States since Trump's election?

GLASSER: Well, look, I mean, one, of course strong message is political gridlock in both countries. He'll be meeting for the last time with British Prime Minister Theresa May. This is the final act of her very troubled prime ministership.

And you know, the reason is, is that she was unable to essentially bring Brexit to a conclusion and it's been three years since Britain voted this referendum. She's not had a mandate; she's not been able to command even her own Tory Party towards the deal that she negotiated with the European Union.

It's very reminiscent of Congress. We were just looking up just now at dinner tonight. Do you know the last time that the Congress of the United States passed all appropriations bills and did the job that it was elected to do in a timely fashion, it was in the 1990s, Don.

You know, this is a country whose government really doesn't work anymore and of course, President Trump has taken that and amplified it even more. He chose to shut down the government when Congress didn't do his bidding and he didn't have the votes to force his will upon it.

And so, I think you see rising disillusion with democracy on both sides of the Atlantic. You see governments are in gridlock and dysfunction. But I want to make. Michael's point I think is really important.

Britain even with the political divisions that are enormous in the wake of Brexit, Donald Trump is very unpopular even among those who supported Brexit. And I think that's a very interesting dynamic. Right now, almost in any country in Europe among our historical allies, the worst thing you can do is get an endorsement from Donald Trump.

LEMON: Thank you. I've got to go, Mehdi. I know you were like, let me get this point.

HASAN: He a 21 percent approval rating. It will kill him.

LEMON: Yes, 21 to Obama's 72 would say --


GLASSER: Nine percent in France.

LEMON: The tower of London. I'm sure he's not -- wasn't happy about it. There it is, 72 to 21. Thank you all.

HASAN: Thank you.

[22:24:58] LEMON: The president's son-in-law sitting down for a rare interview, was spending a lot of time dodging questions. Why he just refused to say that President Trump's birther lie is racist, which it is.


LEMON: White House senior adviser and son-in-law of the president, Jared Kushner sitting down for a rare interview, but repeatedly refusing to answer questions about whether President Trump's birther lie is racist. Here's what he said to Axios.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez says she calls -- she has called President Trump a racist. Have you ever seen him say or do anything that you would describe as racist or bigoted?

KUSHNER: So, the answer is, no, absolutely not, you can't not be a racist for 69 years and then run for president and then be a racist.

And what I'll say is that when a lot of the Democrats the president a racist, I think they're doing a disservice to people who suffer because of real racists in this country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was birtherism racist?

KUSHNER: Look, I wasn't really involved in that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you weren't. Was it racist?

KUSHNER: Like I said, I wasn't involved in that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you weren't.

[22:30:00] Was it racist?

JARED KUSHNER, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ADVISOR: Look. I know who the president is. And I have not seen anything in him that is racist. So again, I was not involved in that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you wish he didn't do that?

KUSHNER: Like I said, I was not involved in that. That was a long time ago.


LEMON: Let's discuss. Bakari Sellers, Scott Jennings, gentlemen, good evening, good to see both of you, it's been a long time, Bakari. Obviously, I've seen Scott a little bit. I haven't seen you, though. Good to have you on. So listen, Bakari. Jared Kushner refused to answer whether the birtherism thing, hoax, whatever you want to call it, conspiracy theory, was racist or not. He dodges it four times at least in that interview. What's your reaction?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean I -- we all know, first and foremost, that birtherism was racist. It is racist. I think that the president of the United States has yet to denounce that or apologize for those views. The first lady of the United States has yet to denounce that or apologize for those views. And Jared Kushner showed that lack of courage that even saying that he disagreed on that issue, does exemplify what many people expected of him.

I will say, though, that I haven't Jared Kushner talk a whole lot. And listening to that interview, you almost forget how mediocre he really is. I know that he's in charge of the liaison to Muslim- Americans. He's the liaison to China, the liaison to Mexico. He's supposed to be over the peace deal. He's over the opioid epidemic. He's also over restructuring and making government more efficient.

But with that portfolio, you cannot see many successes from Jared Kushner. And I think that it's not Jared's fault as much as it is for the people who allowed him to sit down for that interview. I think even Scott would agree that that was not a good look for Jared Kushner or his PR people.

LEMON: Scott, I want to bring you in. And you can answer that, but I mean he keeps repeating that he wasn't involved, which has nothing to do with whether birtherism is racist or not. Did that just add to how awkward the whole interview was? What did you think?

SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, look. I think to expect a senior adviser to the president, who is also a relative, to go on television and call his father-in-law or his boss a racist is not a realistic expectation. I wouldn't expect Jared Kushner to do that. I am sure he's thinking what the rest of us are thinking, though.

And, of course, it was wrong. Look, birtherism was this crazy conspiracy theory that was hatched after Barack Obama became the president. And it infected all these people. And it went on and on and on. And it was embarrassing. It was terrible. It was wrong. And Donald Trump was wrong for swimming around in what was a pretty scummy pond.

Now, in the campaign, in September of 2016, he did recant on that and admit that Barack Obama was, in fact, an American citizen. And that was good. But it was a terrible time. It was a terrible time for the Republican Party. And I think, frankly, this whole thing cost us a chance to beat Barack Obama in 2012, because we didn't seem like serious people who were trafficking in serious ideas when we were out running around, claiming...


LEMON: OK, Scott, two things...

JENNINGS: My view is he can't say it, but I can. It was wrong, and I am glad the president recanted.


LEMON: Was it racist?

JENNINGS: Yes, it is racist.


JENNINGS: -- any kind of facts or whatever. It was a terrible moment for us, and I am glad it's over.

LEMON: But isn't that the problem, though, when people say, well, I can't believe he's appointing his daughter to this and son-in-law to that. Isn't that the problem with nepotism, is that you don't expect him to be able to come on television as the senior adviser to the president of the United States and be honest with people about aspects of this administration and his boss who he is an adviser to?

JENNINGS: Look, I feel the same way about him that I felt when we used to go around and around about why doesn't Sarah Sanders say this, that or the other. Look, to expect a White House official to go on television and trash their boss, the president of the United States, is not a realistic expectation.


LEMON: Answering the question honestly is trashing?


JENNINGS: And by the way, Bakari failed to mention criminal justice reform, which he did oversee, which has impacted the lives of a lot of African-Americans in this country. And that is a great feather in the cap for this president and this administration.


LEMON: But, Scott, I don't understand how being honest about an aspect of someone is trashing them. Telling the truth about what someone did is trashing them.


JENNINGS: I am just saying to expect a White House spokesperson to come on and say something that you and I and Bakari know is going to enrage the president, that's not going to happen. And I think it's not a realistic expectation of our modern political system.

LEMON: All right. Go ahead, Bakari. Did you want to say something?

SELLERS: No. I think you made a valid point, though, Don. And yes, I did overlook the criminal justice reform, which was a part of the portfolio that he oversaw. And we have seen modest improvements. We have (Inaudible) but we have seen some modest improvements. And so Jared was a part of that. It doesn't discount the fact that he was a part of six or seven other failures or failures to launch for other policy initiatives.

But I mean listen, the fact is Jared didn't have any experience. And he should not be in that position as senior advisor. The only reason that he is, is because he's married to the president's daughter. He's the president's son-in-law. We all know that. And that type of nepotism, as you've outlined, is the reason that people have an issue with this.

[22:35:02] Because if you cannot be honest with the American people about the fact that something that Scott and I and you and everyone watching can agree is racist, then how do we expect you to be honest about any other policy initiatives. And I go back to this. I mean we see this day in and day out. People experience this in their lives all the time.

Jared Kushner exemplifies what happens when mediocrity just gets a pass. And in this, it gets a pass because of nepotism. That's simply not right. But that -- Jared Kushner, at the end of the day, is probably not in the top 10 issues that we have with this White House to say the least.

LEMON: All right. Thank you, both. I appreciate it, fascinating conversation. We'll see you both soon. Some of the biggest tech companies around are going to be investigated by Congress, companies like Google, Apple, Amazon, and Facebook. Why some are saying the internet is broken.


LEMON: The House Judiciary Committee says tonight it is launching an antitrust investigation of tech giants, including Amazon, Apple, Facebook, and Google. Those are the big ones, right? Is the Internet broken? Let's discuss now. Elie Honig is here, as well as Elizabeth Dwoskin. It's so good to have both of you on. Good evening. Elizabeth, let's start with you.

The House Judiciary Committee says that it's going to be a "top to bottom antitrust investigation" involving all of the big tech companies, Amazon, Apple, Facebook, Google. How big of a deal is this?

ELIZABETH DWOSKIN, CORRESPONDENT, WASHINGTON POST SILICON VALLEY: I think it's a fascinating moment of political reckoning. I mean the Trump administration and the Democrats in Congress, you know, when was the last time they agreed on anything? But you have a bipartisan group of lawmakers in the House coming together and saying that the internet companies have gotten too big, that they stifle competition, that they hurt consumers.

And now we're going to see months and months of sprawling hearings. You know, airing their dirty laundry. And at the same time, this weekend, we see that the Trump administration is also potentially planning probes, divvying up the tech companies to plan potential antitrust probes into their business practices as well.

LEMON: Interesting. Elie, I wish that they could just get together and get rid of the trolls on the internet, but that's whole other show.

DWOSKIN: Impossible, impossible.

LEMON: Yeah, right? If it is ultimately determined that there are antitrust issues here for these companies because Congress lacks the power to break up big tech companies or levy fines, so then what happens here?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: This could be really big trouble for these companies. It's really the first legal existential threat that these massive tech companies have faced. Now, each entity has different powers. The Department of Justice can seek antitrust penalties, damages, financial penalties, and more extreme cases can seek to break up the company as they did with Microsoft back about 20 years ago. The FTC can levy fines and penalties. Now, Congress has a little bit

of a different set of tools that may even be more problematic in some ways. Two big things Congress can do, one, they can hold public hearings. And that's when you start to see the CEOs dragged in front of the cameras. And those tend to not go so well for the CEOs, as we've seen in the past.

Those hearings will be blockbuster. They will be very visible. The other thing is Congress can pass new laws, our antitrust laws date back to the 1800s, early 1900s.

LEMON: So there are some teeth here.

HONIG: Yeah.


HONIG: These are put in place when the big industries were steel and oil. Different world now, the laws need to be updated.

LEMON: All right. Elizabeth, Congressman David Cicilline says that the focus isn't on any one tech company but on the broader belief that "the internet is broken." Frankly, a lot of people are starting to agree with that.

DWOSKIN: Well, I think what's actually fascinating, though, is to look at the arguments against the different companies. Because in different ways, where they're each a giant piece of the internet, Amazon has shopping, Google has search. Facebook has social networking. And if you look at that, you know, in my eyes, the strongest case actually maybe against Google, where it's the weakest legal case may be against Facebook.

But they also have the biggest PR problem. You know, I don't -- I can't think of any other situation where the co-founder of company is actually calling to break up the company, saying that they have too much power, as a Facebook co-founder did last month. But you look at Google and, you know, they control search. And they've been sued successfully several times in the E.U., saying that they've favored their products in search over rival products.

You can look at android and say they favored Google apps. And these are apps consumers love, like Google Maps and Chrome. But they're going to smart phone makers and they're saying if you want the android operating system, you better bundle in our apps, which is a very similar argument that Microsoft made back in the 90s as well.

Then you look at a company like Facebook, and you say well why have they been able to run rough shod over our data. And there that plays into antitrust too, because you say well, maybe they couldn't do that if they didn't have so much market power.

LEMON: Yeah. It's interesting, though, when you think about, just as an aside, this weekend I think Google was down, right, and then...

HONIG: Horror of horrors. LEMON: Tim (Inaudible)...


LEMON: Can you get on your email? I can't get into Instagram. And you forget how they're all connected. And if one thing goes down, you know, it all does. Do we have time to get to this soundbite? I want to get to the -- we don't, OK. Sorry. How long can this investigation take?

HONIG: An eternity. Microsoft took 12 years. This could be the beginning of a very, very long legal and political battle.

LEMON: All right. Thank you all, fascinating. We'll get you back to update when it's appropriate. Thank you so much. More than 20 Democrats are running for president, and one of them is joining me to unveil his plan to help the divide between some police and the communities they serve. Julian Castro is next.


LEMON: It's a really crowded 2020 field. And we're learning more about Democratic president candidates and where they stand on the issues. Julian Castro is announcing his ambitious plan to heal the divide between some police and the communities they serve. And Julian Castro is kind enough to join me here in New York in the studio to talk to us about that.

Good evening. Good to see you again.


LEMON: How's the trail? You OK?

CASTRO: Going great, yeah.


LEMON: You unveiled your plan today. Tell us about it.

CASTRO: Well, you know my vision for the future of our country is that in this 21st century, we should aim to be the smartest, the healthiest, the fairest, and the most prosperous nation on Earth. And what I released today was what I call people first police reform plan. That strikes at how we can become a fairer nation. I don't care who you are in this country.

[22:50:03] You've seen these videos over and over and over again of police officers who have used excessive force, disproportionally especially against young black men. And places like New York City that we're in tonight have quite a history. Eric Garner is a great example of that. And last year alone in 2018, this city paid out $108 million to settle claims of police misconduct.

A lot of that related to excessive force. So this is -- the point I am make is that even though we have some great police officers out there, and I know that because I served as Mayor of San Antonio, this is not a case of just a few bad apples. The system is broken.

And this plan is about fixing it. It goes to ending over aggressive policing, increasing accountability for police officers police departments, and also trying to mend the divide that often exists between some neighborhoods and communities and the police.

LEMON: I want to play this for -- this is from -- this is Saturday at The big idea is from -- this is you. Watch this.


CASTRO: What about Eric Garner? And what about Philando Castile? And what about Pamela Turner? And what about Jason Pero? And what about Tamir Rice? And what about Laquan McDonald? And what about so many others? What about Stephon Clark? And what about Antonio (Inaudible)? What about all of those young men and women whose lives were lost because of police violence?


LEMON: You can go on and on. I had Sandra Bland's sister on just a couple weeks ago. But you got a standing ovation, as you read those things, well known black victims. Why do you think you got a response like that?

CASTRO: Well, you know, I'm going to call out your audio clipper a little bit. Because the first part of that clip, Don, actually I pointed out that a few weeks ago I was in Charleston, South Carolina, a couple of blocks away from the (Inaudible) church where Dylan Roof, who was white, went in, in 2015 and he murdered nine people while they were worshipping.

And then a few hours later, he was apprehended by the police without incident. And I said he should be apprehended without incident. But then what about Eric Garner and Philando Castile and, you know, Jason Pero and Stephon Clark and Antonio (Inaudible) so many people who have been treated differently and disproportionately young black men?

LEMON: This is one of the issues that are going to be big issue this time around. It was last time (Inaudible) I have a feeling it's going to be even more this time. So I thank you for talking to us about that. Now, let's talk about some other things in the news. I want to talk about the president and the tariffs that he is threatening on all imports from China as punishment from Mexico allowing too many illegal immigrants, he says, to head to the U.S. border. What will tariffs actually accomplish?

CASTRO: Well, first of all, this is a stupid idea. This is grade-a dumb in terms of ideas. It's not connected to trying to get Mexico to do anything. I think we can do this in a better way. It's already estimated that this 5 percent tariff to begin with that he wants to impose on Mexico would cost 400,000 jobs nationwide. And 100,000 of those would be in my home state of Texas. And so, you know, this is the worst possible way to try and go about

partnering with Mexico to get them to do anything. In fact, this is going to hurt the United States.

LEMON: Well, the criticism -- it is self defeating and it's counterintuitive because there will be less goods that will be made or brought from Mexico, that it'll hurt Mexican economy. Also it's going to hurt the U.S. economy, because Americans will have to pay more for those goods. And if the economy gets worse in Mexico, that's an -- that incentivizes Mexicans to possibly come across the border and do it illegally, is that...

CASTRO: Yeah. I mean I think one of the reasons that today versus 20 years ago, you see less Mexicans coming across the border, is because they're able to find more opportunity there than they used to. This is kind -- this is very much going against that. But I would say that we got to get beyond this reactionary approach to immigration.

A couple months ago, I presented an immigration plan that actually says look. If you notice this guy, Trump, has been a total disaster when it comes to immigration. A year ago, he said that if we were just cruel enough to separate little children from their mothers that would deter more families from coming from Central America.

And instead today, more families are actually coming. It is -- the situation is worse now than when he took over the presidency in 2017. So I've said instead let's actually get at the root cause of this. Let's invest in a 21st century marshal plan in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala, and these northern triangle countries.

Work with Mexico to do that so that people can find safety and opportunity there instead of having to come to the United States.

[22:55:03] LEMON: Yeah. Always a pleasure to see you, keep talking issues.


LEMON: It's important to our Democratic system. And we want to hear issues, issues, issues. Thank you so much. Thank you.

CASTRO: Good to be with you.

LEMON: Good to see you. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi talking about impeachment behind closed doors. Well, we're going to tell you what she is saying now.


LEMON: This is CNN TONIGHT. I am Don Lemon. President Trump is in the U.K. tonight on a state visit.