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Robert Mueller Testifies to Congress on Trump and Russia. Aired 2:30-3p ET
Aired July 24, 2019 - 14:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:30:00] SWALWELL: Someone with ties to Russian intelligence. Is that correct?
MUELLER: That's - that's true.
SWALWELL: And your investigation was hampered by Trump campaign official's use of encryption communications. Is that right?
MUELLER: We believe that to be the case.
SWALWELL: You also believe to be the case that your investigation was hampered by deletion of electronic messages. Is that correct?
MUELLER: It would be, yes. Generally any case would be if those kinds of communications are - are used.
SWALWELL: For example you noted that deputy campaign manager Rick Gates who shared internal campaign polling data with the person with ties to Russian intelligence at the direction of Manafort that Mr. Gates deleted those communications on a daily basis. Is that right?
MUELLER: I think it were - I'm saying, I don't know specifically but if it's in the report then I support it.
SWALWELL: That's right Director. It's Volume 1, page 136.
MUELLER: Thank you.
SWALWELL: In addition to that, other information was inaccessible because your office determined it was protected by attorney-client privilege. Is that correct?
MUELLER: That is true.
SWALWELL: That would include that you do not know whether communications between Donald Trump and his personal attorneys Jay Sekulow, Rudy Giuliani, and others discouraged witnesses from cooperating with the government. Is that right?
MUELLER: I'm not going to talk to that.
SWALWELL: That would also mean that you can't talk to whether or not pardons were dangled through the president's attorneys because of the shield of attorney-client privilege. MUELLER: No. I'm not going to discuss that.
SWALWELL: Did you want to interview Donald Trump, Jr.?
MUELLER: I'm not going to discuss that.
SWALWELL: Did you subpoena Donald Trump, Jr.?
MUELLER: And I'm not going to discuss that.
SWALWELL: Did you want to interview the president?
MUELLER: Yes.
SWALWELL: Director Mueller, on January 1, 2017, through March 2019, Donald Trump met with Vladimir Putin in person 6 times, called him 10 times and exchanged 4 letters with him. Between that time period, how many times did you meet with Donald Trump?
MUELLER: I'm not going to - I'm not going to get into that.
SWALWELL: He did not meet with you in person. Is that correct?
MUELLER: He did not.
SWALWELL: As a result of lies, deletion of text messages, obstruction and witness tampering, is it fair to say that you were unable to fully assess the scope and scale of Russia's interference in the 2016 election and Trump's role in that interference?
MUELLER: I'm not certain I would adopt that characterization in total; maybe pieces of it that are accurate but in total.
SWALWELL: But you did state in Volume 1, page 10 that while this report embodies factual and legal determinations, the office believes it to be accurate and complete to the greatest extent possible given these identified gaps, the office cannot rule out the possibility that the unavailable information would shed additional light. Is that correct?
MUELLER: That is correct. We don't know what we don't know.
SWALWELL: Why is it so important that witnesses cooperate and tell the truth in an investigation like this?
MUELLER: Because the testimony of the witness goes to the heart of just about any criminal case you have.
SWALWELL: Thank you and Mr. Chairman, I yield back. And thank you Director Mueller.
SCHIFF: Ms. Stefanik.
STEFANIK: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Mueller, as special counsel did you review documents related to the origin of the counterintelligence investigation into the Trump campaign? MUELLER: On occasion.
STEFANIK: Was the Steele dossier one of those documents that was reviewed.
MUELLER: Yes and I can't discuss that case.
STEFANIK: I'm just asking a process question. Have you read the Steele dossier?
MUELLER: Yes, and again I'm not going to respond to that.
STEFANIK: You were tasked as special counsel to investigate whether there was collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign associates to interfere with the 2016 election and the FBI, we know, has relevant documents and information related to the opening of the CIA investigation. Were you and your team permitted to access all of those documents?
MUELLER: And again, I can't get into that investigative - what we - what we collected and what we're doing with the investigation - investigation materials.
STEFANIK: Let me ask it this way, was there any limitation in your access to documents related to the counterintelligence ....
MUELLER: That's such a broad question, I have real trouble answering it.
STEFANIK: Did the special counsel's office undertake any efforts to investigate and verify or disprove allegations contained in the Steele dossier?
MUELLER: Again, I can't respond.
STEFANIK: The reason I'm asking for the American public that's watching, it's apparent that the Steele Dossier formed part of the basis to justify the FBI's counterintelligence investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election. As we know it was used to obtain a FISA warrant on Carter Page. This is why I'm asking these questions. Did your office undertake any efforts to identify Steele's sources or subsources?
MUELLER: Again, the same answer.
STEFANIK: Were these tasks referred to any other agencies?
[14:35:00] MUELLER: Again, I can't speak to it.
STEFANIK: Did your office consider whether the Russian government used Steele's sources to provide Steele with disinformation.
MUELLER: Again, I can't speak to that.
STEFANIK: I understand. I'm asking these questions just for the record so thanks for your patience. Shifting gears here, did any member of the special counsel's office staff travel overseas as part of the investigation?
MUELLER: Yes, but I can't go further than that.
STEFANIK: I'm going to ask to which countries?
MUELLER: And I can't answer that.
STEFANIK: Did they meet with foreign government officials?
MUELLER: Again, it's out of our - out of our bailiwick.
STEFANIK: Did they meet with foreign private citizens?
MUELLER: Again, same response.
STEFANIK: Did they seek information about a U.S. citizen, or any U.S. citizens?
MUELLER: Again, a territory that I cannot go to.
STEFANIK: Thank you for answering on the record, these are important questions for the American public and we're hopeful that the I.G. is able to answer these questions. I will yield the balance of my time to the Ranking Member.
NUNES: Thank the gentle lady for yielding. Mr. Mueller I want to go back to, we started off with Joseph Mifsud whose at the center of this investigation, he appears in your report a dozen times or more.
He really is the epicenter, he's at the origin of this. He's the man who supposedly knows about Clinton's e-mails. You've seen on the screen the Democrats can only put up all the prosecutions that you made against Trump, campaign officials and others.
But I'm struggling to understand why you didn't indict Joseph Mifsud who seems to be the man in the middle of all of this?
MUELLER: Well I think you understand that you cannot get in to either classified or law enforcement information without a rationale for doing it and I have said all I'm going to be able to say with regard to Mr. Mifsud.
NUNES: Were you aware of Kathleen Kavalec's involvement, that she had met with Ms. Steele, the State Department official --
MUELLER: Again, I can't respond to that question, it's outside my jurisdiction.
NUNES: OK. The Carter Page FISA warrant was reupped (ph) three times, the last time it was reupped was under your watch -- so were you in the approval process of that last time that the Carter Page warrant was --
MUELLER: Well I can't speak specifically about that warrant, but if you asked was I an the approval chain, the answer is no.
NUNES: OK, that's very helpful. Thank you Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
SCHIFF: Mr. Castro.
CASTRO: Thank you Chairman, thank you Special Counsel Mueller for your testimony and for your service to our country. Donald Trump over the years has surrounded himself with some very shady people -- people that lied for him, people that covered up for him, people that helped him enrich himself. I want to talk specifically about one of those instances that's in your report.
Specifically let's turn to the Trump Tower Moscow project, which you described in your report as, "a highly lucrative deal for the Trump Organization," is that right?
MUELLER: I would have to look at the quote from the report if you have it?
CASTRO: Sure, it's on volume two, page 135. It's described at highly lucrative.
MUELLER: OK, I have it --
CASTRO: Sure.
MUELLER: Thank you, sir.
CASTRO: Yeah, no problem. Your office prosecuted Michael Cohen, and Michael Cohen was Donald Trump's lawyer, for lying to this Committee about several aspects of the Trump organization's pursuit of the Trump Tower Moscow deal, is that right?
MUELLER: That is correct.
CASTRO: According to your report, Cohen lied to "minimize links between the project and Trump," and to "stick to the party line... in order not to contradict Trump's public message that connected existed between Trump and Russia," is that right?
MUELLER: Yes, that's correct.
CASTRO: Now when you're talking about the party line here, the party line in this case --
MUELLER: If I could interject, the one thing I should have said at the outset -- it was in the report, and consequently I do believe it to be true.
[14:40:00] CASTRO: Thank you. The party line in this case was that the deal ended in January 2016, in other words they were saying that the deal ended in January 2016 before the Republican primaries. In truth though, the deal extended to June 2016, when Donald Trump was already the presumptive Republican nominee, is that correct?
MUELLER: That is correct.
CASTRO: The party line was also that Cohen discussed the deal with Trump only three times, when in truth they discussed it multiple times, is that right?
MUELLER: Also true in the basis for -- and part of the basis for that plea that he entered (ph) for lying to this entity.
CASTRO: Thank you -- and thank you for prosecuting that. The party line was also that Cohen and Trump never discussed traveling to Russia during the campaign when in truth they did discuss it, is that right?
MUELLER: That's accurate.
CASTRO: And the party line was that Cohen never received a response from the Kremlin to his inquiries about the Trump Tower Moscow deal. In fact, Cohen not only received a response from the Kremlin to his e- mail, but also had a lengthy conversation with a Kremlin representative who had a detailed understanding of the project, is that right?
MUELLER: If it's in the -- if it's in the report that is accurate representation of that piece of the report.
CASTRO: So you had the candidate Trump at the time saying he had no business dealings with Russia, his lawyer who was lying about it and then the Kremlin who during that time was talking to President Trump's lawyer about the deal.
MUELLER: Well, I can't adopt your characterization.
CASTRO: Not only was Cohen lying on Trump's behalf, but so was the Kremlin. On August 30, 2017 two days after Cohen submitted his false statement to this Committee, claiming that he never received a response to his e-mail to the Kremlin. Vladimir Putin's Press Secretary told reporters that the Kremlin left the e-mail unanswered.
That statement by Putin's Press Secretary was false, wasn't it?
MUELLER: I can't speak to that.
CASTRO: Although it was widely reported in the press.
MUELLER: Again, I can't speak to that particularly if it was dependent upon media sources.
CASTRO: But it was consistent with the lie that Cohen had made to the Committee, is that right?
MUELLER: I'm not sure if I could go that far.
CASTRO: So Cohen, President Trump and the Kremlin were all telling the same lie?
MUELLER: I defer to you on that -- I can't get in to details.
CASTRO: Special Counsel Mueller I want to ask you something that's very important to the nation -- did your investigation evaluate whether President Trump could be vulnerable to blackmail by the Russians because the Kremlin knew that Trump and his associates lied about connections to Russia related to the Trump Tower deal?
MUELLER: I can't speak to that.
CASTRO: I yield back Chairman.
SCHIFF: Mr. Hurd.
HURD: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Director Mueller you've been asked many times this afternoon about collusion, obstruction of justice, and impeachment, and the Steele dossier -- and I don't think your answers are going to change if I ask you about those questions.
So I'm going to ask about a couple of press stories, because a lot of what the American people have received about this have been on press stories, and some of that has been wrong and some of that -- some of those press stories have been accurate.
On April 13, 2018 McLatchy (ph) reported that you had evidence Michael Cohen made a secret trip to Prague during the 2016 presidential election. I think he told the -- one of the Committees here in Congress that was incorrect, is that story true?
MUELLER: I can't -- I can't go in to it.
HURD: Got you. On October 31st, 2016, Slate published a report suggesting that a server at Trump tower was secretly communicating with Russia's alpha bank. And I quote, "akin to what criminal syndicates do." Do you know if that story is true?
MUELLER: Do not. Do not.
HURD: You do not?
MUELLER: Do not know if it's true.
HURD: So did you not investigate these allegations that are suggestive of potential Trump/Russia...
MUELLER: Because I don't believe it not true doesn't mean it would not investigate it. It may have been investigated, but my belief at this point is (ph) not true.
HURD: Good, copy. Thank you. As a former CIA officer, I want to focus on something I think both sides of the political aisle can agree on. That is how do we prevent Russian intelligence and other adversaries from doing this again? After overseeing counterintelligence operations for 12 years as FBI director, and then investigating what the Russians have done in the 2016 election, you've seen tactics, techniques, and results of Russian intelligence operations.
[14:45:00] Our committee made a recommendation that the FBI should improve its victim notification process when a person, entity, or campaign has fallen victim to active measures attack (ph). Could you agree with this -- with this?
MUELLER: It sounds like a worthwhile endeavor. I will tell you, though, that the ability of our intelligence agencies to work together in this arena is perhaps more important than that. And adopting whatever -- and I'm not that familiar with legislation, but whatever legislation will encourage us working together -- by us, I mean the FBI, CIA, NSA, and the rest -- it should be pursued aggressively early.
HURD: Who do you think should be responsible within the federal government to counter disinformation?
MUELLER: I'm no longer in the federal government so...
HURD: But you've had a long storied career, and I don't think there's anybody who better understands the threat that we are facing than you. Do you have an opinion as a former FBI officer?
MUELLER: As to?
HURD: As to who should be the coordinating points within the federal government on how to deal?
MUELLER: I don't want to wade in those waters.
HURD: Good, copy. One of the most striking things in your report is that the Internet Research Agency not only on its social media campaign in the U.S., but they were able to organize political rallies after the election. Our committee issued a report (inaudible) saying that Russian active measures are growing with frequency and intensity and including their expanded use of groups such as the IRA. And these groups pose a significant threat to the United States and our allies in upcoming elections. Would you agree with that?
MUELLER: Yes. In fact, one of the other areas that we have to look at, and many more companies -- not companies -- many more countries are developing capability to replicate what the Russians had done.
HURD: You -- you alluded to making sure all the elements of the federal government should be working together. Do you have a suggestion on a strategy to do that to counter this information?
MUELLER: Not overarching.
HURD: Is this -- in your investigation, did you think this was a single attempt by the Russians to get involved in our election, or did you find evidence to suggest they'll try to do this again?
MUELLER: It wasn't a single attempt. The doing it as we sit here, and they expect to do it during the next campaign.
HURD: Director Mueller, I appreciate your time in indulging us here in multiple committees. And I yield back to the ranking member if he has -- I yield back to the chairman.
SCHIFF: Mr. Heck.
HECK: Director Mueller, I would like to go to the motives behind the Trump campaign encouragement and acceptance of help during the election. Obviously clear motivation is to help them in what would turn out to be a very close election. But there was another key motivation and that was frankly the desire to make money. I always try to remember what my dad who never had the opportunity to go beyond the 8th grade taught me, which was that I should never ever underestimate the capacity of some people to cut corners and even more, in order to worship and chase the almighty buck.
And this is important because I think it in fact does go to the heart of why the Trump campaign was so unrelentingly intent on developing relationships with the Kremlin. So, let's quickly revisit one financial scheme we just discussed which was the Trump tower in Moscow. We indicated earlier that it was a lucrative deal. Trump, in fact, stood in his company to earn many millions of dollars on that deal, did they not, sir?
MUELLER: True.
HECK: And Cohen, Mr. Cohen, his attorney, testified before this committee that President Trump believed the deal required Kremlin approval. Is that consistent with what he told you?
MUELLER: I'm not certain whether Mr. Trump himself or others associated with that enterprise, had discussed the necessity of having the input with the state, meaning the Russian government, in order for it to go forward successfully.
HECK: Isn't it also true that Donald Trump viewed his presidential campaign as he told top campaign aides that the campaign was an infomercial for the Trump organization and his properties?
MUELLER: I'm not familiar with that.
HECK: Let's turn to Trump Campaign Chair Paul Manafort. Did in fact your investigation find any evidence that Manafort intended to use his position as Trump's campaign chair for his own personal financial benefit?
[14:50:00] MUELLER: I would say there was some indication of that, but I won't go further.
HECK: I think you'll find it on page 135 of Volume 1, during the transition, Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner met with Sergei Gorkov, the head of a Russian-owned bank that was under -- is under U.S. sanctions. And according to the head of the bank, he met with Kushner in his capacity as CEO of Kushner Companies to discuss business opportunities, is that correct, sir?
MUELLER: I'm not certain. I'm not certain about that, let me just put it that way.
HECK: It was asserted thusly in your report, Volume 1, pages 161 and 162 . Your report notes that at the time Kushner Companies were trying to renegotiate a billion -- with a B -- a billion dollar lease of their flag shipbuilding at 666 5th avenue, correct?
MUELLER: I'm not familiar with those financial arrangements. HECK: Also on page 162, where Kushner Companies, it was asserted, had
dead obligations (ph) coming due on the company. Erik Prince, a supporter close to Trump...
MUELLER: A supporter.
HECK: Yes. He met in the Seychelles during the transition with Kirill Dmitriev, who was the head of a sanctioned Russian government investment arm which has close ties to Vladimir Putin, correct, sir?
MUELLER: Yes.
HECK: Your investigation determined that Mr. Prince had not known or conducted business with Dmitriev before Trump won the election, correct?
MUELLER: I defer to the report on that.
HECK: Yet it does, and yet Prince, who had connections to top administration - Trump administration officials, met with Dimitriev during the transition period and discussed business opportunities among other things. But it wasn't just Trump and his associates who were trying to make money off this deal nor hide it nor lie about it. Russia was, too. That was the whole point to gain relief from sanctions which would hugely benefit their incredibly wealthy oligarchs.
For example, sanctions relief was discussed at that June 9 meeting in the Trump Tower. Was it not, sir?
MUELLER: Yes, but it was not a main subject of floor discussion (ph).
HECK: Trump administration National Security Advisor designate Michael Flynn also discussed sanctions in a secret conversation with the Russian ambassador. Did he not?
MUELLER: Correct.
HECK: So to summarize, Donald Trump, Michael Cohen, Paul Manafort, Jared Kushner, Erik Prince, and others in the Trump orbit all tried to use their connections with the Trump organization to profit from Russia which was openly seeking relief from sanctions. Is that true, sir?
MUELLER: I'm not certain I can adopt what you're...
HECK: Well, I will and I'd further assert that was not only dangerous, it was un-American. Greed corrupts. Greed corrupts and it is a terrible foundation for developing American foreign policy.
SCHIFF: Mr. Ratcliffe.
RATCLIFFE: Director Mueller, given your constraints on what you're able or allowed to answer with respect to counterintelligence matters or other matters that are currently open under investigation, you're not going to be able to answer my remaining questions, so I thank you for your courtesies and the answers that you have given to my prior questions, and I do thank you for your extraordinary career and record of service and yield the balance of my time to the Ranking Member.
MUELLER: Thank you.
NUNES: Thank you, Mr. Ratcliffe. And Mr. Mueller, let me associate my words with Mr. Ratcliffe. There are a few more questions. I want to clean up a little bit about the Erik Prince Seychelles meeting.
So Erik Prince testified before this Committee that he was surveilled by the U.S. government and the information form the surveillance was leaked to the press. Did you investigate whether Prince was surveilled and whether classified information on him was illegally leaked to the media?
MUELLER: Did you say did you or will you?
NUNES: Well, I know you can't. I know you're not going...
MUELLER: So I can't discuss either way.
NUNES: I know you're not going to join it back up in the ranks, but did you refer - were you aware that Prince has made these allegations that he was surveilled. He's concerned that there were leaks about this surveillance. Did you make any referrals about these...
MUELLER: I can't get into discussion on it.
[14:55:00] NUNES: OK. Also on General Flynn, I know you came after the leak of his phone call with the Russian ambassador. Your time at FBI, it would be a major scandal, wouldn't it, for the leak of the national security advisor and anyone...
MUELLER: I can't - I can't adopt that hypothesis.
NUNES: Did your report name any people who were acting as U.S. government informants or sources without disclosing that fact?
MUELLER: I can't answer that.
NUNES: On Volume 1, page 133 of your report, you state the Konstantin Kilimnik has ties to Russian intelligence. His name's came up quite often today. The report omits to mention that Kilimnik has long-term relationships with U.S. government officials including our own State Department.
MUELLER: I can't be - I can't get into that.
NUNES: I know it's not in the report, but, you know, if Kilimnik is being used in the report to say that he was possibly some type of Russian agent, then I think it is important for this Committee to know if Kilimnik has ties to our own State Department, which it appears that he does.
MUELLER: Again, it's the same territory that I'm low (ph) to get into. NUNES: You were asked this earlier about Trump attorney, John Dowd, that pieces of his phone call were omitted from the report. It was what Mr. Dowd calls exculpatory evidence. Are you concerned...
MUELLER: I'm not - I'm not certain I would agree with that characterization, and I think I said that before.
NUNES: Yes. And American citizen from the Republic of Georgia, who your report misidentifies as a Russians, claims that your report omitted parts of a text message he had with Michael Cohen about stopping the flow of compromising tapes of Donald Trump.
In the omitted portions, he says he did not know what the tapes actually showed. As that portion of the exchange left out of the report for a reason?
MUELLER: No. We got an awful lot in the report, but we did not get every intersection or conversation and the like. So I am not familiar with that particular episode you're talking about.
NUNES: Thank you, Mr. Mueller. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
SCHIFF: Mr. Welch.
WELCH: Director Mueller, did you find there was no collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia?
MUELLER: Well, we don't use the word collusion, and the word we usually use is not collusion but one of the other terms that fills in when collusion is not used. In any event, the - we decided not to use the work collusion in as much as it has no relevance to the criminal law arena.
WELCH: The term is conspiracy that you prefer to use?
MUELLER: That's right. Conspiracy, exactly right.
WELCH: You help me, I'll help you...
MUELLER: Thank you.
WELCH: ... it's an agreement (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
And in fact, you had to then make a charging decision after your investigation where unless it was enough evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt you wouldn't make a charge, correct?
MUELLER: Generally that's the case.
WELCH: But making that decision does not mean your investigation failed to turn up evidence of conspiracy.
MUELLER: Absolutely correct. WELCH: And in fact, I'll go through some of the significant findings that your exhaustive investigation made. You found, as I understand it, that from May 2016 until the end of the campaign, campaign chairman, Mr. Manafort, gave private polling information to Russian agents, correct? And...
SCHIFF: Can you speak in the microphone?
MUELLER: Yes, I will. My apologies.
WELCH: ... your - thank you. And your investigation found that in June 2016 Donald Trump Jr. made an arrangement to meet at Trump Tower along with Jared Kushner and others expecting to receive dirt on the Hillary Clinton campaign. Correct?
MUELLER: Correct.
WELCH: And you found in your investigation that on July 27, candidate Trump called on Russia to hack Hillary Clinton's e-mail, something for the first time they did about five hours later.
[15:00:00]
