Return to Transcripts main page
HALA GORANI TONIGHT
Dayton Shooter Had History of Violent Plans; Trump Administration Labels China Currency Manipulator; Remembering Toni Morrison After Her Death. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired August 6, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:19] HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR, HALA GORANI TONIGHT: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, new details about the Ohio shooter and the movements of the El Paso gunman, as Americans, still trying to figure out what to do about
rampant gun violence.
Then, a trade war may be developing into a currency war as the world's two biggest economies face off.
And, later, a literary giant passes away: the life and legacy of Nobel Prize-winning author Toni Morrison.
As America mourns, President Donald Trump is getting ready to take on the role of comforter-in-chief, or at least, he's going to try to, after some
criticism. Tomorrow, he's scheduled to visit two cities, devastated by mass shootings. But he should brace himself for protests, especially in El
Some Democrats are explicitly urging him to stay away, believing his racist remarks about immigrants may have in fact influenced the shooter who killed
22 people there.
The mayor of Dayton, Ohio says she'll meet with President Trump and tell him she favors a ban on assault weapons. Nan Whaley also warned the
president he should be ready to face the consequences of his own remarks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR NAN WHALEY, DAYTON, OHIO: He's made this bed and he's got to lie in it, you know? He hasn't -- you know, his rhetoric has been painful for
many in our community. And I think that people should stand up and say they're not happy, if they're not happy that he's coming.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Police still haven't determined a motive in the Dayton massacre that left nine people dead, but we are learning disturbing new details
about the suspect. As Drew Griffin reports, his apparent obsession with violence included hit lists of people he wanted to rape or kill.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): His mother's social media shows a smiling family, a brother and a sister. But
Connor Betts killed that sister, and was gunned down by police as he fired on a crowd in Dayton.
This surveillance video shows police shooting and killing Betts, who was wearing a mask and bulletproof vest, just 30 seconds after the first shot
was fired. But that 30 seconds was still enough time to kill nine people and injure dozens.
Sources tell CNN a search of the gunman's home showed writings revealing an interest in killing people, and it's not the first time. The shooter had a
history of violent thinking. He was removed from Bellbrook High School after administrators found a notebook with two columns, according to former
students: a kill list of boys, a rape list of girls.
Spencer Brickler says he was told he and his sister were on that list.
SPENCER BRICKLER, FORMER CLASSMATE OF GUNMAN: I saw him get pulled off the bus after school one day. And apparently, he had made a kill list and I
happened to be on it. I don't know why.
I look up, and there's two police officers standing on the bus, asking him to get off the bus and go with them.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): David Partridge was another former high school classmate of the gunman. He says when a friend told him about the kill
list and disturbing text messages about hurting people, they both went to the police.
DAVID PARTRIDGE, FORMER CLASSMATE OF GUNMAN: This guy could go to the school, he could kill people, he could hurt my family, he could hurt you.
GRIFFIN: So you were concerned he was a school shooter back then?
PARTRIDGE: Absolutely. She contacted the police along with her parents, I got off the phone with her, I contacted the police along with my father.
They took her cell phone, they photographed it for text messages. They actually never returned her cell phone to her.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): But how that turned into the terrible events of Saturday night is still being investigated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was shots fired, there was people hurt. There's somebody hurt.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): The gunman drove to the area with his sister and a friend, who was also shot and is now hospitalized. Dayton police are still
unclear on what the sister or friend knew in advance, if anything.
RICHARD BIEHL, CHIEF, DAYTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: We have no information at this time to suggest that they were aware of the weapons when they were
introduced into this environment.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): So far, the shooter's family has not talked. Police are outside their home. Officially, police say they have no motive. The
writings found do not appear political or have any bias. What police do say is Connor Betts was armed for mass murder.
BIEHL: If all the magazines that we recovered from the suspect were completely full, he would have had a maximum of 250 rounds in his
possession at the time.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): A planned massacre that ended in his death, 30 seconds after it began.
GORANI: And Drew Griffin joins me now, live from Dayton, with more.
So when people hear that this was a very troubled young man with kill and rape lists, I guess their natural follow-up question would be, "How was he
allowed to purchase a weapon of war?"
[14:05:09] GRIFFIN: And that's what so many of his high school classmates have been asking us, knowing the person they knew back in high school.
But, Hala, during his time as an adult, he has a very scant criminal record. Just a few minor driving infractions and one major driving
infraction, a driving under the influence or DUI. But those aren't enough to get on any kind of a criminal list that would prohibit you from buying a
gun in the United States. And there was no indications of any kind of mental health incapacity that he was judged by a judge to have, which would
have also kept him as what they call a "prohibited possessor."
We have tried to get those high school records. They were expunged or placed under seal by the police. And the school district, where he went to
school, has not released them yet.
GORANI: And no one in his immediate family, mother, siblings, friends raised any red flags about this man?
GRIFFIN: You know, we can talk to friends, we can talk to ex-girlfriends who did raise flags in their mind. But did they raise any red flags to
authorities? No. We do not have any records that the family either knew or reached out to authorities. It does lead one to question.
Obviously, this family is grieving the loss of both their son, who was the shooter, and their daughter, who was a victim of their own son. They have
not spoken at all, Hala. The police are trying to work with them to produce a statement. But so far, we don't know what the family or his very
closest friends knew about this.
GORANI: And there will be a presidential visit tomorrow in Dayton. We know that in El Paso, some Democrats are telling the president to stay
away. What are you hearing in Dayton?
GRIFFIN: Yes. There's actually -- there was a planned protest, I don't know how big it was, but a protest that was being -- taking place over at
City Hall today.
Unlike Texas, I mean, El Paso is a Democratic town. But obviously, the president disparaged El Paso itself a while ago. Texas is a much more
welcoming place for the president.
Ohio is a different place. It's much more of a swing state, and Dayton is certainly a very Democratic, left-leaning town. And certainly, the area
where this shooting took place is extremely liberal. So I'm not sure he's going to have the welcome that he thinks he might have, and actually might
detract from the grieving that is taking place here, and the healing that is taking place here.
But we don't know the details exactly of where he will go, if he will do anything in public, will he meet victims or first responders. We'll just
have to see what those details are -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. Drew Griffin, thanks very much. Live in Dayton.
So with one motive apparently clear and the other still a mystery, let's dive into all of this. CNN legal analyst Carrie Cordero joins me now. Her
expertise is U.S. national security.
So we know that the El Paso shooter left that manifesto that he apparently targeted Hispanics and Latinos, drove purposely to El Paso. It's a lot
murkier what the motive was with the Dayton shooter -- Carrie.
CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: That's exactly right, Hala. So in the case of the El Paso shooter, as you said, it's pretty clear, even at this
quick (ph) time just a couple days later, that he was motivated by hate, that he was motivated, he was specifically targeting individuals who were
Hispanic or who he thought were on the border, or Mexicans. There were seven Mexican nationals, I believe, that died in that attack.
And that is in part due, I think, to the political rhetoric that has taken place in this country over the last couple years, in particular by the
president. So that person, what was -- should be prosecuted as a hate crime, and I think will be prosecuted in terms of using statutes that are
related to domestic terrorism.
In the Dayton case, it's different. I think investigators are still trying to determine the exact motive for that individual, and it's less clear what
the motivations were, whether they were political at all, which puts us into the realm of domestic terrorism, or whether they were simply whatever
was going on in this individual's mind.
GORANI: And how would they make that determination? Because there were these reports that his Twitter feed had some political -- pretty extreme
political views on it. What are authorities doing now?
CORDERO: Right. So basically, politically, the Dayton shooter appears to have been on the opposite spectrum from the El Paso shooter. The Dayton
shooter, purporting to write things online related to the far-left. The connection would have to be to determine the motive.
And whether that falls under a domestic terrorism framework, would be whether or not those writings or those online expressions were connected to
the victims that he chose or that he was intending to target. So right now, we don't have an indication that the specific victims were a certain
kind of people that would have been motivated by a hate crime.
[14:10:09] GORANI: As opposed to El Paso. Now, with El Paso, now that the white supremacist threat is firmly on people's radar -- I mean, I think it
took a while for that to happen even though white supremacists' attacks have killed more people than -- than, certainly, Islamic terrorism by far.
What can be done so that these attacks are prevented before they happen?
CORDERO: Well, that's the key. You know, in the -- in the post-9/11 era here, in terms of national security and our laws, what we did was we
changed the legal framework and the investigative framework, to focus on prevention and disruption of the attacks domestically before they occurred.
And the U.S. government and federal agencies have been very successful in disrupting many al-Qaida or legacy al-Qaida or ISIS-inspired attacks by
individuals here in the U.S. over the last 15 or so years.
We need to adapt. And by "we," I mean the U.S. government needs to adapt to this new -- newer threat. It's not new, but this threat that seems to
be emboldened and encouraged in our current environment --
GORANI: Because -- because the difference, the huge difference is -- well, not just that it kills more people, but there's no top-down organization.
Usually it's lone wolves who may be finding encouragement on sites, discussion boards like 8chan. But they're not part of an organization. So
CORDERO: Well, this is exactly --
GORANI: -- it would be harder, right? Yes.
CORDERO: This is, exactly. But it's very similar to the issue that we faced in the mid-2000s, when I was still in government and we were working
on international terrorism cases, which was that the great fear really was the person here in the United States who was inspired by these
CORDERO: -- terrorist organizations. And that's the similar analogy to what we're finding now, is who is the individual or maybe a couple people
together who are friends or associates, who are inspired by these right- wing, white supremacist movements that are both in the United States and also, as you know, throughout the world and Western Europe.
So that's the issue, is how to prevent those attacks. And on that issue, our legal framework and our investigative authorities that are available to
investigators, are not as strong when it comes to domestic terrorism as they are for international terrorism.
TEXT: U.S. Gun Ownership: Private U.S. citizens own over 393 million guns; Americans own 46 percent of world's civilian-owned guns; Nearly 30
percent of American adults own a gun; Two-thirds of U.S. gun owners have multiple guns
GORANI: And we haven't even talked about gun control. That's a whole other topic of discussion that we've been addressing as well, these last
few days. Carrie Cordero, thanks so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
Now, to this story. Trade tensions between the world's two largest economies -- it's not getting better. China is pushing back after the
Trump administration labeled it a currency manipulator.
The move comes after Beijing dropped the value of its currency to its lowest level in more than a decade. The turmoil led to the worst day on
Wall Street this year. U.S. stock markets are struggling to recover some of that lost ground today. Let's head over to Alison Kosik. She's at the
New York Stock Exchange.
We lost over 800 points yesterday. Today, there's a bit of a claw-back.
ALISON KOSIK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Very little here, but we have seen stocks fluctuate. But this sort of rebound, if you want to call it that,
is kind of holding its own, this after Chinese central bank said it wants the yuan to trade higher against the dollar. That kind of breathing some
life into this small rally that you're seeing. So you're seeing investors kind of dip their toes back in the water.
But there still is a lot of uncertainty because it's uncertain where this trade war is going to go and when it is going to end. You know, it's clear
with President Trump's latest announcement to move forward with tariffs on the remaining $300 billion in Chinese goods, and China retaliating by
allowing its currency to depreciate against the dollar yesterday, it shows that both sides are really digging in here.
So as investors see it, there's really no resolution in sight. One trader put it this way, as far as what we can expect? Well, we can expect to see
continued volatility, he thinks for about two to three weeks unless -- unless we get some kind of real progress on trade, which doesn't really
feel like it at the moment -- Hala.
GORANI: OK. Alison, thanks very much.
Well, that trade war between the U.S. and China is also having an outsized impact on the tech sector. Let's bring in our business correspondent, Paul
R. La Monica.
So before we get to tech here, the president keeps saying, "massive amounts of money from China pouring into the United States," that's not the case.
Investment in China has plummeted. This is hurting the economy of the United States, ultimately. How is that translating in real terms?
PAUL R. LA MONICA, CNN DIGITAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I think it is fair to say, obviously, that the president keeps trying to make this point, that
China is paying the cost of these higher tariffs, when that's not really true at all.
[14:15:03] It is the American consumer and the companies that are being faced with higher prices on the goods that they're now selling to
consumers, that are really, you know, paying the price here.
And then, obviously, tech companies that are getting hurt by China's retaliatory moves. That's why you saw shares of Apple and many big chip
companies like Nvidia, all fall yesterday pretty sharply, even more than the broader market because there are worries about what happens when China
retaliates and hits back against these big American firms that, in a global world, are ideally trying to sell as many products to Chinese consumers as
they are to American consumers and European consumers.
GORANI: Yes. And how does this hit consumers? How does this hurt consumers? Because also, our viewers are outside of the United States
mainly, they're all over the world. It also hurts them.
These trade wars affect people in other parts of the world who rely on trade between the U.S. and China for whatever reason -- they might be in
the supply chain, they might, you know. I mean, world trade, when two big superpowers fight, suffers globally. How --
LA MONICA: Yes, definitely.
GORANI: -- ordinary consumers who might be watching us now, suffer from this?
LA MONICA: Yes. I think from an American standpoint, obviously. U.S. consumers looking to go to a Walmart and buy something that potentially was
made in China, that is something that they're going to be faced with, higher costs.
But then as you point out, Hala, definitely, there is this global connection with trade right now, obviously. We are not an isolated world.
Things that happen between the U.S. and China matter for the rest of the global economy. And Europe trades with both the U.S. and China, obviously.
They're huge trading partners.
So any tension between these two giant countries is going to filter down and it's going to hurt Europe, it's going to hurt South America, the other
parts of Asia. You know, no part of the world will emerge --
LA MONICA: -- unscathed from these trade tensions.
GORANI: And four former heads of the Federal Reserve have issued a warning, that this is all getting a bit dangerous now. They wrote an op-ed
in "The Wall Street Journal." What did they say?
LA MONICA: Yes. It was very interesting. You had Paul Volcker, Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke and Janet Yellen, the four previous chairs of the
Federal Reserve. I'm going to read what we have -- what they wrote in "The Wall Street Journal."
And what they said is that, "Examples abound of political leaders calling for the central bank to implement a monetary policy that provides a short-
term boost to the economy around election time." But research has shown that "Monetary policy based on the political (rather than economic) needs
of the moment leads to worse economic performance in the long run."
I think the translation there is that the Fed is meant to be independent of politics. We saw that, obviously, with Obama, keeping Ben Bernanke even
though he was not the person that, you know, Obama appointed to the Fed chair. It was, you know, under George W. Bush that Ben Bernanke first came
And I think that, you know, Fed chairs have been accustomed to maybe quiet criticism from presidents if they didn't like interest rate hikes or cuts -
LA MONICA: -- but the president has been so vocal, going on Twitter. What maddening, I think, to many in the financial markets is that, "Wait a
minute, who appointed Jerome Powell again? Oh, yes. President Donald Trump." He didn't inherit this Fed chair and have to complain about him.
This is the person that he chose.
GORANI: He did not keep Janet Yellen. Thanks very much, Paul La Monica.
Coming up, the world has lost a literary icon. Toni Morrison has died, the Nobel and Pulitzer Prize-winning author leaves behind a powerful legacy.
We will remember Toni Morrison's life, next.
[14:20:55] GORANI: We have some sad news to report. Toni Morrison, the first African-American woman to win the Nobel Prize, has died at the age of
88. She was celebrated around the world for her books about the black experience. Her family says she died after a short illness, surrounded by
loved ones in New York.
Stephanie Elam has more now on the life and the legacy of Toni Morrison.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Toni Morrison, one of the world's most celebrated writers --
TONI MORRISON, AUTHOR: The point of writing is to take what's common and estrange it, make it new again.
TEXT: "If they put an iron circle around your neck I will bite it away." Toni Morrison, "Beloved"
MORRISON: And to take what's strange, and familiarize it.
ELAM (voice-over): Born Chloe Anthony Wofford in 1931, Morrison had an interest in storytelling at a very young age. Her father often told her
African-American folk tales, something she would later weave into her work.
Morrison attended both Howard and Cornell Universities. She began teaching at the height of the Civil Rights Movement. It was then, Chloe became
known as "Toni Morrison." Toni, a nickname, and Morrison, the last name of her ex-husband.
During her time teaching, she began sharing stories with a campus writing group. One of those stories became her first book, "The Bluest Eye."
Released in 1970, the novel was praised for its in-depth look at race and American beauty standards, but criticized for its explicit nature.
TEXT: "... all the world had agreed that a blue-eyed, yellow-haired, pink- skinned doll was what every child treasured." Toni Morrison, "The Bluest Eye"
ELAM (voice-over): Morrison became more widely known in 1977, with "Song of Solomon." The book was a feature selection for the Book of the Month
Club, the first written by an African-American in nearly 40 years.
Morrison became known for characters who challenged views on race and gender.
MORRISON: I don't describe any of my characters. I mean, a little bit. You know, "This (ph) is tall, short, man, woman." But nobody knows what
they look like. And the reason is deliberate. Because I want you to do that.
TEXT: "In three words or less, it's a hair-raiser." The New York Times
ELAM (voice-over): No novel had greater impact than "Beloved," loosely based on a true story of a runaway slave. The book won the Pulitzer Prize
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sadie?
ELAM (voice-over): A decade later, Oprah Winfrey took the story to the silver screen. But the film tanked at the box office.
Morrison's prolific storytelling was acknowledged internationally. In 1993, she became the first black woman to win the Nobel Prize in
literature. The same year, she nearly lost it all in a fire on Christmas Day. Only a portion of her manuscripts survived.
But tragedy struck again, Christmas of 2010. Her son, Slade, died of pancreatic cancer. The death weighed heavily on Morrison, and she didn't
write a sentence for months.
Toni Morrison left an indelible mark on literature, spanning over five decades. While presenting her with the Presidential Medal of Freedom,
President Obama said this.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Toni Morrison's prose brings us that kind of moral and emotional intensity that few writers ever
GORANI: And in just the last few minutes, Oprah Winfrey has reacted to Toni Morrison's death. She writes, "She was our conscience, our seer, our
truth-teller. She was a magician with language, who understood the power of words. She used them to roil us, to wake us, to educate us and help us
grapple with our deepest wounds and try to comprehend them." That reaction, from Oprah Winfrey.
For more on Toni Morrison's impact, I'm joined now by Bonnie Greer. She's a columnist for "The New European" newsletter and author, playwright and
So one of the things that I -- one of the quotes from her that I thought was so interesting, now that she's passed: "I never asked Tolstoy to write
for me, a little colored girl in Lorain, Ohio. I never asked Joyce not to mention Catholicism or the world of Dublin, never. And I don't know why I
should be asked to explain your life to you." Essentially saying, "For me, people are black people. That's my world, that's what I know. That's what
a writer does."
[14:25:07] BONNIE GREER, COLUMNIST, THE NEW EUROPEAN: I think what she was saying was, that "I have a world." And that world, I'm going to give you,
in all of its shape, its imaginarium. And for African-Americans, African- Caribbeans, Afro-Europeans, the whole meta-African continuum. She said, "I'm going to give all of that to you, and I'm going to give you it in its
language the way Tolstoy did, the way, especially, Joyce did."
GORANI: Because she says, essentially, "I don't need to write a universal novel. I need to write the story that I know. Then it becomes a universal
GREER: Well, partly -- remember, she was an editor.
GREER: So a lot of the things that came over her -- I'm sure, her desk -- were people attempting to do that --
GREER: -- because that's how you got published. If you couldn't write a novel as a black person or a black woman that reached out to the general
public, you probably weren't going to get published. So people sort of unconsciously tried to do that. She said no.
GORANI: She came from that place. What is your -- what do you think her lasting legacy is?
GREER: She is, for me, up there with Walt Whitman, who I consider the inventor of American letters. She sits right next to him. He did it in
poetry, she did it in prose. And she, in fact, gave us an American landscape that is unconscious landscape.
And like him -- or he, like her -- they -- she never explained what it was. She said she didn't need to tell you what someone looked like, it's for you
to imagine it. She gave a language, she gave terms of condition, and she never compromised that language.
So like a great musician -- because she was -- she laid --
GORANI: What kind of musician was she?
GREER: She was a jazz musician.
GREER: But in prose. So she laid out the whole sort of tempo, and allowed us to come inside of it and make what we wanted out of it. Very, very
difficult thing to do in prose.
GORANI: And there was some personal tragedy, we saw it in that piece. Her son died of pancreatic cancer.
GORANI: What was her personal life like? What was her trajectory like?
GREER: I don't know. To be honest with you, I never read about writers' personal lives. Because that actually nothing to do with anything,
especially when you're dealing with someone as great as this.
You know, I know bits and pieces of her life.
GREER: But it didn't impinge or even shape what she did. She started from a place of being a daughter of the Great Migration. I'm a granddaughter of
the Great Migration, People who came up from the South after World War I to make their lives in the cities of the north, but at the same time, held
onto the South --
GREER: -- and from there, held on to being kidnapped from African, years ago.
GORANI: And she has said and told Oprah Winfrey, among others, "Once you have the job you want, you've achieved what you want to achieve, your job
is then to empower others."
GREER: That is your only job. Your job is legacy. And I met her in a legacy situation, and she was extremely generous --
GORANI: What did she tell you?
GREER: I -- she just said, "Keep working." And, you know, "I love what you do." I don't know if she did or not, but she said, "Keep working. And
do what you do."
GORANI: If Toni Morrison tells you, "I love what you do," you can pretty much retire.
GREER: Well -- well, not so much that, not so much that. But you know, you know that you have permission to do it.
GORANI: Sure, yes.
GREER: And that's it.
GORANI: Bonnie Greer, as always, thanks so much. Appreciate your time this evening.
GREER: Thank you, thank you.
GORANI: Still to come, we'll go live to El Paso, a shattered community, mourning victims of the weekend shooting massacre. We'll hear from a
family that lost not one, but two loved ones.
[14:28:42] And political leaders in the U.S. are coming under increasing pressure to act on gun control. Will this time be any different? We'll be
[14:30:14] HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: People in Texas and Ohio are preparing to bury parents, spouses, sons, and daughters after this past
weekend's mass shootings. People gunned down while shopping on a Saturday morning or going out for a night.
Now, here's something that underscores the arbitrariness of it all. Police in El Paso say the suspect just happened upon the Walmart where he opened
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF GREG ALLEN, EL PASO, TEXAS: He took about 10 to 11 hours traveling from Allen, Texas to El Paso. As soon as he got here, he was lost in a
neighborhood. After that, he found his way to the Walmart because, we understand he was hungry, and that's about as far as I can go without
getting into too much detail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Twenty-two people were killed at that Walmart.
Meantime, President Donald Trump is planning to visit that Walmart but some people want him to stay home instead.
CNN's Sara Sidner joins me now live with the very latest and also more on the victims. Sara?
SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We sat down with a family who lost a couple, a daughter and son-in-law who were inside, just doing some back to
school shopping. They had dropped off their 5-year-old daughter to go to a camp, right next door inside the mall, and they went on to Walmart as they
held their 2-month-old baby boy. Neither of those parents made it out alive.
SIDNER (voice-over): The Jamrowski family can't hold back their tears as they recount the loss they're experiencing.
Misti and Paul Jamrowski's son-in-law, Andre Anchando, and their daughter, Jordan, were two of 22 people killed by a suspected terrorist at an El Paso
MISTI JAMROWSKI, VICTIM'S MOTHER: We pray a lot and we have a lot of family and friends. But you're just broken. Like, you go to call her and
you forget that she's not there.
SIDNER: Leta and Ashley lost their sister and brother-in-law.
ASHLEY JAMROWSKI, VICTIM'S SISTER: It's like her and Andre were my heart. It's like I lost a part of me.
SIDNER: Liz Terry and Jesse Jamrowski lost a niece and nephew.
5-year-old, Skylin, lost her mother and stepfather.
SKYLIN, 5 YEARS OLD: I love my mom and dad.
SIDNER: Her brother, 2-month-old, Paul Gilbert, was in his mother's arms when she crashed to the ground after being shot.
M. JAMROWSKI: The shooter had aimed at Jordan, and Andre jumped in front of Jordan, and the shooter shot Andre and the bullets went through Andre
and hit Jordan.
SIDNER: Both were killed, leaving Paul Gilbert orphaned and injured.
PAUL JAMROWSKI, FATHER OF VICTIM: And the sad thing is, is that even with all of us, it's mom and dad. We can't replace mom and dad. Those were --
that's just something you can't replace.
SIDNER: This is the devastating ripple effect of murder, the pain slicing across generations.
After all the hate spewed by the suspected gunman, the Jamrowskis say they're sticking to something else to get through the hurt, love, faith,
Before they have even had a chance to bury the dead, they had a message for the killer.
M. JAMROWSKI: We forgive him. We honestly forgive him. We pray for him. We hope that he finds God, because God teaches you to be loving.
SIDNER: You'll hear that there's forgiveness in the face of hate from a mother who lost her daughter and son-in-law. We should also mention that
they are extremely, of course, concerned for the three children that have been left behind in this tragedy, that have lost a mother, a step dad, and
[14:35:08] One of those children, Skylin, that you've heard from there could only get the words out "I love mom and dad," but she has also asked
whether the shooter is going to come after her next. Hala?
GORANI: It is just - it's just so important to highlight what the victims go through after such a horrific, senseless act like the one we saw in
Texas, in El Paso.
The president is coming to El Paso and some there are saying, don't bother. What kind of -- what kind of reception will he get?
SIDNER: It depends. Like many places in this country, there is a division between those who, of course, support the president and those who would
rather he not be president. There is certainly a contingent of people here who plan on protesting, telling him that they don't want him here because
they believe his language, the language that he has used --
GORANI: OK. Lost --
SIDNER: -- throughout his term as president has been racist, has been anti-immigrant, has been damaging for the Hispanics here in this country
and they believe he is part of the problem, not the solution, Hala.
GORANI: Sara Sidner in El Paso, thanks very much.
As America reels from these horrific attacks, many believe the answer lies in gun control. The former vice president, Joe Biden, running for
president, is among those calling for political action on this. He says he'll ban assault weapons if elected president and he's joining other 2020
hopefuls in condemning President Trump's divisive rhetoric. He sat down with CNN's Anderson Cooper. Here's part of that exclusive interview.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Does anybody think it made any sense that someone is able to walk into a gun store, buy an assault weapon
that has multiple rounds or buy an assault weapon that has a hundred rounds, even though it may not -- you can't point to the fact that it, in
fact, had stopped it before, do you want more of them on the street? Do we want to do that?
COOPER: So to gun owners out there who say, "Well, a Biden administration means they're going to come for my guns."
BIDEN: Bingo. You're right, if you have an assault weapon. The fact of the matter is they should be illegal, period.
Look, the Second Amendment doesn't say you can't restrict the kinds of weapons people can own. You can't buy a bazooka. You can't have a
The guys who make these arguments are the people who say, "The tree of liberty is watered with the blood of patriots. We need the protection
against the government. We need an F-15 for that." You need something well beyond, whether or not, you're going to have an assault weapon.
COOPER: So would you -- how would you deal with all the assault weapons that are already out there that people have?
BIDEN: What I would do is I would try to -- I would institute a national buy-back program. And I would move it in the direction of making sure that
that, in fact, was what we tried to do, get them off the street.
COOPER: But that's not confiscating people.
BIDEN: No. That's not walking into their homes, knocking on their doors, going through their gun cabinets, et cetera.
COOPER: So people would be allowed to keep the weapons they already have?
BIDEN: Right now, there's no legal way that I'm aware of that you could deny them the right if they've had purchased -- legally purchased them.
But we can, in fact, make a major effort to get them off the street and out of the possession of people.
COOPER: Do you think President Trump is afraid of the NRA? Because he -- he -- you know, he called in members of Congress, and he was making fun,
even, of some members of Congress saying that they were scared of the NRA. He said he would take -- he would take it on, and then --
BIDEN: No, the first thing he did, he showed up at the NRA, and he spoke to them nationally and said, "Mea culpa. Mea culpa." You know, "What do
you need?" Basically.
COOPER: Do you think he's beholden to the NRA still?
BIDEN: Well, I think he's beholden to his base. I think it's his base. I think he's beholden to the NRA, because a significant portion of his base
is made up of people who he has identified as being -- you know, dividing people into those are good guys and bad guys. Those who, in fact are --
you know, he preaches division. That's what it's all about.
GORANI: Joe Biden, they are calling for a ban on assault weapons and as the U.S. seeks to contain this epidemic of mass shootings, many Americans
have voiced their support for that position and have expressed their frustration at the political inaction on gun control and it seems one man,
in particular, has become the focus of that frustration, Mitch McConnell, majority leader of the U.S. Senate under increasing pressure to allow gun
control legislation that passed the House, and in some cases passed the Senate to go through. He's previously blocked such measures from the
I'm joined now by CNN political commentator, Scott Jennings, he's also a former senior adviser to Mitch McConnell. Scott Jennings, thanks for being
with us. Do you think this El Paso shooting and how the country has just united in grief and united in demands for political action will change
anything on Capitol Hill this time?
[14:40:03] SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do, actually. And I'm sort of a glass half full kind of political commentator. I think the
country wants something to happen. And it's not just these two tragedies. You know, we go back to the Parkland shooting, the shooting in Texas in
Sutherland Springs, we've had a number of mass shootings.
And I think the public wants to know what can we do. I do think Americans understand it's basically impossible to legislate all evil and bad actors
out of humanity, but that doesn't mean politicians of goodwill in both parties can't come together and try to do what's possible and do everything
that they can do.
That's why I think background check has a reasonable chance in a process here. I think some people are looking at something that are called red
flag laws that would allow and give more flexibility for people to report those who may be a danger to themselves or to others.
And then I, personally, said that I think the high capacity magazines or drums like the ones that the shooter in Dayton used, should be on the
table. Because we already have a ban on machine guns and fully automatic weapons in this country. And having a hundred of round drum attached to a
semiautomatic weapon, sort of is, is kind of -- in my opinion a loophole.
GORANI: But that's all --
JENNINGS: So I think there's a few things that are within the --
GORANI: That's all common sense. But Mitch McConnell is being pressured a lot, because he's being seen as the one who's blocked in the past some of
this legislation that passed the House and then he's prevented it from being voted on. Do you -- do you think that he's feeling pressure now to
let go on some of this?
JENNINGS: Well, I think he's certainly hearing from a lot of people around the country that believe the time is right for the American Congress to do
something, I think that's why he sent out a statement last night saying that he'd asked the committee chairs of the three relevant committees in
the Senate to talk to members in both parties on their committees about what they could come to common agreement on.
I know he's talked to Lindsey Graham, for instance, who's the head of the judiciary committee, who apparently already has an agreement with Democrat,
Richard Blumenthal, of Connecticut on the red flag law idea that I mentioned.
So it strikes me that the process is already underway. I think there are people who are agitating for the Senate to on the session today. But that
would, of course, I think, circumvent what I've heard Senator McConnell say that he wants and that's something that is as bipartisan as possible. So
that everybody, in both parties, feels like they have buy-ins.
I think the process will play out in August, and I think if you get both parties at the table, there are definitely things within the realm of the
possible here. As long as the extremes in both parties don't derail what could be a bipartisan process.
GORANI: So what's different this time? Because we've had horrific shootings in America before. There was even Sandy Hook where 6-year-olds
were murdered. Why is this time different, do you think?
JENNINGS: You know, I think that you could look at any issue that's been controversial in American politics and look and see what point was it that
there was the tipping point, the boiling point where things changed. Really in relation to the Parkland shooting that I mentioned earlier and
the school in Parkland, you know, the Congress did act last year. They appropriated a lot of money for school security and they also updated what
is already in existence in America, which is the national criminal background check system.
So things have happened before. I remember when I worked for President George W. Bush, after the Virginia Tech shooting, which was a big mass
shooting during the Bush administration, we had a Republican president and Democrats who were in charge of Congress, they came together in addition to
the people that were the pro-gun activists and anti-gun activists and they all agreed on the piece of legislation they've passed under Virginia Tech.
So there had bene moments, I think, that sort of service the template, but now you can move forward.
GORANI: But this legislation has done nothing to prevent these weapons of war from landing in the hands of mass murderers. There's no assault rifle
ban, there's no limit, really, on the amount of ammunition you can buy.
I mean, if you wanted to and Dayton, Ohio is a perfect example, I mean, this is someone who had a kill list a few years ago, could walk, pretty
much, into any store in most states and buy these weapons. Is there any appetite to control that?
JENNINGS: I think that the idea of banning certain weapons and/or confiscating certain weapons via some sort of a mandatory buyback program
would be extremely controversial and has the capacity to derail this process. This is where the two parties --
GORANI: But those two things are very different, banning weapons and confiscating them are extremely different things. The second one, I
understand would be politically virtually impossible.
But the first one was a reality in the United States. This isn't - this wouldn't be a new law. This has existed in the past.
JENNINGS: Yes. I'm just telling you the political reality, that that's where you get into more controversial territory between the parties, which
is why, I think, in the wake of all this, I've been thinking about, well, where would be the areas of most likely common ground? You mentioned the
Dayton shooter. This is exactly the kind of person that would be flagged with a red flag law.
As you mentioned, he had a number of red flags. And if there was a system in existence where someone could have reported him to a no-buy registry,
that is exactly the kind of person that this no-buy, a red flag law could have stopped.
[14:45:05] So in the past, one of the questions that people always ask is, is the law that you're proposing, would it have stopped the shooting that
you're talking about? And in many cases, the answer has been no.
I think in the case of the red flag law is we can definitely point to Dayton, certainly we can point to Parkland and say, yes, I think the red
flag law, very well, could have prevented the tragedy.
So I actually think we have a better answer for that question today than we've ever had in this debate.
Scott Jennings, appreciate it. Thanks for joining us on CNN.
AS if the loss of life was not terrible enough, but appears the suspected gunman in El Paso was trying to kill immigrants. He traveled more than a
thousand kilometers to get to El Paso, likely because that community has a regular flow of people back and forth across the U.S.-Mexico border. And,
in fact, among the dead were, at least, eight Mexican citizens.
Joining me now live from the Mexican side of the border is CNN's Patrick Oppmann with more on the grief being felt there. Patrick?
PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hala, what people tell us we find so disturbing here is not just that this shooting took place, that it did cost
the lives of so many Americans and, at least, eight Mexican citizens or eight Mexicans and one person who may have had both countries.
But that Mexicans, as you said, were targeted that is with alleged shooter, went after these people, target these people, because of their ethnicity.
And to give you an idea of how common it is to go back and forth, you know, this is the border crossing right now. It's not very busy because,
throughout the day, there are four bridges like this that connect El Paso and Juarez, there are cars going back and forth and people who are able to
say it's very common if you live on the Mexican side and you're able to just across the border to go shopping, to visit family. Some people have
family on both sides of the border or to go shopping.
And one man that who was one of the victims, his name is Ivan Manzano, apparently, went to Walmart to do a little bit of shopping. We talked to
some of his colleagues earlier and to describe someone that they work with for years out a radio station, just across from where I am, a dedicated
father, he had two young children, he was caring for his ailing mother. And they said for them that he went to run a quick errand and that he never
So that's something they cannot get their minds around, particularly because Ciudad Juarez is a dangerous place, there are 1,200 murders here,
it is an epicenter of the drug problems in Mexico.
But just across the border, just a mile from where I am now, El Paso is one of the safest cities, world's one of the safest cities in the United
States, with only about 20 homicides here last year. So this is what really is reverberating across both these communities is the sense that
there really are no more safe places. And if somebody from here, from Juarez, can be targeted because of their ethnicity. Hala?
GORANI: All right. Thanks, Patrick Oppmann.
Still to come tonight, tensions rise once again in one of the world's most dangerous flashpoints, Kashmir. The major move today by India's parliament
and how Pakistan is responding is coming up.
GORANI: Well, I want to take to you El Paso now where one of the people wounded in that Walmart shooting is speaking to reporters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OCTAVIO RAMIRO LIZARDE, WOUNDED IN EL PASO SHOOTING: I just feel grateful that I'm alive. He had the chance to kill me but he didn't. I don't know
if God is with me and (INAUDIBLE) against me. I did lose my nephew right in front of me. I won't go into details, but it was a horrible image and I
hope nobody ever goes through (INAUDIBLE) people. And I just hope that my family and I get better emotionally and I thank everybody in the city or in
the country who's helping us and the other ones that are affected by the shooting, I hope they are OK as well.
[14:50:38] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Octavio, we know you have a long road to recovery with this. So grateful for you for entrusting us with your care
around this. You're familiar with the additional surgeries that you're going to need to have around this, right?
LIZARDE: Yes, doctor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Octavio, if you can tell us the moment that you heard the gunshot?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: This is a live news conference there organized by one of the hospitals that has been treating victims of that Walmart shooting over the
weekend in El Paso. This young man's name is Octavio Lizarde, who was shot who's going to be requiring further treatment and who described that he saw
his nephew killed there. He, clearly, still very much traumatized. One of the victims, one of the many victims of that El Paso Walmart shooting.
Now, to a ratcheting up of tensions between two nuclear armed nations, India and Pakistan. India's parliament has voted to change the status of
the state of Jammu and Kashmir. It's a highly contentious move that will give New Delhi greater authority over a very much disputed region.
Now, the state is on lockdown for a second day and Pakistan's prime minister is coming out with some strong words saying the ideology of
India's ruling party is, quote, "That Muslims should be ethnically cleansed in India."
Sam Kiley has that story.
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Indian troops move quickly to stifle opposition to a red line crossed imposing
total rule over the disputed Muslim majority, state of Jammu and Kashmir. A sudden vote to amend India's constitution, which had guaranteed semi-
autonomy for the region --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The (INAUDIBLE) adopted.
KILEY: -- was swiftly passed, appending 70 years of Indian and international law, was reinforced with the deployment of thousands of
Indian troops and the house arrest of two former chief ministers of the region.
Mehbooba Mufti tweeted, "Today marks the darkest day in Indian democracy. The decision of the J&K leadership to reject the two-nation theory in 1947
and align with India has backfired. The unilateral decision of the government of India to scrap article 370 is illegal and unconstitutional,
which will make India an occupational force in Jammu and Kashmir."
India has played years of terror attacks by Muslim separatists on Pakistan, which Pakistan denies. But the Pakistani's response to India's move was
swift and threatening.
RAJA FAROOQ HAIDER, PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN-CONTROLLED KASHMIR (through translator0: If India dares to try any mischief in Azad Kashmir, by God, I
tell you, every man, woman, and child will stand up with their armed forces. So God-willing, we will be making a cemetery for the Indian
soldiers, God-willing, God-willing, inside Kashmir.
KILEY: The danger of violent backlash prompted another former chief minister to tweet from house arrest. Omar Abdullah said, "To the people of
Kashmir, we don't know what is in store for us, but I'm a firm believer that whatever almighty Ala has planned, it is always for the better. We
may not see it now, but we must never doubt his ways. Good luck to everyone. Stay safe, and above all, please stay calm."
Foreigners were ordered out of Indian Kashmir where phone and internet connections were cut immediately after the disputed annexation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More news from Kashmir.
KILEY: Kashmir joined India in independence from Britain and partition from Pakistan in 1947. Pakistan captured about a third of its territory
and still runs that. India took much of what remained and gave significant autonomy to it. But since then India and Pakistan have fought two wars
Today, the stakes could not be higher. Both countries have nuclear weapons.
Sam Kiley, CNN.
GORANI: Here in London, we're getting more information after an incident at London's most visited tourist attraction. A 17-year-old has appeared in
court charged with attempted murder after a 6-year-old was allegedly thrown from a 10th floor viewing gallery at the Tate Modern Gallery on Sunday.
[14:55:03] Prosecutor said the victim is in the hospital with bleeding on his brain and fractures to his spine, legs, and arms.
We will be right back.
GORANI: Calls are growing across the U.S. for action on gun control following the recent mass shootings, even going as far as the football
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Congress, do something now, end gun violence. Let's go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: That's Alejandro Bedoya, team captain for Major League Soccer's Philadelphia Union, calling out Congress during the game. The midfielder,
who's played more than 60 times for the United States national team has just spoken to CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEJANDRO BEDOYA, AMERICAN SOCCER PLAYER: What I said was politically nonpartisan. Everything these days can be pretty much political. But this
is something that came from a humanitarian standpoint. If you're a sane human being, you would want to be for -- and reduce and eliminate gun
violence. I mean, how could you not? Only in America can you kind of have this disagreement or argument against that.
But, you know, I've always been a vocal person. Like I said, I spoke on behalf of a lot of Americans and people even across the world.
AMANDA DAVIES, CNN WORLD SPORT CORRESPONDENT: When you hear President Trump speaking as he did on Monday saying perhaps more has to be done, what
is your message to him about that?
BEDOYA: Take out the word perhaps. More needs to be done. We have a gun violence problem in this country that no other civilized nation in the
world has. Let's be better, as Americans, as people, as families, as communities. Let's support on each other, build one each other, and not be
so divisive and have this terrible political divisive rhetoric that's been going on in this country. So I'm hopeful. I have faith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, you can see that full interview on "WORLD SPORT" at 10:30 P.M. at London time.
Thanks for watching tonight. I'm Hala Gorani. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next.