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S.E. Cupp Unfiltered

Police Reports, El Paso Suspect Said He Was Targeting Mexicans; Sen. Peggy Lehner (R-OH) On Supporting Gun Control Legislation; 2020 Democrats Talk Gun Control On The Trail In Iowa; Axios: Trump Allies Think "White Supremacist" Accusations Will Help Him Politically In 2020; Sources: Jeffrey Epstein Dies In Apparent Suicide In Jail Cell; Epstein's Death Comes One Day After Disturbing Court Documents Unsealed. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired August 10, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[18:00:00]

S.E. CUPP, CNN HOST: Welcome to UNFILTERED, where tonight we address the Untied States of Hate. It's been one week since 31 people were killed in mass shootings in El Paso and Dayton.

It's worth pointing out those two shootings followed another one week earlier in Gilroy, California, where three people including a six- year-old and 13-year-old were killed by an angry guy with a gun.

Amidst all this, many Americans are calling for more gun laws. Democrats have offered a wide array, from universal background checks and raising the minimum age requirements, to suing gun manufacturers and banning assault-style weapons.

Some Republicans lawmakers have expressed an openness. But how sincere and serious they are remains to be seen.

Now, for years, as you might know, I've gone on television and made the case for the second amendment, the right to bear arms, I've pointed out that criminals don't follow gun laws and I've defended the NRA and its members, law abiding gun owners like me who have nothing to do with mass shootings or violent gun crimes. I've done that because I am a gun owner and a gun rights' advocate, and I believed it was true.

But I am no longer an NRA member. Being right no longer feels righteous because in the wake of more mass shootings, acts of senseless violence that send innocent people running for their lives, leaving children orphaned, loved ones dead on the ground. We must do something about guns. We have a problem in this country and that problem is hate.

Tonight, I'm going to spend most of the hour talking about hate and what we can do about it. But one of the things we must do to begin to solve our hate problem is to put down our metaphorical weapons, our defense, our special interests and finally be honest about the role that guns play in this culture of hate in America. And the honest, simple answer is it is too many for too many sick people to get their hands on guns.

People with the kind of hate in their hearts as the El Paso and Dayton shooters, the Sutherland Springs in Charleston church shooters, Las Vegas, San Bernardino shooters, I can go on and on, they're not going to be cured of their hate by taking away their guns, but we also don't need to just hand them a killing device and 100 rounds of ammo and say, please don't do anything bad with these.

A kid who shows videos of mass shootings on a first date who was suspended from school for having a hit list and a rape list should never have had access to a gun of any kind, period. Domestic abusers should never have access to a gun of any kind, period. People who make violent threats against individuals or groups of people should be taken dead seriously, investigated thoroughly and ultimately maybe never have access to a gun of any kind, period.

Our gun laws should make it harder, if not, impossible for people who hate to carry out their violent fantasies. And right now, our gun lies make it too damn easy. Universal background checks, gun violence restraining orders, raising the age of gun purchases to 21, banning 100 round drums, fixing our NICS system, investing in mental health inside our schools, these things cannot wait.

I am so sick and tired of participating in this predictable cycle of politics where a mass shooting happens, the left calls for new gun laws, some meaningful, some unproductive. The right yells slippery slope and hides behind the Constitution. Nothing happens. Nothing changes. And with the next mass shooting, we do it all over again.

Look, I love the Constitution but it's still a document. It's meant to protect human beings, real people, life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. What happiness are we protecting if our kids are afraid to go to school? What liberty are we protecting if we don't feel safe at the mall or walking down the street? What lives are we protecting when we arm a 21-year-old white supremacist with 100 rounds of ammo only so he can shoot up dozens people at a Walmart, including a two- month-old child?

I know I will be accused of letting my emotions get in the way of facts here. I've made that accusation before. But this is an emotional issue. How could it not be? In fact, it should be more emotional. And to my friends in the Republican Party, at the NRA on the side of gun rights, if you're not emotional about this, join me, won't you? Let's start with emotion.

[18:04:58]

There's a lot we can accomplish if we start as humans, not NRA lobbyists or gun control lobbyists, not special interest groups or politicians, but as humans, moms, dads, brothers, sisters, friends, colleagues, because we have everything to lose if we don't.

I'm joined now by Peggy Lehner, Republican State Senator from Ohio, who is calling for action on gun control.

First, I just want to ask. You're in Dayton. I know the first funerals for victims begin today. I wonder how they community is a week after this horrific tragedy.

SEN. PEGGY LEHNER (R-OH): The community is still in shock. You don't begin to comprehend just how horrible this is until it lands on your door step. And as we stand here in the Oregon District, part of the community I've visited many, many times, and just feel the pain that's down here.

I talked to the six-year-old son of one of the victims today at his mother's funeral. And those sorts of things has really hit home. And your words were so powerful. I totally agree with everything you just said. And so I appreciate the opportunity to join me here tonight.

CUPP: Well, our hearts are with you and the victims and their families. And I want to keep them front and center in our conversations. But, naturally, the conversation after this shifts to politics, and you have said you're personally embarrassed that common sense gun laws are only proposed by Democrats. So what are you calling for now?

LEHNER: Well, I'm getting behind the governor -- the governor came out on Tuesday, Governor DeWine, with a 14-point proposal that's everything from background checks, red flag legislation, dealing with mental health issues, dealing with some of our laws around what occurred -- what happens when a criminal uses a gun. I think that's a good list and, you know, it's certainly a great place to start.

I don't have the highest of hopes that we're going to be able to get it through. I have the same concern that you do, that we'll cry about it today, we'll shake our heads, we'll say, something has to be done, but two weeks from now, the cameras move on to another community and we're left no different than we were. But maybe this time it will be different in Ohio, maybe.

CUPP: Well, I mean, as you mention, your Republican governor, Mike DeWine, has proposed gun control legislation. Republican congressman from Illinois, Adam Kinzinger, called for some of the same things, as well as banning 100-round drums, raising the age minimum. Republican governor of Arizona, Doug Ducey, is renewing calls for what he calls severe threat order of protections against people who are believed to be a danger to themselves or others.

So I am seeing movement among Republicans that I haven't always seen in the past. Is this the time for Republicans to break with the usual cycle of resistance and come to the table?

LEHNER: You know, I hate to say that it takes three mass shootings in one week to get people to change their mind, but maybe that's what it's going to take. You know, I'm slightly more hopeful. I've been working to pick up co-sponsors on some of this legislation the governor has proposed. I'm not having a lot of luck so far. But we'll be back in session here shortly and I'll have more opportunity to talk to folks. And hopefully they'll come around. I'm just praying that happens.

CUPP: Well, as you know, an overwhelming majority of Americans support universal background checks. 84 percent of Republicans support them too. A majority of gun owners and NRA members support them. I'm not suggesting they'll prevent every mass shooting, but shouldn't this just be a question of whether the president has the will to get that past federally?

LEHNER: Well, there's no question, we're going to need the president to stick to his promises. And I hope he isn't going to backtrack on his position on background checks as he has in the past. Hopefully, this time, he really means it, because it is going to take that kind of support from Washington, I think, to move the party, to keep the NRA from stepping in and dominating the conversation. So let's hope he stays where he's at.

CUPP: Yes. You said you hoped that the president would be moved when he came to Dayton in the shooting aftermath. As you know, he visited Dayton and El Paso and bragged about crowd sizes and started fights local leaders and the media. Did that offend you?

LEHNER: You know, I wish that there had not been a political slant to the whole thing because, you know, if we allow this to become overly politicized, we're not going to make the progress we need to make. We need all Americans to come together right now, Republicans, Democrats, Independents.

[18:10:02]

We need them to leave their politics at home and start looking for the sort of constructive concrete solutions to this problem that is actually going to make a difference.

And if we're just pointing at each other, yelling and screaming about party politics, that's not going to happen.

CUPP: Well, Ohio State Senator Peggy Lehner, I hope people on both sides of the aisle, I hope the president, I hope everyone is listening too. And we're thinking about your community and I really appreciate you coming on tonight.

LEHNER: Thank you so much.

CUPP: Next in our conversation about hate in America, it's one thing to say the right things, it's quite another to do them. Yet Republicans, including the president, don't seem concerned about the urgency of now.

And later, law enforcement officials say the politically-connected financier and accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein took his own life this morning. So what happens to all those investigations and justice for his victims?

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have a great relationship with the NRA. They supported me very early and that's been a great decision they made. (END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:15:00]

CUPP: For decades, the NRA has been the Democrats' boogeyman, the insurmountable hurdle standing in the way of any and all -- all gun control legislation. But the NRA of York (ph) is not the strongman it once was.

Last week, three members of the NRA Board of Directors resigned over, quote, shattered confidence in leadership. There are a number of lawsuits, including against the CEO, Wayne LaPierre, over his lavish spending. There are dual investigations by State AGs. There was a Russian spy scandal. There's public-end (ph) fighting between leaders and even an attempted coup. A steep 22 percent drop in membership dues to a five-year low in 2018, not to mention money woes. Revenue at the NRA fell by $54 million in 2017.

This is the backdrop for what Democratic lawmakers and presidential hopefuls promised to be a big fight for new gun laws.

President Trump says he will support background checks. And Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says red flag laws and background checks will be front and center when lawmakers return from recess in a month.

The NRA though is warning Trump not to take any action. Writing in a public statement, the NRA opposes any legislation that unfairly infringes upon the rights of law abiding citizens.

So is it now or never?

Joining me now to discuss are Assistant Editor at "The Washington Post," David Swerdlick, and Republican Strategist, Shermichael Singleton.

David, I know we've been here before, but do you think this time it's different that there is there too much public pressure and the NRA doesn't have the leverage it once did?

DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Never say never on gun legislation. But I do think it's going to be an uphill climb for people wanting to see something get through, mostly because of the Senate, mostly because of Majority Leader McConnell.

CUPP: Something or something big?

SWERDLICK: So here is the thing, two things, one, just timing-wise, Congress is in recess right now. I think Republicans are counting on people having moved on by the time they come back, McConnell is not going to bring the Senate back.

The second thing is that Democrats are going to have their initial offer be a whole raft of things, background checks, banning assault- style weapons, waiting periods, red flag laws, et cetera, et cetera, And if the Republican counteroffer is just maybe we'll do red flag laws, maybe, and in the background, the NRA is saying, President Trump, Senator McConnell, don't do anything, I think you're going to have a non-starter. I really think you're going to have a hard time getting a bill that you could even think about conferencing between the House and the Senate.

CUPP: Shermichael, where Trump sits though, I mean, he can really do anything.

SHERMICHAEL SINGLETON, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Ninety-seven percent approval within the Republican Party.

CUPP: That's right. I mean, I don't think anyone in his base is going to go away if he says, I'm for background checks, they say now, we are too.

SINGLETON: No, I think you're right. And in your opening, you talked about how not only a vast majority of registered Republicans support this but also a vast majority of gun owners, like myself, like you. I'm also a gun owner. And I do think this makes a lot of sense.

To your question though that you asked, David, I do think the NRA is in a weaker position than I would argue we have seen it in a very, very long time, with many of the financial issues, a lot of former members of the NRA have joined Gun Owners of America, a different organization. Now, they don't feel that the NRA speaks directly to them.

And so I think when you take away the issue of liberty, if you will, but talk more so to gun owners at a personal level, you guys have kids, you have grandkids, you have relatives. Do you want those individuals to be safe in a public space? I think the question would be yes. And by virtue of that, you can then, in turn, put pressure on Republicans in the Senate to say, guys, we're not asking you for too much, but let's do some common sense things.

SWERDLICK: Here's the trapdoor though, Shermichael, that I think we're dealing with here. Yes, polls show, as you said, S.E. that Americans want some gun control reform. What it is, we're not exactly sure. But it's members of Congress who take money from the NRA that that speaks louder in a lot of cases than when --

CUPP: Yes. But let me just point there's less of it to go around.

SINGLETON: That is true.

SWERDLICK: But it's still there.

CUPP: Yes.

SWERDLICK: The NRA, just as every lobbying group, knows that you don't have a lot of moderate districts now. People are firmly fixed, especially in the House, in either Republican or Democrat.

CUPP: But I just wonder if Trump can give them cover though --

SINGLETON: He can.

CUPP: If Trump can give a Republican lawmaker cover --

SWERDLICK: This is why he can't give them cover. Trump is not a conservative. This is one issue where he thinks like a Democrat, right? That's why you had that meeting last year where he was sitting around the conference table with Democratic and Republican congressional leaders saying, yes, sure, background checks. Why are you afraid of the NRA? And then they reeled him right back in.

SINGLETON: But, S.E., you talked about the NRA not having a lot of money. Like any organization --

CUPP: I mean, they have a lot of money, but they have less money that they used to, yes.

SINGLETON: But not as much as they did like maybe several years ago, right? And at the end of the day, they are responsible to the individuals who have membership with their organization.

I used to be a member of the NRA. I still get all of their emails. And let me tell you something, every single day, I'm getting an email about donating something, which indicates to me that there are financial woes there.

David, if you want to change this thing, if I were the Democrats, I would speak directly to the Republicans who polled that showcased stricter background checks. Therefore, maybe they're --

SWERDLICK: Shermichael, they're not worried about Democrats. They're worried about getting primaried from the right in part with this --

[18:20:01]

SINGLETON: No, David, but the strategy would be though to speak directly to those voters to, in turn, put pressure on those Republicans.

CUPP: Well, let me just ask you one more question before we have to go. Shermichael, you might be too young to remember 1994.

SINGLETON: I was only three or four.

CUPP: Right. But a lot of Democrats in Congress remember 1994 viscerally. They lost 54 seats in the House largely due to a 1994 assault weapons bill. Do you think that's a factor not Republicans, for some Democrats?

SWERDLICK: For some Democrats, you know, you have your Conor Lamb, another moderate, is not coming to mind. You have the gentleman from Staten Island on your show a few weeks ago, the congressman, right? Yes, maybe in some of those districts, there's just so many, fewer of them.

SINGLETON: But I think, S.E., it's all in how the question is posed. And that's what I think makes the ultimate determination.

CUPP: Well, I think that was my point too, that like, can we talk about this as humans? It's so hard to do because we're all used to talking about it in political terms. And I think we just --

SINGLETON: But (INAUDIBLE) have to stop, we're going to take all your weapons. They have to stop that rhetoric.

SWERDLICK: Who's saying that?

CUPP: Right, they're not for that either. All right, David and Shermichael, you guys are sticking around. That's how good you are.

Coming up in our continued discussion on the United States of hate, how are important conversations about hate, racial tensions and mass shootings taking over the 2020 election?

And just a day after the release of disturbing court documents, politically-connected businessman Jeffrey Epstein is found dead by apparent suicide. Stay with us.

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SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D-CA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People say to me did Donald Trump cause those folks to be killed?

[18:25:05]

Well, no, of course he didn't pull the trigger. But he's certainly been Tweeting out the ammunition.

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), SOUTH BEND, INDIANA, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If more guns on the street made everybody safe, we would be the safest place in the world.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to reduce gun deaths. We are going to make this a Congress, make this a government that is responsive to the will of the people. That's why we're here.

JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Who in God's name needs a weapon that can handle 100 rounds? For God's sake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Those were just four of the 16 2020 candidates speaking at the Gun Sense Forum hosted by gun control advocate groups in Iowa today. 21 Democrats in total are making stops at the politically critical Iowa State Fair.

But this year, the usually upbeat and folksy event feels different. It comes just a week after two mass shootings and against the backdrop of the president's race-baiting attacks on minority members of Congress. How does all of this change the calculus for 2020 or doesn't it?

Back with me now, Assistant Editor for "The Washington Post," CNN Political Commentator David Swerdlick and Republican strategist Shermichael Singleton

David, almost half of the 2020 Democratic candidates have come out to call the president a white nationalist or white supremacist, including Beto O'Rourke, Elizabeth Warren, Pete Buttigieg. Is that going too far?

SWERDLICK: I don't know if it's going too far. I think if you really have that in your mind that that is the way you want to frame it as Congressman O'Rourke has, as Senator Warren has, then you should say it. I personally don't feel the need to attach that label that sounds, in some ways, to a lot of people, I think, narrow or maybe even clinical. I would just say, the president is a garden variety racist and leave it at that.

He's a race baiter. He delights in race-baiting and use it for political gain. Do we know what's in his heart? No, we don't know what is in his heart.

CUPP: Shermichael, the president himself has said, call me a nationalist. That's not a bad word. So why wouldn't we take him at his own word?

SINGLETON: I mean, look, S.E., I would sort of caution Democrats here. Because we know for a fact 2020 is going to ultimately come down to turn out. That's it, turn out. Can you maximize your voters in those key swing states?

And telling people the same thing who already agree with you, they've made this determination, I would argue, two years ago. What are you going to argue to those individuals who have decided to stay home? I'm giving you A, B, C and D to actually improve your lives, to give you a reason, if you will, to come out this time around versus staying at home before. And I'm not really seeing a lot attention paid to those issues.

CUPP: Well, David, the Trump campaign, according to Axios, they love this. They see that, as rallying that his base and even alienating some moderates that Shermichael was talking about, who think it's going too far.

One Trump campaign official said, they, Democrats, are trying to make the case that anyone who supports this president is a racist. They're talking about nearly half the country. I don't think that's totally genuine. Are they right about the political implications of this?

SWERDLICK: I think they're definitely right to say that the president feels comfortable playing on this ground. He doesn't feel comfortable talking, getting in the weeds of healthcare or environment. He's comfortable in the weeds of the race debate because he knows where he stands in it. Whether or not it's 3D or 4D chess that's going to help Trump hold on to swing voters or right voters who might be on the fence about some of these issues, I'm not sure, we're going to see.

But here's the thing. If you're a Democrat, maybe you don't use the term white supremacist. But at some point, if you're not calling out the racist statements at least, the racism, then you're not serving your constituency and you're not being honest.

CUPP: Yes, they are. I think they are.

SINGLETON: Yes, they are. But there are a lot of people who voted for Donald Trump, who support Donald Trump, who are white Americans, who are not racist people. That is a fact.

CUPP: Yes.

SINGLETON: And when you make these broad sweeping statements, you do isolate a lot of people. And I think Democrats need to be very, very clear on that distinction.

CUPP: Well, I haven't heard any say, I think Trump is a white supremacist and so are all his voters.

SINGLETON: Right. But that's how people -- I would argue, I see a lot of people across America are interpreting it that way.

And, again, back to my original point, you need to give people a reason to vote for you. If I'm a Kamala Harris or Elizabeth Warren and I'm a Democratic voter, and I'm looking at those candidates, I'm thinking to myself, I know Trump is a horrible person if I'm a Democrat. I get that. But what else are you going to do for the bread and butter issues to make my life better? And they're not talking about these things.

SWERDLICK: Wait a second, Shermichael.

SINGLETON: They're not, David.

SWERDLICK : So you're a Republican strategist.

SINGLETON: So I'm biased.

SWERDLICK: Of course, you don't like the Green New Deal, of course, you don't like Medicare for all. That makes sense. But they are talking about those issues which some Democratic voters do want.

SINGLETON: All I've heard over the past month now is how horrible Trump is and he's a racist.

SWERDLICK: If anything -- I know this is a little off-topic, S.E., but if anything, I think the Democrats' mistake is that they're not running more on Obama's record. Obama has an easy record to run on for anybody, especially the moderates. Unemployment went down, the stock market went up, Osama Bin Laden is in the ocean. That's an easy thing to --

SINGLETON: Obama is too much of a centrist for today's Democrats.

[18:30:00]

That was very clear, S.E.

CUPP: I do think he would get elected in today's Democratic primary. SINGLETON: I don't think so either. And that's very clear in the last Democratic debate.

SWERDLICK: He's a generationally talented retail politician, so I do think he could.

CUPP: Yes.

SWERDLICK: But no, his lane of centrism is represented more by someone like Congressman Delaney than, say, Senator Warren, but --

SINGLETON: That may be clear, but it was very clear that folks like Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, Castro all attacked Obama's records on various things. They made it clear that's not the (inaudible) ...

CUPP: But Shermichael, I just wonder and then we got to go but I just wonder as much as you were suggesting, Republicans and maybe even some moderates are turned off by all the talk of Trump as racist. I wonder if you underestimate just how much people are turned off by Trump attacking immigrants and minority members of Congress.

SINGLETON: Yes.

CUPP: Is that maybe more impactful than you or I might even know to be able quantify the whole?

SINGLETON: I certainly give credence to that idea, S.E., but again beyond constantly saying how horrible something is, how are you going to improve it? What are you going to do if elected to make it better? And I'm not hearing a lot of cogent arguments articulating that.

CUPP: Well, this will not be the last conversation we have about this, unfortunately.

SINGLETON: That's for sure.

CUPP: We'll have to continue this another time. David Swerdlick, Shermichael Singleton, thanks so much for joining me.

SINGLETON: Thanks, S.E.

SWERDLICK: Thanks, S.E.

CUPP: So white supremacy is just a hoax? I wonder what a former white supremacist would say about that. I'll ask one. More on the United States of hate, coming up.

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[18:35:17] CUPP: In THE RED FILE tonight, hate in America. Officials say it was a white supremacist that gunned down 22 people and injured more than two dozen others in El Paso, Texas and explicitly because he says he hated Mexicans. It's hardly an isolated incident.

Anecdotally, we can all remember recent violent attacks on a black church in Charleston, a car attack in Charlottesville, the Tree of Life synagogue shooting, the rise in white supremacy is real. There are more racist hate groups in the United States than ever before. The FBI says it's already made as many domestic terrorism arrests in 2019 as it did in all of 2018 and that a majority are motivated by white supremacist violence. But to some the growing threat of white supremacy is just a hoax.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TUCKER CARLSON, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: The whole thing is lie. If you were to assemble a list, a hierarchy of concerns or problems this country faces, where would white supremacy be on the list. Right up there with Russia, probably. It's actually not a real problem in America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: This is, and I'm being generous, disingenuous. Just because white supremacy isn't the leading cause of death or our grievous threat doesn't mean it isn't real. It's frighteningly real and it's terrifying entire communities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAVIER GUZMAN, ORGANIZER, MAKE THE ROAD NEW YORK: We've seen a lot of fear in the community because of that, because it's real now. It's not like we can't connect those dots and people know that they're in danger, just because of the color of their skin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Of course, the leader of the country in which this is all happening has had multiple opportunities to definitively disavow and condemn the scourge of white supremacy and nationalism. Here's how he has responded first as a candidate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Will you unequivocably condemn David Duke and say that you don't want his vote or that of other white supremacist in this election?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, just so you understand, I don't know anything about David Duke, okay? I don't know anything about what you're even talking about with white supremacy or white supremacists, so I don't know. I mean, I don't know did he endorsed me or what's going on, because I know nothing about David Duke. I know nothing about white supremacist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Then, as president came this remark after violent clashes between a Neo-Nazi rally and counter protesters in Charlottesville, Virginia, where a woman was killed two years ago this weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Neo-Nazi started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest (inaudible) ...

TRUMP: Excuse me. They didn't put themselves down as Neo - and had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: And then on Wednesday, Trump said this on his way to visit with the communities of Dayton and El Paso.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I am concerned about the rise of any group of hate. I don't like it. Any group of hate, I am - whether it's white supremacy, whether it's any other kind of supremacy ...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Let's be clear, you have to work real hard to avoid unequivocably denouncing David Duke, Neo-Nazis and white supremacy. It's so much easier to just say of course, I don't support them and I don't want them supporting me. He did not, he has not, he will not.

With me now to discuss, our founder of the Free Radicals Project, a group that works to reform white supremacist, Christian Picciolini and Anti-Racism Writer and Educator, Tim Wise.

Christian, I start with you. Is white supremacy a hoax?

CHRISTIAN PICCIOLINI, FORMER NEO-NAZI SKINHEAD: Sadly, S.E., white supremacy is not a hoax. Neither as white supremacist violence. We've had a string of years over a decade where we've seen violent act after violent acts starting with a Sikh temple shooting, all the way until the most recent events, that have even spurred copycat acts or trying to outdo each other.

Sadly, we're not living in a post racial society. We are living in a nation that is actually full of racism and white supremacy.

CUPP: And you say that as someone who lived it.

PICCIOLINI: Yes.

CUPP: You were part of this movement and you say, actually, the worst is yet to come. What do you mean?

PICCIOLINI: Yes, I was involved for eight years in my youth and the things that I'm hearing come out of the President's mouth and out of the administration in terms of policy are identical to things that I would have been very happy about when I was a part of that movement. Everything from an immigration ban, to a Muslim ban, to building wall to the way we talk about other countries as whole countries.

Those are all things that I can pull out of the lyrics that I wrote 30 years ago today. So to believe that people aren't acting on those things, I used to say those things in order for people to act on them. Those things are causing people to die and there has to be responsibility for that.

[18:40:09] CUPP: Tim, how does today stack up against past arrows in this country when arguably racial tensions were even greater, put the day in context.

TIM WISE, ANTI-RACISM WRITER/ACTIVIST: Well, a couple of things. I mean, number one, the denial of a large segment of white America that the problem is a problem is something that we've seen in every generation. You can actually go back to the pre civil rights years, 1962-63, before the civil rights laws were even on the books. And two thirds to three quarters of white Americans then actually told Gallup pollsters that black people were treated fully equally in employment, in housing, in education.

So white denial about the problem goes all the way back to enslavement. Most slave owners would have told you, "Oh, we treat our slaves well. There's not a problem." So white supremacy and the denial of its impact is as American as apple pie.

I would also say the second thing that's similar and Carol Anderson who's a brilliant scholar down at Emory University in Atlanta wrote a book a couple years ago called White Rage. And what she talks about is in every era where there has been progress made by people of color, either real progress or even just strong symbolic progress, there has been this backlash, this white rage. It happened after the fall of enslavement and after reconstruction, after the black migration to the north in search of jobs, after the end of segregation, the beginning of affirmative action, and now the end of the Obama era.

So part of this, sadly, is the growing pains of becoming a pluralistic multicultural democracy. Some of it is inevitable as a result of moving in that direction. The question is how do we respond to this moment and that's where I feel the administration is failing.

CUPP: Well, and Christian, who do you think are the most vulnerable to extremism? And I'm going to use the President's favorite word here. How does this kind of extremism infest the mind of white Americans?

PICCIOLINI: I think we're all susceptible to this. I think every person on earth is susceptible to radicalization if the circumstances align correctly. I say that we hit what I call potholes in the road of our life's journey and those things can be trauma, abuse, poverty, neglect, even privilege that keeps us in a bubble.

If those potholes stay unfilled, if they're voids, they can detour us to the fringes where there's somebody waiting with a narrative for us to blame somebody else for our pain. We're dealing with a lot of pain right now in America. America has its own potholes.

CUPP: Well, as you know, Christian, it's not illegal to hate another race. It's not illegal to be racist, so how do we combat the ideology? What do we do?

PICCIOLINI: Oh, that's a complicated question. But I think certainly some of the things that we can do is acknowledge that we are failing young people, that everything from early childhood mental health care, to education, to lack of opportunity, to not having their passion fulfilled, and not having adults not support them, I think we underestimate young people and frankly, I think we should give them a little bit more voice today.

CUPP: And catch them early. Tim, I hear this argument a lot that one reason Trump got elected was because a lot of white American voters were sick of being called racist, because they were worried about their jobs or because they wanted strong borders. And some argue that there's a vilifying of white America that's also contributing to the racial tension and division. Is there some truth to that?

WISE: Well, no, I don't think so. I mean the reality is if you're afraid of being called racist, don't go be racist. That's not exactly the way to thumb your nose with the people who are mocking you. If you really believe that, then the thing to do is to join in the fight for this thing called multicultural democracy.

I'm sure that people don't like being called racist. I'm sure black folks don't like being called a pathological underclass, but they're called that by a lot of the same people who voted for Donald Trump. People who, for instance, didn't care a lot about the drug problem in black and brown communities and locking people in those places up, but now want sympathy because of the opioid crisis.

Well, I'm ready to give them sympathy, because you know what, that crisis is real, and we have pharmaceuticals that flooded a lot of those white communities with those drugs. But if you want sympathy, you have to give sympathy. It has to be a two way street and the irony is that those same white folks who ignored the pain in black and brown communities are now reaping the whirlwind of that denial.

They would have been far better off to listen to what people of color were saying and join with them to create a new future for the country and for everyone in it.

CUPP: Tim Wise, Christian Picciolini, thank you both for coming on to have a really important conversation. I appreciate it. By now you know the headline, convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein, took his own life this morning. But the story isn't over, not even close. Stay with me.

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[18:48:46] CUPP: Jeffrey Epstein is dead. The businessman and accused sex trafficker was found unresponsive in his jail cell and died at an area hospital. Authorities believe Epstein hanged himself. No foul plays suspected in his death and the FBI is now investigating presumably how in the hell this happened to a high risk, high profile inmate who had just weeks ago reportedly attempted suicide.

He had been jailed since early July when he pleaded not guilty to charges accusing him of sex trafficking dozens of girls. This comes less than 24 hours after court documents were unsealed that described in detail allegations against Epstein and several associates. Epstein's lawyer released a personal statement saying in part, "I call

for a full investigation into the circumstances surrounding Mr. Epstein's death. The public needs to know exactly what happened and why, and how his custodians could have let it occur." No kidding.

With me now, former New York City Homicide Prosecutor CNN Legal Analyst Paul Callan. Obviously, this is shocking news, Paul, not just for the victims of his alleged crimes, who I'm sure were hoping to see him go to trial, but also it's just very hard to imagine how this could have happened. What are your thoughts?

[18:50:00] PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's absolutely stunning really, because first of all this is a federal facility. We kind of have this picture of federal facilities as being very well run and very humane. And in fact, of course, MCC, the closest thing it can be compared to as a Gulag or Guantanamo Bay. It's really a dingy, horrible place.

CUPP: Yes.

CALLAN: But nonetheless, when you have a well known person like Jeffrey Epstein who has tried to commit suicide, you would think he would be under careful watch. And when he winds up dead, it looks very suspicious to me. It just doesn't read right.

CUPP: The timing too. I mean just yesterday, a document drops naming many other high profile people connected to Epstein. But those people aren't out of the woods. I mean they are still going to be under investigation spotlight, right?

CALLAN: Absolutely. They're not out of the woods because even though the criminal case will now be dropped against him, because he's dead, obviously, there will be civil cases that will go forward in which those names will come out and there's also the possibility of criminal charges being brought against his co conspirators. So his death will not stop that.

And I think the fascinating thing to me and that's why I was focused on the same thing that you were with that document that just came out a couple of days ago, that name some interesting people. Bill Richardson, former Governor of New Mexico, former Maine Senator was named, George Mitchell. Of course, President Clinton and President Trump, both guests on the plane.

And he knows a lot of people in a lot of high places and all of a sudden he winds up dead in MCC. It's very suspicious.

CUPP: All right. Paul Callan, stay right there because there's more. I have more questions when we come back.

CALLAN: OK.

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[18:55:10] CUPP: OK. I'm back with Paul Callan, discussing the shocking news that accused child sex trafficker or Jeffrey Epstein is dead by suicide. You've been to MCC to visit clients before.

CALLAN: Yes.

CUPP: Someone like Jeffrey Epstein, would he have had contact with other inmates? Would he have been under observation 24/7? What would he be sort of living in?

CALLAN: Well, usually someone like Epstein would be in solitary confinement. And El Chapo was confined that way because of a great danger that he might be hurt or killed by a fellow inmate. And they're held in very, very tiny cells. The lights are usually on all day in those cells and they're kind of terrible conditions.

But he would then be moved when he tried to commit suicide approximately two weeks ago or thought to have tried to commit suicide, to a different situation where he would be monitored very closely whether it would be an attempt to make sure that he couldn't get a hold of sheets or other things that could be used to help hang yourself.

CUPP: Right.

CALLAN: And what's astonishing here is he manages to hang himself while under - well, he had just been released from the suicide watch, but he should have been under intense scrutiny. And conspiracy theorists are going to say, "You know something? He's a guy who could have made a case against a lot of higher ups and all of a sudden he winds up dead." There are a lot of questions that have to be answered here.

CUPP: All right. That's it for me. Thanks, Paul.

CALLAN: OK. Thank you.

CUPP: One quick programming note before I go, our original series "THE MOVIES" continue Sunday night with the '60s. "THE MOVIES" is tomorrow night at 9:00 on CNN. Ana Cabrera has the latest headlines next on "CNN NEWSROOM."