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New CNN Poll: Harris, Warren Make Steep Gains Post-Debates; Trump Jr. Shares "Birther"-Style Attack On Kamala Harris; Lawmakers Outraged By Border Crisis. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired July 1, 2019 - 21:00   ET


[21:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, ANDERSON COOPER 360: So, Philanthropist and Chief, that's a hard no. Sketchy art patron and charity photo bomber, now that's a true original, now and ever more on The Ridiculist.

And the news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Thank you, Anderson. I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.

Biden is going backwards in the latest polls, post-debate. Taking him on, even over race, worked. You know what that means. There's going to be more of it.

And the opponent who came at him the most, benefited the most in the recent polls, Kamala Harris, the Senator from California got a big boost. Question, is that why the President's son retweeted a birther- style smear about her? That's The Great Debate.

And what was his sister Ivanka doing at the center of G20 class photos and private conversations with world leaders? She was also at her father's high-stakes sit-down with Kim Jong-un at the DMZ. Shouldn't we have the best diplomats and experts beside our President who clearly needs the support?

And lawmakers went to the Border today, and they were shocked. You should be too, but not for the same reason.

What do you say? Let's get after it




CUOMO: All right, we knew things were going to change after this debate. But boy, did they change a lot?

Five points now separate Joe Biden from the candidate in the number two slot, and that right now is Senator Kamala Harris, rocketing her way to second place in our brand-new CNN poll. Her support with Democrats, nine points to the plus, since Thursday's debate. Biden's number, 10, the bad way. Warren - Senator Elizabeth Warren now in third place, Sanders in fourth.

Now, what's noteworthy is that Black voters are keeping Biden even - in the lead, even after the race row - row that rocked the debate. But, you know, I'm stuttering a little bit because it's I didn't really write it the right way.

There's a lot of change within the Black vote numbers that we're going to have to take a look at, and we will tonight. It's a mixed message in there.

Let's bring in Congressional Black Caucus Member, Bobby Rush, who's now a surrogate for Harris, endorsing her as a once-in-a-lifetime leader. It's good to have you on, Sir.

REP. BOBBY RUSH (D-IL): Chris, it's certainly good to be on.

CUOMO: The pleasure is mine, as always.

And the reason that I'm working my way through that is that, you know, when you look at the Black vote here, are they still for Biden? Yes. But they came down. And Harris had a huge pop that seems to be a nod of recognition among the African-American voter base.

How do you see the change in the numbers after the debate?

RUSH: Well I think that Senator Harris really introduced herself to America, to all of America. And certainly she, asking the question that was on the minds of most American, most of the Democratic voters, and that is can she be elected?

As you know, the number one priority for Democrats is someone who can be elected. And they want Trump out.

And so, they're looking for a candidate who can take it to Trump, who can stand toe-to-toe with Trump, who can represent them in a meaningful and profound and strong way, and that person showing up at the debate last Thursday, and that person is Senator Kamala - Kamala Harris.

CUOMO: So you believe that that Kamala Harris is the best bet for the Democrats to win the Presidency?

Would you change your mind - everybody should know, but Bobby's a Democrat from Illinois. Congressman, would you change your mind if President Barack Obama came out, and said, "I think Joe Biden is the best one."

RUSH: I am absolutely 100 percent behind Senator Kamala Harris. I think that she has what it takes to beat Trump. And that's - I'm going to be working very, very hard and viciously for her in Illinois, and throughout the Midwest.

I think that she is the one. I think that this is our oppo - opportunity to really come around - get around, gather around a candidate, and really take this nomination, and take this strictly, and kick this guy out of the White House.

CUOMO: All right, Congressman, I'm going to put up the numbers. And look, everything's subject to change. You've been studying polls, you know, for decades. They're just a suggestion of where we are at a moment in time.

Best chance to beat Trump, if you look right now, Kamala doesn't have the highest number. It's still Biden by a big long shot. But she's new, the race is early, she's certainly moving up.

[21:05:00] Here's my question for you. The Senator seems to struggle on the most important issue for Democrats, which is healthcare. She keeps going back and forth between being all-in like Bernie Sanders, and then not. More than once, Congressman, she's made the same mistake.

And to be clear, I've invited her on the show. I invite her campaign to come on the show all the time to have these discussions. I can only make the offer. I can't accept it for them.

But she keeps saying, "Yes, I'm all-in. No more private insurance. Yes, I'm OK, Medicare-for-All," and then she backs up afterwards. It's not a good way to go forward into this.

I have a couple of questions about it. First, what do you think about the back-and-forth?

RUSH: Well I think that as this campaign unfolds, as the candidates are honing and sharpening in their message, and their positions, I think that Senator Harris will be real crystal-clear on where she stands on the issue of healthcare for all Americans.

And I'm not sure whether or not it's going to mean Medicare-for-All or what it would be, but I think that she would be absolutely 100 - crystal-clear on her position in terms of healthcare.

CUOMO: Well it's got to be important also because I think you guys have a problem on healthcare. There's no question, looking at the midterms, that people, yes, there was a rejection of the President, even though he wasn't on the ballot, he was, but healthcare was their main concern.

Now for Democrats, you have to figure out what your deal is for the American people. And it seems like the more polling that's done, the idea of the extreme is not extremely liked--

RUSH: Well--

CUOMO: --by the American voter. They--

RUSH: Well - well--

CUOMO: --they want their private insurance.

RUSH: Chris, one thing that I do know about Senator Harris is that she is not extreme.

I think that Senator Harris is the candidate, the only candidate right now, who one can stand toe-to-toe with - with Trump and beat Trump, and also who can carry the Midwest. She is the candidate that have the values that really enticed me and that really persuaded me that she's the one. It's not the extremes, you know.

She didn't come down the middle on healthcare, and be the solid representative, the solid nominee for those who want to help a comprehensive and - and - and viable, and affordable healthcare system in America.

Senator Harris, all right, has what it takes to bring the healthcare program and policy that this nation is crying - crying out for. I have no doubt about it--

CUOMO: All right.

RUSH: --personally.

CUOMO: Congressman Bobby Rush, that's why you endorsed Kamala Harris. We appreciate you being on the show to make the case. Be well, Sir.

RUSH: Thank you so much.

CUOMO: All right, be well. Congressman Bobby Rush, Democrat, Illinois. It's going to be a - a big part of the developing picture there. How many from the Congressional Black Caucus come to Harris? You saw a jump in that after the debate.

Now, there's no question that the former VP, Joe Biden slipped. But what else do we see in this data? There're different messages about African-American voters and there are messages for all the top Democrats about which way they want to go on healthcare. The Wizard of Odds gave me these insights, and he has foresight, and

he is next.








CUOMO: Debates matter. You know the expression in sports. That's why they play the game that you can prognosticate all you want.

But once you play, things happen, all right? And it's about the people who are now going to attach support based on issues, and based on the messenger, and the message, all right?

Now, we're going to look inside the numbers with Harry here in a second, but we're going to look in terms of the people, but also the policy. There's a message for Democrats on healthcare, and it focuses around how far do people want to see it go, in terms of change?

So, let's bring in the Wizard of Odds, Harry Enten. So, we'll talk about the policy stuff.


CUOMO: But in terms of now versus May, we knew Biden was going to take a hit. How big and where?

ENTEN: Yes. I mean as we were sort of talking about a little bit before, look at this. I mean this is a huge drop. Look at this number, 22 percent. Now, that's down 10 points from May versus Harris, this time, not a bad arrow from me, she's up nine points up to 17.

CUOMO: She basically took his 10, right?

ENTEN: She basically took his 10. This, I'm a little less sure about. This may have happened a little bit before. But I think these are the two most important numbers. And what is driving that?

Look at this among African-Americans. So, we can split this up, we'll look at our June numbers, as well as our April and May, and we see Biden is still ahead in June at 36 percent. But, look, that is way down--


ENTEN: --from the 49 percent versus Harris is the only one who appreciably jumped. She jumped from 6 percent in April and May to 24 percent now, so now it's really a two-way fight for the African- American vote between the two of them.

CUOMO: And when you're looking at this now--


CUOMO: --the idea of, all right, this is bad for Biden. He's got to get his game going, you know--


CUOMO: --he has to show that he can deal with his past and--


CUOMO: --translate it into the future, all right?

ENTEN: Yes. Yes.

CUOMO: Or otherwise, he's got trouble because he's going to get more attacks now-- ENTEN: Oh, you--

CUOMO: --because you know it works.

ENTEN: --you--

CUOMO: But there's going to be another set of attacks.


CUOMO: What else do we see in these numbers about what's the problem for Democrats, not named Biden?

ENTEN: Yes. So, I think if we were to look, for instance, at Medicare- for-All, I think that this is an important one. And basically what we have here is this is actually - this should just be registered voters, but we can cross it out.

CUOMO: That's--

ENTEN: There's registered voters. And then we can go down the list, and what do we see?

So, should there be a government health insurance program? Should it be replaced with private insurance? Overwhelmingly, potential Dem voters say that "Yes, we should have a government-run program."

But look at this. "Favor, should replace with - with private plans" versus "Favor, should not replace - I'm sorry should - should replace with public," look at this. But this is the - I can't do an arrow.

CUOMO: Yes, that was great.

ENTEN: Whatever.

CUOMO: Please.

ENTEN: But favor, should replace with the private plan--

CUOMO: It's the worst. Yes, yes--

ENTEN: --versus, favor and should - no - favor, replace with the public plan, favor, should not replace with the public plan, this I think is important, because 30 percent, 30 percent say we should favor and replace overall, and took--

CUOMO: I took it away from you because--

ENTEN: Now, you took it away from it--

CUOMO: --you were screwing it up.

ENTEN: I was screwing it up.

CUOMO: Now you do.

ENTEN: OK. Favor and should replace overall, 30 percent among Democratic primary voters versus 49 percent--


[21:15:00] ENTEN: --who say we should favor, and should not replace it with all public plan.

CUOMO: I mean, look, doesn't the analysis end right here that half your party says "Don't take away my private insurance. Don't make the Obama mistake," in quotes. I know you - the Democrats are going to attack me about this.

When he said you can keep your doctor--

ENTEN: Right.

CUOMO: --people fear the change. It's tenuous enough.

ENTEN: People--

CUOMO: Is that why Kamala Harris keeps going back and forth about--


CUOMO: --"Yes, here's my hand raised. But now my campaign's going to switch."

ENTEN: I think that's exactly right. In fact, you could add up the 13 percent here, and it's 60 percent who - who don't want to change it. But take a look at Harris' numbers, because I think this is important, right?

This is - this, I think, is rather key. Should there be - government healthcare insurance, should it be replaced with a private - should we replace? And this is among Kamala Harris' own supporters in our poll, 18 percent - only 18 percent say that the private insurance plans should all be replaced among her supporters.

CUOMO: Then why'd she raised her hands?

ENTEN: I don't know.

CUOMO: It's not the first time.

ENTEN: It's not the first time. But I think this is her hesitancy, right?

She perhaps thinking, OK, the Bernie and Warren supporters we want, and they do want it replaced in our poll. But it's this sort of middle of the bloc vote which she is sort of going back and forth because she doesn't know.

CUOMO: Her whole thing is speak truth.

ENTEN: You know what? A lot of times politicians say "Speak truth," and it not necessarily always speaking truth. And when you're dealing with an issue like this, in which the liberal

base of the party wants to replace private insurance with a public One-for-All versus that more centrist bloc of the party that doesn't, that I think is the real issue here that's going on, and she's not sure.

But this poll, to me, indicates that she should say, "I should have a public option. We should not get rid of a private insurance plans."

CUOMO: And that's a problem for Sanders. It's a problem for Warren, not as much. It's a problem for Harris just if we deal with the top, not a problem for Biden. I think we're going to hear a lot more about that from the VP.

ENTEN: This is the type of thing that Joe Biden should go after because this, he can say, "I defend Obamacare." Obama is loved by Democrats. And this overall is--

CUOMO: Right.

ENTEN: --very, very key for them.

CUOMO: You cannot have the ACA, Obamacare, if you want, and any of these versions of this plan.

ENTEN: Right.

CUOMO: Both will not coexist. It doesn't work.

ENTEN: The--

CUOMO: So, it's one or the other.

ENTEN: This is the key.

CUOMO: All right.

ENTEN: This is the key.

CUOMO: Thank you very much, my friend. I appreciate it. We'll talk about whether you get to use the writing anymore. I don't know. This was--

ENTEN: Well - you know when - you know when--

CUOMO: --this was a step-back for you. That's all I'm saying.

ENTEN: --in college, I used the computer all the time. Maybe I can use a computer on here.


ENTEN: We'll bring a typewriter out, you know--

CUOMO: Yes, that's--

ENTEN: --manual typewriter.

CUOMO: Well - we'll start - we'll start slow.

ENTEN: I'll punch it one by one.

CUOMO: We'll go - we're going to bring back the whiteboard. You can start on that.

ENTEN: Oh, yes, that's how I trained (ph).

CUOMO: That's how it trained. That's how I trained out.

ENTEN: There we go.

CUOMO: All right, so this story matters, OK? Nothing happens by accident in politics these days.

Some Twitter trolls, including the President's son has been trying to undercut Kamala Harris' breakout performance. With what? Take a guess. Race-related birther-type smears.

Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. It's something worth debating. Can the man on the right make the case it's an accident. Will the man on the left ever accept that? The faces tell the story.








CUOMO: Senator Kamala Harris, strong performance in last week's debate. You know what that means. She's now fresh meat for the fringe- Right.

And none other than Don Jr. has taken up the knife as well. He retweeted this last week. Part of it reads, quote, "Kamala Harris is "not" an American Black. She is half Indian and half Jamaican."

Don Jr. later deleted the retweet. But like his father, he opened the door to another birtherism-style conspiracy, playing with race, and obviously, it's against a Democrat.

Now, his spokesman said - says "Oh, it's a misunderstanding." Is it or is it exactly what it looks like? That's the start of tonight's Great Debate with Michael Eric Dyson and Patrick Griffin.



CUOMO: Patrick, thank you for taking - for taking up this case, not an easy one. What is your defense of the obvious?

PATRICK GRIFFIN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, FOUNDING PARTNER & CEO, MERRIMACK POTOMAC + CHARLES (MP+C): Well, Chris, I come here not to defend Trump or Donald Jr. I come here because I think it was a mistake.

I think that when you do this kind of thing, and engage in this kind of thing, you take a narrative this week for the President that is on everything but what they should be talking about.

President had a summit meeting. President went back to see Chairman Kim. The President's got at least a temporary deal with China. And he's got Democrats fawning all over themselves, as you pointed out in your previous segment, about who can be most socially to the Left.

This is not the kind of message. And race is the last place we should be going as Republicans.

CUOMO: So then why is he playing with it?

GRIFFIN: I don't like it and I won't defend it.

CUOMO: All right, well but I don't know - well why--

GRIFFIN: Why is he defending it?

CUOMO: --are you saying it's a - why do you say - you say you won't defend it. But you do defend it by saying, "I think it was an accident." You don't retweet by accident. You don't ask a question about the thing that you're retweeting by accident.

GRIFFIN: Chris, I never said it was an - by accident. I'm not sure where that's coming from. What I have said is Donald Trump Jr. should know better.


GRIFFIN: And there's no reason to engage in this kind of thing. The bottom line is this is achieving exactly what the President doesn't need right now, and exactly a place to be going where we don't need.

CUOMO: Well that's--

GRIFFIN: So, I'm not sure where that's coming from.

CUOMO: --that's an interesting - that's an interesting point because I think the other debater tonight will take the opposite that this is exactly where he wants to be, this is exactly why he did this with President Obama, it's why he played with race during his election. And now, the idea that Don Jr. says, "Well I didn't know she was half- Indian," you know, and that's how you express that kind of surprises with millions of people on Twitter.

Do you buy it? What's it about to you?

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GEORGETOWN SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR, "WHAT TRUTH SOUNDS LIKE" AUTHOR: Yes. It's a plausible deniability, right? "Oh, I didn't intend it." We don't have to get Freudian here and say "Accidents don't happen." You always intended for the thing to - to occur that occurred. The--

CUOMO: The Freudian parapraxis. Continue, Professor.

DYSON: Let's do so. Thank you, my friend.

So, the reality is the following that, yes, we know that it was intentional, even if inadvertent. We know that he wants to play with race. We know these are birther claims.

And the best way to do it is throw rocks, hide your hands, pretend you didn't intend this. This is not the kind of nastiness and viciousness, and thank God for our other debater there to suggest that this is ridiculous, what he has done, it's ludicrous, but the thing is they keep doing it.

[21:25:00] They keep repeating it. This is a constant recurring theme with the President, inferential racism, implied racism. "Oh no, I'm not a racist. I don't have a racist bone in my body." But those muscles are awful bigoted.

So the reality is we've got to come to grips with the fact that the Republicans, but - especially the far-Right wing has manipulated the symbolism of racial animus to their advantage.

And then when they get caught on it, and caught with their hands in the cookie jar, the proverbial cookie jar, they claim they didn't want dessert. This is feeding and fueling a nasty, vicious anti-Black sentiment--

GRIFFIN: Come on!

DYSON: --in this country that continues from the White House on down.

CUOMO: Well Patrick, look, I agree with the central part of your premise. You don't need to do this in this campaign. He's got points that he can argue. He's got different indicators in the economy and, you know, even in - in the world that he could point to.

But for some reason, our President, and those around him, who support him dance with the fringe-Right, and this is what happened here again.

GRIFFIN: Well Chris, it did. And clearly, at some point, Donald Trump Jr. realized it because he took the retweet down. It never should have happened in the first place. Let's realize this. So, what I think is most interesting is the

Professor's point is that it's always race, it's always race. I've been hearing this about--

DYSON: That's not what I said.

GRIFFIN: --Republicans long before Donald Trump. The - the - the--

DYSON: That's not what I said.

GRIFFIN: --the problem I have with this is - the problem with this I have is that every single time the Democrats decide that they don't have something to talk about, we run to race.

Look, Hillary Clinton ran an entire campaign on identity politics, and she lost. She lost the Obama Coalition. She did a terrible job bringing African-Americans, Hispanics, young people, and others who should be very concerned, and are about race into her camp for the election.

My problem is this. Every single time, people on the Left go after Republicans and Conservatives for race, it doesn't seem to ding this President. Why is that? I don't know.

CUOMO: Let's ask--

DYSON: I got an answer.

GRIFFIN: You think by now some of this would stick.

CUOMO: Let's - let's - let's ask Professor Dyson.

GRIFFIN: But it doesn't stick, Chris.

CUOMO: Why doesn't it stick?

DYSON: Well, first of all, it's not only about race. It's not exclusively about race. It's just it's the fact that, as so many people have said, many Republicans in the Right-wing live in the 51st state, the State of Denial, so they refuse to acknowledge that what is before us is before us.

So, when obvious examples of racial animus, hostility, racial implication, and racial inference are there, they go "Oh, my god, let's look for every other thing." What does Occam's razor say? Let's look for the simplest explanation. There is a desire to manipulate sentiment and passion in this country because of race.

And why doesn't it stick to him? Because, there is a great sea of White supremacy, unconscious bigotry, and just plain, old racism that exists every day where we know that people don't find him at fault. They don't find it problematic.

"Of course, there're good people on both sides. Why do they attack our President? He's simply stating the case." So, my friend, to - to point to the fact that it doesn't stick to the President as an index of whether or not we are concerned about racism, A, or B, whether it exists in the real world, is simply not the case.

And then, it amazes me that my Right-wing brothers and sisters can never acknowledge a - a spade as a spade, so to speak, can never acknowledge when we have a clear example of something that has gone awry, and that is offensive, can never just simply say "Yes, that was wrong--

CUOMO: Well he did say this was a mistake, Mike.

DYSON: --it --it shouldn't be done."

GRIFFIN: Chris - Chris--

CUOMO: He said this was a mistake--

GRIFFIN: Chris, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Let me respond.

CUOMO: --for Don Jr., to do it.

DYSON: This particular instance, absolutely.

CUOMO: Right. Go ahead, Patrick.

GRIFFIN: Let - let me respond, Chris--

CUOMO: Please.

GRIFFIN: --to the Professor. Look, racism is an ugly thing. I think the Professor and I both agree on that.


GRIFFIN: It's a terrible, ugly thing. It has no place in our politics. What I find often is the things the President says and done, and in this case, Donald Jr. has done is offensive.

But, you know, I look at the way race is used on both sides. I think Elizabeth Warren's little game that she played with being a Native American, to promote her own career, to promote her political narrative, that was using race in a different way, and that was equally offensive.

The Professor's right. Using race is a bad thing when you're trying to hurt someone else, and gain politically. But it works both ways.


DYSON: Well here's - but here's this - this false - this - false equivalency. A feather is not an anvil.

There is no doubt that it was offensive that what happened with Elizabeth Warren. But that in no way compares to the constant repetitive theme that is recurring in - in Republican or Right-wing circles.

So, you're absolutely right that on both sides there are offenses, but they are not equal, my friend. And when we look at the - the balance of, at the end of the day, we know that there are so many people who are invested in the kind of race denial, a refusal to acknowledge what's before us.

And when you said before, identity politics, as if White men are not the biggest arbiters of racial identity politics in America, and here's the greatest manifestation of it, to deny you have it.

One of the great privileges of Whiteness--

GRIFFIN: Oh, please, Professor!

DYSON: --is to deny that Whiteness exists.

GRIFFIN: Really?

DYSON: One of the greatest identities - one of the greatest identities of White men--

GRIFFIN: Is this really where we're going to go here?

DYSON: --is to deny the reality that politics of identity have been coming from the very beginning. Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln--

[21:30:00] GRIFFIN: Professor? Professor?

DYSON: --those are politics of identity--

GRIFFIN: Professor?

DYSON: --as well, Sir.

GRIFFIN: Professor? Professor, this racist lounge act that you do, we've been on this discussion--

DYSON: Oh, don't be--


GRIFFIN: --now for almost 2.5 minutes.

DYSON: --Sir. And numbers not--

GRIFFIN: No, no, wait a minute.

CUOMO: Hold on.

DYSON: --not important.

CUOMO: Hold on.

GRIFFIN: We have been on this thing for two minutes.

CUOMO: Hold on, hold on. Fellas--

DYSON: Stick to your point (ph).

CUOMO: --don't talk over each other and also--

GRIFFIN: And it's the first time I haven't heard you call someone--

CUOMO: Patrick, Patrick.

GRIFFIN: --a racist.

CUOMO: Patrick?

GRIFFIN: You haven't called me a racist yet.

CUOMO: Patrick?

GRIFFIN: I'm waiting for that, Sir.

CUOMO: Pat, well you want him to call you that so that you can say, "Look what he did again," and play to the fringe-Right, which you - you shouldn't do either. But on this show--

GRIFFIN: But he always does.

CUOMO: --you will never hear anybody insult you openly on my show. We disagree with decency on this show.

DYSON: Right.

CUOMO: Don't call what the Professor's putting out there a lounge act.

GRIFFIN: That's a good thing.

CUOMO: You can - you can counter it. You can say it's hogwash. But try to keep - we don't disparage here. And I've got to tell you I was going to celebrate--

DYSON: Thank you.

GRIFFIN: I think it's--

CUOMO: --both you guys for having a pretty decent--

GRIFFIN: Chris, Chris, I think it's a broad brush.

CUOMO: --debate. Well here's my last question for you, Patrick. Listen, it's the--

GRIFFIN: Yes, Sir.

CUOMO: A broad brush, I'm using like a sprayer and a roller half the time, just to try to get anything that is acceptable to an audience that wants to be running in different directions.

Here's my question for you. I agree again with your central premise. This President can run this race down the middle on his achievements, if he so chooses. Why this dance with the Right?

GRIFFIN: And he should.

CUOMO: And I don't mean it episodically. It keeps bubbling up, and I don't know why he thinks he needs them. Is Steve Bannon still calling him, and saying, "Don't abandon those people out there in the way Right. You need them."

Why? Why have anything like this in his midst?

GRIFFIN: I like your Steve Bannon impression, by the way. I - listen, I don't know the answer to that, Chris. I think it's offensive to many, many White people when we get down into this awful racism stuff.

It doesn't help anybody. It depresses people from coming out and voting. So, at the end of the day, the American people are going to figure this out. But what's incredible is that, so far, this behavior hasn't seemed to stick to Trump.

CUOMO: Yes. But you know what? I don't like--

GRIFFIN: I'm not telling you that's a good thing.

CUOMO: --I don't like the argument, Patrick. I'll tell you why.

GRIFFIN: I'm telling you I'm a little mystified by it.

CUOMO: No, it's not mystifying. I'll tell you what, it's depressing--

GRIFFIN: It is mystifying to me.

CUOMO: --to me. And I'll tell you why.

DYSON: It is predictable.

CUOMO: It's--

DYSON: And - and depressing.

CUOMO: It's predictable.

DYSON: It is predictable.

CUOMO: And depressing. I'll tell you why it is. Because there are some people, and I only believe it's some. Michael Eric would destroy me on this any night, but this is my feeling. Some of his supporters cotton to these types of beliefs. And the majority of the--

GRIFFIN: It's probably true.

CUOMO: --President's supporters don't care about what he says and does. That's why it doesn't stick to him.

DYSON: Right.

CUOMO: Because we've reached a point of disaffection, and on the Right, that there is a complicity in saying, "Look, I'm getting the judges. I've got my tax cut. He says ugly things. He does ugly things. I expect nothing better from any politician," that's a tough spot for us to be.

I'm trying to get us out of it. That's why I say no open insults on each other, you know, characterizing the other person.

DYSON: It will be - let me--

CUOMO: Attack the arguments. But I got to jump.

DYSON: Right.

CUOMO: I got to jump, Professor.

Michael Eric Dyson, you're very smart. You got Freudian parapraxis. You got Occam's razor. I mean how much can you think you're going to get with the segment?

DYSON: LBJ, pick your pockets. Poor White people would do it for you if you convince them they're better than the lowest Black man. That's what we see going on in the masses of many--

CUOMO: Right.

DYSON: --White societies in this country.

CUOMO: It should stop because we're better than that. Patrick Griffin--

DYSON: Absolutely.

CUOMO: --thank you for making the arguments. You're welcome on this show.

GRIFFIN: Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: Be well.

DYSON: No ad hominem.

CUOMO: Yes, the ad hominem, to person. I don't want to see it on this show. Why? You get enough of it.

We'll get into it. We'll get hot, especially when I'm one-on-one with somebody. I think the testing is helpful. But you got to - we can't be insulting each other. You got to think about your ideas. You got to talk about where you don't agree. You have to find a way forward.

Now, speaking of that, what a doozy of a trip this was to the Far- East? You talk about low expectations and yet still being disappointed. Who made more headlines here at the G20? The President or his daughter?

This is not about media. This is about matter of fact. Ivanka crossed all kinds of lines according to the biographer who's already written a book on what she means in this current environment. She's here next with an addendum, Vicky Ward.








CUOMO: Look, no matter how you want to define the new normal, this that we saw this weekend, no good.

You're supposed to see the President on the world stage, but to just have his daughter, and I'm not attacking her. I'm sure she's a great, smart businessperson, but she's not a diplomat, and she has no business being at the G20.

And if she wasn't at her father's side, she was rubbing elbows with foreign leaders, and there's a video going all over the internet, where they seemed to be discomforted, uncomfortable with her presence.

She even overshadowed the Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo. He had to struggle for a place in a group photo. She had to step aside.

Doesn't work, no fallen - foreign policy experience, and yet, she's able to go where few Americans can, simply because you have this family situation where it does not belong. Nepotism, OK? And it's a problem.

Let's bring in Vicky Ward, Investigative Journalist, best-selling author of Kushner, Inc., joins me now. And, of course, it threads through the influence. But this is no disrespect to her. I'm sure the father wants her there.


CUOMO: So she's doing it. I'm sure she's fine. She has no business being there. And this President needs the best around him.

WARD: Right. Well I think it - it's really dangerous, Chris, because basically what this weekend has done is send a signal to leaders around the world that the American President can be manipulated through his family.

And that is incredibly dangerous, particularly when those family members, Ivanka, and her husband, Jared, have not passed Senate confirmation hearings. They were not, you know, Intelligence experts, didn't even think they should have a security clearance because of their conflicts of interest. You know, I was reading again today, the transcript of the remarks former Secretary of State, Rex Tillerson gave to Congress last week, where he talked about the need to have one foreign policy, the need for the Secretary of State or the Special Envoys to be the ones who negotiated with outside leaders to be effective, and how dangerous it was to having, in his particular testimony, he talked about Jared Kushner, but how dangerous for this country it is to have Jared or Ivanka who are unqualified and inexperienced being channels to their father for negotiators who can manipulate them.

[21:40:00] CUOMO: And you don't know what the priorities are. And again, I'm not painting--

WARD: Right.

CUOMO: --with the brush of anything felonious or anything like that. However, the ethical standard is supposed to be semblance of impropriety. You don't do anything that even someone might think is wrong.

And yet, you have Ivanka cutting deals with her business that supposedly she's removed from--

WARD: Well--

CUOMO: --in China during a trade battle. We heard from Tillerson about what he thought was going on with Kushner, and who he was meeting with behind his back, and why it was always--

WARD: Right.

CUOMO: --seemed somehow business-related to Kushner's business. It just sends the wrong signal.

WARD: It completely sends the wrong signal. And I - and I also have to say that, you know, the - the people who wrote that - well let's not be too hard on Ivanka because this, you know, she does after all talk up women's empowerment.

CUOMO: She does.

WARD: But - but really, Chris, you have to think how empowered does she look as a woman to be standing there in a position like that, simply because she is somebody's daughter? That - that - that is not a very feminist message. In fact, it's the absolute opposite.

And I think this - this weekend, she has managed to undermine her President - the President's cabinet, the Secretary of State, and the national security, so she is really troubling.

CUOMO: Do you believe that the deeper you go, the more problematic it is? Or does it end for you with "Look, he's my father. He wants me there. This is an opportunity that we would have never had, so my husband and I, that's why we're there?"

Or do you still believe, because of the reporting, and what you continue to learn--

WARD: Yes.

CUOMO: --that there is more of an agenda at play?

WARD: No, I think that this - this whole, what we see again and again in plain sight is, you know, a White House that is a family real estate business.

And, you know, the reporting in my book was really all about the deal- making that was going on behind Rex Tillerson's back in the Middle East in real time.

There's a - there's a line in my book that I was really surprised, people didn't pick up on.

The February - the 1st February of this administration, a - a man called Sheikh - HBJ is his nickname, from Qatar, went to see President Trump at Mar-a-Lago. They had a private meeting. This was in February 2017. He went back to the Middle East. He said, basically, "This White House is open for business."

And every time the President uses his family, you know, we all know that the Trump is a family real estate business, it sends a signal to the rest of the world that America - the American Presidency is for sale.

CUOMO: And also, look, an important point for people is, I'm not accusing Ivanka, I'm not accusing Jared, but you don't have to. The standard is, if it looks bad, it is bad, and that's what's been violated, and it's going to create concerns, and we're hearing about them right now.

Vicky Ward, always a pleasure.

WARD: Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: To be continued dot-dot-dot.

So, another story for you. Barely old enough to drive, learner's permit, but man, did you see what she did at Wimbledon? Who is this new young star, the star that she took on, what it means to her, and to history?

Wow! story, next.








CUOMO: 15 years old, Wimbledon, the big stage, and at that age, a young woman beats Venus Wimbledon - Venus Wimbledon, that's what they should call her, Venus Williams.




CUOMO: Wow! Cori "Coco" Gauff shook hands with the superstar telling Venus it was the Williams Sisters who first inspired her to pick up a racquet. This kid is the youngest player to qualify for Wimbledon in the Open Era.

Let's bring in Laura Coates. There is so much about this story, I love. And I loved hearing her talk about what it was like to take on her hero.

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Can you imagine that you took on your hero, you were able to beat her on the Wimbledon Court? I mean think about that.

This is somebody who she said she idolized this woman. And now, here she is, a champion, I can't even imagine.

CUOMO: I mean--

COATES: I really can't.

CUOMO: And, look, I misspoke calling her Venus Wimbledon. But, in truth, she owned that stage, you know, we were just checking before this. I marvel at the age that she's 15, and she's able to put it together like that.

But her role model, you know, Venus went pro at 14. I think she won the Australian Open at like 18. It's amazing to achieve huge things like that on that stage at that age.

COATES: I mean I got to recheck my life choices because when I was 15 years old, Chris, I wasn't winning Wimbledon. I wasn't on the stage with my heroes.

But you know what? What I loved about her is she actually said, you know what, I got - looking at the court, and said, "The lines are the same. This arena is bigger. The platform is bigger. But the line is the same."

And having to calm herself down every single time, she is adorable. But you know what? I don't want to like pat her on the head. She needs to be reckoned with. She's a force now. CUOMO: Oh yes.

COATES: Venus Williams, you took down?



CUOMO: She's the real deal, and she's got so much time to develop, you know. I mean they - look, they make it young in tennis. You know they - they--


CUOMO: You do see these people come up, especially on the women's side, they're very young and in their teen. But now with the new training, and a new coaching, who knows where she could be 10 years from now?

She could be like Serena Williams in terms of staying with her role models. You know, nobody's changed a sport in my lifetime the way Serena Williams changed women's tennis.

COATES: No. And this young girl, I mean, 15 years old, she is poised for greatness. And I loved her composure. I loved that she was able to have the guts in that moment to turn and be gracious, and not to say, "Look, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for you." I mean that - that's a class act.

CUOMO: Oh, yes.

COATES: Winner already!

CUOMO: And it was great. We saw it with Serena too. And yes--


CUOMO: --it matters to me that she's African-American.

[21:50:00] I think it's amazing to see the growth of the sport and to see that all the sacrifice of the Williams early on paid off that they did inspire kids, and yes, African-American kids, to get in to the sport that they love so well.

COATES: And I remember I mean for a time - they're stars now. But they had a very hard time.

CUOMO: Yes, they did.

COATES: People judged their bodies. They judged them because they were Black women. They judged their hair. They judged their physique. They judged their game. And here you have, having someone idolize, who I idolized as a child as well, I mean this is amazing.

And you know what? It speaks volumes, and I'm proud to see this young woman and all of them. CUOMO: Very impressive all the way across the board. All right, Counselor, I'll see you in a second.

COATES: See you soon.

CUOMO: Laura Coates is in for D. Lemon tonight. That's called an upgrade.

All right, so some praise, but also we've got to make the right point, the lawmakers going down to the Border - Border, Bravo and Brava for them going down there. However, let's keep it straight what they knew, and let's keep it straight what they need to do.

The argument, next.








[21:55:00] CUOMO: Objectively, we should applaud the Congressional Hispanic Caucus for leading a delegation to the Border today. They did their jobs. They toured some of the facilities, and they were horrified.


REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): One of the women said that she was told by an agent to drink water out of the toilet.

REP. JUDY CHU (D-CA): I will never forget the image being in a cell and seeing 15 women, tears coming down their faces.

REP. LORI TRAHAN (D-MA): There were times when I walked through these facilities and I was enraged. And there were times when I walked through this facility and I was brought to my knees in tears.


CUOMO: The key is they keep saying, "You know, I can't believe it's like this," and they get emotional, listen.


REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): They were drinking water out of the toilet. And that was them knowing a Congressional visit was coming. That was - this is CBP on their best behavior telling people to drink out of the toilet.


CUOMO: First, this is also Congress on their best behavior. CBP denies that people are drinking from toilets. It's going to be investigated. We'll find out what the real situation is, and expose it.

Here's my argument. Why is Congress acting surprised? I'm glad they're upset. Everybody should be upset, for months - because they were told what they needed to know months ago.

The Customs and Border Commissioner, and Acting DHS Secretary now, has testified to Congress six times this year. Now, now they want to own reality. Great! I'm not going to do a shame campaign. What happens next?

Yes, they finally agreed to send more than $4 billion. There are fundamental rules and practices however that are still in place and that are more apart of the problem than they are of the solution, so what are they going to do?

How are they going to figure out how to engage the Triangle Countries and Mexico in a way that improves situations there, so there is less need to risk so much here? This administration is cutting funding. What are they going to do about it?

All we're hearing though is a blame game. That's why I'm calling it out, all right?

Look, if there's proof of specific abuses by our Border men and women, the people protecting us, then we've got to get after that, and we have to expose it, but don't demonize them now, like you've discussed, and now found something new.

Most of the conditions that are bad are out of their control. Finger- pointing from Right to Left is inaccurate and unhelpful.

And then there's our President. He made his name selling this Border problem. Be honest! And now his defenders from the political fringe are saying the rest of us are seeing that he was right. Wrong!

Here's the President in the fall.


DONALD J. TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You have many criminals in that Caravan.

Made up of some very tough young people, very tough, criminals, in some cases, in many cases.

They got a lot of rough people in those caravans. They are not angels.


CUOMO: That was his message. And you know it. That's why I termed it the Brown Menace. Then what happens? He keeps being told "It's the kids, it's the kids, and the people coming with them, we can't handle it. Help us! Help us! Help us!"

So then, he goes from Brown Menace, and he starts to add in the humanitarian part. It was new to him, not the rest of us. Listen.


TRUMP: This is a humanitarian crisis, a crisis of the heart, and a crisis of the soul.


CUOMO: Now, he didn't mention the kids the first time. He didn't really talk about the kids that time either, but soul indeed.

And yet, this President pushed what as a fix? A fence, which clearly wasn't the remedy, and he was told that too. And if that isn't clear to you now, I can't help you. Fences help. But they were never the fix for this.

Will we see our President tour the facilities? He went to tour the fence that wasn't being built the way he said it was when he went there. Will you hear him talk about the kids and their hardships, not just humanitarian crisis?

All right, he's selling fear. These faces, they don't sell fear, but they should fuel your fire. Our lawmakers are late to this game. There's a lot more they need to address to help these kids and the ones yet to come.

Our President signed their bill into law today, but let's be honest, he'd rather emphasize with despots than the desperate. He sees these kids, and the masses coming with them, as more of a threat than Kim Jong-un and Iran if you listen to him about how measured he is with those despots, and how tough he is on these people.

Know this. The money's going to help, but it's not going to help overnight. There is a lot more to be done. We must stay on this. That's it for us.

CNN TONIGHT with Laura Coates, in for D. Lemon, right now.