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Cummings Speaking Out On Trump Tweet For First Time; Nineteen Democratic Candidates Speak To Voters In Las Vegas; Democratic Candidates Seek Endorsement From Labor Union In Las Vegas; El Paso Police: Active Shooter In Area Of Hawkins And Gateway East; Lone Black Republican In House Becomes Eighth To Announce Exit; NYPD Judge: Cop In Eric Garner's Death Should Be Fired; "THE MOVIES," The 1960s, Airs Tomorrow Night At 9:00 P.M. Aired 1-2p ET
Aired August 3, 2019 - 13:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[13:00:00] LUIS GUTIERREZ, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: And that's why Will Hurd, right, their young rising star, black star in the House of Representatives, in the Democratic Party (sic), has chosen not to run for reelection.
That is why Mia Love, a contributor here, too, at CNN, that he gloated when she lost, the first black woman to be elected to the House of Representatives.
This a party that is whiting and is diminishing its own self because of the actions of this president.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Yes.
Former Congressman, former Mayor, hold on for a second.
Because we are at the top of the hour. Some people just now joining us. I want to bring you up to date on what we're talking about. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
I want to tell you about breaking news as Democratic Congressman Elijah Cummings of Maryland's 7th district addressing a crowd in Baltimore about the verbal attacks that he received from the president of the United States, the attacks of the Congressmen, of his city of Baltimore, of his district, and, of course, the people who live there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D-MD): What I want to say to all those people, since we got a national audience, come to Baltimore. Do not just criticize us but come to Baltimore. And I promise you, you will be welcome.
There are not many things that feed my soul. I do not have time for people who want to trash our city. But I do have time for our kids.
So don't waste my pain. Don't step on it. Don't tramp on the pain of our people
(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITFIELD: Back with me now, former Democratic congressman of Illinois, Luis Gutierrez, and former Tallahassee mayor and Florida candidate for governor, Andrew Gillum, both political commentators.
Let's resume our conversations about the handling -- Mr. Mayor, how Elijah Cummings has handled this, how he continues to remain focused as chairman of the Oversight Committee. He has been at the forefront of investigations, particularly of investigating the finances of Trump family, organization, administration. And we know that it has been a burr in the saddle of the president for a very long time. Perhaps, that was one of the impetuses of why the president targeted Elijah Cummings in the manner in which he did.
ANDREW GILLUM, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Without a doubt. First of all, it's very clear that this president feels a personal sense of deep attack any time, quite frankly, women, women of color, people of color, tend to stand up to him and to challenge him. He simply goes low. He goes to the bottom of the barrel and begins to scrape.
The problem here, though, is that this may actually be causing additional attention and negative attention to potentially be attracted toward not just this congressman but we saw the same thing with the four Democratic women who came under the ire of this president.
I have to tell you --
WHITFIELD: Using the language from the president, talking about going back from where you came.
GILLUM: Yes, exactly.
WHITFIELD: You know, three out of four of them American-born but all of them, four sworn in American members of Congress.
The president's frequent use of the word "infested" as he talks about or refers to black and brown people. The list goes on. I just wanted to fill in the blanks.
GILLUM: Yes. Yes.
WHITFIELD: Continue, Mr. Mayor.
GILLUM: I was just going to say, you're right on all of those points. I was going to simply say, as a former mayor myself, who, when I was running for governor of the state of Florida, this president used his Twitter account and his public speeches to say that I ran the most dangerous city in America, never mind that I was presiding over a near 20-year low in violent crime rate in my city.
I'm assume he thinks because I'm an African-American mayor, maybe my city was majority African-American and, again, crime infested, never mind my city is almost 70 percent white. And yet, we had our challenges. This --
WHITFIELD: It's a common thread of kind of code language used to --
GILLUM: Of course it's coded. And again, it reemphasizes, as the congressman has already pointed to, the narrative that he wants to draw for his base, which is basically the maligning, the criminalizing, the degrading of people of color. And I would include in that also women.
The last thing I would say on this, again, in my hat as a former mayor, regardless of the challenges that are being confronted in Baltimore, Tallahassee, Chicago, or whatever other city that exist around this country, when you're the president of the United States of America, you're the president of all of us.
As much as you may want to go after the individual leaders in those communities or the congress members, you're also responsible for the wellbeing and welfare of the people of all 50 states in every one of the thousands of cities that exist within it. That's his job.
WHITFIELD: Of course.
GILLUM: And he's also responsible.
WHITFIELD: Which leads to a continuation of a kind of lack of compassion.
Even after the president would target Elijah Cummings, after targeting several other people of color, particularly in leadership positions, former Congressman, then here, this moment of this week, the congressman's home, his place of residence being targeted in an attempted break in, robbery, and the president still can't help himself with this tweet, saying "Really bad news." The sarcasm is palpable. "The Baltimore house of Elijah Cummings was robbed. Too bad!"
[13:05:22] GUTIERREZ: Yes, exclamation mark.
WHITFIELD: Yes. It's as if he can't help himself and sees benefit. Congressman, the president seems to see benefit in this kind of behavior because, if there was real consequence, this wouldn't keep happening, right?
GUTIERREZ: Yes. And it's not new. And he puts Elijah Cummings in danger and he puts John Lewis in danger. My hero, an American iconic hero, John Lewis. And he attacks Ocasio-Cortez and the Squad, the women that are there. But it's not new. Is it, Fredricka?
I'm from Chicago. I was born in 1953 when separate but equal was the land of the land. Yet, in 1983, when we elected our first mayor, they called it Beirut on the lake. Why? Why did they call it? Because his Republican opponent said, "Vote for me before it's too late."
So these expressions of bigotry and hatred --
WHITFIELD: It's like they're coming.
GUTIERREZ: -- they're old. We've stood up to them in the past. We are going to stand up to them today. And --
WHITFIELD: Except this is what this underscores -- we can say it's old but it's not. It's right here. It's right now. It's very present.
GUTIERREZ: It's also --
WHITFIELD: -- but it's right now.
GUTIERREZ: Let me just say this. These expressions, right, these expressions, we've heard them before. America has risen in the past and has been triumphant. We will be triumphant again. And that is what this president must understand.
WHITFIELD: Thank you for the clarification if I wasn't clear. Thank you.
WHITFIELD: I knew what you meant but I just, you know, so many people, a little reminding.
GILLUM: I would say what is really sinister about this is, frankly, the president has decided to take this approach for political expedience and as a part of a political reelection strategy.
More than what this says about him, because we know he lives and thrives in the gutter, what he's also doing is suggesting that the people who will vote for him, who will support him are, frankly, coming to his aid and support for these very, very decisive and divisive tactics --
WHITFIELD: Is that enough? Big picture, if you're seeking reelection, why does the president feel or act as though he is very confident that that is enough?
WHITFIELD: The appeal that he gathers from these kinds of comments -- (CROSSTALK)
WHITFIELD: -- how does it translate into enough votes to get you back into office?
GUTIERREZ: So here's what I think. Look, there are politicians that look at the electoral process and present a vision for the future in which they provide better education, better housing, better community opportunity, more social justice.
And then there are candidates, like the president of the United States, who want to pit people against one another and say, you know what, the reason your real estate taxes are going up, the reason you don't have a job, the reason your kid doesn't go to college, the reason things aren't good in your life, it's that black neighbor of yours, it's the Latino that lives in America, it's the others that are taking something, that divide and pit Americans against one another.
But here's what I truly believe. I believe there's going to be that intersectionality occurring, among Muslims, among black people, among Latinos, among immigrants, among those who believe we need to save the planet earth, among environmentalists, and those who believe in social and economic justice.
And guess what, he said that Puerto Ricans were lazy and that's why we were complaining after Hurricane Maria.
And what I say to this president, just watch how lazy Puerto Ricans are in the state of Florida, of Mr. Gillum, come November of 2020 when there are long lines of them to oust you from the presidency of the United States of America.
WHITFIELD: All right.
Gentlemen, stick around.
I apologize for having to look at my computer. I was trying to pull up that tweet. I'm so glad we got it up, because there were many tweets, a host of material in which to substantiate, you know, what it is that we've been hearing, seeing, witnessing all week long. And now this is yet just another chapter, shall we say, in what America is experiencing.
Gentlemen, thank you so much. Stick around.
[13:09:46] Because we're also keeping a close eye on the Democratic candidates speaking to voters in Las Vegas. We'll take you there live, next.
WHITFIELD: Welcome back.
We're following breaking news out of Texas. Police in El Paso confirming in a tweet that they're responding to an active shooter situation in the area of Hawkins and Gateway East. They say the scene is still active and people should avoid the area.
And right now, a major event in the 2020 race for the White House is getting underway in Las Vegas. Fresh off the CNN debates this week, 19 Democratic presidential candidates are taking part in a critical forum for public service workers. The presidential hopefuls will be making their pitches, hoping to land the endorsement from one of the biggest labor unions in the country.
The candidates are already talking about very hot topic issues, such as health care.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): I was there. I saw what happened when the House repealed health care for tens of millions of Americans and high-fived each other afterwards. What kind of human beings high-five each other after taking away health care from millions of Americans?
But I'll tell you this, when it came to the Senate, I was on the floor when we picked up enough Republican votes to protect health care for people across this country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CNN's Jessica Dean is live for us now in Las Vegas.
Jessica, what else are the candidates talking about today?
JESSICA DEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon to you, Fred. Right, health care a big one for this union. This is one of the biggest unions in the country. All of these Democrats are seeking its endorsement. You can imagine this is high stakes for them.
[13:15:02] Another issue that they talked about, Julian Castro addressed immigration. He has proposed decriminalizing border crossings. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JULIAN CASTRO, (D), FORMER HOUSING SECRETARY & PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Some people say, well, you know, it's scary. Some people, is this open borders. This is not open borders. We have 65,000 miles of fencing. We have thousands of personnel at the border. We have planes, helicopters, boats, security cameras.
Only right-wingers call this thing open borders. And they're going to say open borders no matter what you do.
The last thing I'll say is, look, if you elect me president, you are not electing me to follow. You are electing me to lead. And I will lead. I will lead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DEAN: So they've made it through four of the 19 candidates that will speak here in Las Vegas, Nevada, today. The president of the union was out here earlier. In the last election
cycle, they endorsed Hillary Clinton. They said, this time, they're slowing down that endorsement process.
When asked why, they said, look, we have a lot of friends on the stage. We want to listen to what they have to say. We want to listen to how they're going to attack and deal with a lot of these issues that our union workers are very concerned about, health care, how to get food on the table, how to make that car payment, that house payment, things like that. So that's what they're looking to hear about today.
Fredricka, Joe Biden is up next on the stage so we'll be keeping an eye on that as well.
WHITFIELD: Jessica Dean, keep me posted. Thank you so much.
Back with me now, former Congressman Luis Gutierrez and former Tallahassee Mayor and Florida candidate for governor, Andrew Gillum.
Thanks for sticking around, as political commentator on CNN.
Mayor Gillum, you first.
Democrats spending a lot of time on the debate stage, taking jabs at each other, now they're on the campaign trail.
Elizabeth Warren reminding people, I was there when I saw people high- fiving because people would be losing their health care, there's something wrong with that. Julian Castro saying, I'm not going to follow, I will lead. Is this a defining moment for these candidates who choose to be at that forum hoping to get the backing of working people?
GILLUM: Yes. First of all, they're all smart. The fact that you've got 19 of them showing up, and we were not in a debate but rather a forum.
But if you ask me, Convention President Saunders is right to, I believe, take the slower approach and to hear from his members, and, quite frankly, force the candidates to talk very openly about the role of organized labor in this country. Right now, only about 10.5 percent of American workers are organized or are part of a union. That's the lowest point we've seen in the history since the early 1980s.
WHITFIELD: And AFSCME, Lee Saunders, the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Union --
GILLUM: Yes, municipal employees.
WHITFIELD: -- Employees Union.
Yes, go ahead. GILLUM: Yes, you've got it. My bad. I used that acronym --
WHITFIELD: No, it's OK.
GILLUM: I'm very familiar with them at the municipal level.
But the truth is, I am really looking forward to hearing our candidates talk eloquently about the role of organized labor. I think it's just gotten such a bad rap.
We owe the eight-hour workday, the 40-hour work week, the workplace protections that we've experienced, safety in the workplace, family, maternal leave. Organized labor has been on the forefront of those issues since the very, very beginning. The fact that we've allowed that organized voice for workers here in America to be so maligned I think is a shame.
I hope that through today's speeches that there will be, in some ways, a revival of conversation and moment around what it means to live in a country where we value our workers, where we pay them wages that they can live on, where they can work one job instead of two and three jobs in order to make ends meet. And that they get access to health care as a right and not a privilege so they don't have to be concerned about one illness taking them out of the workplace and putting their families in bankruptcy.
So labor is important. I'm glad to see the candidate there's confronting these difficult topics today.
WHITFIELD: Congressman --
GUTIERREZ: Yes, I just think at the Democratic -- at the Democratic debate I was excited, right? We were talking about health care and they're saying health care is a basic fundamental human right, it isn't a business, it isn't for profit. That's good.
But where was Obamacare, the largest expansion of health care since Medicare, right? Why didn't the candidates say, by the way, we represent the future. Why do we represent the future? Because not only was Obamacare the largest expansion and we need to go, I believe --
WHITFIELD: Why didn't they? Why do you suppose --
GUTIERREZ: I don't know. It was such a failure.
WHITFIELD: They all were very aware of that possibility but none. [13:20:05] GUTIERREZ: I want everybody today to go and research how
many Republicans voted to expand health care in 2009 under Obama in the Senate and the House? Zero. Not one. We had to do it all by ourselves.
We saved G.M. because 205 Democrats in the House, followed with 32 Republicans, voted for the bailout plan to keep -- we're in the Motor City. Why aren't we talking about those issues and how we represent the future.
And Julian Castro, I love the fact that he brings up Section 1325. But let's be very clear. The reason we need to repeal 1325 is because Donald Trump is using it. Obama never used it. As a matter of fact, Secretary Johnson refused to separate children from their moms in detention and released them from detention.
So, look, there's a difference between what happened then and what happened. And I think my colleague and my friend and someone who I admire so much, Mayor Gillum, he was there.
I believe, Major, that the largest, most universal round of applause at the Fox Theater was when Senator Bennet said, hey, let's stop talking about the past and let's start talking about what our proposals for the future are.
WHITFIELD: And we'll see.
GILLUM: Yes, no doubt about it.
WHITFIELD: at this point, this is kind of the starting point.
Andrew Gillum, Luis Gutierrez, we'll leave it here for now. We'll have you back because we love you.
GUTIERREZ: Thank you so much, Frederica.
GILLUM: Thanks so much --
WHITFIELD: Thank you so much.
Still to come, we continue to follow breaking news out of El Paso, Texas. Police there say there was an active shooter situation.
Stay with us.
[13:25:21] WHITFIELD: Welcome back.
We're following breaking news out of Texas. Police in El Paso confirming in a tweet that they are responding to an active shooter situation.
Rosa Flores joining me now. What are you learning?
ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're getting a lot of information from the police, from the fire department, and also from people that are on the scene.
This information, the latest into our newsroom, is from the manager of Landry's Restaurant. There are three businesses on lockdown in this area.
Again, El Paso police saying there's an active shooter situation and that this active shooter situation is at Hawkins and Gateway East. They are also asking people to stay away from that area, which is the Cielo Vista Mall area.
According to this manager, he said that three business are on lockdown. The three female employees took refuge at the Landry Seafood House. The restaurants that are on lockdown are Hooters and Red Lobster.
As you might imagine, there are a lot of people who are still hunkered down and very nervous, very scared about what's going on.
According to this manager, they can hear helicopters hovering overhead. Of course, a lot of police activity. A lot of people either hunkering down or running around. There's a lot of chaos.
But, again, a very tense situation in El Paso --
WHITFIELD: All right, keep us posted.
Thank you so much. We appreciate that, Rosa.
The only African-American GOP lawmaker in the House of Representatives calling it quits. This, as several other Republicans announce their retirements. How is the GOP feeling about its chances to take back the House in 2020?
[13:30:40] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
Now back to Washington where Republicans have just lost one -- or its only black member of the House of Representatives this week. Congressman Will Hurd, of Texas, calling it quits, announcing he will not seek reelection next year.
The news stunned Hurd's colleagues, who have seen several other Republicans also announce their retirement.
I want to bring in Charlie Dent, CNN political commentator and a Republican former member of Congress, and Brendan Buck. He was a top aide to former House Speaker Paul Ryan.
Good to see you both.
Former Congressman Dent, Hurd is the sixth Republican to announce retirement in the last two weeks, 8th overall. One Republican fundraiser tells CNN that everyone who is leaving is tired of defending Trump.
Do you expect more lawmakers who will follow suit?
CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Fred, I absolutely think more will follow suit. I think you need to keep an eye on some of the longer-term members who might be thinking about packing it in now.
I was not completely surprised by Will Hurd's announcement. Who really --
WHITFIELD: Why not?
DENT: Because, look, he represents a 71 percent Hispanic district. He's one of three Republicans in the House who represents a district that Hillary Clinton won in 2016. And he doesn't want to have to stand there and answer these questions every day that the president makes some kind of racially charged attack people of color in his district. It's painful for him on a personal level. And of course, who want to deal with that for the next 15 months.
WHITFIELD: But why would he feel compelled to do that as opposed to, he is representing a district that is 70 percent Latino. Those are the people that he's answering to as a member of Congress. Not necessarily is it expected that he has to be lock -- in step with the president of the United States.
DENT: Oh, he's pushed back on the president. He's pushed back. And he's done that regularly.
But the president is making life for members like him and other members in these marginal districts untenable. It's very hard to be running on the ticket with him when he's making those kinds of comments and you're forced to answer.
I'm not saying he agrees with us. Will Hurd is not going to defend the indefensible or explain the - he won't do that. But it's making their political situations so much more dire and so much so difficult.
And Hurd is a smart guy. And this is a guy who is an expert on artificial intelligence, cyber security, intel, generally, as well as immigration on the border. He's one of our best voices on that issue.
This is a huge loss because he's not only a swing district member, but he was the face of the future of the party.
WHITFIELD: And he said that, recently, that he is the face of the future party. DENT: Yes.
WHITFIELD: And then this, which is why so many were surprised, Brendan.
We know that when a party is in the minority, yes, there might be those who leave. But when we talk about the numbers, you know, of people who are retiring, who are leaving the Republican Party, or at least leaving their seat, does this strike you as particularly remarkable? And is it sustainable for Republicans to be able to hold on there their seats when there's such an exodus like this.
BRENDAN BUCK, FORMER AIDE TO FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER PAUL RYAN: Yes, nobody should be surprised that people when you get into the minority. Being the minority in the House is not fun. The House of Representatives is a majoritarian institution. If you're in the minority, you have almost no say in what's going on. So that's not surprising.
It was always going to be a big lift to win back the House in two years. I think this only hurts.
My bigger concern is not necessarily whether we're going to lose the seats. Like Martha Roby, for example, from Alabama, we're not going to lose that seat. My concern is the type of people that will come in and replace people, like Martha Roby and Will Hurd.
Some of the people who have announced they're leaving are our more thoughtful members. They're the ones that came to Washington because they want to work on policy. They want to be legislators. And now the incentive structure is just so backward that thoughtfulness is not rewarded any more.
[13:35:03] What's rewarded is being inflammatory. What's rewarded is having a big presence on Twitter and on certain cable channels and developing an audience like that.
And you really do, at this point, in a lot of ways, have a bigger influence in the party if you have one of those profiles than you, say, keep your head down, work on policy, make your way to be a subcommittee chairman or even a committee chairman at some point. That used to be what you wanted to work for. And it fostered a good environment for legislating. Today, we just don't see that anymore.
So it's not surprising that thoughtful people like this are the ones that are leaving.
WHITFIELD: So, Charlie, when you look at this, what does this say. I mean, it's like a microcosm look at that kind of conflict that many Republicans are having right now and that there have been -- you know, Will Hurd is the latest to leave, that you see more coming?
DENT: I do. I think Brendan is correct that many members would rather not stick around in the minority. That's one of the reasons why I chose not to run again. I didn't talk about it a lot during the 2018 cycle because I had a sense it was going to be the minority and I didn't want to be there again. As Brendon said, it's a majoritarian institution.
But a bigger problem for Republicans now, when a Will Hurd retires, that seat is gone. I just can't see a scenario where Republicans will win that seat in this election. And Pete Olson, he just announced. Republicans will have to expend a lot of resources to hold that seat. And it will be hard.
Even Susan Brooks. Republicans will hold that seat, but they'll have to invest many there. Same as Mitchell. Mike Conaway, of Texas, he's retiring. That will be a Republican seat there. But you're going to get -- you're losing a thoughtful member and he's going to be replaced by someone who, in all likelihood, will be wearing a MAGA hat. Same thing with Rob Bishop.
This is what the problem is. As Brendan said, thoughtful members are leaving and I worry about who is going to replace them.
WHITFIELD: So, Brendan, what does the president think about this? What does the White House, you know, think about this?
BUCK: In my experience, I think they're mostly concerned about their own reelection. And I understand that.
Winning back the House right now is always going to be, like I said, a big lift. I do think we're probably poised to win back seats.
But, as Charlie said, the more you have to spend money, the more you have to direct resources in places that aren't necessarily helping to win back the seat, win back the House or to win the presidency, those are all things that are headwinds that you don't want to have.
Now, the president has not shown a whole lot of concern for other members. When we lost the House, famously, he held a press conference and attacked some of our members that lost, which was particularly unfortunate.
So I don't know how much he's concerned about it.
BUCK: But the -- yes. The fact there is all of this turmoil going on doesn't help anybody. And what we have is a party that a lot of members in areas that are important for the president to win, who are clearly showing they're uncomfortable running alongside with him.
WHITFIELD: All right, Brendan Buck, Charlie Dent, we'll leave it there for now. Thanks so much, gentlemen. Appreciate it.
DENT: Thanks, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: And I want to update you on this breaking news out of El Paso. Police confirming in a tweet that they are responding to an active shooter. They say this is in the area of Hawkins and Gateway East. We have learned at least three businesses are on lockdown in that area at that Cielo Vista Mall location. And witnesses are telling CNN they see a lot of police, helicopters and people running.
We'll have much more when we come back.
[13:42:26] WHITFIELD: Five years after Eric Garner's death, the New York Police Department suspended Officer Daniel Pantaleo. His suspension comes after a police department judge recommended he be fired for his role in the 2014 death of Garner.
Garner died while being pulled to the ground during an arrest and held in a choke hold. Disturbing video capturing the arrest and it went viral. And on that video, Garner can be heard pleading with the arresting officers, repeatedly saying, "I can't breathe." That phrase becoming a national rallying cry from activists battling police brutality.
Avery Friedman, a civil rights attorney and law professor, and Richard Herman, a criminal defense attorney and law professor.
Good to see both of you.
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: Good to see you.
Just a few weeks ago, the Department of Justice refused to bring charges against the officer. A grand jury in 2014 didn't indictment. This new recommendation to fire him coming from an NYPD judge. But now it's a suspension.
So, Richard, what's with this journey?
RICHARD HERMAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Fred, this is absolutely a tragic, completely unavoidable, horrible scenario that happened here. For the family of Mr. Garner, you can't feel enough for them.
But you know, there's another side to the story here, Fred. When a police officer arrives on a scene and gives a direct order to someone to stand down, put your hand behind your back, you're under arrest, that's not up for discussion or negotiation or modification.
If you don't listen to that order, Fred -- we talk about this all the time -- nothing good is going to happen. Had Mr. Garner turn around and listened to the order from the police officers, we would not be discussing the case here today.
FRIEDMAN: Oh, no.
HERMAN: What happened was he resisted arrest, the situation was escalating, he's 6'2", 400 pounds, the police officers felt --
WHITFIELD: OK. But this is over selling cigarettes.
HERMAN: They subdued him.
FRIEDMAN: Come on.
HERMAN: They subdued him, Fred. They subdued him. And they did it. And it was accidental. And there's a lot of causes for his death. It wasn't just because of a hold. And this was the violation. The clasping of the hands --
HERMAN: -- caused a violation of a policy, New York police policy. There were no criminal charges brought here.
And there was also a finding by that same administrative law judge, Fred, that Pantaleo did not intentionally hamper the breathing of Mr. Garner.
I don't think he's going to get terminated. I think the commissioner is not going to terminate him. I think he's going to keep his job here, Fred. I really do.
[13:45:07] WHITFIELD: Avery?
FRIEDMAN: Oh, my goodness.
WHITFIELD: I mean --
WHITFIELD: -- we're looking at the selling of cigarettes --
WHITFIELD: -- and it led to this man's death.
FRIEDMAN: It led to using a choke, according to a 47-page careful analysis. The idea of justifying it is mindboggling to me.
The issue is, was a choke hold used. Both sides, the union put evidence on, the prosecutors put evidence on. And the conclusion, Fredricka, was that this was a banned procedure. It violated NYPD rules. And, frankly, that's why there's a recommendation.
What I think the judge, the deputy commissioner had in mind was, frankly, to stop excessive force problems within the department.
And he will be terminated. The idea of yelling at the mayor, De Blasio, to get rid of Pantaleo, there's a process. And the process will be --
FRIEDMAN: Exactly. By the end of this month, there will be a decision by Commissioner O'Neill on whether or not Pantaleo has to go. And my prediction is exactly the opposite of what Richard is saying. He's got to go and he will be gone.
WHITFIELD: So listen to what the New York police union president had to say about the judge's recommendation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICK LYNCH, PRESIDENT, NEW YORK PATROLMAN'S BENEVOLENT ASSOCIATION: To say that we had a fair process when we listened to the drumbeat of the criminal advocates who have been chanting every time anyone on the other side tries to get the truth out. That is not justice.
I'm sorry to say that we have to tell our police officers, take it a step slower, make sure we're thinking, make sure you're making decisions in seven seconds because you won't get backing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HERMAN: That's the problem, Fred. It's a split-second decision that the situation was escalating. This was a very large man, 400 pounds, 6'2". They made a decision to take him down.
This officer was climbing up his back. He was twice of size of him, Fred. He put that hold him. He clasped the hands. That was the problem.
HERMAN: There was no intent to choke him out. There was not intent to kill him. This was a policy violation, only done under split second and the situation that was escalating and --
WHITFIELD: But the family's argument, and the argument of those who viewed the tape --
WHITFIELD: -- would say, when someone is struggling or when they're saying, I can't breathe --
FRIEDMAN: That's it. There it is.
WHITFIELD: -- there have to be some adjustments made.
HERMAN: He had high blood pressure, asthma --
FRIEDMAN: So what?
HERMAN: He was obese. There's conflicting evidence as to the situation here.
FRIEDMAN: When someone says you can't breathe -- when someone says you can't breathe --
HERMAN: People say a lot of things when they're being subdued. I represent police officers --
WHITFIELD: People don't do -- police officers, good cops don't do things like this. They follow the procedure. The idea --
HERMAN: Good people don't resist arrest.
HERMAN: Good people do not resist arrest.
WHITFIELD: There's also the issue of de-escalation.
HERMAN: They don't violate the law.
WHITFIELD: There's also the issue of de-escalation. That was also at the root of the arguments --
FREIDMAN: Exactly right.
WHITFIELD: -- of adjustments made or lack thereof.
HERMAN: These officers feared for their safety and for the safety of people around them.
FRIEDMAN: Oh, my goodness gracious!
HERMAN: -- to take him down.
FRIEDMAN: That is not true.
HERMAN: Had he not resisted, we would not be talking about this today.
FRIEDMAN: Read the 47-page report.
HERMAN: You have to be real about this.
FRIEDMAN: Read the report! Read the report! (CROSSTALK)
HERMAN: No, it's not criminal.
FRIEDMAN: Of course, it's not criminal!
FRIEDMAN: It is a question of whether or not -- whether or not a police officer should remain on the force. Period.
FRIEDMAN: And that's what's going to happen.
WHITFIELD: We'll leave it there.
FRIEDMAN: I represent police. This was inappropriate.
FRIEDMAN: And that's why he's going to lose his job.
HERMAN: Inappropriate --
FRIEDMAN: Inappropriate. Inappropriate.
HERMAN: You tell New York City police officers in the future, when there's a resisting-arrest case, you call in for a supervisor --
FRIEDMAN: I'm sorry --
WHITFIELD: I recognize the passion of this case.
WHITFIELD: We'll have to leave it there.
HERMAN: He shouldn't get fired.
FRIEDMAN: This is just wrong. Let's see what happens in August.
WHITFIELD: Richard Herman, Avery Friedman --
FRIEDMAN: Thank you so much.
WHITFIELD: -- thank you so much. I always appreciate you. [13:49:25] We continue to follow breaking news out of Texas. El Paso
police confirming in a tweet that they are responding to an active shooter. They say this is in the areas of Hawkins and Gateway East. We've learned at least three businesses are on lockdown in the area. Witnesses saying they're seeing activity.
We'll be right back.
WHITFIELD: Tomorrow night, an all-new episode of the CNN original series, "THE MOVIES," explores American cinema of the 1960s.
Our Tom Foreman takes a look at how the political turmoil of the decade and technological advances, from TV to the atom bomb, were changing the way Hollywood was making movies.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Movies about psychotic killers, lurking assassins, zombies, demons --
UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: What have you done to it.
FOREMAN: -- the annihilation of everything.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You maniac!
FOREMAN: In the 1960s, with the Cold War raging and society in turmoil, the film business embraced fear. Even in dark comedies like "Dr. Strange Love."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I came out of that movie fearing nuclear war with the Russians more than I ever had before. It really takes you to Armageddon.
FOREMAN: Hollywood itself was scared, facing its own doomsday device, television.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the '60s, studios were staggering from people not going to the theaters. Just hard to compete with free stuff in your living room.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: No prisoners! No prisoners!
FOREMAN: The answer, at least for a while, was to turn to big pictures. Too big for tiny screens. And fans loved them.
(MUSIC) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But also, those movies were too big and too difficult to make. You look at what something like "Cleopatra" cost, it very nearly not only crippled one studio, but the business.
[13:55:05] UNIDENTIFIED ACTRESS: You're not Harry.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Harry was the other guy. I'm Sid.
FOREMAN: So the business kept changing.
SIDNEY POITIER, ACTOR: They call me Mr. Tibbs.
FOREMAN: With fresh directors, stars and stories.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: I'm the best you've ever seen.
FOREMAN: Taking on the same topics the nation was engaging.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD ACTOR: If you shouldn't be defending him, then why are you doing it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gregory Peck's Addison Finch really does help America sort of come into the discuss of the civil rights struggle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we think of classic Hollywood, we think of romance and glamour. That begins to break down in the '60s and we get a more complex view of human psychology.
DUSTIN HOFFMAN, ACTOR: Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me.
FOREMAN: Where was it all heading? Hollywood didn't know. But as America rode out of the '60s, who did?
WHITFIELD: An in-incredible look back. Be sure to tune in to the all-new episode of the CNN original series "THE MOVIES," airing tomorrow night, 9:00 Eastern and Pacific, only on CNN.
We've got so much more straight ahead in the NEWSROOM, including breaking news out of El Paso, Texas, involving an active shooter situation. We'll have more on that after this.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
[13:59:59] WHITFIELD: Hello, again, everyone. Thank you so much for being with me this Saturday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.
We begin with this breaking news. Police in El Paso, Texas, say they are responding to an active shooter situation. They are warning people to a avoid Hawkins and Gateway East.