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Inside Politics

Warren and Sanders Face off in Debate; High-Stakes Democratic Debate; Trump Aides Balk at Cummings Attack Strategy. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 30, 2019 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:21] JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS. I'm John King. Thank you for sharing your day with us.

And a big day it is. It is debate day right here in Detroit. Ten candidates on stage tonight, including the two leading liberals in the Democratic field, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.

Plus, the Republican incumbent weighs in. President Trump says he still thinks Joe Biden will eventually emerge as the Democratic nominee, but the president says he'll be watching the next two nights so that he can size up the others.

And this note to our moderators, Dana Bash, Don Lemon and Jake Tapper, you better bring your a-game tonight because young Jared is waiting in the wings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Um, yes, what separates you from the other candidates?

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, I can only tell you about why I'm in this fight. I see an America that works better and better and better for a thinner and thinner slice at the top.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Always good to see the young kids getting involved there.

We begin the hour with tonight's high-stakes debate right here in the Fox Theater behind us in Detroit. Ten candidates in focus this evening, Pete Buttigieg, Beto O'Rourke, Amy Klobuchar, Steve Bullock, Tim Ryan, John Hickenlooper, John Delaney, Marianne Williamson, Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Warren and Sanders are center stage because their polling is the strongest among these 10. Each needs the others' votes to grow. But both say don't expect a Sanders/Warren brawl tonight.

What Warren and Sanders share is the conviction that Democrats need to toss moderation out the window and go big with liberal policy ideas. That common ground could make them allies for much of tonight's sparring. That's because on both sides of Sanders and Warren are more moderate candidates who argue the country can't afford and general election voters won't support a Democratic nominee pushing things like Medicare for all, the green new deal and free college tuition in one national election.

Senator Warren, on a methodical climb in both national and early state polls, telling reporters last night in Ohio, she'll just stick to her plans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm not against anyone. Bernie and I have been friends forever. I think what happens tomorrow night is we all have a chance to talk about our vision for America, to talk about our plans for America, to talk about how we see building a future in this country. And that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to talk about my plans to make this America work, not just for a thin slice at the top, but make it work for everyone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: With me on a beautiful day in Detroit to share their reporting and their insights, Toluse Olorunnipa with "The Washington Post," Jackie Kucinich with "The Daily Beast," CNN's Maeve Reston and Alex Burns with "The New York Times."

Let's start -- let's start with the two candidates at the center. If you look at the math in the race, at some point Sanders and Warren, make they don't have to fight with each other but their growth depends on each other. One has to fade. One has to go.

Warren has been ascendant. She thinks she can kind of win this fight just by being there. She doesn't have to have a fight with Bernie Sanders.

Sanders is coming down. And he had high expectations when he got into the race. Will they just be fending off the moderates all night or will they have a moment?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: It sounds like they're going to spend a lot of time sort of talking about a progressive vision for America. You saw Senator Warren say that she'd been friends with Bernie Sanders. She's not going to try to go on the attack against him. It seems like, at this point, they're going to try to focus on their progressive vision, focus on what they have in common, the green new deal, Medicare for all, big, bold, progressive ideas, even as they fend off challenges from some of the moderates on the stage who say that those ideas are unworkable, are too far -- are too far to the left or are going to drive away independent voters.

So it does sound like, at least from Senator Warren's position, that she's not willing or looking to get into a big fight on the stage with Bernie Sanders, at least not at this stage. She may think it's too early to make that fight. But they're going to have a lot of challenges from the left and the right on the stage, people who are on the flanks who are more moderate, who are looking to make a name for themselves trying to get to the center stage.

KING: Right. And as we continue the conversation, to that point, she doesn't think she needs to have the fight right now because she's doing quite fine as she is. Let's look first at the national polling in the race.

Joe Biden on top. He's tomorrow night. Kamala Harris in the race in the top four. She's tomorrow night. Sanders and Warren here. But if you look at the polling here, Joe Biden up here. Look at the track for Senator Warren. She starts pretty low at the beginning of the race. She's now in second place. She's now in second place in the national polls.

And then you bring it over to this dynamic here where you come in here -- come among more choice for nominees among many very liberal voters. Bernie Sanders thought this was his base. This was his base in 2016. Look what has happened. Look what has happened. Elizabeth Warren now running twice as strong as Bernie Sanders among very liberal voters.

Warren doesn't need the fight. Does Sanders?

ALEX BURNS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think he might.

MAEVE RESTON, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER: He does, yes.

BURNS: And I think he certainly needs to show, in response to some of these attacks from moderates, that he can speak to a set of voters who aren't necessarily already sold on all of his ideas. That Warren has actually shown a certain amount of range in this race in terms of being able to go into relatively moderate context, even conservative parts of the country, and frame her ideas as directly relevant to those people. Bernie Sanders sort of plays the same song in every venue. Doesn't mean that he doesn't have appeal in red states. He certainly does to the sort of economic populist base there. But I think for a lot of Democrats who have a hangover from 2016 or who are suspicious of the idea that someone who calls himself a Democratic socialist can win a general election --

[12:05:34] JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

KING: Right.

BURNS: The contrast between how the two of them field criticism from people like a John Hickenlooper, a John Delaney, who probably sound a lot like the moderate white guy voters out there, who may find some of these ideas interesting but have reservations about the cost or the feasibility or just the viability in a general election, that contrast should be really revealing.

RESTON: And there's just no question, being out there, that it's not just Warren who's doing the work and staying until the last voter on the rope line, but it's also her people who are, you know, in these communities. I was in eastern Iowa, for example, and her people were doing a roundtable with black business owners. They have really like laid the roots in a lot of these communities. And I think that's so much a part of why you're seeing that steady rise, that investment. And it really does feel like Bernie Sanders needs to make a compelling argument as to why he would be a better messenger for what is a very similar message with both of them.

KING: And it's odd, if you look at their polling. They both get liberal support. Elizabeth Warren tends to gets more college educated higher income. Bernie Sanders getting more of the lower income, under $50,000 blue collar. But, again, if you want to do the math and put together the broader liberal coalition in the Democratic primary, they need each other.

Let's -- I want to move on to some of these moderates in a moment, but let's get to the idea. They say they're friends. They're friendly. They're not really friends. He's still mad she didn't endorse in 2016. She gets -- it gets under her skin when he says, I can lead a movement. She's bright, she's intelligent, she's a great ally. Only I can beat Trump. Only I can lead a movement.

The question is, can they set that aside tonight because they're going to be defending what is the defining challenge in the race. They are the two candidates who -- two leading candidates who say, forget how Hillary Clinton did it. Forget even how Barack Obama did it. Go bigger, go bolder, we can sell it to the country. A lot of moderates say, no, you can't, but they say the answer's yes.

KUCINICH: Well, so, let's remember, at the onset, when Warren first got in, you had some Bernie Sanders people starting to take shots at Elizabeth Warren and he didn't like it. He pulled them back. And I think that's been a good place for Bernie Sanders not taking shots at Warren. So I do think you're going to have this detente (ph) between the two of them, not that they've even been a hot war (ph) or anything at this point, because they want to talk about their policies, they want to have that contrast.

And Alex mentioned this, but I really think that the fact that Bernie Sanders is not a Democrat really doesn't sit well with some voters. And that -- that is going to be -- that will always be a stumbling block. And his people have not been able to talk him into that registration.

RESTON: Especially the voters in the middle. The voters here in the industrial Midwest who kind of, you know, they like Sanders' message and the fighter (ph) are kind of into it. But -- but they really -- you know, ideas like Medicare for all are just a step too far for many of them, especially if you are a union household, you've worked hard for your benefits. And she just explains things sometimes better than he does and -- and breaks them down, you know?

KUCINICH: She's very good on the stump.

KING: It's all -- it's interesting, a lot of Democratic voters thank him for running in 2016, but they kind of frame it that he's done his job, now it's time to move on. See that -- he has to deal with -- he has to deal with that dynamic and to think that. But let's get into this because as you look, let's show the lineup of

the debate tonight. You have, again, the two leading progressives right here at center stage, Sanders and Warren. And, again, they make the case the party needs to take the risk. Go for Medicare for all. Go for the green new deal. Go for free college tuition. Do it all in one national election. Can the Democrats sell that? Walter Mondale wasn't that liberal. Michael Dukakis wasn't that liberal. But they say the times have changed.

Who's going to argue? Steve Bullock, making his first debate, the governor of Montana, says, no, I won a Trump state, you can't sell that. John Delaney, former congressman, says no. John Hickenlooper, former governor of Colorado, says no. Pete Buttigieg, to a degree, says no. Amy Klobuchar, the senator, says no. So they're going to have this moderate incoming. Most of these moderates are in trouble. Most of the moderates are struggling in the race. Which one or what do we expect and which one are we looking to, to be most aggressive?

BURNS: Look, I don't know about aggressive, but I think that the model for a moderate in this race -- the path for a moderate in this race isn't just about attacking the folks who are further to their left. It's hard to see somebody really taking off in this primary with a message of, we actually can't do -- we can't have nice things.

KUCINICH: Right.

BURNS: We can't go that big, right?

KING: Right.

BURNS: And it can't just be a message of caution.

I think Pete Buttigieg is really instructive in that respect, right? He's running on a more ideologically moderate message. But there's a vision there about generational change that Democrats find interesting. I think it's part of why Steve Bullock is really a potentially interesting figure on the debate because his profile, as the governor -- the sitting governor of a deep red state where he has accomplished some, you know, moderately progressive things is sort of interesting because he could maybe speak to Democrats' aspirations that not in just a sort of scolding, rain on the parade kind of way.

[12:10:09] KUCINICH: But there is incentive to really step out and to --

RESTON: Yes.

KUCINICH: I mean maybe not take a shot at Warren and Sanders, but several of those moderates need a moment. They're not going to qualify for the September debate if they don't find a way to stand out and --

RESTON: Raise money.

KUCINICH: Yes, raise money.

KING: Right. KUCINICH: And this is the forum to do it.

BURNS: It's just hard to see John Delaney having like a -- that little health -- that little health care executive was me moment on this debate stage, right?

RESTON: And Amy Klobuchar, obviously, has been making this argument as well that, you know, that Democrats can hold on to Minnesota and that she knows how to win in these areas. But that clearly is not a big selling point so far with Democratic voters. That's not what they want to hear right now.

KING: And this challenge -- this is the define -- this is a defining state in this challenge. There are some Democrats who say, you've got to turn out more voters right here in Wayne County. More African- American voters, more liberal-progressive voters. Others would say, you were in Macomb County the other day, no, no, it's the white working class people who voted for Obama and then switched and went for trump.

And, again, the question is, is it an either/or for the party or is there a candidate who can convince you, I can do both?

OLORUNNIPA: You do have some candidates trying to make that argument. Even the moderate candidates aren't necessarily saying I'm a moderate, let me bring over a lot of Republicans. They're saying, I'm a progressive, but I'm pragmatic and I'm looking at things that we can actually get done. We can get done on day one, not the pie in the sky big plans that may not actually be able to get through the Senate.

So you do see these candidates trying to make the argument that it's not just about having a big plan, having something that you can put down on paper, but actually affecting people's lives in a progressive way but doing it in a way that's actually pragmatic. And I think you'll hear a lot about that on the stage tonight.

KING: Much more of our conversation to come. It's a great day. Debate days are great no matter what your political party is. You have campaign staffers coming to put their signs up around the room.

RESTON: Helicopters.

KING: Yes, helicopters overhead. That (INAUDIBLE). Inside (ph) the debate hall is beautiful. As we continue the conversation, we ask cnn.com readers, what issues are you most interested in hearing tonight from the candidates? Among nearly 50,000 who weighed in online, climate change was the top topic, followed by the economy, then health care. The second round of Democratic debates begins tonight at 8:00 Eastern right here live from Detroit only on CNN. Please come back for that.

Up next for us, President Trump says black voters have never been so happy with a president. Um, we'll fact check that.

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[12:16:59] KING: Welcome back.

President Trump today making a staunch defense of his recent attacks on the city of Baltimore and its Democratic congressman, Elijah Cummings. This as sources tell CNN some White House aides are expressing discomfort at the president's conduct. The president disputes that, telling reporters outside the White House he's being praised and thanked for attacking Baltimore as, quote, disgusting and rat-infested.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I think I'm helping myself. And I'll tell you why. The White House and myself and letters and e-mails and phone calls, have received more phone calls than I think on any other subject of people from Baltimore and other cities, corruptly run by Democrats, thanking me for getting involved. Those people are living in hell in Baltimore. They're largely African- American. You have a large African-American population. And they really appreciate what I'm doing.

I am the least racist person there is anywhere in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: CNN's Sarah Westwood joining us live now from Williamsburg, Virginia, where the president just wrapped up remarks at a separate event.

Sarah, the president stuck to the script there, but that was a remarkable session outside of the White House this morning.

SARAH WESTWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: That's right, John.

President Trump claiming that his racially charged attacks on Congressman Elijah Cummings and his majority black district are somehow helping him within the African-American community, claiming as you just heard, that his White House has seen a spike in supportive contact from the African-American community without providing any evidence of that. But this as -- this coming as members of the Virginia Legislative Black Caucus here in Williamsburg boycotted his event here commemorating the 400th anniversary of the first representative legislative assembly because of his recent racially divisive attacks on critics of color, including Congressman Elijah Cummings, although this wasn't a unified boycott. Justin Fairfax, the lieutenant governor in Virginia, the highest ranking Democrat, did attend. That is a sign that his comments are causing divides within the African-American community, that he is facing a backlash.

And because of that, sources tell CNN, that some White House aides have expressed discomfort about the president's latest tirades. Sources tell our colleague Kevin Liptak, that in a staff meeting on Monday, some raised concerns that the president would not benefit from attacking Congressman Cummings, a 13-term member, who actually has a good reputation with Republicans and Democrats. He's not particularly far left. He's someone who would be very difficult for President Trump to characterize as extreme and as radical. And for that reason, aides were distinguishing between the president's previous attacks on the four Democratic House freshmen known as "the squad," who are further left, and on Cummings, who has a much better bipartisan reputation, John.

KING: Sarah Westwood tracking the president for us in Williamsburg, Virginia, today.

Sarah, appreciate that reporting.

Let's bring the conversation here.

This is trademark for the president. Number one, he attacks a Democratic congressman of color using words like crime-infested, rat- infested and then he backs off and tries to say that he was trying to make it about corruption, not about the quality or the caliber of the city, if you will. But then he hears -- he hears some of your aides are saying, sir, they're not so sure this is a good idea. Let's listen to a little more of the president. He says double down.

[12:20:13] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Baltimore has been very badly mishandled for many years. As you know, Congressman Cummings has been there for a long time. He's had a very iron hand on it. It's a corrupt city. There's no question about it. They are so happy at what I've been able to do in Baltimore and other Democratic-run corrupt cities. They ought to take that beautiful waste of an oversight committee, go down to Baltimore and other Democratic-run cities and take a look, see if you can find the billions that have been stolen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What are they so happy about that he's been able to do in Baltimore?

RESTON: So I just think that's such a -- an absurd statement. And you -- you know, you just think about all of us, obviously, have been talking to black voters all over the country as the race has progressed. And his comments were making me think actually of this woman who I met in Columbia, South Carolina, who was pulling for Biden, because he's a seasoned warrior who would go up against Trump was what she said. And she said, we don't need a rookie in the game right now because it's the anti-Christ we're up against.

And you talk to a lot of people --

KUCINICH: She clearly wasn't on the phone calling the White House.

RESTON: I mean you --

KUCINICH: Wasn't among the callers.

KING: Right.

RESTON: You talk to so many people who feel that way. They are tired of his rhetoric. They feel singled out and they give Barack Obama credit for bringing the economy back, not Donald Trump. And I think that that is, you know, that's felt broadly across the black community.

KING: And so the question is, what is the president's goal, or -- if there's a strategy behind it, what is the strategy behind it? To his point that African-Americans, you know, are rushing to the phone to call the White House and say, thank you. This is a poll that's a couple days olds, but just -- here's the context. Do you approve or disapprove of how the president's handling his job among African- Americans? Six percent approve, 84 percent disapprove. That is the highest disapproval among any subgroup except when you put all Democrats together. So the president has no political standing in the African-American community.

To your point, Democrats in 2018 say one of the big reasons they took the House was moderate suburban women who were open to voting Republican, who were repulsed by the president's behavior, the way he conducts himself, the way he attacks people, the way he tweets at 5:00 in the morning.

The AP, the "Associated Press," just did a big piece in suburbs around the country about this issue. The headline of the story is, suburban women recoil as Trump dives into racial politics. And I'll just read a couple of the quotes. I just don't like the way he talks about other people says Carol Evans, 79, in the Milwaukee suburbs. Wisconsin a very big state. It was mainly when he got into office when my opinion started changing, just the way he treats people, Emily West, 26, Detroit suburbs, right here in Michigan. I did not think it was going to be as bad as it is. Definitely narcissism and sexism, but I did not think it was going to be as bad as it is. I'm just ashamed to be an American right now, Kathy Barnes, 55, Denver suburbs. One more. He's not the most pleasant person. He can be very blunt and boorish. But I think this country needs someone who is more business-oriented. That's Chris Myers in the Philadelphia suburbs.

Is the president right when he says, I'll be on the ticket in 2020. So the factors that dragged the Republicans down in 2018, forget about it, you know, I'm president you're not is essentially his attitude about this. Is he right?

BURNS: No, he's not. The -- or I'd be very surprised if he turned out to be right. And this was readily apparent going back to 2016. And when you look at the states that delivered him the presidency, places like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, in the states that had other statewide elections on the ballot, non-Trump Republicans ran well ahead of Donald Trump. There are people who were willing to vote for Pat Toomey for Senate or Ron Johnson for Senate who could not pull the lever for Donald Trump. So whether he sees it this way or not, and it appears that he does not, he has had a tight rope act since the day he came into office to try to hold together this coalition of people, a combination -- you know, a majority of whom in his own coalition like what he's doing right now, but many of whom do not, right? He was elected the first president certainly that I know of in polling who was disliked by most people on the day he was elected president. He's done nothing to try to ameliorate that issue. And if you had asked, there can be this tendency, I think, among his

aides and advisers to try to backfill a strategy into things that he does just as a matter of impulse. But if you had asked folks in the White House a month ago to come up with a thousand ideas to help his re-election campaign, I'd be very surprised if waging war on Baltimore and Elijah Cummings personally had been on that list.

KING: Right. And he's taking a risk in the sense that he is hyperpolarizing an already hyperpolarized electorate. And if people turn out in the cities, in 2020, in -- more so than they did in 2016, that puts him at risk.

OLORUNNIPA: Yes, his campaign and the president are making a bet that his base is more powerful and more numerous than a number of the people that he's driving away, including minority voters, including suburban voters. We've heard the president say, I may not even need moderate voters because my base is so strong. So it may be sort of an over estimation of how many people are in his base.

We do know that the Trump campaign does have a digital operation of where they're trying to bring out some of these voters, some of these people who are infrequent voters, who like Trump, who aren't -- who may not even be Republicans. They are really driving and trying to bring those people out, even more so than trying to convince new voters to come over and bring minority voters or suburban voters to leave the Democratic fold and support the president.

[12:25:18] KUCINICH: But we're sitting in a state right now where Trump won by just 10,000 votes and where black voters didn't turn out how they did in the past. So this is -- we are sitting in the epicenter where this strategy might backfire.

KING: Right. It might backfire if there's a strategy to it. I do think part of his thinking is, if you can convince everybody that all politicians are corrupt, your vote doesn't matter, that maybe some people stay home. If there's a strategy to it, I think there's -- that's part of it. I'm not saying it's a good strategy --

KUCINICH: Right.

KING: But I think that's what he thinks. If you just poison the well, people think my vote doesn't count because everybody's corrupt, maybe they stay home. We'll see.

When we come back, we mentioned we're in Detroit. It's Wayne County. African-American voters here are critical when the Democratic primary rolls around next year. What are they looking for tonight? A lunchtime conversation with some undecided voters in just a second.

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