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Robert Mueller Agrees To Testify Publicly July 17; House Passes Border Aid Bill 230 To 195; Photos Of Dead Father & Toddler Show Realities At Border. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired June 25, 2019 - 21:00   ET


[21:00:00] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE TODD WHITMAN, FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY: --going to accept on climate, on - on environment overall because it's making us less healthy--


WHITMAN: --if he is threatening our health.

COOPER: Governor, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

WHITMAN: My pleasure.


COOPER: Governor Christine Todd Whitman.

Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, Anderson. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.

2020 Democrats are on the cusp of their first major test. And there is one candidate who does have a big advantage going into the first debate. We're going to take it all on in our Prime Time Primary tonight.

This is one night that could change the race. So, let's bring back our Wizard of Odds, O-D-D-S, not O-Z. That would make me Dorothy, which is a dream, but not tonight. The breakdown of who's best positioned to surge?

And this is the reality of the Border, not politics, not Right, not Left, it is right and wrong, and even death. A father and his two-year old daughter died trying to cross into the United States. The little girl died hugging her father.

The House says it finally has a deal that has been delayed for months. Are we done hiding for the reality? Will this pass on our watch?

Hopefully, it's a big night. Let's get after it.



CUOMO: All right, so the two most far-Left candidates in this 2020 race won't share the debate stage tomorrow. But Senators Sanders and Warren do share a goal tomorrow, and Thursday, "Crush Joe Biden."

But how far is too far-Left? That's going to be a big question. Let's get our Prime Time Primary debate underway with Sanders Campaign Co- Chair Nina Turner--




CUOMO: --and former DNC Chair, Ed Rendell, who supports the former VP, Biden. It's good to have you both. Ed, it's good to have you on the show.


CUOMO: Nina, you've been on before. That's why I didn't put it that way. Don't think it's about unfair advantage, and I start with you. Tomorrow night, what do you believe the task is for Bernie Sanders? When he's on the debate stage, what do you think will separate him?

NINA TURNER, SANDERS CAMPAIGN CO-CHAIR: To make it very clear that he is the visionary and the champion for the people, that he has the courage, the wisdom, and the hutzpah to get it done, and that for him, saving the American people, the workaday people of this nation that there is not a middle ground for that, and that he clearly is the one that consistently, from 2016 to this very moment, has been durable in the polls, in terms of being able to go head-to-head with President Trump, and beat him. Vision, courage, and he can beat President Trump.

CUOMO: The center is nowhere. That is the argument you hear from Warren and Sanders. What is the counter that we need to hear from Biden for him to be successful, Ed?

RENDELL: Well I don't think Joe will make this a part of the debate. But clearly, 70 percent of Democrats are either moderate or slightly Left of center.

We're not a progressive party. We're certainly not a socialist party. But Joe Biden has to answer questions, not just deflect criticism. He's got to turn that criticism into positives.

So, if he's asked about the Green New Deal, he says the - the - the - the - the things that the Green New Deal wants to accomplish are all laudable, but we've got to look at whether we can do it, and we can't lie to the American people, but we can do this, this, and this. He's got to propose solutions and turn the criticism around. CUOMO: This matters. But I have news that both of you are going to care about even more than this. Hold on for a second. Let's bring in Manu Raju. He's over on Capitol Hill.




CUOMO: We have word out of the House Judiciary Committee of a major move to get more disclosure from the Mueller probe, concerning Mr. Mueller himself.

Manu, thank you for - brother, for being on quick watch like this. What have we learned?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Major news here, involving Robert Mueller, the Special Counsel, and efforts to get him to testify, on Capitol Hill.

Just moments ago, the House Intelligence Committee and the House Judiciary Committee announced they have agreed - the Special Counsel's agreed to appear in public on July 17th in an open session to testify about what he found.

It was a part of his two-year investigation into Russian interference as well as potential obstruction of justice in the White House.

Now, they say in this letter, both the Chairman of this Committee, of the House Judiciary Committee, Jerry Nadler, and the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff that they actually have subpoenaed Bob Mueller, and that he has agreed to testify under subpoena.

Now what they say in this letter, Chris, is that they - is that they understand - this is a letter that they wrote to the Special Counsel saying that we understand - further understand there are certain sensitivities associated with your open testimony, and they're talking about particular several criminal investigations that are ongoing, and there are certain things that he will not say in these - of course, Mueller has said publicly that he says his work speaks for itself, and does not want to speak about this further.

But they say this. "Nevertheless, the American public deserves to hear directly from you about your investigation and conclusions. We will work with you to address legitimate concerns about preserving the integrity of your work. We expect that you will appear before our Committees, as scheduled."

[21:05:00] So, they have agreed - they say Mueller has agreed to a July 17th hearing--


RAJU: --in an open session. And we know, Chris, that the Mueller team has fought this idea of coming in public.


RAJU: Mueller has wanted to go behind closed doors. But now, the Democrats have said, "This is it." July 17th, mark your calendars, a huge day in this investigation. We'll see what Robert Mueller ultimately reveals on Capitol Hill, Chris.

CUOMO: I think we have learned that behind closed doors does not resonate with the American people. The trust just isn't there. When it comes to Bob Mueller, he is the man that people need to hear from most.

So, just so we're clear, they subpoenaed him. It seemed to push the process. He in return agreed he will not fight the subpoena.

RAJU: Yes. That's exactly what it seems like. There's been discussions about what - what - under what conditions would he appear. They've discussed all sorts of possibilities.


RAJU: He would go behind closed doors for part of it, maybe just deliver an open save - an opening statement publicly, and answer questions behind closed doors. Democrats did not want to go for that.

So, it appears what they call a friendly subpoena, issuing a subpoena to compel his testimony, that's the only way he would agree. And we'll see, Chris, too, if the White House takes any steps to prevent what Mueller can say before this Committee, as they've done with other people who have testified.

CUOMO: I don't think they have the same reach.

RAJU: They - they - they may not.

CUOMO: He - he had no connection to the White House.

RAJU: May not.

CUOMO: You know, here is the big factor though, Manu, to - to your question, which is an intelligent one. Is Bob Mueller still working for the Department of Justice right now?

RAJU: He's not. He's - he's not. He's no longer an employee--

CUOMO: So he is gone?

RAJU: --of the Justice Department.

CUOMO: A 100 percent gone?

RAJU: Yes, from what--

CUOMO: There are - there are no tentacles on him because that's--

RAJU: Not--

CUOMO: --that's big.

RAJU: That is big. And, look, the - we have seen what they have done to other former officials--

CUOMO: Right.

RAJU: --such as Don McGahn, Hope Hicks, they've stepped in, and said that he cannot discuss these communications with the President. Now, can he discuss what they interviewed Hope Hicks about?

CUOMO: Right.

RAJU: Can he discuss what they interviewed Don McGahn about? Other are fact--


RAJU: --witnesses who have not come to Capitol Hill.

CUOMO: Yes, he can.

RAJU: Will Mueller be able to say that?

CUOMO: He can.

RAJU: And will the White House try to block that?

CUOMO: He can. They can try to block. You know, trying and succeeding are two very different things. This is not a White House official. He did not work for the President. There was no privilege.

The idea of things being privileged under the DOJ, I don't understand the application of that, in this context. And to the point of context, Manu, here's the deal. Mr. Mueller has said, "Hey, the report ipse dixit." In Latin, that means "It speaks for itself. I'm not going to go beyond it."

But the context of how they came to the conclusions is contained in the report, and can be articulated, because remember, Manu, you know, most of us are like me, not you, we're not smart enough to have read and processed the report the way you did.

So, to hear from Mr. Mueller say, "Here's what we found. Here's what it was based on." Look at what he did in just those 10 minutes. The impact could be profound.

RAJU: It absolutely could, especially if he starts to detail exactly what was in the report, people start to connect, and understand what he found, whether it's the 10 episodes of potential obstruction of justice, the extensive Russian interference campaign.

But, Chris, it's also a risk for Democrats, if Mueller slips in any way, does not come across as a compelling witness. That could also undercut what-- CUOMO: True.

RAJU: --the Democrats are trying to portray in this report as well.

So, this is a - a high stakes hearing that everybody will be hanging on every word, and probably one reason why the Special Counsel has been reticent about going public because he says the report speaks for himself.

But it'll be different under questioning from Members of Congress from two Committees. A lot of Members will have questions to be asked. How Mueller will answer them, of course, is altogether a different question.

CUOMO: And he's going to take a lot of friendly fire from people in his own party because he now represents a potential threat to this President. Manu Raju, big news on our watch. Thank you for breaking it down. Appreciate it.

And then, just quickly, as we go back--


CUOMO: --to Nina Turner and Ed Rendell - Mr. Mueller was subpoenaed. It seemed to be part of a process. He's agreed to come on, so there should not be a protracted legal process with this, but July 17th, in open session.

All right, so let's bring back Nina Turner and Ed Rendell. Thank you very much for holding by. But I told you, you'd want to hear the news.

Ed, how big a deal to the former Vice President will the Mueller probe be, in terms of his pushing for accountability of this President in the debates? He will have an opportunity.

RENDELL: Oh, absolutely. And I think everyone will view this as a first step towards real transparency.

The American people deserve to know what was in that report. The summary given by the Attorney General is obviously false. Mr. Mueller's going to be able to correct that, and tell the American people exactly what happened.

CUOMO: And Nina, another thing that's in the news, maybe on our watch tonight, the House may finally get its act together, and pass a bill to remedy somewhat the humanitarian crisis on the Border.

The Senator has talked about this. But it is not a point of passion for him. I'm not saying he doesn't care about the Border. But I'm saying, in the debate, he will have an opportunity to talk about how big a deal it is.

What do you think he will say about what the Border will be under his watch, if he is elected?

[21:10:00] TURNER: No, Chris. It is a point of passion for the Senator. I mean the Senator sent out emails to his lists to push back on the raids that President Trump wanted to do.

CUOMO: True.

TURNER: One of the biggest list of any Democratic candidate. Period!

So, the Senator cares about this because this is a humanitarian crisis, and he will continue, not only to talk about it, but as the American people can see, that even before he becomes the next President of the United States of America, he's taking the action that is--

CUOMO: I'm just saying that none of them--

TURNER: --necessary. This President--

CUOMO: --none, including Biden, none has owned that Border the way they have other fiscal and legitimate policy issues. "Here's my plan. Here's what I'm going to do. This kids will never be separated on my watch, and here's why. Here's what I'd be doing in this situation."

TURNER: Plus--

CUOMO: They haven't done it that way, Nina. That's why I asked.

TURNER: Well the Senator has said that under his watch this would not happen.

Part of him saying no more private prisons, as we know the, private prison industry owns the - the - the facilities that those young children and their families are in, so no more making profit off of other people's misery. So, the Senator understands that very clearly, and he will continue to push for - for that.

CUOMO: Nina, Ed, thank you. I'm sorry I gave you short shrift. But when news comes, we must respond. Thank you very much. I wish both of your sides--


CUOMO: --good luck tomorrow night and beyond.

All right, breaking news tonight, Robert Mueller subpoenaed to testify publicly next month. He has agreed. That's the good news. And this is good news. Period!

What does it mean to Members of Congress? We have a key one next. And she is also key in whether or not the House can get a bill done to remedy what is wrong on the Border, next.







CUOMO: Breaking news confirmed by CNN just moments ago, Robert Mueller will testify and in public. That is huge. When? Wednesday, July 17th, before two Committees, the House Judiciary and Intelligence Committees. That's a lot of people, a lot of questions, and there's going to be a lot of heat.

Democratic Congresswoman Rosa DeLauro joins me now. Thank you very much.




CUOMO: You and I have other business to take up about what's going to--


CUOMO: --happen on the Border. But this news matters. What does it mean to you that Mr. Mueller will testify in public?

DELAURO: I think it's - it's critically important, Chris, and that I think the American public needs to hear from Robert Mueller.

It was - he was the Special Counsel. The report is out there. It's his report. He needs to put the interpretation on his report rather than other people defining it for him. So, you're right. It is very, very big news tonight. I'm very pleased.

CUOMO: Yes. And I actually think it's a nonpartisan situation. Obviously, the Right doesn't want him there.


CUOMO: And they're going to hit him heavy and hostile. That's part of the job. But the American people need to hear from him.

DELAURO: That's right.

CUOMO: Because so many have not read the report. OK. So that's what we know. Now let's go to what we don't know. Will you get it done in the House to finally pass something that will remedy the emergency on the Border?

DELAURO: Yes. We will have a strong--

CUOMO: Tonight? DELAURO: Tonight, we will have a very strong vote tonight. And, you know, I was with you three weeks ago, and I said, what our goal was - was to - yes, that the money would be there.

But what we have to have as well as the protections for these children who are in these facilities because we know that in the past there have been abuses.

And then the third piece of this was, in fact, how do we devise the system and the mechanism for moving them out of the - these facilities to go to a safe placement to be there, and to do it as expeditiously as possible?

We have accomplished that in this bill. It's $2.9 billion for the Labor HHS side of the equation.

And we have built in the protections of - including, legal services for youngsters, case management, making sure that for the very first time, Chris, the very first time that the standards of care in the Flores Agreement will now be mandated for these influx shelters that have been exempt from these standards in the past. And if the grantees do not comply, the contracts will be revoked.


DELAURO: One or - one or two other things, we have very, very important--

CUOMO: Go ahead.

DELAURO: --is that what we - what we accomplished here was to say that when a sponsor comes forward, when - if a sponsor comes forward that the information from the sponsor cannot be used for immigration enforcement or for deportation.


DELAURO: Well because that what happened is that in the past what they did when people came forward, if they were found to be undocumented, these people were deported, so we - they dried up the pool of - of - of sponsors, and that is - they almost ground this to a halt, so--

CUOMO: All right, but two things. Two things, Congresswoman.

DELAURO: --critically important.

And one other piece the - the sharing of the - the - well the sharing of the information, and moving these children more quickly out of the - out of the system to a safe placement. Now, the folks that they have--

CUOMO: All right.

DELAURO: --have got to be vetted. They have to be vetted, so that it is a safe placement. CUOMO: All right, so one, as you know, a lot of the licensing is done at the state level, and they have their own recommendations of this. We're going to have to see how that policy dovetails, but that's not my concern.

I don't understand the ICE piece. I want you to help me, engage my skepticism for a second.


CUOMO: That has already been suspended currently. They are not taking that kind of information, and using it to act against the sponsors. So, are you concerned that you are injecting something into it that's not really necessary under the current conditions--

DELAURO: No, no, no.

CUOMO: --because it's suspended, and it may piss off the White House and the political Right and stymie this?

DELAURO: No. No. This is the - the case because, first of all, it - this - this language is already in the Department of Homeland Security bill. It is now in our bill.

But understand, Chris, the Memorandum of Agreement had nothing to do with ICE. It had to do with HHS, Health and Human Services, and the Department of Homeland Security that said you--

CUOMO: Right.

DELAURO: --you send the information. So ICE was not out of this. So, let's put ICE aside, and what this is - this is already in the Department of Homeland Security bill which has passed.

CUOMO: I hear the buzzer.

DELAURO: Yes, I hear the buzzer, right.

CUOMO: I hear the buzzer. No, no, I mean I - I don't want you to miss the vote. I mean this really matters.

DELAURO: Right, yes, please, right.

CUOMO: Listen, Congresswoman, we talked on TV. We talked off TV. I know that this matters.

[21:20:00] I'm just worried about poison pills. I know you want your protections. I just want the progress of seeing the money get to the Border. Please, good luck on the vote. I hope it gets passed.

DELAURO: Thank you.

CUOMO: And I hope it winds up becoming law.

DELAURO: It's going to be a strong vote tonight, Chris, a strong vote, OK? CUOMO: I hope it's not--

DELAURO: And now I need your help.

CUOMO: --a party line.

DELAURO: I need your help.

CUOMO: You got it.

DELAURO: The Senate needs to move and the President needs to understand. He can talk about humanitarian crises. But now we've got a resolution of it. This ought to pass the Senate, and he ought to sign this legislation.

CUOMO: All right, thank you. Don't miss the vote. I appreciate it, Congresswoman--


CUOMO: --especially with the timing being so sensitive. That's what that buzzer is. She's got to get back inside.

All right, so we have more on these two big pieces of news. And look, I know the Mueller news looms large. I get it. And it should. And for him to be there July 17th in public is huge.

But I'm telling you, we're sleeping on this Border situation. And I think it defines us, here and abroad, more than we are owning in this moment.

So, we have the Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, the House Judiciary Committee, Jerrold Nadler, Congressman of New York. He's obviously instrumental in what happens with Mueller. He's going to come on the show. He's coming over now.

As soon as we get him, we'll bring him to you, so let's get right back.








CUOMO: All right, two big stories breaking on our watch. Robert Mueller will face lawmakers and the nation, July 17th in public. That's the key part. He's going to testify before two House Committees.

You're going to have the Judiciary and the Intel Committee. There's going to be a lot of people and a lot of drama. People aren't reading the report. They won't have to, because Mueller will tell you what they found and why.

Now, the other big story, the House is voting, at this moment, on a crucial Border aid bill, despite a White House veto threat. We have former DNC Chair Howard Dean joining me right now.

I want to get your take on both of these. It's a great night to have you. And thank you for being here. Mueller being in public, what will that mean?

HOWARD DEAN, FORMER VERMONT GOVERNOR, FORMER DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's not going to be good for Trump or the Republicans who have basically covered Trump's butt, ever since this began.

Mueller has got an enormous credibility. He's very careful. He's not flamboyant. You won't see this - the kind of language that some of the people, Republican witnesses have said.

You know, as your time is up, you won't see any of that stuff. You may see it from the Committee Members. But this is not a good thing for Donald Trump.

CUOMO: But what does it mean for Democrats? If he is relatively compelling, he doesn't get eaten up by his own, who are coming after him, because of what you might represent for the President, at - after that, don't the Democrats have to pick a path?

DEAN: Well we'll see. I mean this - this could be the beginning of the one that you've been advocating for, for a long time.

CUOMO: Oh, no, no, no, no. Be clear. Be clear, Dean.

I am not advocating for anything, except making a decision because this fish nor fowl doesn't make sense. If you want to go and assess the facts, that's called an impeachment inquiry. If you think you don't need to, then move on.

DEAN: Well, normally, if you compare impeachment to a court proceedings, you'd have to get some evidence before. Now we've got plenty of--

CUOMO: Impeachment of bringing articles of impeachment, I'm saying the process of amassing facts to see if you should impeach--

DEAN: Right.

CUOMO: --that's called an impeachment inquiry.

DEAN: We could do that. But although - the question is how much evidence are we going to get? Without one, and you know, if you have to do that to - to get the evidence, you should. I mean we need some facts though--

CUOMO: Well that's good point.

DEAN: --before we go down the road of impeachment. We do need--

CUOMO: You have the Mueller report.

DEAN: --the facts. Well that's why it's going to be important. That's why it's a big deal.

CUOMO: All right--

DEAN: And it's also, let's not forget, a lot of the Mueller report was redacted with - by Barr--

CUOMO: Well--

DEAN: --who didn't - shouldn't have redacted what he did.

CUOMO: Right. I mean most of it is in the - the part one, which is about the counterintelligence, where they didn't find any crimes of conspiracy to act on.

DEAN: Right.

CUOMO: And relatively, you got most of what you needed to know, but you may get some more here.

I doubt Mr. Mueller would play with any of the gradations, and he knows them very well. But you think that this is a definitive move in terms of stating where we are in the process.

DEAN: I think it is. But, don't forget, there's also enormous amount of evidence of financial malfeasance and crookedness on the part of the Trump's, Trump, his family, and his surrounding people. So, we're not done here.

You know, we need - going to get Michael Cohen back to talk some more about some of the stuff that's took or not (ph). He - if he gets impeached, it won't just be because of the Russians. It's going to be because he's a crook.

CUOMO: Well the over - the umbrella has always been, to my nose, abuse of power. I didn't think that the--

DEAN: Right.

CUOMO: --Mueller probe would introduce any criminality.

I didn't know how right we were. I didn't know that the guidance that was given to the Special Counsel about not indicting a President was literally part of his understanding going into it. I think they should--

DEAN: Right. CUOMO: --have told us that. But I did see that people are going to be - be disappointed, and certainly, they were. I think that was about the Left actually overselling what the possibilities were.

Let me ask you something else, talking about overselling the possibilities. I just had Congressman DeLauro on.

She has been pivotal in trying to get together this deal on the Border. And this provision in it sounds like a poison pill to me. The White House has threatened already, and I understand why.

The requirement, Howard, that if you have somebody come as a sponsor, you can't look and see whether or not they're documented. One, you got to vet and make sure that these are the right people, and the proper types of people to take.

That's already been suspended, that requirement about information sharing, and it feels like it's salt in the wound, and almost asking for a fight. Why put that in there right now?

DEAN: I don't know. You have - I mean that you have to ask Rosa. I - I'm not on the floor and I'm not a Member of Congress. These kind of stuff are incredibly important, I - I mean - and difficult.

And you sometimes have to put stuff in there to get the last few Democratic votes. This is - if - if - this is not a perfect bill. There have been a lot of people who didn't want to vote for this bill in the Democratic Party.

I forgot who said this, but it was an advocate - an advocacy group for immigration saying, "You got to pass it. We got to do something." And I don't know if you saw the incredible picture today of a--

CUOMO: Oh we saw it.

DEAN: --father and a little girl--

CUOMO: And we fought to show it because one of the ironies here, Howard, is that we wanted to protect people, and give them the warning. This is really graphic, and maybe you don't want to look at it.

[21:30:00] I think the opposite is the truth. I think that we shouldn't look away from it. I think we've ignored a reality.

And, to be fair, I think that the Democrats in the House have missed an opportunity. They've wasted months to jump on this, and say, "This President is harshness. We are heart. We will give you this money," and they haven't.

DEAN: Well they have now or they're about to--

CUOMO: We'll see.

DEAN: --in - in about 15 minutes, we hope. But, you know, that - that - that was a similar picture, as you well

remember, a few years ago, which turned around the issue of immigration in Europe, and the - and the problems that they were having.

This is an extraordinary picture. This shows the cruelty of the Republican Party and the cruelty of Donald Trump. This is going to be a big election issue.

This is - goes right to moral character in a place that every American, no matter where they are in their political spectrum - small children who die because of Donald Trump's cruel policies, that is unacceptable to almost every decent human being, citizen - American citizen.

CUOMO: But listen, Howard, I don't like using the fix of offense as a panacea. I was never - I'm not against defense. I know too much about the situation on the Border, did not think that physical barriers aren't helpful.

But everybody knew it wasn't a fix for this situation, and this President is going to have some ownership of that. But there's a lot of shame to go around here, and this has existed for a long time, and the rules in place right now make--

DEAN: Right.

CUOMO: --no sense. And they're not doing anything, except pointing fingers. I think it hurts everybody, to be honest.

DEAN: Well, I think yes, except the - the separation policy is not - on contrary to - to lies that the President tells every day, that's his idea or his policy--

CUOMO: He like the message of deterrence.

DEAN: --he's going to - he's going to live with it.

CUOMO: He like the harshness of it.

DEAN: Right.

CUOMO: There's no question.

DEAN: When you start to deter people by punishing children, you've made a major, major mistake, and I think the American people will remember this just as well as they remember Trump trying to get rid of pre-existing conditions bans before the midterms.

CUOMO: Well, look, it's a powerful suggestion. We'll see how they handle it tomorrow night.

But I got to tell you, you know, on the debate stage is one thing. But, those who want to make it a big deal now, they're going to have to answer about where they've been up till this point.

DEAN: Right.

CUOMO: But Howard Dean, getting your head on these issues is always a plus for our audience, so thank you.

DEAN: Thank you.

CUOMO: Great to have you.

Still to come, House Judiciary Chair Jerry Nadler, this is a big night. What does he expect? How difficult a process was this to get Mr. Mueller to come? That's going to be helpful to us, and understand what kind of Mueller we will get, all right?

And what does he think about what's going to happen in the Border? Does he have any concerns about whether or not this deal will get done based on what's in this bill in the House right now?

Nadler coming up on a big night, next.








CUOMO: All right, two big stories breaking on our watch. Right now, they're voting on whether or not to pass a bill in the House to give the money needed to stop the crisis on the Border.

That's where the House Judiciary Chair Jerry Nadler is. This is a huge night for him because he just got a deal to have Bob Mueller testify in public on July 17th.

We have Manu Raju up there on Capitol Hill. We're supposed to have the Chairman, but he's in there voting on the Border bill, both of these breaking stories coming together at once.

What are you hearing in terms of how tricky this was to get Mueller? And I want to know that not because of the politics, but the practicalities of how willing Mr. Mueller is to come.

RAJU: Well he was not willing at all. In fact, this is why there have been negotiations that have happened for weeks. Democrats have tried to get him to come before Congress in a public session.

But he has privately pushed back, asked for that to actually happen in a private testimony. And Adam Schiff just made comments moments ago, this is not a friendly subpoena. This is something, in fact, that he - that the Special Counsel--

CUOMO: There is Schiff.

RAJU: Mr. Schiff, Mr. Schiff, Mr. Schiff, we're - we're live right now on CNN. Was this a friendly subpoena? Was it - they call it for something in which the Special Counsel asked to be subpoenaed to come before your Committee?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): I don't think the Special Counsel's Office considers that a friendly subpoena.

He was, and is, deeply reluctant to come testify. But nonetheless, he has agreed to respect the subpoena. So, we expect all of the Members of our Committee will have an opportunity to ask him questions.

RAJU: Is this going to be back-to-back hearings with your Committee first and Judiciary Committee after, or how's this going to be?

SCHIFF: It'll be back-to-back hearings between the two Committees. There's also staff allotted. There's time also allotted for Executive session.

After Mueller testifies, that will be with his staff, and in terms of the order of hearings, it's my presumption that the Judiciary Committee will question him first. But we'll still be working on the logistics.

RAJU: What - and for you, what is the most important critical thing that you need to hear the Special Counsel say? He said he's not going to go beyond the four corners of the report. Can he actually reveal anything new that you don't already know?

SCHIFF: Well, of course, there's no limitation on confining his testimony to the four corners of the report. That may be his desire. But Congress has questions that go beyond the report.

And we have seen with the Attorney General, he is more than willing to make statements that go well beyond anything in the Mueller report. Indeed, in his case, misrepresent the Mueller report.

So, we have any number of questions about the counterintelligence investigation, and the role of the counterintelligence agents within his team, to questions about some of the prosecutorial decisions that were made.

We have fact questions about some of the statements that are made in the report. So, there are any number of issues that we wish to cover with him.

RAJU: OK. All right, thanks, Sir. Thanks, Sir. Well - well there you have it. You hear about how he views this going down, Chris.

CUOMO: Yes, it's going to be adversarial on both sides.

RAJU: Back-to-back hearings. CUOMO: About - well it has to be back-to-back. It would just have been too much to do it once. But it's really interesting here, the timing of the subpoena. Was that just done now or had he been quietly issued the subpoena weeks ago in this process? Do you know that?

RAJU: Well it is unclear at the moment. That's a question I - I'm sure when the - the Chairman of the Judiciary comes on, Jerry Nadler, you can certainly ask him that.

The - what's clear is that these negotiations have been happening behind the scenes for weeks. This is the only way that he would essentially come, is if he was forced to come. But he said that he doesn't view this as a, quote, friendly subpoena.

CUOMO: Right.

RAJU: That's what Schiff just said.


RAJU: He said that the - the Chair - the Special Counsel did not want to appear in public.

So, we'll see, ultimately, we have to see. But that was interesting comment from Adam Schiff just now, Chris, that he does not expect him to only answer questions within the four corners of the report that--

[21:40:00] CUOMO: Well he says he's not required to.

RAJU: --they're going to ask those other questions.

CUOMO: He's not required to--

RAJU: Exactly right.

CUOMO: --stay within the four corners. That may be his wish.

RAJU: Right.

CUOMO: But that will not meet with the wishes, certainly of the Democrats, in the Congress. It's a very interesting little moment we're living together. We're always saying that Congress isn't doing anything.

Tonight, they're doing a lot. They got the Mueller thing done and they're voting on the Border. Those buzzers, you know what they mean very well. Those buzzers meant that Adam Schiff had to go vote.

Now, the House Chair, Jerry Nadler walked behind Schiff and Manu during that interview. He's getting miked up right now. He has already voted is our understanding, so he is free to talk to us.

I would never want to compromise a vote, let alone on something as important as this Border bill. So, we're going to get the House Chair as soon as he's ready. While we're waiting on him, let's bring in Asha Rangappa. She's on the phone. She worked at the FBI. And this is an interesting thing, one, for me, the timing of the subpoena.

Is this something he said where I'm not going to come, and they issued it quietly, weeks or longer ago, and then negotiated this way to this point, or could you see a scenario, Asha, where they would have negotiated and needed the subpoena to push it over the line?

ASHA RANGAPPA, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT, CNN LEGAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Chris, I think that what - one thing that Mueller has made clear is that he does not want to get in political crossfires.

And what he said in his press conference is that the report speaks for itself, and it does. It's 448 pages. It actually explains quite a lot.

So, I think for him to get a subpoena to be required to come in to testify, for him, in some ways, insulates him from the idea that he's trying to - to promote some narrative of his own, but he's really there at the request of - of these committees.

CUOMO: Got you.

RANGAPPA: So, I'm not really sure what happened behind the scenes. But I think that that is really his interest in - in this is to protect the integrity in the investigation.

CUOMO: Asha, appreciate the perspective. Thank you very much. I'm going to go from you to the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Jerrold Nadler, Democrat from New York.

Good to have you, Sir, especially on such an important night. I'm assuming you did vote on--

REP. JERROLD NADLER (D-NY): Good to be here.

CUOMO: --the Border bill. Are you clear of that responsibility?

NADLER: Well I - I have - and I voted on the motion to the committee (ph), vote on the bill is coming up.

CUOMO: All right, good, because I do not want to delay you in any way.

But the point of having Mueller, he says, "I won't go beyond the report."

But, as we both know, most people haven't read the report. And what he said in his press conference was so powerful. It wasn't new, if you read the report. But it matters to hear it from him. Is that your interest?

NADLER: Well our interest is to - for the American people to hear it from him. There's been a campaign of misrepresentation by Attorney General Barr

who miss - who misrepresented what - what was in the report, by the President who keeps saying, "The report found no collusion, no obstruction." That's not true either way.

So, it's important the American people hear from him what the report found. It's important that he answer a lot of specific questions.

I think one of the questions that isn't specifically in the report will be what - "You wrote a letter, Mr. Mueller, to - to the special - to the Attorney General saying that he had, in ways, misrepresented the report. How so?"

But I think it's important the American people hear from him what he did find and what he didn't find.

CUOMO: How worried are you that he wants to do this so little that he's going to be non-responsive when he gets before you?

NADLER: I think he'll answer the questions. And it's up to us to ask questions that will - that'll - that'll elicit the information.

And remember, he did a two-year investigation. He found that the Russians attacked our election. He found that the - there were plenty of, I think, a 170 contacts between the Russians and the people in the Trump campaign.

He found that the Trump campaign welcomed the intervention of the - of the Russians, and the assistance of the Russians. He found plenty of obstruction of justice in the President trying to obstruct his investigation, and all of that has - has to be stated publicly--

CUOMO: One more quick thing--

NADLER: --and we'd like to hear (ph).

CUOMO: --because I think that buzzer means that you have to go back in. But let me ask you.


CUOMO: Are you worried about the White House blocking Mueller or the DOJ blocking Mueller or content?

NADLER: No. I'm not - I'm not really worried about that because Mueller is an honest, upstanding citizen.

And he'll - he will testify in response to a - to the subpoena that we issued. He's not going to let the White House or anybody else tell him to defy a lawful Congressional subpoena.

CUOMO: And they don't have any right of privilege. He didn't work for them. And does the Attorney General have any right even though Mueller is no longer an employee?

NADLER: No. He has no right, whatsoever.

I mean the Administration has claimed with respect to Hope Hicks, and McGahn, and some other people, absolute immunity, which is nonsense, as a matter of law, and we're going to prove that in court - we're going to show that in court.

But no, there is no right to defy a Congressional subpoena. The White House might assert some privilege. But when they revealed this a - a lot of the information to Mueller, and even to private attorneys, they waived the privilege.

So, I think he'll answer the questions that are put to him because it's a civic duty to do so, and he's an upstanding prosecutor.

[21:45:00] CUOMO: Do you think that this Border vote that you're about to go do, do you think it's going to be straight party-line, or do you think you have enough Republicans signing onto this, to keep the White House at bay, and maybe get through with the Senate?

NADLER: I don't know. I haven't been whipping Republicans. I think it'll be - it'll be close to party line from what I hear.

CUOMO: Does that concern you that the situation--

NADLER: Yes, it concerns, it--

CUOMO: --is so dire?

NADLER: It - it certainly concerns me that plenty of people are willing to vote in such a way as to keep the terrible conditions for these children, the separation of the families, the - the keeping of children in unsanitary, unhealthful conditions, six have died so far, yes, it concerns me.

I - I - I said in conversation to some other people that a - a "No vote" on this bill is a political statement. The "Yes vote" is a moral imperative.

CUOMO: And, you know, look, I know some Members of the Left, of the Democratic Party weren't so crazy about this bill either. I hope somebody's going to show the picture of the father and daughter face down in the water, having died trying to cross the river.

NADLER: Yes, we've seen.

CUOMO: I hope somebody introduces it at the vote to remind people--

NADLER: Well that is - that is - that is--

CUOMO: --what this is about.

NADLER: --that is why it's a moral imperative. No bill is perfect. Certainly, this one isn't. But it's the best we can get. It will help these kids. It will save lives. Therefore, it's a moral imperative to vote for it.

CUOMO: Mr. Chairman, such an important night, two different stories. You're involved in both. Thank you for sharing your perspective on these events with my audience. I appreciate it.

NADLER: Well thank you, thank you, Chris. CUOMO: All right, this picture I'm talking about, listen, I think it's everything. This was a debate within news organizations whether you show it. That's not unusual. We're worried about the startling effect of this grisly reality.

This is terrible, whether you're a parent, or you just have blood pumping through your veins. And the idea that this is some type of suggestion that we're doing things the right way is just wrong.

This picture came out now for a reason. Hopefully, it motivates the men and women of both parties to realize whatever is holding them back can't be as important as what they can get done to avoid situations like that picture.

They said, you know, "Well, should we show it?" You can't look away, and that's why CNN decided to show you that picture, because this is the reality, not Left and Right. It is right and wrong.

We have an argument for you, next.








CUOMO: A big question has been answered. Will the House do something about the tragedy on the Border that is a daily occurrence? The answer is yes, at least for the House. It just passed 230 to 195.

What does that mean? Well some Democrats crossed the line to be against it. Some Republicans did it the other way. But it was basically a party line vote.

The President has threatened to veto. Why? Because there are provisions in here that the Democrats call protections that the President and Members on the Right will see as restrictions that are unnecessary.

And there is a legitimate argument to be made that how do you strip this down to keep it as fundamentally straight to the need as possible. That's a political question. But it's a practical one as well.

And speaking of that, I want to show you this picture again. I know it is hard to look at. The reality is hard. We don't moralize here.

This is a matter of fact. That is a father and daughter, not even two years old. They're migrants from El Salvador, and now they're dead. They drowned on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande.

The poignancy of this photo just breaks your heart. That little girl's arm is wrapped around her father's neck. She's tucked in his shirt. Oscar Alberto Martinez and that little girl's name was Angie Valeria.

Listen, I understand that people will see this picture, and I know you'll feel, but then very quickly you'll attach significance to it. And you'll say, "Well, you know, that was their choice."

But what if it was desperation? "Well that father, you know, he didn't have to do this." But what if he felt that he had no better choice? And you can look at it, and say, "Look, you know, the President did what he needed to do."

With what? The fence? That was never a fix.

Listen, you have to see it for what it is. The President has sold you on a Brown Menace. "They're mostly rapists and murderers and bad people." No, they are not. As true as that statement is, this reality is a 100 times more true. This happens all the time, desperate daddies and mommies and their kids.

Texas authorities reported seven new migrant deaths, including a woman, two babies, and a toddler. They're thought to have died from heat exposure and dehydration. That's the reality.

I've been to the Border over and over to call attention to this crisis. Many have. I've been there twice in just the past few months if you watch here. The problems aren't new. But they are getting worse.

This video is from a documentary I did years ago, two years ago. Authored - authorities were worried then about the flow being too much. People were dying so often, the Medical Examiner I'm with in this documentary, she had trailers - you see that?

Those trailers are full of bodies, full of bodies. She was overcapacity of dead. Trump and his team came in knowing about the needs. They chose harshness over readiness.

A fence was never the fix to this flow, and they knew it. Congress knew too. And they choose not to do what is needed, even this bill.

Look, I'll take progress, all right? We cannot let it be the enemy of inaction, let alone of perfection. But it does have some potential poison pills that the Democrats know could stop it all, and they have to make a political calculation. What do they have to swallow to get this done?

[21:55:00] Maybe Oscar and Angie's story will resonate more than just numbers, maybe not, maybe not. Maybe many of you are still going to say, "So come the right way."

Look, the reporting is this father did. They came. They couldn't get in. Metered - metering, they call it. They just don't have the capacity for the flow, so they're told, "You don't have papers, you got to go."

And this idea that, "Hey look, it's on this dad. He shouldn't have done this," I got to disagree with that mindset. I got to disagree with it.

Why? Because I don't respect the law? Of course, I respect the law. It just doesn't tell you the full story. This is an expensive and scary endeavor for these folks. I've seen that trip they make.

They make it for their kids. They don't do it to their kids. These parents and their kids, they got dreams as big as the expanse that they are willing to challenge, as big as the odds against them getting in. They risk everything.

Wouldn't you, if you thought you had no other chance of giving your kid the life you think they deserve?

And now, we see the media covering reports of babies taking care of babies at the Border station in Clint, Texas, no soap, toothbrushes, many sick, lawyers for the government arguing that you don't need soap and toothbrushes to have a sanitary condition, limited rations.

We're making this BS sound like it's new, like they're exposing bad acts by our Border folks. Those are both wrong inferences. The people in charge have been telling Congress for months.

This President has known for months that they couldn't handle the flow and the conditions were deteriorating. I saw the same both times, and in different places, and I told you about it.

If someone at CBP does something wrong, Custom and Border Protection, they should be called out, and held to account, if they're not treating these kids the right way. How dare they?

But the media has known this reality for months. This isn't new, what they're telling you. Some have covered it. Some haven't. But it ain't new. Know that.

People who live near the Border stations heard about the horrendous conditions. They were moved because as much as we have government incompetence, we have compassion in this country.

So, they start trying to drop off toothpaste, diapers, soap, shampoo, all the stuff they heard they need. They leave notes that say "I heard you all need soap and toothpaste for kids. Maybe more will be on its way soon." Why did they have to leave notes? Because of the irony at play.

The donations aren't being accepted. There's a law that mandates that government agencies can't take donations. They can only get what is given to them by Congress. But Congress has neglected the crisis, so they don't have what they need.

In many cases, Border workers buy or bring stuff from home. In America? How stupid can government get? And yet, as I said, equal or greater to our weaknesses are our

strengths in this country. And that's why I have so much belief that we can make a better choice than looking at fathers and toddlers face down dead in the water, and think that it's on them.

So, you want to help? Don't go to the facilities. Send or deliver to someone like Sister Norma at the Humanitarian Respite Center in McAllen, Texas. That's a big flow area. I'm going to tweet all this out.

Sister Norma was in some of my reporting I did. She helps family get what they need. Yes, I'm a Catholic. It's not about being Catholic. If you don't want to do that, don't do it. There are other places you can go.

For instance, La Posada Providencia, the - The Providence Hostel, you can look that up, the American Red Cross. I'll put it all out on Twitter. They're helping people. They just shouldn't have to do it.

And let me show you what's not helping.


DONALD J. TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're doing a fantastic job under the circumstances. The Democrats aren't even approving giving us money. Where is the money? You know what? The Democrats are holding up the humanitarian aid.


CUOMO: Not true. Why doesn't he go? Why doesn't he make a stink, demand the help, not just be opportunistic? Use your emergency declaration you shouldn't have gotten in the first place for that fence.

The question for him is does he think that separating kids and these kinds of conditions help his message of harshness and deterrence? He perverted this situation for political gain. But this Congress has taken way too long.

And for the Right to say the Left is to blame, that ignores that they're in control of the Senate, and they took just as damn long.

Why has the House taken months? It's a good question. What is wrong with them, with all of us, on this? We hear these select Members being occasionally outraged. Why hasn't it been a point of obsession?

Kids are sick and dying. Why else are they in service? Who are we in this country?

The words on the Statue of Liberty may be just words to some of those working in this White House. But they were a talisman for generations. They were the promise that brought my grandparents here, and legions like them from Europe.

Our diversity made us strong. Our diversity is our strength. And for use - for those of you who say, "You care so much, you take them in," look, take a look at the pictures. Look back at your own lineage.

Too many of you will have ancestors who were dismissed the same way. I wish it were as easy as me being able to fix it. This is not about letting everyone in. It's not even letting about most in. I think the rules need to change. And if you research them, you would agree.