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ICE Director on Border with Mexico; Researchers Combat Deepfakes Ahead of Election; Israeli Prime Minister's Wife Accepts Plea Deal. Aired 9:30-10a ET

Aired June 12, 2019 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:26] POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, so Mexico says it is now considering a U.S. proposal to try to help ease the situation at the southern border.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: According to Mexico's foreign minister, if illegal immigration to the U.S. is not reduced within 45 days, it could require asylum seekers to make their case for American asylum while remaining in Mexico.

Joining us now to discuss this and the broader issues is Mark Morgan, he's acting director for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

Director Morgan, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.

MARK MORGAN, ACTING DIRECTOR, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: You bet.

SCIUTTO: So first I want to start with that the president claimed -- claiming that there's more to this deal than Americans don't know about. He held up that now famous piece of paper yesterday. What is new in -- in this deal, one, that we don't know about and that Mexico did not offer in prior negotiations?

MORGAN: Well, first, I -- I'm not -- I'm not going to discuss what the president has -- the discussions he's had with -- with the government of Mexico or -- or part of his administration. But -- but what I can tell you is, is that Mexico, for the -- for the first time, has really agreed to step up and do what we've asked them to do and what they need to do to be true partners.

There have been discussions with Mexico for a very long time. In 2014, when this crisis started, we've been trying to get Mexico to step up and do what they should. And they've done a few things here or there, but to a large degree they -- they've remained on the sidelines. This is the first time, with this commitment, they've really joined us as true partners if they carry through what they've agreed upon.

HARLOW: So, Director Morgan, I'd like to spend a little bit of time talking about solutions to this, to the root cause, because we know that the largest group of migrants who have been crossing over the southern border are from Central America, those northern triangle countries. You testified before the senate Homeland Security Committee back in

2016 and you said, quote, there are definite push factors, weak economies, weak government, violence, family reunification and economic quality. So you point to the economy as a big driver of those people to the United States. But as you know, just a few months ago, the Trump administration cut all economic aid to the northern triangle countries. And I just wonder if you're worried that that is going to make the situation worse and if that has exacerbated the -- the crisis.

MORGAN: So, from a law enforcement perspective, if you look at that, with the information intelligence shows that they are coming here largely for economic equality and then to some degree for family reunification. And what we've shown, regardless of what's happening or not in the northern triangle countries, the numbers continue to exceed. And they really continue to exceed because of the incentives.

Right now -- and the cartels are making sure that -- that everyone in the northern triangle countries know, if you grab a child and you come to our borders, you will be allowed into the United States, and largely to remain there untouched. They know that. That's what's driving them to come, the overwhelming. But right now 75 percent -- up to 75 percent of the people coming across are family units or unaccompanied children.

HARLOW: Except -- so I -- I hear you. But when you talk about sort of what the data shows, our colleague, Jake Tapper, reported just a few months ago, based on State Department data, that in El Salvador, for example, because of the aid you had the violence go down, the homicides go down. The Global Leadership Coalition, which is retired military leaders and diplomats and members of Congress say that not only did the aid work, but it delivered a return on investment for the American taxpayer.

Would more economic aid to the northern triangle countries be helpful to you?

MORGAN: For -- from my perspective, of course. Just like the governor of Mexico, even though the governor of Mexico, for decades, has refused to step up and do what they said, we still continue to work with them. And we should still continue to work with the -- the governments of the northern triangle countries to help them in any way they can. Absolutely.

But that's not going to address the pull factors that our broken asylum laws are really largely responsible for these individuals coming to our country. It's our own laws that are producing the incentives and pull factors to come.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, because you, in your capacity at ICE, you work with your Mexican partners on this, right? I mean we are neighbors and allies, both in terms of security issues and economic issues. What's been unusual about the president's approach, and he's used this against other allies as well, is using an economic cajole, in effect, tariffs on a security issue, even with -- even with allies. And I wonder, from your perspective, is that an acceptable tactic here to in effect say, we're going to squeeze you economically, trading partner, ally and security partner, Mexico, economically, if you don't deal with us on this issue?

[09:35:03] MORGAN: So I think that's a fair question. But, again, I'm not an economist. I'm a law enforcement professional. So when I look at that, from that perspective, all is I can tell you is, honestly, is, we've been working with the government of Mexico for a very long time. We've given them very explicit things, what they needed to do. They needed to secure their southern border. They needed to increase interior enforcement and join us as partners in the asylum process. They've refused to do so. And all is I can tell you is, after the threat of the tariffs, they came to the table and now they're saying they want to be our partners and do what we've been asking them to do. So, from a law enforcement perspective, that's all I can tell you.

HARLOW: So let's talk about the inspector general report, the DHS inspector general report, out in just the past few days that found dangerous overcrowding, unsanitary conditions at that El Paso detention facility, El Norti (ph). Some 900 migrants were found in an area with capacity for 125, some of them were standing on toilets. And I know that you have been asking Congress, the Democratic-led House, to approve $4.5 billion in additional funding for housing. They haven't moved on that. I get that.

But when you read this report and you saw what was happening in your facilities, what was your reaction and what are you doing to stop it?

MORGAN: Well, first of all, so -- so that report dated back to some of those issues back in 2018.

But to answer your question first directly as -- I welcome that report. I -- I appreciate the IG and what they're doing as an oversight function. We should encourage that. We want that full transparency. And -- and what I'm getting briefed on that already, of all of the issues that came into play and the corrective actions that we're taking, we -- we strive to get better every day with those facilities. That's our goal. And I -- I welcome more oversight. I -- I welcome more transparency. And we're going to continue to try to get better in all aspects of our detention facilities.

SCIUTTO: Director Morgan, before we let you go, "Axios" is reporting this morning, and they've obtained e-mails from you from January 2017, at the time when -- when you were initially fired from a position by the Trump administration, where you say, and I'm going to quote the e- mails, and I believe we can put them up on screen, you say, I'm being removed in the name of politics and politics at its worst. I will not have them believe I willingly left under these circumstances. This is wrong on many levels, you say in another -- in another e-mail.

I want to ask you, do you believe that politics at its worst is still in play in the administration's approach to these issues?

MORGAN: What I'll say is, I am privileged and honored to -- to be here as the acting ICE director and serve the women -- men and women of this great agency and enforce the law and -- and provide another avenue to safeguard this country. Absolutely. HARLOW: Director Morgan, we appreciate you coming on. This is an issue

we cover daily. And we'd like you to join us again. Thanks for the time.

MORGAN: Thank you.

HARLOW: 2020 candidates are the target of these new really disturbing deepfake videos. Look at that. Can you tell which one is real and which one is fake? We have an exclusive look at the technology that makes these fake videos look so incredibly real. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:42:28] SCIUTTO: Now, a CNN exclusive and an important one because this is going to become a real problem. There is new digital technology, a threat, that could create new challenges for 2020 contenders. They are called deepfake videos. It's a sophisticated technology that makes it easy to take a video of someone, say a presidential candidate, and manipulate their faces to make them say anything. Now, obviously, you look at this video here on the right side of the screen, that's Larry David playing Bernie Sanders. But what they try to do here is, in effect, overlay the fake comments over the real video to make it look like it actually happened.

HARLOW: So, how do you fight this? Researchers are racing to do just that ahead of the 2020 election.

CNN business reporter Donie O'Sullivan is with us.

Now, this is such great reporting you've done. Walk us through it.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: That's right. FaceBook and Silicon Valley, Congress, are all trying to get ahead of this problem. We met a team in California who are working to build a system that could detect deepfakes of 2020 candidates. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're going to Mexico. They're going to many other countries.

O'SULLIVAN (voice over): Here's President Trump.

ALEC BALDWIN, ACTOR: They took my microphone to Kenya and they broke it and now it's broken.

O'SULLIVAN: And Alec Baldwin's impression of him from "Saturday Night Live."

But now take a look and listen at this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you hear that? It's picking up somebody's sniffing here.

O'SULLIVAN: That's not really President Trump. It's just his face mapped on top of Baldwin's. Researchers at USC created this clip and many others of prominent politicians, showing just how easily viewers could be tricked.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen, America, Donald Trump cannot be president.

O'SULLIVAN: Videos like this are known as deepfakes, a new, sophisticated way to create fake videos using artificial intelligence. And their potential damage is catching attention on Capitol Hill. While some technology experts say the trick (ph) is exaggerated, it's very real for lawmakers like House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff.

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): It's a race between the AI to create them and the AI to detect them.

O'SULLIVAN: His committee is scheduled to hold a hearing tomorrow discussing national security challenges of artificial intelligence, manipulated media and deep fakes.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Sort of visuals that obviously were planned.

O'SULLIVAN: Highlighting this altered video of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. It's not an example of a deepfake, but was edited to make it look like she's slurring her words.

SCHIFF: It would be very easy to introduce a doctored video that could have a very sizable impact anonymously at various places around the globe at one time. And whoever introduced it would always have some level of plausible deniability.

[09:45:03] O'SULLIVAN: Other technology experts agree.

HANY FARID, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA BERKELEY: We are going to get to a point at some point in the near future where you are not going to visually be able to distinguish between the two. And we sort of want to get out ahead of this before we get to that point.

O'SULLIVAN: Hany Farid's team at UC-Berkeley studied hours of footage of political figures and 2020 presidential candidate's movements when they talk, constructing a system called fingerprinting, aiming to help the government and news organization separate the real from the unreal.

FARID: By the end of '19 and the lead-up to the Iowa caucuses and the New Hampshire primaries is that we will have most, if not all of the candidates fingerprinted.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'SULLIVAN: So, as you can see there, the intelligence community has warned Congress, has told folks that, you know, these deepfakes could be used in future disinformation campaigns. In 2016 we were all caught by surprise with bots, Russian trolls, misinformation. These researchers are trying to prevent a repeat of that with this new technology.

HARLOW: Could be so much worse. SCIUTTO: It's huge. I mean the implications, you could imagine, first of all, on the one hand, people could just make stuff up. On the other hand, real stuff folks could say, and you can imagine the president doing this, well, that's a deepfake. I didn't actually say that.

Now, let's get to the technology companies' involvement and response here. So FaceBook refused to remove that doctored Nancy Pelosi video last month. What are they doing to get ahead of the deepfake problem, if anything, and are they on top of this?

HARLOW: Well, and that Zuckerberg video, right?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

O'SULLIVAN: Yes. So just last night it emerged that there is now a deepfake of Mark Zuckerberg saying pretty -- appearing to say pretty incriminating stuff. He, of course, didn't say it. It is a deepfake. It was posted on Instagram. And you can see it here where they've actually -- it's what they've done here is they've taken control of his mouth basically, to make him look like he's saying something.

HARLOW: Can we listen? Guys, can we listen to this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoever controls the data controls the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: It looks pretty real. It looks pretty real.

O'SULLIVAN: So that's a voice actor combined with this sensitized mouth.

FaceBook tells us that they are not removing that video, just like they didn't remove the Nancy Pelosi video.

SCIUTTO: Why?

O'SULLIVAN: They say that they -- they will mark it as false if there are third party fact checkers say it is false. They -- I think FaceBook's in a difficult position where they say they don't want to be the arbitrators of truth --

HARLOW: OK.

O'SULLIVAN: But they do have a responsibility running this platform where people are sharing this content.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: They -- they built the platform. They want to provide news and yet this -- then you have to take responsibility for what you build.

O'SULLIVAN: Absolutely. So, as you can see, this is going to be something that's really -- HARLOW: Sure.

O'SULLIVAN: They're going to have to think a lot about in the run-up to 2020 especially.

SCIUTTO: Congress may have to act. Imagine that.

Donie, thanks very much.

HARLOW: Thanks for reporting. Thanks for coming on the show.

SCIUTTO: Strong words from the House Intelligence chairman over the Mueller report. A live hearing on The Hill right now, that's coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:52:17] HARLOW: This just in to CNN.

Right now, that is the House Intelligence Committee. You see Congressman Quigley there of Illinois holding an opening hearing to discuss the counterintelligence implications of Volume One of the Mueller report. The House Intel chair, Adam Schiff, began the hearing, noting that the Mueller report does not contain a finding of no collusion or no obstruction. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): For those who have not yet read the Mueller report, and most have not, they might be astonished to learn that a finding of no collusion, much less a finding of no obstruction, is nowhere to be seen on any page or in any passage of the Mueller report.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: According to the committee, the hearing will focus on understanding the threats facing the U.S. Democratic system. It will also address possible fixes that could be implemented by Congress and the president. Keep in mind, Russia attacked in 2018. They'll do it again in 2020. It's a real threat. We're going to keep you posted on any news as it happens.

HARLOW: Also, this development just in. Sarah Netanyahu, that is the wife of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, has accepted a plea deal for illegally using state funds to pay for catered meal delivered to their home.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Oren Liebermann is live in Jerusalem with the details.

So what's key here is, of course, Sarah Netanyahu, but also crucially her husband, the sitting prime minister, both face legal challenges here. He couldn't form a government. How does this affect the broader effort to form a government and are they trying to put some of the legal stuff behind them? OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sarah Netanyahu's case is

just one part of a much bigger case and series of cases hanging over the Netanyahu family. Sarah Netanyahu pled guilty of ordering some $50,000 of meals over a period of time here, along with the official manager of the prime minister's residence, of catered meals to the prime minister's residence. That's illegal in Israel when there is a chef employed at the prime minister's residence, which there was, according to an updated indictment filed in court today.

Sarah Netanyahu was initially charged with fraud one year ago in this case, known as the catered meals affair or the ordered meal affair here. Instead, she will plead guilty to a lesser charge of taking unfair advantage of a mistake and she'll pay back some $15,000. Most of that will go to the state, paying back what was taxpayer dollars in this case, and some of that is a punitive fee.

But it comes at a time when there's much larger corruption investigations facing her husband, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. The attorney general here, an appointee of Benjamin Netanyahu, has said he intends to indict the prime minister on charges of bribery and breach of trust in three separate investigations. The first pre-indictment hearing, which was supposed to take place sometime this summer, was delayed. It will now take place in early October when Netanyahu's high-powered legal team will try to essentially change these cases or see if he can get some of these thrown away.

[09:55:00] The bigger issue here, Jim and Poppy, is that if Netanyahu can form a government quickly, he can pass an immunity law, which effectively shields him from indictment. And that is the much bigger question as he faces charges of bribery and breach of trust. Of course, now we know that the wife and the case she was facing, Sarah Netanyahu, has pled guilty to a lesser charge, but still a blow to the Netanyahu family here.

SCIUTTO: So you pass a law to protect himself from prosecution. That's pretty remarkable.

HARLOW: I didn't know that. Thank you, Oren. Appreciate it.

Moments from now, a crucial vote in the House. Will a second House committee hold the attorney general in contempt? That's next for us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END