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New Questions And Disturbing Revelations About The Apparent Suicide Of Accused Sex Trafficker And Convicted Sex Offender Jeffrey Epstein; At Least Eight Threats At Walmarts Nationwide Since Last Weekend's Tragedies; Democrats Jump On President Trump's Tweet Overnight; Almost All The 2020 Candidates Have Descended On Des Moines; Two Olympic Hopefuls At The Pan American Games, One Fencer Taking A Knee. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired August 11, 2019 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:18] FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. And thank you so much for joining me. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

Right now new questions and disturbing revelations about the apparent suicide of accused sex trafficker and convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. A source now telling CNN that the 66-year-old was supposed to be checked on by guards every 30 minutes since he was taken off suicide watch late July and that did not happen on the night of his death. Epstein was also supposed to be housed with a cellmate and not left alone, but he was left alone.

"The New York Times" is also reporting the jail had actually transferred his cellmate after Epstein was taken off suicide watch, violating protocol. Epstein had been awaiting trial on charges of sex trafficking. Dozens of underage girls, some as young as 14. One of whom claimed in a deposition that Epstein arranged for her to have sex with powerful wealthy and prominent men around the world.

Epstein's death now prompting fury and investigations by both the FBI and the U.S. justice department. U.S. attorney general Bill Barr says there are serious questions that must be answered.

I want to bring in now Percy Pitzer. He is a former federal prison warden and executive vice president of Creative Corrections, which works with federal agencies on correctional and law enforcement issues.

Percy, good to see you. So given these new details that are being reported, Epstein was not monitored the night of this apparent suicide. He was not checked by guards every 30 minutes and did not have a cellmate. So what are your questions right now about these failures?

PERCY PITZER, FORMER FEDERAL WARDEN: Well, first of all, I believe that the suicide could have been prevented. I mean two weeks ago he attempted suicide. At least he had self-inflicted marks on his neck and was in fact put on suicide watch. When he was taken off suicide watch he was put into a segregation cell. It appears that it was by himself. I mean this is a guy that's a high-profile case. He Is a sex offender and his world is ending as he knows it. So as far as he's concerned, what does he have to lose? Now, as far as if what you're saying is true, I believe it's total negligence on the part of the facility. You know, one of the issues -- go ahead, I'm sorry.

WHITFIELD: Well, I was going to say then knowing, underscoring what you just said in terms of the knowledge of a very prominent figure and that you just said having nothing to lose, then what does this tell you about the facility and how all of these failures could have happened or apparently did happen given the nature of this inmate and the legal road ahead? What does this tell you about these lapses, whether in judgment, procedure. I mean what would be behind that? One mistake, OK. But a multitude of mistakes?

PITZER: Well, there's bigger issues. For instance, the agency leadership. You know, three out of the last four years they have had acting director. They need permanent leadership so that the staff knows where they are going and that you are going to be there for a while. Now, you can't talk to any staff without them talking about staff shortage. Now that is a recipe for incidents in itself. And I would venture to say that New York probably has staff shortage. Now, as far as -- go ahead.

WHITFIELD: Would that be explanation enough for not following what is established protocol when you have an attempted suicide and the procedure is there would be 30-minute watches by a guard, at the very least a cell mate, that this cellmate was moved, explanation still unknown on that, why would not a replacement be immediately instituted?

PITZER: Well, there's only one answer to that and that's negligence on the part of management. I mean I don't know what else you could say. I mean, I have a lot of respect for the bureau of prisons. I spent 25 years there. Actually I'm a former employee of MCC New York many years ago.

WHITFIELD: So then you know how things are supposed to generally run there at the Metropolitan Correctional Center there in Manhattan. Is it as simple as you put it, that it would be negligence? Do you entertain that there is anything else to this opportunity that Epstein took to commit suicide? Do you think it is as simple as that, negligence?

[14:05:08] PITZER: Yes, I believe. I know there's some conspiracy theories out there, but I don't buy that. The fact that, you know, he attempted it two weeks ago and wasn't successful, but was found semi- conscious. If that was an inmate doing that, they would have finished the job.

WHITFIELD: So then given that you have had experience working there, when an inmate attempts suicide, talk to me about this, you know, heightened awareness amongst those who work there, the diligence to make sure that that person is unable to try that again. Tell me what usually would happen.

PITZER: Well, they would put the person in a cell with nothing in it. He would be wearing a paper gown, he would be having a blanket made of lightweight material so he could not use is to hang himself. Then he would have constant 24-hour minute-to-minute observation on him. So if he did try something, they would be able to respond immediately.

WHITFIELD: And then tell me about the mindset of any of the staff that works there, knowing that an inmate may have appear tempted suicide, knowing that this is a prominent figure and that this case is rising to even greater prominence. Does the mindset of the people working at mcc change any? Are they much more diligent about, you know, following protocol or taking every step and measure in which to protect the inmate so that the road to prosecution happens?

PITZER: You know, normally, yes. But I mean it's the responsibility of the leadership inside the facility to make sure that happens. I mean the staff, the correctional officer, is going to see it as important as the leadership emphasized.

WHITFIELD: Percy Pitzer, we really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

PITZER: Thank you for having for me.

WHITFIELD: Let's go to New York. Polo Sandoval is joining us. So what more are we learning about steps taken, steps not taken, and the consequences?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's get to that reporting first, Fred, coming from my colleague, Mark Morales, showing Epstein was found by himself in that cell early yesterday morning. That certainly could potentially presenting an issue, especially when you hear more of this reporting suggesting those individuals who are in the special housing unit at the Metropolitan Correctional Center here in Manhattan have to be checked on every 30 minutes. Those guards have to literally make their rounds. And now this new reporting suggesting that did not likely happen.

And of course, the second also most disturbing issue that we are getting or bit of reporting is that Epstein was allowed to be by himself in the cell to begin with. Typically for these inmates who are considered a risk to themselves, they are not allowed to be by themselves immediately after they are taken off suicide watch. We do understand, according to this latest reporting, that he did have a cellmate. However, the cellmate was not there at the time.

And then finally, another fact that certainly will be considered not just by the FBI but the inspector general are the actual two guards that were working in the SHU presumably Friday into Saturday. We understand that both of them were on overtime. One of them, his overtime shift was already quite extended. And so that certainly will be something else that authorities will be looking at.

So again, those three pieces of reporting now that are CNN can confirm certainly something that investigators will be looking at as they try to find out exactly how Epstein was able to take his own life. It is certainly something that has caused a lot of shock and really a lot of anger among his alleged victims who feel like that they were rocked of their day in court, robbed of justice. WHITFIELD: Thank you so much, Polo Sandoval.

SANDOVAL: Thanks, Fred.

WHITFIELD: Still ahead, President Trump spreading completely unfounded conspiracy theories surrounding Jeffrey Epstein's death. But first, signs of fear across the United States as police in several cities receive reports of an armed man at a local Walmart store. That kind of report multiple times, one week after two mass shootings rocked Dayton, Ohio, and El Paso, Texas.

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[14:12:14] WHITFIELD: Welcome back. Right now many Americans across the country remain on edge a week after 31 people were killed in mass shootings, including 22 who were murdered in an El Paso, Texas, Walmart.

Overnight police reported threats at two more Walmarts, one in New York and another in North Carolina. They are two of at least eight threats rather at Walmarts nationwide since last weekend's tragedies. And while the recent threats did not involve an actual shooter situation, they do serve as evidence that fear levels are very high.

CNN national correspondent Natasha Chen is outside the scene of that mass shooting in El Paso one week ago.

So Natasha, you have got a lot of people behind you. A memorial it looks like has been set up behind you as well. But overall, how are people feeling?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the community is still with a lot of tension and a lot of fear, just like you're talking about with these other threats as you mentioned. The two scares yesterday in New York and North Carolina. Police there said there was no actual shooter.

But I do want to point out there have been more serious situations. For example, in Winter Park, Florida, in the Orlando area, police there did arrest someone. 26-year-old Richard Clayton. I believe we have his photo. Clayton allegedly posted on Facebook on August 6th saying three more days of probation left, then I get my AR-15 back. Don't go to Walmart next week. Now police there say that Clayton believes apparently in white supremacist ideology and has a history of posting threats. Then we have Harlingen, Texas, where police arrested a man for making threats there.

So while people around the country are fearful, on edge perhaps reporting threats that they see to police when there is no shooter, we do have other places where police have identified individuals who have been making threats to stores.

And in response to this Walmart has released a statement. They say we are continually focused on safety and security in our stores. We take threats seriously and provide additional security as appropriate. We will continue to help federal and local authorities with their investigation to determine the source and any credibility of the threats -- Fredricka.

[14:15:36] WHITFIELD: So, Natasha, you know, have people been sharing with you how they are coping, how what happened a week ago has changed their day-to-day movement, concerns, all of that?

CHEN: Yes. You know, I talked to some people, especially those who have come by here. We have seen a steady flow of people since we have been here. There are constantly people at this memorial that's just growing. And of course, since last week there has been that taller green fence put around the Walmart parking lot where authorities still need to work. We do sense fear, but we also sense resilience from this community. They really want to gather and be together right now as evidenced by yesterday's march through downtown. And also from a couple of college students I talk to who said that next weekend they are going to hold another rally and they want to register voters. That's their way of taking some action. Here's what they had to say about that.

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MIRANDA VEGA, EL PASO RESIDENT: Our mission, our miss is not to completely eradicate all guns or anything. We just want people to be safe. I believe that with the gun laws we have right now in the state, we are protecting the guns rather than the people and it should be vice versa.

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CHEN: So you see young people seeing that there is a problem here, that they want to see change. And they tell me that is hair way of doing something in response to the situation instead of feeling helpless in their hometown, Fred.

WHITFIELD: All right. Natasha Chen in El Paso, Texas, thank you so much.

So as fears of gun violence grow in the U.S., people in Norway are dealing with the aftermath of a mosque shooting which could have been much worse if not for one man's heroic actions. Authorities say a Norwegian man in his 20s accused of opening fire at a mosque in Oslo Saturday had expressed right-wing sympathies online. And according to police, this were just three people inside the mosque at the time shots were fired, but a 65-year-old man jumped into action to save lives.

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ABDUL-SATAR ALI, COUNSEL FOR MOHAMMED RAFIQ (through translator): Muhammed acted immediately when the shooter entered the room. He toppled the shooter and pinned him to the floor, sat on top of him. After a while, a board member (INAUDIBLE) came and helped holding him down. Then police arrived and arrested the man. That is all I can say now due to the investigation.

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WHITFIELD: The suspected shooter has been charged with murder after his 17-year-old step-sister was found dead inside his home.

All right. Still ahead, Democrats jump on President Trump's tweet overnight sharing an unfounded conspiracy claim about Jeffrey Epstein's death.

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[14:21:54] WHITFIELD: In the aftermath of a pair of mass shootings that has stunned the nation, today President Trump chose to use his massive twitter platform not to unify or help heal the country. Instead, he decided to spread a completely unfounded conspiracy theory tying the death of accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein to Trump's former political rivals, the Clintons.

The retweet said in part Jeffrey Epstein had information on bill Clinton and now he is dead. The spokesman for the former president, Bill Clinton, responded to the president's retweet saying, ridiculous. And of course not true and Donald Trump knows it. Has he triggered the 25th amendment yet?

President Trump tweets also choosing to ignore his long connection to Epstein seen in these of pictures. The two socialized together back in the 1990s.

2020 Democratic presidential candidates were quick to condemn the president's latest inflammatory moment, including Beto O'Rourke.

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BETO O'ROURKE (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is another example of our president using this position of public trust to attack his political enemies with unfounded conspiracy theories and also to try to force you and me and all of us to focus on his bizarre behavior instead of the fact that we just lost 22 people in this community, 9 people in Dayton, Ohio.

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WHITFIELD: All right. Let's talk about all of this. Joining me right now is Jeff Mason, a White House correspondent for "Reuters," and Elana Plot, who is a White House correspondent for the "Atlantic." Also both CNN political analysts.

So Jeff, you first, you know. So is his tweet, you know, just the President's bizarre way of getting people to look the other way? I mean, what would be his motivation? What's behind him doing something like this?

JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: Well, it's a tough question to answer, Fred, to figure out the strategy if there is one behind President Trump's tweeting sometimes. I think in this case it's just another example of the president engaging in and spreading conspiracy theories. In particular this one that would cast some kind of a shadow over his former what he still sometimes seems to believe are his current political opponents. This is part of a trend that we have seen with president Trump since

long before he was in the White House. As you obviously know, the president was one of the main proponents of the false idea that president Barack Obama was not born in the United States, which he was, of course. He was born in Hawaii. That birtherism conspiracy theory was one sort of wave that president Trump, then citizen Trump, rode on his way to the White House.

WHITFIELD: So White House advisor, President's advisor, Kellyanne Conway, defended the President's retweet. This is what she had to say about the President spreading this baseless conspiracy theory.

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KELLYANNE CONWAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSELOR: I think the president just wants everything to be investigated, as your reporter just revealed just the day before. There are some unsealed information implicating some people very high up. And I'm not going to repeat their names. Jeffrey Epstein has done some very bad things over a number of years. And so let's continue to investigate that.

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[14:25:18] WHITFIELD: OK. So Elana, you know, the retweet actually made no mention of further investigating Epstein's death, instead pointing the finger at, you know, the President's political foes. So, you know, is what Kellyanne just said White House spin, you know? Or is this at the bottom of it the president's way of using yet another tragedy, you know, for political advantage?

ELENA PLOT, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, THE ATLANTIC: I think Jeff really hit the nail on the head, Fred, when he said this is another way of Trump latching on to a political opponent that he really enjoyed sparring with in 2016 and that since then he felt he has lacked. You know, I have attended three rallies in the last year and each time "lock her up" chants you know, still ring loudly across the arenas.

This is somebody who cannot let go of grievances that he feels were incurred on the 2016 trail. And it is not at all surprising to me or other reporters that of course the minute anything where Clinton's name can be applied to any tangential situation he is going to latch on to that. I don't think there's a strategy beyond how much he enjoys invoking her name.

WHITFIELD: So conspiracies are one thing and then there are some real legitimate questions, you know, surrounding Epstein's death. And it has caught the attention of many people in the political stage.

This is what Claire McCaskill, the former democratic senator from Missouri tweeted, saying something stinks to high heaven. How does someone on suicide watch hang himself with no intervention? Impossible. Unless --.

So, Jeff, she shares a sentiment of many but she is willing to, you know, tweet about that. What does this mean for political figures to get involved with questioning the circumstances surrounding Epstein's death? We heard from the A.G., Barr, who said, you know, he wants to get to the bottom of investigating investigators.

MASON: Well, number one, I think former senator McCaskill is wrong in saying that he was on suicide watch. All of the reporting that I have seen is that he had been taken off suicide watch.

WHITFIELD: True, it was following suicide watch.

MASON: Right. And investigators are no doubt looking into that. But, you know, having lawmakers, former lawmakers, people in the public square weigh in on this is just their way of saying, look, this is something we need to look into and that's what she's doing. That's what others are doing. No doubt this has been a particularly big story because of Epstein's connection to many public officials, politicians including Donald Trump, including the Clintons, but it is, you know, people are going to ask what led to this and that's what in this case she's doing and others have done.

WHITFIELD: So Elana, how much other political figures do you think have a willingness to adding to the roster of questions about Epstein's death? Particularly because the charges of sex trafficking did involve a list of prominent figures in politics, in entertainment, not just the United States but around the world.

PLOT: I think a couple of things are at play here. One, of course, is the anomalous nature of this, it is as you just pointed out so extreme. But another which is less obvious is that I do think to have the president of the United States be so willing to use his own platform to push conspiracy theories, make unfounded assertions, even, you know, it's going to trickle down into other levels of government, by which I mean it would hardly be surprising if you see other senators and representatives, you know, using their own twitter platforms in the same way. When you have the leader of the free world showing he is willing to do that, even those in another party, they might say they are against it, they might be willing to do the same thing.

WHITFIELD: Right. I mean, Jeff, usually a lot of conspiracy theories may not necessarily, you know, get a lot of ink, but when you have the president of the United States, you know, driving it, that makes the difference, doesn't it?

MASON: Absolutely. It's about the use of a platform. Presidents for decades have made use of the bully pulpit to get across their views, to get across their agenda. This president has not only done that, but also repeatedly done -- passed on conspiracy theories like this.

WHITFIELD: Like the birtherism.

MASON: Yes, like birtherism. He will put his hands up and say it wasn't my theory. I just retweeted it. Well, retweeting it versus creating it in this case doesn't make any difference. It's passing on information and getting resonance with the people who follow him on twitter.

[14:30:08] WHITFIELD: All right. Amplifying it, right?

MASON: Yes.

WHITFIELD: Jeff Mason, Elana Plot, thank you so much. Appreciate you both.

Meanwhile, in Iowa right at this hour, 2020 Democratic candidates are still giving their pitches at the Iowa state fair and it's been quite the blockbuster of a weekend of campaigning in the early caucus state as almost all the 2020 candidates have descended on Des Moines.

CNN's Rebecca Buck is in that state right now at the fairgrounds.

So what's going on?

REBECCA BUCK, CNN POLITICAL REPORTER: Hi, Fred. Well, it's been a hive of activity of course here at the Iowa state fairgrounds. One candidate though who is not here holding a very big presence over this event, Beto O'Rourke, at home in El Paso after the tragic shooting there. He appeared this morning on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" to talk with our Jake Tapper and he expressed his support for the first time for national gun licenses, representing a major shift from his previous concerns about those licenses.

Yesterday here at the state fair I spoke with senator Cory Booker, who was one of the first candidates to propose this idea, and he said he is happy, glad that other candidates are coming along to his ideas. Take a listen to what he had to say.

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SEN. CORY BOOKER (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I challenge this field. I'm glad many are moving to what I proposed. Things like if you need a license to buy a car, you should have a license to buy and possess a gun. It is nice to see that people are moving. And I think we are going to continue to come down as a party to say these common sense things that the evidence has shown will make us safer and are the right thing to do.

BUCK: Of course we have been here before after shootings at Sandy Hook, at Parkland, in Las Vegas and Charleston, South Carolina. And so we asked Booker why is this time different? What can candidates do to keep pushing for change? And he likens this to a modern-day freedom struggle, like the civil rights movement, and said he intends to do his part to keep putting this issue in the spotlight.

In the meantime, he is not the only one. Other candidates here in Iowa this week have been pushing this issue as well, keeping gun reform in the spotlight. Yesterday here at the Iowa state fair Amy Klobuchar and Kamala Harris became the latest candidates to tell Walmart that they should stop selling guns in their stores.

Meantime, Kamala Harris in her so-FOX (ph) touted the executive action she would take if elected as president. The NRA responding saying that that is ridiculous -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Rebecca Buck, thank you so much. We will check back with you.

All right. Coming up next, a massive manhunt comes to an end in Tennessee. All after a homeowner's startling ring doorbell video is handed over to officials.

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[14:36:26] WHITFIELD: All right. Welcome back. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

After five days of searching, escaped Tennessee inmate Curtis Ray Watson is now in custody. Tennessee state bureau of investigations tweeting this photo with the caption "captured." Watson was taken into custody at approximately 11:00 a.m. It was after officials received a credible tip overnight from a homeowner in the Henning, Tennessee area. Watson was caught on their ring doorbell video camera taking food and supplies from an outdoor refrigerator. And it's not far from the penitentiary, this house that is. Watson is expected -- is a suspect rather in the death of a 64-year-old corrections worker who was found dead at her home earlier this week. The reward for his capture and conviction of Watson had reached $57,000.

When Jeffrey Epstein died in his prison cell this week, all of his secrets went with him. The civil case against him will continue, but the criminal prosecution is now over. And for many of the accusers, it means they won't get their day in court or have an opportunity to see him eye to eye.

CNN's Vicky Ward is with me and she has been covering the Epstein case for years now.

So, Vicky, where does this leave the accusers at this point?

VICKY WARD, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Well, Fredricka, I think you had Geoffrey Berman, the U.S. attorney, say very clearly yesterday that, you know, this was a conspiracy. Jeffrey Epstein didn't do what he did without the help of other people. And I think that you are going to see the victims really, you know --

WHITFIELD: Pursuing these co-conspirators.

WARD: Go for the enablers. You know, the name Ghillen Maxwell is coming up a lot in conversations I'm having.

WHITFIELD: And describe her. I mean, she was a former girlfriend and then allegedly she was someone who helped, I guess, retrieve, match some of these young ladies with Epstein?

WARD: Right. And you know, so --

WHITFIELD: Or recruit, maybe that's a better word.

WARD: Two victims who have now come forward On the Record, sisters, Maria Farmer and her younger sister, Annie Farmer, who appeared at Jeffrey Epstein's bail hearing and very movingly told the judge that she thought he should not get bail because it would stop other victims from coming forward.

So those two sisters and their mother spoke to me when I first started reporting on Jeffrey Epstein back in 2002. And really interestingly, they were sort of more afraid in some ways of Ghillen Maxwell. Their mother, Janice Farmer, blamed Maxwell for what happened to her daughters almost more than Jeffrey Epstein because she would never have consented to let her teenage daughter go and spend a weekend with this man unchaperoned, but Ghillen Maxwell is this very aristocratic British woman. I have known her personally for at least 20 years. She came -- she was the daughter of a very well-known financier newspaper owner, Robert Maxwell, in England. She assured Mrs. Farmer that her daughters would be safe. That she would be there.

And so I think, you know, the question that a lot of people have had in the last couple of weeks, ever since Jeffrey Epstein's arrest is where is Ghillen Maxwell? She reached out to me actually in April just wanting to catch up.

[14:40:21] WHITFIELD: And what does she say still -- did she say anything at the time about her relations, you know, or her care or lack thereof of Epstein, you know, his fate, anything like that?

WARD: She didn't say anything. But I am on a witness list apparently in the case against her for the other side. So I was -- it was curious to hear from her, I must say.

WHITFIELD: So, Vicky, you have, you know, had interaction with so many in the circle of Epstein. So now of these accusers, I mean the range of emotions from anguish to anger about his jail cell death, how would you describe how many of them are feeling at this juncture and how much confidence they have that they would actually, you know, gain anything financially from his estate, which is sizeable, as a result of any kind of civil suits, some of which are going to be filed this week?

WARD: Yes. So I think that obviously there's outrage, right? Outrage that they don't get their day in court and so many questions as to why, what happened to Jeffrey Epstein happened, and again so many questions about his estate. You know --

WHITFIELD: And he has prize estates and property in Manhattan, in palm beach, Florida, in a Caribbean island, I mean, just to name a few.

WARD: Right. But nobody is -- we know what the southern district has on record, but there are still questions as to is that the whole estate, you know? I mean, one of the things about Jeffrey Epstein is the great mystery about his finances, right? And then in cases like this, will the government move to seize it? You know, these are questions they could. So I think that, you know, the victims right now are feeling outraged and uncertain.

WHITFIELD: Vicky Ward, thank you so much.

WARD: Thank you. WHITFIELD: Still ahead, so what happens to Jeffrey Epstein's

multimillion dollar estate and could his accusers actually be entitled to any of it?

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[14:46:42] WHITFIELD: All right. Some big questions in the wake of the Jeffrey Epstein death, including what happens to the multimillionaire financier estate and could his accusers see any of the money? Recent court documents reveal Epstein had more than $559 million in assets including a $55 mansion in Manhattan.

Let's bring in Stefan Casella, the former deputy chief for asset forfeiture and money laundering at the U.S. department of justice. Good to see you.

STEFAN CASELLA, THE FORMER DEPUTY CHIEF, ASSET FORFEITURE AND MONEY LAUNDERING AT THE U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: Thanks.

WHITFIELD: So at this point how is Epstein's net worth being assessed and who is actually assessing it?

CASELLA: Well, what his net worth might be is of interest, of course, to any of the victims who have retained counsel and are going to try to recover against him for damages as a result of whatever injuries they can establish.

The government, however, has another method of going after his assets. And that method would be asset forfeiture directed at the property connected to his particular crimes. The government could not go after his entire estate but it can go after any property that was involved in or derived in these offenses. If it recovers that property, then it can distribute it to the victims.

WHITFIELD: Oh, that's interesting. So right now the jurisdiction over Epstein's estate, who has that before government would step in then?

CASELLA: Well, the government can go after any asset that's in the United States. You have his mansion on the upper east side that was alleged in the indictment to be subject to criminal forfeiture. You have the property in palm beach. There's been allegations that he has property in the Caribbean, that he has property in Mexico. I don't know if he does or not, but if he does and if it was involved in the crime, the government could recover that. If he has any, you know, boats, jets, helicopters, anything else that he used to commit the crime, that could be recovered as well.

WHITFIELD: And that is especially after his death because the government wouldn't necessarily be involved in that kind of seizure when he was alive, you know, facing pending trial.

CASELLA: Well, the government has two ways of recovering property in a criminal case. If the defendant is prosecuted and convicted, then it can take the property, his mansions, his airplanes, anything else, as part of his sentence. That's called criminal forfeiture. If there's no criminal case, then the government has the alternative of what's called civil forfeiture or non-conviction-based forfeiture and it just names the properties and lists the properties in a formal judicial complaint and it says to anyone who wishes to contest this?

WHITFIELD: Got it.

CASELLA: And if someone contests this, the government establishes that it should be forfeited. And then once the government prevails, if it prevails, it can distribute that property.

WHITFIELD: OK. And so now because of his death there's no criminal case so the civil case road is what will proceed as you have stated.

CASELLA: That's what's left for the government to do.

WHITFIELD: So what is the road likely ahead in these civil lawsuits? We are told by at least one attorney that it will be filed later on this week. How long before any of those, you know, accusers would be able to see their case, you know, established on paper actually move toward the direction of any possible seizures?

CASELLA: Well, it's a slow process whether it's a series of private lawsuits or a government's forfeiture action. From my experience, I can tell you the government's forfeiture action is likely to be more efficient. The government would name the properties and in the case of vehicles or vessels or aircraft would seize them and then file its complaint. And then we would see if anyone con tests it. If no one does, the process ends very quickly. The property is liquidated and the assets distributed.

[14:50:25] WHITFIELD: He reportedly had no heirs. I mean, you know, no wife and no -- there's no belief that he had any children.

CASELLA: And even if he had heirs, they would not be able to oppose -- they could oppose if they wanted to, but they would not succeed in opposing the forfeiture of property that was actually used to commit a crime.

WHITFIELD: OK.

CASELLA: The problem with the individual lawsuits is that the victims who are able to hire counsel and proceed on their own are likely to try to recover all their losses, whereas victims who don't have the wherewithal to hire counsel are not going to be able to recover any losses. The government's objective is to distribute the property pro rata to all of the victims.

WHITFIELD: OK. We will leave it there for now.

Stefan Casella, thank you so much. Appreciate you joining.

CASELLA: You are very welcome.

WHITFIELD: Up next, new pushback to the president's language on the international stage at the podium at the Pan American games.

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[14:54:41] WHITFIELD: It's not Colin Kaepernick and it's not an NFL team member, but this time an American gold medalist at the Pan American games in Peru kneeling at his team's medal ceremony as the U.S. national anthem was being played. He was one of two players who made an overt protest during the games.

Here's CNN's Coy Wire.

[14:55:03] COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: Hi, Fred. Two Olympic hopefuls at the Pan American games, one Fencer taking a knee and a hammer thrower raising a fist, bringing awareness to social injustice in America knowing they could face discipline.

American Gwen Barry raising her fist in the podium after winning gold in the hammer throw yesterday. Much like American sprinters Tommy Smith and John Carlos at the 1968 Olympics. Fencer Race Imboden takes a knee on the podium during the anthem after winning gold as well in the team foil event on Friday.

All participants signed agreements that they wouldn't make political, religious or racial remarks during the game. Imboden won bronze at the 2016 Olympic games. He tweeted in part we must call for change. This week I am honored to represent team USA. My pride, however, has been cut short by the multiple shortcomings of the country I hold so near to my heart. Racism, gun roll, mistreatment of immigrants and a president who spreads hate are at the top of a long list. I chose to sacrifice my moment today at the top of the podium. I encourage others to please use your platforms for empowerment and change.

A U.S. Olympic and para-Olympic committee spokesman said the organization is reviewing what consequences may result.

Here's a story that is going to put a smile on your face all day. Kenya's women's Lacrosse team lost their first match in the world championships to Israel in part because they didn't have any cleats. So the Israelis did something about it. The next day they surprised the entire Kenyan team with brand new cleats. The kind gesture made a difference. The day after getting the cleats, Kenya beat Belgium 16- 9. That, Fred, is taking sportsmanship to a whole new level.

WHITFIELD: That and it's got to be the shoes, right?

Coy Wire, thank you so much.

All right, we will talk with Olympian Race Imboden next hour, he is the fencer who was kneeling. Stay with us.

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