Return to Transcripts main page


Washington Post: Whistleblower Complaint About Trump Involves Ukraine; Rudy Giuliani's Allegations Against Joe Biden; Trump Admits He's Moving "Very Slowly" On Gun Deal. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired September 19, 2019 - 21:00   ET


[21:00:00] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: --campaign. Meanwhile, the apology tour continues.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU, PRIME MINISTER OF CANADA: I've had to reflect on the fact that wanting to do good and wanting to do better simply isn't good enough.

This was a terrible mistake.

KAYE: Randi Kaye, CNN, New York.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: A lot more news ahead. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, Anderson. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME. Let's get after it.




CUOMO: All right, this whistleblower story is blowing up, and it's doing so on our watch. There is now breaking news on that urgent complaint about President Trump. It involves Ukraine. This comes from the Washington Post.

You might remember House Democrats have been examining whether the President, and his attorney, Rudy Giuliani, sought to manipulate the Ukrainian government into helping the Trump re-election campaign. They were doing that before this complaint.

Now, something that may seem confusing, as you go through the facts tonight, is that the subject phone call that we now know took place in this time frame that people are looking at, when this complaint came in, who did the President speak to, who was the Leader at that time, he spoke to the President of Ukraine. Now, that call was already the subject of curiosity by Congress because they were looking into these earlier efforts, in part, announced by Mr. Giuliani, about his intentions of trying to get to Ukraine to figure out some things about some of Mr. Trump's political opponents.

So, that's where it stands. We happen to have the man in the middle tonight.




CUOMO: The President's Counselor, former Mayor, Rudy Giuliani. Good to have you on the show.

RUDY GIULIANI, ATTORNEY TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP, FORMER MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: Oh, I'm glad I'm on tonight because what you just said is totally erroneous.

Every single thing you just said is completely spun in the same direction you've been doing for two years with these "Oh, tonight, Papadopoulos is going to prove Russian collusion." Let me tell you what happened, OK?


GIULIANI: What -- what happened is that I was investigating, going back to last year, complaints that the Ukrainian people, several people in Ukraine, knew about a tremendous amount of collusion between Ukrainian officials, and Hillary Clinton, and the Democratic National Committee, including a completely fraudulent document that was produced, in order to begin the investigation of Manafort.

They were trying to get to us. But they were being blocked by the Ambassador who was Obama-appointee, in Ukraine, who was holding back this information. In the course of investigating that, I found out this incredible story about Joe Biden that he bribed the President of the Ukraine in order to fire a prosecutor who was investigating his son.

That is an astounding scandal, of major proportions, which all of you have covered up, for about five or six months. You've also covered up the fact that Biden and his son took $1.5 billion out of China.

And that's why the President thinks you're a corrupt media, because if this would -- President Trump and Donald Trump Jr., and they took millions of dollars from a corrupt oligarch in the Ukraine, and they took $1.5 billion out of China, while the President was negotiating with China, you would be screaming, and yelling, and going crazy about how corrupt it is. And because it's Joe Biden, and he's a protected Democrat, you don't cover it.

CUOMO: All right. GIULIANI: This scandal is a scandal--


GIULIANI: --of major proportion. Now, was I--

CUOMO: Are you -- are you done now?

GIULIANI: No, I'm not done now.

CUOMO: Because you haven't said anything -- you have well--


CUOMO: But you can't just talk the whole time, Rudy.

GIULIANI: I have -- I haven't done -- I haven't -- I haven't said anything yet.

CUOMO: You can't say that everything I said was erroneous.

GIULIANI: I haven't said anything yet.

CUOMO: When I didn't say anything that's untrue yet.

GIULIANI: No, you did.

CUOMO: By your own reckoning.

GIULIANI: You said I was investigating--

CUOMO: What did I say?

GIULIANI: --it for political purposes. I was not.

CUOMO: You -- I said you -- I said--

GIULIANI: I'm a lawyer, Chris.

CUOMO: I know what you are.

GIULIANI: I'm a defense lawyer.

CUOMO: I know what you are.

GIULIANI: That's protected by the United States Constitution.

CUOMO: Which raises the question why were you investigating this? Why did you back away from the trip when it got scrutiny?

GIULIANI: Because I was told--

CUOMO: Why did you wind up meeting in Spain instead of Ukraine?

GIULIANI: --because I was told that the people at the meeting with the President were people who work for George Soros. And George Soros had been funding this whole thing from the very, very beginning. Not only that. That was corroborated--

CUOMO: That's why you backed away?

GIULIANI: Yes. Because they were going to lie about the conversation I was having with the President.

CUOMO: You have proof that Soros was funding it?

GIULIANI: I -- oh, I absolutely do. I have proof.

CUOMO: How so?

GIULIANI: OK. George Soros had a -- had a not-for-profit called Antack (ph). Antack (ph) is the one that developed all of the dirty information that ended up being a false document that was created in order to incriminate Manafort.

CUOMO: Do you have the proof of that?

GIULIANI: They also helped--

CUOMO: That that's who funded all these things?

GIULIANI: Absolutely.

CUOMO: Because, you know, the -- the--

GIULIANI: December -- Chris, Chris--

CUOMO: --the United States Attorney just found its--

GIULIANI: --December--

CUOMO: --own stuff about Manafort.

GIULIANI: --December 16th, 2018, there is a finding by a court in the Ukraine that a man named -- Telechenko (ph) -- Yushchenko (ph), something like that that he produced a phony affidavit that was given to the American authorities and an FBI agent named Greenwood, and they found him guilty of that. Nobody reports that--

CUOMO: All right, so, Rudy--

GIULIANI: --in the United States because you don't report things that are favorable to the President--

[21:05:00] CUOMO: Rudy -- well that's not true.

GIULIANI: --and negative to Democrats.

CUOMO: But -- but, Rudy, listen.

GIULIANI: Let me go further about finding--

CUOMO: Wait, hold on a second. Let's -- let's go step by step, because forget about the fact that you said what I said was erroneous one. GIULIANI: It is, Chris.

CUOMO: I haven't said -- I didn't say any of the things you're saying now.

GIULIANI: I wasn't -- I was not investigating it--

CUOMO: I don't even know if they're true.

GIULIANI: --for political--

CUOMO: But the idea--

GIULIANI: Well then why did you say I was doing it for political--


GIULIANI: --purposes?

CUOMO: I -- I didn't say political purposes. I said you were going after political--

GIULIANI: I am the President's--

CUOMO: --opponents of Mr. Trump.

GIULIANI: --I am the -- I am the President's attorney.

CUOMO: That's what Joe Biden is. That's what Hillary Clinton is.

GIULIANI: Joe Biden is presumed innocent. But somebody's got to investigate him for going to the President of the Ukraine, and telling him--

CUOMO: That's fine. You just want to make sure that--

GIULIANI: --I'm not going to give you--

CUOMO: --you're not going there under color of authority of the President.

GIULIANI: --but somebody has to investigate it. No, no, no, no.

CUOMO: But let me ask you something else.

GIULIANI: Not because of the authority of the President because when the new prosecutor, that Joe put in, came in, he not only dismissed the case on Hunter Biden, for getting about $6 million in laundered money from--

CUOMO: The prosecutor that was removed, which was the original intrigue on Joe Biden, that prosecutor was removed, first of all, by consensus of a multiple of Western countries, and it was after Hunter Biden's stuff was done.

Yes, look, you should have your hand on your face. You know why? This is all a distraction from what I asked you first--

GIULIANI: No, it isn't a distraction, Chris.

CUOMO: --about in the first place, which is--

GIULIANI: What you just said is totally wrong.

CUOMO: --is it's -- it's not what I just--

GIULIANI: It's completely wrong.

CUOMO: It -- it is totally correct.

GIULIANI: The prosecutor--

CUOMO: And in the factual timeline.

GIULIANI: Chris, you don't know what happened.

CUOMO: The prosecutor was out.

GIULIANI: I know what happened.

CUOMO: How do you know when I don't know?

GIULIANI: You are -- you are just repeating -- you're just repeating spin. The prosecutor--

CUOMO: Oh, but -- but you don't, right?

GIULIANI: --the prosecutor--

CUOMO: You're not spinning anything.


CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: I'm not spinning a damn thing.


GIULIANI: I'm telling you the truth.


GIULIANI: The prosecutor was removed because he was investigating the son, and he was investigating Soros' charity or whatever the hell it was, Antack (ph). The new prosecutor that came in dismissed both cases, and the President--

CUOMO: The prosecutor who was pushed out was unanimously seen as corrupt, by the way.

GIULIANI: No, he wasn't. He wasn't unanimously seen as corrupt.

CUOMO: All right, so--

GIULIANI: That's an after-the-fact statement. The prosecutor--

CUOMO: What do you mean after-the-fact statement?

GIULIANI: You don't look at Joe Biden--

CUOMO: Was he seen as corrupt or no?

GIULIANI: --who probably is working with half the IQ that you and I have, if you listen to Joe Biden's tape, he convicts himself. He says, I told the President of the Ukraine, if you don't dismiss this guy, you're not going to get your 1.2--

CUOMO: All right, so that's what you say--

GIULIANI: --billion dollar--

CUOMO: --Biden said to the Ukraine. Did you to ask the Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden?

GIULIANI: No. Actually, I didn't. I asked the Ukraine to investigate the allegations that there was interference in the election of 2016, by the Ukrainians, for the benefit of Hillary Clinton, for which there already is a court finding--

CUOMO: You never asked anything about Hunter Biden? You never asked anything about Joe Biden--

GIULIANI: The only thing I asked about Joe Biden--

CUOMO: --and his role with the prosecutor.

GIULIANI: --is to get to the bottom of how it was that Lutsenko who was appointed--

CUOMO: Right.

GIULIANI: --dismissed the case against Antack (ph).

CUOMO: So, you did ask Ukraine to look into Joe Biden?

GIULIANI: Of course, I did.

CUOMO: You just said you didn't.

GIULIANI: No. I didn't ask them to look into Joe Biden. I asked them to look into the allegations that related to my client, which tangentially involved Joe Biden in a massive bribery scheme.

CUOMO: Rudy? Rudy?

GIULIANI: Not unlike what he did in China.

CUOMO: Rudy?

GIULIANI: You explain to me how the kid got $1.5 billion from China--

CUOMO: Rudy, I have no problem with you launching allegations.

GIULIANI: --when Joe Biden was still in his--

CUOMO: But just be careful about what you say. I asked you, did you ask Ukraine--

GIULIANI: I am very careful about what I say.

CUOMO: --to look at Joe Biden, you said "No."

GIULIANI: I didn't ask--

CUOMO: Then you went on to say that you did. The -- it's all--

GIULIANI: No, I didn't say that.

CUOMO: --it's all recorded, Rudy.

GIULIANI: What I said was this. I asked them to investigate the allegations that relate to the false charges against the President of the United States. Those allegations tangentially involved Biden--

CUOMO: So your answer--

GIULIANI: --getting the--

CUOMO: --should have been yes.

GIULIANI: Let me finish, Chris. Let me finish.

CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: And don't try to interrupt because you don't like the answer. And you don't like--

CUOMO: Well I don't like the evasiveness.

GIULIANI: --in what I'm saying. And you don't like--

CUOMO: Evasiveness, I don't like.

GIULIANI: --and you want to distort what I'm saying.

CUOMO: I don't want to distort.

GIULIANI: Because it is totally biased.

CUOMO: I'm not biased.

GIULIANI: You are, Chris. It's sad.

CUOMO: Why would I have you on if I were biased?

GIULIANI: Because-- CUOMO: Knowing that we're going to have this kind of conversation.

GIULIANI: --because it is sad to watch what happened to you. It's sad.

CUOMO: Sad with what -- what happened to me?

GIULIANI: You're a total sell-out.

CUOMO: I'm a sell-out?

GIULIANI: You are a sell-out. I'm going to tell you why.

CUOMO: You are telling me that I'm a sell-out?

GIULIANI: These are crimes of major proportions. And because they're Democrats, you won't cover it. $1.5 million investment by China in Biden's private equity fund, and the partners are--

CUOMO: I'm not saying that these types of things haven't--

GIULIANI: --Kerry's son and--

CUOMO: --shouldn't be looked at.

GIULIANI: --Whitey Bulger's nephew. Do you know that they were partners with Whitey Bulger's nephew?

CUOMO: Rudy, I'm not saying that anything--

GIULIANI: That's outrageous.

CUOMO: --that you're saying shouldn't be looked at.

GIULIANI: And your corrupt media won't cover it because he's a Democrat.

CUOMO: Rudy, I can't just cover something because you say I should, all right?

GIULIANI: No, you don't have to--

CUOMO: That's not the way it works.

GIULIANI: --say I should.

CUOMO: But it got to tell you. You who--

GIULIANI: Read the book.

CUOMO: --you who my whole lifetime stood up for one simple ideal--


CUOMO: --when you were at your best--

GIULIANI: And I am standing -- standing up for justice. CUOMO: --which was character counts and leadership.

GIULIANI: And you are standing up for two systems of justice.

CUOMO: Oh, I'm standing up for two systems of justice?

GIULIANI: Joe Biden can be involved in bribery. Joe Biden's son can get $1.5 billion from China, and you won't cover it. And you want to cover some ridiculous charge that I urged the Ukrainian government to investigate corruption. Well I did and I'm proud of it. And you should encourage it--

CUOMO: Well then it's not -- then it's not a ridiculous allegation. You just admitted it.

GIULIANI: It's a ridiculous allegation.

CUOMO: You just admitted it.

GIULIANI: It's a ridiculous allegation.

[21:10:00] CUOMO: Rudy, you just admitted--

GIULIANI: Of course, of course, of course, I should--

CUOMO: --that you did it.

GIULIANI: --of course I should.

CUOMO: I'm not saying it was wrong for you to do it. I'm asking you--

GIULIANI: It wasn't wrong for me to do it.

CUOMO: --if you asked them, and now you're finally saying yes.

GIULIANI: And I am glad that the only way--

CUOMO: Did the President ask the President of Ukraine--

GIULIANI: --the only way -- I knew this--

CUOMO: --to do the same thing?

GIULIANI: --I knew this a year ago. The only way this would come out is if you come after me. Well fine.

CUOMO: I'm not coming after you.

GIULIANI: Come after me.

CUOMO: I'm asking you questions, OK? And I'm asking you--

GIULIANI: And I'm answering your questions. But you don't like--

CUOMO: --yes, kind of, kind of--

GIULIANI: --the answers.

CUOMO: That's -- well some of the answers I don't love, but I'm letting you give the answers.

GIULIANI: Well you don't like the answers because the answers make out a prima facie case of bribery against a Vice President of the United States.

CUOMO: Well no. They're your -- they're your suggestions about it.

GIULIANI: At the time.

CUOMO: And that's fine. I'm not saying that it doesn't---

GIULIANI: No, Chris.

CUOMO: --deserve discussion.

GIULIANI: Let's talk like a--

CUOMO: Will you please answer my question?

GIULIANI: Let's talk like lawyers for a minute.

CUOMO: All right, good, then respect this lawyer asking you--

GIULIANI: Is the crime of bribery--

CUOMO: Hold on. I don't want to hear it.

GIULIANI: --is the crime of bribery -- the crime of bribery--

CUOMO: Rudy, Rudy, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of them right now.

GIULIANI: I taught law. You're going to listen.

The crime of bribery is if I offer something of value to someone in return for their official action. Joe Biden offered them a one-point fillion -- billion dollar, $1.2 billion loan guarantee in return for him firing a prosecutor.

CUOMO: And you have proof?

GIULIANI: That is a prima--

CUOMO: That it was a quid pro quo situation and you can show it?

GIULIANI: Yes. You know what the proof is? Joe Biden, 2018, January, in front of the Council on Foreign Relations, saying the whole thing.

CUOMO: He said--

GIULIANI: He just--

CUOMO: --I'm going to give you this money if you get rid of this prosecutor?

GIULIANI: 100 percent, exactly.

CUOMO: Send me the transcript.

GIULIANI: Go listen to it and apologize to me. Go listen to it. He said exactly that. But he left one thing out.

CUOMO: Oh! What did he leave out?

GIULIANI: Left out the fact that his son was under investigation--

CUOMO: But isn't that the important thing--

GIULIANI: --which is the motive.

CUOMO: --because he needed to have a motive in order to do it?

GIULIANI: No. The crime actually gets completed when he says "I'll give you the $1.2 billion, but you have to fire the prosecutor."

For whatever reason he wants the prosecutor fired, you cannot offer something of value in exchange for official action. Crime over with. Motive, the kid was under investigation because he had gotten $6 billion from the most crooked Ukrainian oligarch.

CUOMO: Look, obviously, if they could have--

GIULIANI: --a guy named Chenko (ph).

CUOMO: --shown that Biden was doing something for his son that went beyond--

GIULIANI: Get out of here. Get out.

CUOMO: --questionable ethics.

GIULIANI: You believe that, Chris--

CUOMO: All right, listen.

GIULIANI: --then go somewhere on an island.

CUOMO: Listen, but I'll tell you what.

GIULIANI: No. They wouldn't do it.

CUOMO: I wish you had this same attitude when I was asking you--

GIULIANI: And not only that. Not only that.

CUOMO: --about all the ridiculous things that this President has tried to--

GIULIANI: You guys don't cover--

CUOMO: --pass off as truth.

GIULIANI: --you don't cover corruption--

CUOMO: No you're all about incredulous.

GIULIANI: --against Democrats the way you cover corruption--

CUOMO: Yes. All right, you know, it's easy for you to say.

GIULIANI: --against Republicans. If suppose--

CUOMO: --when the current Administration is the one we're look at, right?

GIULIANI: --suppose -- suppose Donald Trump Jr.--

CUOMO: Why don't you wait for a Democratic Administration and then level the charge?

GIULIANI: --got $6 billion -- got $1.5 billion from China while Trump is negotiating with China--

CUOMO: It would be a problem.

GIULIANI: You're damn right. Well--

CUOMO: It would be a big problem.

GIULIANI: --well how come you're not covering the fact that that happened with--

CUOMO: Because I don't know that it did.

GIULIANI: --Vice President Biden.

CUOMO: That's why.

GIULIANI: You know what happened.

CUOMO: You're making it sound like he did it to help his son.

GIULIANI: I'll give you a book.

CUOMO: And I don't know that he did it to help his son.

GIULIANI: It's written in a book.

CUOMO: And he said he didn't do it to help his son.

Now, will you finally answer my question now that we're 12 minutes in it?

GIULIANI: Well do we really believe--

CUOMO: Did the President--

GIULIANI: --we really believe he didn't know his son was under investigation?

CUOMO: Why won't you answer the question?

GIULIANI: What was the question?

CUOMO: What is it with you?

GIULIANI: What's the question?

CUOMO: Thank you. Did the President talk to the Ukrainian President about what he wanted done with Joe Biden and what he wanted done with Paul Manafort?

GIULIANI: I have no idea. I never asked him that. I don't know if he did. And I wouldn't care if he did. He had every right to do it at the President of the United States.

He had every right to say to the Ukrainian President, we have two outstanding allegations of massive corruption and--

CUOMO: Did he ask you to do--

GIULIANI: --you should investigate it.

CUOMO: --what you're doing?

GIULIANI: No. I did what I did on my own. And then I told him--

CUOMO: Really?

GIULIANI: --about it afterwards because I'm his lawyer and I know how to investigate--

CUOMO: So, you never talk to him about it before--

GIULIANI: --and I--

CUOMO: --you only talk to him about it after.

GIULIANI: Three months after I found out about it, and then I found out that it was true, by getting signed sworn statements, from five people in the Ukraine, who said that we were brought into the White House, the Obama White House, and we were told, go dig up dirt on Trump and Manafort in January of 2016. You have no idea how big this is because you're blinded.

CUOMO: I loved--

GIULIANI: You're blinded by--

CUOMO: Give me -- give me the affidavits.

GIULIANI: --your prejudice.

CUOMO: Give me the affidavits. I appreciate the personal insults.

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you the affidavit.

CUOMO: Well why not?

GIULIANI: I'll give them in court. I'm not going to give them to you.

CUOMO: So go present them.

GIULIANI: Who are you?

CUOMO: Who am I? I'm a journalist.

GIULIANI: I'll give them to a court.

CUOMO: You keep saying that--

GIULIANI: But you're not the FBI.

CUOMO: Hold on, hold on, Rudy, Rudy.

GIULIANI: You can't indict anybody.

CUOMO: You -- you want to say I won't cover it because I'm like this, right, you say?

GIULIANI: Oh man, when I -- when I watched the introduction to your show--

CUOMO: But now you won't give me the proof.

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you proof.

CUOMO: What?

GIULIANI: What can you do? You can't indict anybody.

CUOMO: I'm -- so what?

GIULIANI: Believe me. The proof is in the right hands. And you're going to find out about it. And I -- I used to think you'll be embarrassed when you find out what happened. But you know something?

CUOMO: Why would I be embarrassed by the truth--

GIULIANI: You'll find some other excuse--

CUOMO: --coming out?

GIULIANI: Because you should have been embarrassed--

CUOMO: Why would I be embarrassed?

GIULIANI: --when there was no Russian collusion. You should have apologized for all the coverage that you did about--

CUOMO: Why would I apologize?

GIULIANI: --Russian collusion.

CUOMO: I was one of the--

GIULIANI: You should.

CUOMO: --first to say that there is no crime of collusion. I was one of the first to say that--

GIULIANI: Yes. But then you went to say well he did other things wrong.

CUOMO: --there is no such thing as collusion as a crime.

GIULIANI: He did this wrong.

CUOMO: He did do other things wrong.

GIULIANI: Look, you guys are--

CUOMO: And you know it.

GIULIANI: --you guys are on a mission.

CUOMO: And the Rudy Giuliani who was a prosecutor--

GIULIANI: Do you think I'm a fool?

CUOMO: --and a Mayor knew what right was.

GIULIANI: You think I'm a fool?

CUOMO: And what wrong was before he became a lawyer--

GIULIANI: You're on a mission--

CUOMO: --for this guy.

GIULIANI: You're on a mission to get this guy no matter what. And you know something?

CUOMO: That couldn't be farther from the truth.

GIULIANI: Whatever he did is nothing compared to what Biden did. And when you find out--

[21:15:00] CUOMO: Listen, all--

GIULIANI: --you should be embarrassed but you won't.

CUOMO: All right, fine, fine.

GIULIANI: You'll find another excuse.

CUOMO: I look I -- I'm very -- I'm very interested in your personal insults of me. We can meet some other time.

GIULIANI: I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not personally insulting you.

CUOMO: And you can say it all to me face-to-face. And we can get it out.

GIULIANI: I am institutionally--

CUOMO: The hell you're not! But that's OK.

GIULIANI: --insulting you. Chris--

CUOMO: That's -- OK that's OK. That's what you want to do.

GIULIANI: --I'm institutionally insulting you because--

CUOMO: You're institutionally insulting me.

GIULIANI: --your coverage is horrendous.

CUOMO: All right, fine. Let me--

GIULIANI: It is so unfair and it shocks--

CUOMO: --ask you this. If the--

GIULIANI: --me as a person who fought for justice all his life.

CUOMO: Well let me tell you. It gets called into--

GIULIANI: It is shocking to me.

CUOMO: --question with what you've been doing as counsel in this particular case.

GIULIANI: What I've been doing as counsel--

CUOMO: Yes, that's right.

GIULIANI: --is represent my client in the best spirit and in the best way that I can do as a lawyer. And I vindicated him. And now, I am proving that what happened to him was a frame-up.

CUOMO: You didn't vindicate him.

GIULIANI: You're damn right I vindicated him.

CUOMO: You kept him out of -- you kept him out of the chair.

GIULIANI: All you did -- all you did was Russian collusion, Russian collusion, Russian collusion.

CUOMO: You kept him out of the chair with Mueller and that was the best thing you did. And that was a great move.

GIULIANI: And you know what you're going to find out? It was Ukrainian collusion with Hillary Clinton--

CUOMO: Well what we're finding out right now--

GIULIANI: --that she paid $1.1 million for--

CUOMO: --is that an Intel official--

GIULIANI: --and Joe Biden -- and the Joe Biden family--

CUOMO: Fine. Let's--

GIULIANI: --has been selling his office--

CUOMO: --look, you don't want to give me the -- the proof. That's fine. When it comes out--

GIULIANI: I don't have to give you the proof.

CUOMO: --I'll cover it.

GIULIANI: Go read it.

CUOMO: I'm not saying you have to. It'd be nice--

GIULIANI: It's written in books.

CUOMO: --is all I'm saying.

GIULIANI: You just won't read it. It's all over the internet.

CUOMO: You -- you send--

GIULIANI: Go read it.

CUOMO: All over the internet!

GIULIANI: I have the proof. I could--

CUOMO: You send me the affidavits you have of people who give sworn statements of what you said--

GIULIANI: I don't even need affidavits. All I need is Joe Biden's statement on television that he told the President of the Ukraine I'm going to hold back the $1.2 billion--

CUOMO: Right. And he said it had nothing to do--

GIULIANI: --I'm going to finish this sentience that I'm going to--

CUOMO: You said it five times. Say it again.

GIULIANI: --hold back the $1.2 billion if you don't fire the prosecutor. That is the crime of bribery--

CUOMO: Fine.

GIULIANI: --in every country in the world.

CUOMO: He doesn't agree with you.

GIULIANI: And then, if you want a motive for it, his son was under an investigation. And if he didn't notice his son was under investigation--

CUOMO: No. He said he had nothing -- it had nothing to do with him.

GIULIANI: --then he is truly mentally ill.

CUOMO: Now, listen, Rudy, the--

GIULIANI: You don't think I would know my son was under investigation? You don't think when I took my son to China--

CUOMO: I'm saying that if you said that you did something--

GIULIANI: --and he came back with a billion dollars, I wouldn't know it?

CUOMO: --and it had nothing to do with your son. I'd have to have proof of otherwise. Now--

GIULIANI: How about circumstantial evidence?

CUOMO: Rudy, let me ask -- can I -- can I ask you--

GIULIANI: How about circumstantial evidence?

CUOMO: --one thing about the news today so that we can--

GIULIANI: Sure. Whatever you -- whatever you -- whatever you--

CUOMO: --get a little bit of -- little bit of an understanding about national security considerations? Is that all right? OK?


CUOMO: Thank you.

GIULIANI: The national security consideration you should be worried about--

CUOMO: Oh, here we go.

GIULIANI: --is how a compromised Ukraine--

CUOMO: Is that Joe Biden with his son and the thing, right.

GIULIANI: --how they -- how they completely compromised Ukraine--

CUOMO: Right, now--

GIULIANI: --in 2016.

CUOMO: And here's what we--

GIULIANI: And used them as an arm of the Democratic National Committee.

CUOMO: OK. I hear you. Whenever you want the proof to come out, and it comes out, and we can cover it, and I can see what you're talking about--

GIULIANI: No, you won't. No, you won't. No, you won't.

CUOMO: All right. So, you--

GIULIANI: I -- I have no confidence that you will.

CUOMO: --you won't give -- you won't give--

GIULIANI: I used to think that six months ago.

CUOMO: I know. But and -- and you won't give me the proof.

GIULIANI: I do not believe.

CUOMO: All right, fine.

GIULIANI: I believe your network will cover it up.

CUOMO: All right, all right.

GIULIANI: I believe your network will spin it--

CUOMO: OK. Well we'll see.

GIULIANI: --against us that we created it.

CUOMO: You -- you won't give us the proof. But you think we'll spin it. I got you. So--

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you the proof.

CUOMO: I know. I heard you five times.

GIULIANI: I'm going to give the proof to authorities.

CUOMO: Look, here's what I want to ask you.

GIULIANI: There's enough proof--

CUOMO: This--

GIULIANI: There's enough proof for you go after it.

CUOMO: All right, fine, this U.S.--

GIULIANI: If you are being honest and fair.

CUOMO: OK. So, this U.S. Intel official who worked in the White House says he hears something on a phone call, we believe, with the President of Ukraine, that's what the Washington Post has, that troubled him. So, he formed the -- he lodged the complaint with the Inspector General.


CUOMO: Now, there's one legal fight going on between the I.G. and the DNI. That is what it is. But I want to ask you this. You say--

GIULIANI: Well who -- who is this guy? I have no idea who he is.

CUOMO: Well neither do I.

GIULIANI: I'm here -- I'm here on television telling you everything I did. This guy is hiding somewhere--

CUOMO: Well whistleblowers--

GIULIANI: --and skulking around.

CUOMO: --whistleblowers deserve protection.

GIULIANI: And you--

CUOMO: We both know that. But-

GIULIANI: Yes. They do. And whistleblowers are liars, right?

CUOMO: OK. But I'm just saying so--

GIULIANI: Little of both.

CUOMO: Well it'd be nice. Look, if you're not worried about anything -- it's interesting question.

GIULIANI: So why -- how -- how about we take a impartial position and we say this whistleblower could be telling the truth.

CUOMO: Yes, or he could be lying.

GIULIANI: Or this whistleblower could be a Democrat holdover.


GIULIANI: Who was trying to destroy--

CUOMO: And he could be lying.

GIULIANI: --Donald Trump.

CUOMO: And he could be destroying, he could try to be doing that. 100 percent.

GIULIANI: Like a lot of people have done.

CUOMO: A 100 percent. So, in your opinion, now--

GIULIANI: Like the stupid New York Times story the other day, right?

CUOMO: Now, listen, if--

GIULIANI: Did you cover that?

CUOMO: --if--

GIULIANI: How The Times really screwed up the other day?

CUOMO: Listen, if the--

GIULIANI: Did you cover it?

CUOMO: --if the complaint had come out--

GIULIANI: You don't answer that.

CUOMO: Well I'm trying to get a question out to you about this.

GIULIANI: OK. Well Chris, what -- what do you--

CUOMO: Because this kind of matters to me.

GIULIANI: --what do you want to know?

CUOMO: I got to be honest, OK?

GIULIANI: OK. Well try.

CUOMO: So, if -- if the complaint goes to the I.G., we'll both know what the law is, OK, the DNI and the I.G. have a disagreement about whether or not they're supposed to get it. The DNI then says, reportedly, "There is someone above us that does not want this to be discovered -- delivered to Congress." If--

GIULIANI: I don't even know what you're talking about. There's somebody above us doesn't want to be delivered it to.

CUOMO: Above the DNI.

GIULIANI: What are we talking about?

CUOMO: I don't that--

GIULIANI: I don't know about this--

CUOMO: --that's why I'm asking you. Who--

GIULIANI: --conversation.

CUOMO: --what power in the Executive Branch above the DNI would not want this kind of complaint delivered to Congress?

GIULIANI: I have no -- I have no idea why they -- why they would or why they wouldn't. All I can tell you is if what is reported is true, it doesn't make a damn. It doesn't make any difference.

If the President of the United States said to the President of Ukraine "Investigate the corruption in your country that has a bearing on our 2016 election," isn't that what he's supposed to do?

CUOMO: What if he said--

GIULIANI: That is what he's supposed -- unless you assume that the President's guilty.

CUOMO: What if he said--

[21:20:00] GIULIANI: As opposed to the fact that those people in the Ukraine were trying to frame the President--

CUOMO: What if he said--

GIULIANI: --which is exactly what they were doing.

CUOMO: What if he said I have $250 million--

GIULIANI: Oh, man!

CUOMO: --that you want.

GIULIANI: If he said that?

CUOMO: Why don't you investigate--

GIULIANI: Hold God! That would be really!

CUOMO: --what's happening with Joe Biden and what's happening and--

GIULIANI: Is it but you know--

CUOMO: --what you did to me in 2016.

GIULIANI: Isn't that--

CUOMO: And I'll give you the $250 million.

GIULIANI: Isn't that exactly what Joe Biden did and admitted on tape in--

CUOMO: So, you so--

GIULIANI: --in 2018.

CUOMO: --so if -- so if the President said that--

GIULIANI: No, wait a second. Wait a second, Chris. Stop going.

CUOMO: --you think it was wrong?

GIULIANI: Can I -- you asked me the question. You got to take the answer. You can't cut -- cut if off.

CUOMO: No. I don't have to take it. You can't run in an--

GIULIANI: No, no. CUOMO: --opposite direction towards Joe Biden--

GIULIANI: No, I'm not running in an opposite direction.

CUOMO: --every time I ask you something about the instant case.

GIULIANI: I am -- I am making a point, which I'm entitled to make, if you want to hear from me. If you don't want to hear from me, just cut me off. So, the--

CUOMO: No, I will never cut you off.

GIULIANI: --the fact is--

CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: --the fact is what you're saying to me is completely equivalent with what Joe Biden admitted on tape two years ago, and you didn't cover, which is, "I told the President of the Ukraine, you're not going to get your $1.2 billion, unless you fire the prosecutor."

How come you didn't cover that? How come I wasn't called on here the night that that happened? Because you're not fair. You're not fair in your coverage.


GIULIANI: Would you please recognize that? Now, I'll tell you about Trump, right?

CUOMO: Go ahead.

GIULIANI: I have -- I have no knowledge that the President ever said anything. I don't even know about the $250 million--


GIULIANI: --in -- in aid. I have no -- no knowledge of that. I just know about me -- various meetings--

CUOMO: When you're done--

GIULIANI: --they were going to have.

CUOMO: --I'll tell you why I'm asking.

GIULIANI: But the reality is that the President of the United States, well whoever he is, has every right to tell the President of another country, you better straighten out the corruption in your country, if you want me to give you a lot of money, because if you are so damn corrupt that you can't investigate allegations of corruption--

CUOMO: That would be fine.

GIULIANI: --our money is going to get squandered.

CUOMO: That would be fine.

GIULIANI: And don't you think that's happened in the Ukraine under Yanukovych?

CUOMO: I think that there was a lot of corruption.

GIULIANI: You don't think all that money that Obama gave him was squandered?

CUOMO: I think there was a lot of corruption.

GIULIANI: Of course, it was. The guy was working for Russia--

CUOMO: All right, so--

GIULIANI: --while Joe -- while Joe and Obama--

CUOMO: --here's why I ask you the question.

GIULIANI: --were giving him billions.

CUOMO: Here's why I ask you the question.

GIULIANI: But nobody covers that.

CUOMO: Here's why I ask you the question. So--


CUOMO: --the President has this conversation. There's something in the conversation that's troubling enough for someone to lodge a complaint under the whistleblower statute about it.

GIULIANI: Who knows who this person and what motive he has?

CUOMO: OK. But just--

GIULIANI: Half the people in the government--

CUOMO: Hey, Rudy, we covered that.

GIULIANI: --half the people in the--

CUOMO: I'm -- I'm trying to tell you my premise for the question.

GIULIANI: You don't think there's a Deep State?

CUOMO: Listen.

GIULIANI: Of course, there is.

CUOMO: I think there's a little bit of a Deep State going on--

GIULIANI: I know it. I've confronted it.

CUOMO: --right in this conversation right now. What I'm trying to say is--

GIULIANI: I'm a Deep State? I'm totally transparent, Chris.

CUOMO: --after Adam Schiff--

GIULIANI: I go on television. I answer the questions.

CUOMO: --after -- well not so great tonight.

GIULIANI: I don't lodge anonymous--

CUOMO: I got to be honest.

GIULIANI: --I don't lodge anonymous complaints.

CUOMO: You know, you've been very insulting. You've been very circumspect--

GIULIANI: Yes, I'm very, Chris--

CUOMO: --and very distracting.

GIULIANI: --I'm very insulting directly to your face.


GIULIANI: Not behind your back.

CUOMO: Well yes.

GIULIANI: And I don't do anonymous sources or let me skulk around and scoot somebody up.

CUOMO: No, I know. But it's also not very fair what you're saying.

GIULIANI: If I don't like--

CUOMO: But let me get back to what matters.

GIULIANI: If I don't like what you're doing, I'd tell you.

CUOMO: I understand.

GIULIANI: And I think your network is corrupt--

CUOMO: I know. I heard you the first five times.

GIULIANI: --in the way they cover--

CUOMO: And yet, here I am, giving 20-plus--

GIULIANI: --the way they cover the President.

CUOMO: --minutes to the President's lawyer to make the case--

GIULIANI: Yes, you're-- CUOMO: --on national television.


CUOMO: Hmm! Boy, do I hide the ball?

GIULIANI: Go cover -- go cover Biden's bribery--

CUOMO: So, look, one -- one sticky--

GIULIANI: --in Ukraine. Go cover him taking--

CUOMO: --wicket at a time.

GIULIANI: --$1.5 billion out of China.

CUOMO: Let me ask you--

GIULIANI: And then I'll respect you again.

CUOMO: --this question because I want your--

GIULIANI: Then I'll respect you again.

CUOMO: --lawyer's mind. Listen, If I -- if -- listen--

GIULIANI: Not just you.

CUOMO: You respect--

GIULIANI: Your network.

CUOMO: You respect -- no, no, you keep saying it.

GIULIANI: It's in the tank.

CUOMO: So let's -- let's -- deal with me. You say whatever you want.

GIULIANI: I am dealing with you.

CUOMO: You respect me. You don't respect me. That's on you.

GIULIANI: I don't respect the way you're covering the fact--

CUOMO: I live my life. I do my job the way I think.

GIULIANI: --that there was a--

CUOMO: Fine.

GIULIANI: --massive--


GIULIANI: --there was a massive scandal involving Joe Biden.

CUOMO: I hear it. I've let you say it 10 times.

GIULIANI: In the billions of dollars.

CUOMO: I've heard it.

GIULIANI: And you are not covering it.

CUOMO: I know. But you are also you are doing everything you can to spin away from what I'm trying to ask you about.

GIULIANI: I am not. The President did nothing wrong.

CUOMO: You said you know nothing about anything.

GIULIANI: Zero wrong.

CUOMO: The President, who's your client--

GIULIANI: He did nothing wrong.

CUOMO: --knew nothing about what you were doing for him in the Ukraine.

GIULIANI: He did what a President -- what an honest--

CUOMO: He only knew after.

GIULIANI: --decent President should do.

CUOMO: Very convenient. So then, this is what I want to ask you about.

He has this conversation. The person gets upset and files the complaint. After Adam Schiff sends the letter, to the DNI, saying I want that complaint, the $250 million is released to the Ukraine that had been held back all this time.

GIULIANI: I don't know anything about that except for the fact that if Adam Schiff sent me a letter, I would just tear it up, and throw it in the garbage.

CUOMO: Yes, yes, yes, of course, of course. Why did they release the money right after Adam Schiff?

GIULIANI: I -- I don't know. I have no idea. I don't--

CUOMO: You don't think that's co--

GIULIANI: --I don't run the government.

CUOMO: Listen, you're spinning things together at a whole cloth.

GIULIANI: I'm not spinning anything, Chris.

CUOMO: Now, you're not curious about that.

GIULIANI: I'm not serious about what? CUOMO: You're not curious about the $250 million getting--

GIULIANI: OK. You want to talk hypothetically?

CUOMO: --getting released only after--

GIULIANI: I can only talk hypothetically about it.

CUOMO: --there are questions about what was said to the President of Ukraine.

GIULIANI: If the President of the United States said to the President of any country, I have -- I am not going to give you money because your country is corrupt, you got to straighten out these problems.

CUOMO: We don't know that that's what he said.

GIULIANI: Well I don't know what he said either.

CUOMO: And -- and -- and but why would that upset--

GIULIANI: We don't know what he said because--

CUOMO: --an Intel official. Why would an Intel official--

GIULIANI: --we're having a -- you and I are talking about--

CUOMO: --get upset by that?

GIULIANI: --an anonymous informant.

CUOMO: That's right.

GIULIANI: We have no idea if he's credible or not. And you're making a big deal out of it because--

CUOMO: Well -- well--

GIULIANI: --you want to make a big deal.

CUOMO: --we don't know nothing.

GIULIANI: Wait, wait. Damn it.

CUOMO: The Inspector General--

GIULIANI: Let me finish.

CUOMO: No, I got -- I got to cut you. You've been talking the whole time.

GIULIANI: No. You can't cut me off.

CUOMO: The Inspector General--

GIULIANI: This isn't-- CUOMO: --knew enough about--

GIULIANI: You only cut me off because this is--

CUOMO: --what was said--

GIULIANI: --this is a program with an agenda as opposed doing a program--

CUOMO: Listen, the agenda is to get some truth--

GIULIANI: --that wanted to cover the truth.

[21:25:00] CUOMO: --and not spin. The Inspector General assessed the whistleblower complaint. They found it urgent enough to want to go to the DNI--

GIULIANI: But they don't know all--

CUOMO: --and under the statute.

GIULIANI: The only thing the Inspector General can do is look at the -- look at what the person says, and say we have to investigate it. He has no idea if the person is honest, dishonest, or crazy.

CUOMO: Really? You don't think part of what the I.G. is doing is assessing the credibility of the person who comes forward with the complaint?

GIULIANI: 100 percent, they have no idea how to do that.

CUOMO: What do you mean he doesn't know how to do that?

GIULIANI: No idea how to do it.

CUOMO: How could you say that?

GIULIANI: And, by the way, it is perfectly appropriate for a President to say to a leader of a foreign country, investigate this massive bribe--

CUOMO: I know. But if it was in general--

GIULIANI: --that was paid by a former Vice President--

CUOMO: --and it was specific, and it was quid pro quo--

GIULIANI: --that our media in America is covering up.

CUOMO: --that would be troubling and then the money got released right after Adam Schiff asked for the complaint. That's what I wanted to ask you about.

GIULIANI: All right, so you got to ask somebody else about that.

CUOMO: I appreciate your take on it. GIULIANI: I don't know the--

CUOMO: I will.

GIULIANI: --I don't know the answer to why it was released. But I find nothing wrong in what he did. I find a lot wrong--

CUOMO: You don't even know what he did.

GIULIANI: --I find a lot wrong in what you are covering up.

CUOMO: Believe me, I'm well aware.

GIULIANI: And what you continue to cover-up, and what your network continues to cover-up--

CUOMO: And I'm telling you, you give me proof--

GIULIANI: --which you'll make what--

CUOMO: --of what you found.

GIULIANI: I have proof.

CUOMO: I will vet it and put it -- give it to me.

GIULIANI: Go look -- go look at Joe Biden--

CUOMO: I did. Everybody has heard that video.

GIULIANI: --January of 2018 admitting--

CUOMO: It's not a new story.

GIULIANI: --bribery, 100 percent.

CUOMO: He does not admit bribery--

GIULIANI: Go look.

CUOMO: --a 100 percent because he says--

GIULIANI: Go look.

CUOMO: --there -- there was no quid pro quo. He wasn't doing it for his son.

GIULIANI: He didn't say that. He didn't say that.

CUOMO: He said I'm not doing it for my son.

GIULIANI: He left his son out of the conversation. He just said I told the President of the Ukraine--

CUOMO: When he's been asked about this, he said, I did nothing for my son and the timing-- GIULIANI: A year later.

CUOMO: --doesn't match up.

GIULIANI: A year later.

CUOMO: That's when he was asked.

GIULIANI: And he said "I didn't know my son was under investigation."

CUOMO: All right, Rudy, look--

GIULIANI: Garbage!

CUOMO: --no matter -- no matter what I hear tonight after this interview--

GIULIANI: Completely not true. And you are--

CUOMO: --I won't--

GIULIANI: --you are now--

CUOMO: Yes, what am I now?

GIULIANI: --engaging in all kinds of fantasies--

CUOMO: What am I -- what am I now?

GIULIANI: --about the President when there's clear proof about a Democrat, and you can't handle it.

CUOMO: What?

GIULIANI: And how about we go to China when he flew his son there on Air Force Two--

CUOMO: Listen, Rudy--

GIULIANI: --and eight days later, the son--

CUOMO: --I don't know what any of this has to do--

GIULIANI: --got 1.2--

CUOMO: --with what I've been asking you about tonight.

GIULIANI: What it has to do with--

CUOMO: I got to be honest.

GIULIANI: --how unfair you are. Do you get that?

CUOMO: It's unfair for me to not--

GIULIANI: It's unfair. CUOMO: --want to tolerate you talking about Joe Biden all night long when we have an Inspector General, fighting with the DNI, fighting with Congress, over a whistleblower complaint that involves this President--

GIULIANI: So, we have an anonymous whistleblower compliant--

CUOMO: --and you and what you've been doing playing with Ukraine.

GIULIANI: --we have an anonymous whistleblower compliant compared to clear proof--

CUOMO: All right, I got to go, Rudy.

GIULIANI: --that Biden's son got $1.5 billion from China. And you won't cover it. Tell me you're not unfair.

CUOMO: Rudy, I told you. Give me the proof.

GIULIANI: Nobody -- nobody buys that, Chris.

CUOMO: But I'm -- I'm sure they buy--

GIULIANI: That's why your network has no ratings.

CUOMO: --I'm sure they buy that--

GIULIANI: They buy the fact that you are in the tank--

CUOMO: --everything you are saying right now has nothing to do with--

GIULIANI: --of the Democratic Party.

CUOMO: --distracting from what this President's problems--

GIULIANI: I am not distracting.

CUOMO: --might be.

GIULIANI: What I am pointing out--

CUOMO: You've been doing it for over a year and a half, OK?

GIULIANI: I haven't been doing that.

CUOMO: The hell you haven't.

GIULIANI: What I've been doing is pointing out how unfair you are--

CUOMO: You've been distracting from the truth--

GIULIANI: --and how you tried to frame the President.

CUOMO: --for a year and a half, and I hope you enjoy it.

GIULIANI: And you're doing it again. CUOMO: Because this President got the benefit of something you built up for decades, your credibility, and you put it on the line for him.

GIULIANI: I'll put my credibility on the line--

CUOMO: Good choice.

GIULIANI: --1000 percent. And I think your network is a horror to this country.

CUOMO: That's fine.

GIULIANI: You are undermining--

CUOMO: That's -- and I -- yet I still have you on.

GIULIANI: --you are undermining fairness and justice in this country.

CUOMO: And yet, I still had you on.

GIULIANI: When a Vice President--

CUOMO: I'm so unfair that I had you on.

GIULIANI: --of the United States can come out of China eight days later--

CUOMO: And I've had you say that a dozen times--

GIULIANI: --with $1.5 billion, and you won't cover it.

CUOMO: --on my air. And I've asked you for proof.

GIULIANI: Tell me you're not corrupt.

CUOMO: And I have you on anyway--

GIULIANI: I have proof.

CUOMO: --even with all this trash coming out of out.

GIULIANI: There is proof. The proof has been there for two years.

CUOMO: All right.

GIULIANI: And you're covering it up. And the proof of his bribery--

CUOMO: I got you. Rudy, send the proof whenever you want.

GIULIANI: --is from his own mouth. And you're covering it up.

CUOMO: I hear up.

GIULIANI: And you covered up so much more about Hillary.

CUOMO: I'm covering it up so much-- GIULIANI: It's disgusting.

CUOMO: --that I've kept this interview going 28 minutes, and let you say it a dozen times.

GIULIANI: Yes, and interrupted me 500 times.

CUOMO: That's how afraid of it I am.

GIULIANI: To try to stop me from--

CUOMO: Well you've made two points.

GIULIANI: --telling the American people--

CUOMO: You've made two points.

GIULIANI: --what's actually going on--

CUOMO: You've made two points.

GIULIANI: --so you can continue to mislead them--

CUOMO: All right.

GIULIANI: --which is what you're doing.

CUOMO: Well you've been here the whole time, so you're part of it now. You're co-conspirator.

GIULIANI: I'm not part of misleading.

CUOMO: Rudy Giuliani--

GIULIANI: Everything I said, I can document.

CUOMO: --thank you -- give it to me.

GIULIANI: Every single thing I said I can document.

CUOMO: Then give me the documents. Thank you.

GIULIANI: I'm not going to give you the documents. Why would I give you the documents?

CUOMO: Because you want the truth to come out.

GIULIANI: You're not going to use them for a good purpose.

CUOMO: You're not making any sense to me on this point.

GIULIANI: If I trusted you -- of course I'm making sense.

CUOMO: All right, now you don't trust me either. All right, Rudy Giuliani--

GIULIANI: Why would I give the enemy the documents?

CUOMO: Oh now I'm the enemy?

GIULIANI: You are not fair.

CUOMO: Now I'm the enemy?

GIULIANI: You are not impartial.

CUOMO: Great!

GIULIANI: You are totally biased.

CUOMO: Rudy, anything else?

GIULIANI: And your network is the creature of the Democratic National Committee.

CUOMO: OK. Rudy Giuliani, I appreciate your take, as always.

GIULIANI: And you should be embarrassed--

CUOMO: All right, I'm the one who should be embarrassed?

GIULIANI: --to be on that network.

CUOMO: OK, Rudy.

GIULIANI: Absolutely.

CUOMO: I'm -- I'm embarrassed.

GIULIANI: Man, the CNN is a disgrace.

CUOMO: I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed, for you. Have a good night.

GIULIANI: Well you shouldn't be embarrassed for me. That's garbage.

CUOMO: Have a good night.

GIULIANI: Don't be embarrassed for me.

CUOMO: Somebody needs to.

GIULIANI: I'm worried about you.

CUOMO: Because you're not aware of what you're doing.

GIULIANI: And your integrity.

CUOMO: Good night.

GIULIANI: Of course, I'm aware of what I'm saying.

CUOMO: Good night. Have a good night.

GIULIANI: Well you -- you shouldn't have a good night because what you're doing is very bad for the country.

CUOMO: Rudy, all right, I got to go, all right? With respect--

GIULIANI: Yes, well go.

CUOMO: --I've got to go.

We're going to try to digest what to pull out of that with former General Counsel to the FBI about how this complaint system should have worked, what has actually happened here, and what are the questions going forward.

Jim Baker says he doesn't think that this whistleblower scandal is going to end well. Why? Next.








CUOMO: All right, let's get right to Jim Baker here. It's good to have you on PRIME TIME.




CUOMO: Let's go through what matters here. I understand what Rudy was trying to do. I don't appreciate how he was doing it. I'll take that up with him later.

But the sum and substances of this, "Doesn't matter what the President said to the President of Ukraine. It's fine," what is the line?

JIM BAKER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FBI GENERAL COUNSEL: Well so, look, I mean I -- I'm not going to -- I don't know what the facts are here.

CUOMO: Right.

BAKER: I'm -- I'm a bit reluctant to speculate, obviously. And, you know, I--

CUOMO: But can a President say anything--

BAKER: --having spent most of my--

CUOMO: --to another President?

BAKER: Can a President say anything? No, a President can't say literally anything.

[21:35:00] The President of the United States has been given authorities, and duties, and responsibilities that he must execute, consistent with the Constitutional laws of the United States, in the interests of the American people.

He's taken an oath to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution. And he is obligated to take care that the laws are faithfully -- faithfully executed, among other things.

So, he can't say anything. He must act in a way that is consistent with his oath and consistent with his other responsibilities under -- under the Constitution. What exactly was said in a conversation with a foreign leader, if that what -- if that is what this is all really about--

CUOMO: Right.

BAKER: --and we don't know that, then he just can't say anything to some foreign leader that might be unlawful, unethical, immoral, elicit, that type of thing. So no, he -- he -- he doesn't do that.

And the President -- this is something that I -- I do get a little bit worked up about is the President doesn't have any rights under the Constitution. The people have rights under the Constitution. The President has duties and responsibilities. And he needs--

CUOMO: Fair point.

BAKER: --to put the interests of the American people -- he needs to put the interests of the American people first at all time.


BAKER: Not his own personal or political interests, in my opinion.

CUOMO: So, let's look at what was supposed to be the process here, and what has gotten constipated to this point. So, whatever the President said in this phone call, reportedly, made this U.S. Intel official concerned enough to file a whistleblower complaint.

It now goes to the I.G. That's where the complaint is filed under the statute. The I.G., according to Rudy Giuliani, does not do, and has no ability to do any type of assessment of whether the complaint is believable. I don't think that that is true by any guideline I have looked at for an I.G.


CUOMO: What is your understanding? BAKER: No, that's preposterous. The -- the I.G. of the Intelligence Community has plenty of authorities and plenty of resources to be able to investigate something of this nature, just like the other I.G.s do around the -- the government.

I've been investigated many times by I.G.s. It's not a pleasant experience to go through. But they have plenty of resources. They produce very voluminous well-documented reports.

CUOMO: Right.

BAKER: You might agree with them. You might disagree with them. But they have the capability, I.G.s, in general, and this I.G. in particular, have the capability to investigate something of -- of this scope, for sure. That's--

CUOMO: And that--

BAKER: --so that's just -- that's just preposterous.

CUOMO: And whether somebody is a lawyer or not, it stands to reason that for the Inspector General to assess a complaint, and come up with a finding that it was urgent enough, to motivate them to go to the DNI about it, obviously, they had made a credibility assessment, and some type of sufficiency case on their own side.

So now they go to the DNI, and they say, we believe under the statute, this is something in your purview that should now be passed along to Congress. Now, two things happen. One is that the Counsel on the DNI says -- says, "No, I disagree. I don't think that this is within the DNI purview."

What is your understanding of that type of conflict?

BAKER: Well so that -- that is a legitimate thing to me to for -- for the DNI to -- to do. When he is confronted with this, if he had some level of confusion about it, or didn't know exactly what to do, to consult with his -- his counsel, his main lawyer, that seems legitimate to me.

The -- the General Counsel the -- of ODNI is a capable, trustworthy person of high integrity. And so, it is legitimate to go seek his advice on that kind of question, and then that is what the legal advice is for the -- for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, what -- what the DNI General Counsel says.

CUOMO: So what is the--

BAKER: And my understanding here is--

CUOMO: Go ahead, go ahead. Thank you, Jim.

BAKER: Yes. Go ahead.

CUOMO: Go ahead. BAKER: I was just going to say my understanding is that the next thing that happened is that, I don't know if it was the DNI directly, or the General Counsel, one of them, or both of them, then went to the Justice Department to seek the Justice Department's views on what the law said with respect to what -- what they could or -- or had to do under these particular circumstances, and that then led to another serious event, so I'm happy to chat with you about it.

CUOMO: Is that kosher? Is the DNI supposed to do that if it's not clear?

BAKER: Yes. No, I mean -- so when I was in the FBI, as a General Counsel, and at the Justice Department, I frequently went, in particular, to the Office of Legal Counsel--


BAKER: --which is the -- the office most likely that they went here that that they -- that they went to, in this particular circumstance, to seek their counsel. You know, the OLC typically is -- is -- has numerous very smart lawyers, who -- who can help and give great advice and -- and so on so.

Reaching out to OLC on a tough legal question doesn't seem improper or, you know, anything untoward about that. But that's probably what happened.

[21:40:00] The thing about talking to OLC though, especially if you get an opinion from them, is that their legal determination is binding on your agency and the rest of the Executive Branch. They operate--

CUOMO: Right.

BAKER: --OLC operates under delegated authority from the President. The President is the one who actually has the authority to make binding legal determinations for the entire Executive Branch.

He's delegated that authority to the Attorney General and to the Office of Legal Counsel. And so, the reality is for people in the Executive Branch, what OLC says, goes.

CUOMO: Right.

BAKER: They have the final word on what the law is for the Executive Branch.

CUOMO: All right, I want to take one step sideways in the analysis, and then want to get back to the idea of what's supposed to happen now. But the step sideways is this.

Rudy Giuliani, at some point in that interview, admitted what he denied, assuming he was, you know, really thinking about what I was asking, which is, "Yes, I went to Ukraine, and asked them to look into these allegations about Biden, because I have all these affidavit."

He had a whole proof argument there about why it was OK for him to do that. What are the guidelines for when it is OK? He says the President didn't know what he was doing until after he did it.

So, let's assume that for the sake of the analysis, what's the line?

BAKER: Yes, I can't -- I had a hard time understanding even exactly what he was saying. And I -- I feel like I need a--

CUOMO: Makes two of us.

BAKER: --an Aspirin and a ginger ale or a shot of whiskey or something after that whole discussion so.

CUOMO: Yes. Imagine being me!

BAKER: I didn't really understand it clearly.

CUOMO: So, but the idea of--

BAKER: Yes, so, look--

CUOMO: --if he went to Ukraine, and said, "You need to look at what happened with Joe Biden and people trying to set up the Trump campaign," if he went there, and said that to Ukraine, or to one of their places, one of their emissaries somewhere, if he delivered that message, how -- why would that be wrong?

BAKER: Well so the -- look, I don't know exactly why he's doing that.

Is he doing that in connection with the campaign? Is he doing it under some other authority? Is he there at the direction of the President as some type of diplomat or something? It's not yet all clear to me exactly why he was doing it.

And understanding facts--

CUOMO: He says he was just defending his client.

BAKER: Yes, it doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not going to sit here and pronounce, Chris, that it's unlawful in some way--

CUOMO: Right.

BAKER: --without having done a deeper analysis of that.

But the -- what is -- what is concerning to me is the extent to which the President, and those around him, are willing to go overseas, to seek the assistance of foreign governments in -- with respect to internal affairs.

Look, if the -- if the -- Mr. Giuliani thought that something was improper, the way to do -- the way to deal with, if improper being illegal, go to the FBI. Take the facts to the FBI. Have them investigate it. If there's some violation of U.S. law, then they're the ones that are equipped to deal with it.

CUOMO: He suggested--

BAKER: I -- so I don't understand what he was doing.

CUOMO: He suggested that he has given them all this proof that he has, and he won't give it to me, and you heard his whole explanation for that.

Jim Baker, I appreciate you helping me wade through the analysis, and I appreciate even you more, you having to listen to the first interview, and wonder what I was going to ask you about, coming out of it. I'm sure that that was a nice head trip for you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

BAKER: Yes, thank you.

CUOMO: All right, so now--

BAKER: Thank you.

CUOMO: Now, as you're processing, well what -- what is the outcome of this kind of situation? Here's a suggestion.

We have brand-new numbers that suggest, if you look at the polls, this dynamic of who's the enemy, and who isn't, and fair, and fake, and all of this stuff, it's having an effect on you, not just the agita that Baker was talking about, but that it is motivating turnout in a way that we may not have seen before.

The Wizard of Odds will put meat on those bones, next.








CUOMO: All right, so we know that you guys are all going crazy over that Rudy Giuliani interview. Two things. Thank you for all the well- wishing. He can say whatever he wants about me personally. That is a look for you at what our new normal is.

Why didn't I return it? One, I have respect for him. I've known him my whole life. He supported my father, a lifetime ago. And that's not what we do on this show. I don't have to insult somebody personally to make cogent points and attest power. And I'm not going to do that. He can. That's his choice.

Now, second of all, I know he threw a lot out there. And I know a lot of it is troubling. Let me try to pull some truth out of some of the allegations, all right? And you don't have to take our word for it, although you should. But,

in real time, double check this with PolitiFact, OK? They looked at this in May of this year. Here were their main takeaways.

Hunter Biden did hold a Directorship for a Ukrainian gas company while his father was Vice President. If you think that smells bad, you're not wrong.

Experts agree, Biden holding the position created a conflict of interest for his father. There's no question about that. But that's not enough to say that there's a crime. You got to look at what was happening and why.

Vice President Biden did press Ukraine to fire its top prosecutor. He did have the threat of withhold -- withholding U.S. aid. He admitted that there was bullying involved.

But he wasn't doing it personally. He doesn't have that kind of money. It was the position of the wider Obama Administration. It's a meaningful distinction.

Lastly, PolitiFact found no evidence to support the idea that Joe Biden advocated with his son's interests in mind, OK? It's not even clear that Hunter's company was actively under investigation or that a change in prosecutors benefited that situation, all right?

And again, if there is proof to the contrary, I welcome it.

[21:50:00] Now, the President is not in a hurry to deal with these questions about Ukraine. But I got a case for him on something else. I see a big win on the horizon for this President. I'm not talking about the election. I'm talking about something right now.

That is my Closing Argument. May be a little weird, after what Rudy said about me, but I have an argument for this President that I think he's going to want to hear. Next.








CUOMO: All right, so Mr. President, you're on the verge of a signature achievement. That's what I see this potential gun safety legislation as.

I argue to you that your advisers are selling you short and scaring you off of this legislation for bad reason. I know you value pragmatism over principle, and that's OK. Both will point you to the same place on this.

First, it is the right thing to do. And when the NRA, and the naysayers are not in your head, you instinctively get that. After Parkland, you got it.

"I will be strongly pushing Comprehensive Background Checks with an emphasis on Mental Health. Raise the age to 21. End sales of Bump Stocks. Congress is in a mood to finally do something on the issue. I hope!"

[21:55:00] And then, we know what happened. The NRA got to you, and that fear of losing the core of your supporters made you shift. But one of your political talents is knowing your crowd. And you know very few things galvanize Americans like these shootings do. The resolve is growing.

And, by the way, the NRA is mired in scandal, and dropping in its membership. Here are the numbers about this country.

Look at the numbers. 89 percent to 9 percent support requiring background checks for all potential gun buyers. 86 percent support a law allowing police to take guns from someone a Judge finds dangerous, what we're calling red flag laws, these days.

You like to be the winners. The numbers are clear. And so, again, after the attacks in Texas and Ohio recently, you swung back to where your head and your gut take you.

"We cannot let those killed in El Paso, Texas, and Dayton, Ohio, die in vain. Republicans and Democrats must come together, get strong background checks. We must have something good, if not GREAT, come out of these two tragic events!"

And you were right! But then those around you start their chirping about the base, and how the Democrats will never give you credit, and you slid back to a place of fear.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: We're not moving on anything. We're going very slowly in one way, because we want to make sure it's right.


CUOMO: The principled position is clear. Background checks on all commercial transactions are well within the legal and political parameters. You would be the first one to get it done here.

And the man on your staff who has been best to you, and for you, is your Attorney General, and he believes the same thing. He's running around trying to get this together, get bipartisan support, finesse it to your advantage, but it can't happen without you. I know your guys are saying to let the bill come to you. It won't.

Your guys in the Senate are too scared. And even Mitch McConnell is hinting he wants a nudge.

Did you hear this?


SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): We need some guidance from the President about what kind of proposal that would make a difference he would actually sign into law. I think, given the multiple horrendous shootings in August, we owe it to the American people to act.


CUOMO: Now, be careful with him, because he's creating some space for himself there that he thinks something should be done, but he's waiting on you. Now, you wouldn't let him vote on the House bill that passed seven months ago, so this has to be done in the Senate, at least to start.

And now, to the key sticking point, the base. What happened after you did bump stocks? NRA was against it. They rallied the rabid. You did it anyway, not Congress, you, naked. And it was not about future sales.

Bump stock owners were legally required to destroy the devices or turn them in, very aggressive, no cover from Congress. So, what happened? Before, 37 percent approval. A month later, 39. In party, 86, 87 after. You lost no one.

Now you're saying, "Beto O'Rourke, he hurt the chances of a deal." Look if he did spook people, he's the only candidate going that far. The law is probably not even in line with his thinking, and it's not anywhere in Congress right now.

This is about you and what you want. That's why lawmakers are pausing. And the fear of confiscation, or something short of that, like a ban, is all the more reason for you to deliver something far short of what he wants, and others may want.

So, beyond the logic, the proof of what happened when you acted on bump stocks, and the overwhelming support, for the things that your own loyal A.G. is putting together, the source you trust most has already told you the reality here.


TRUMP: I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue, and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK? It's, like, incredible.



CUOMO: You're right. They don't care what you do with the truth, what you deny, who you divide, how you hide. You can say and do whatever you want.

You pass this legislation, you have a chance of getting some new support, because there are people who believe you would never do this, you don't have the head, or the heart, to do what's needed.

There's no basis other than scared advice to believe you're going to lose any of your base. You know it yourself. You heard what you just said. And you'll be doing the right thing on an issue that matters and will likely save lives.

You want MAGA to mean something other than a return to days of division? This is the kind of move you make. The table is set. All you have to do is do what you do best, tell people what you want, and take credit when they get it done.

Now, I know what Rudy said about me. I forgive him for that. He was just making his argument. He was doing it in his own way. I'm making this argument to you and to your followers because it just makes sense for all of us.

Thank you for watching. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Nice closing statement -- Closing Argument. You know what I want to talk about, don't you?


LEMON: You don't? You have no idea?

CUOMO: None! Help me.

LEMON: Yes, it's pretty boring show you had, so I don't want to talk about anything. No, seriously, I want to talk about Rudy Giuliani.

CUOMO: I know.

LEMON: I know you think I'm going to come down on you, and say, why would you have him on? No, but I actually thought that it was a substantive interview. And not that you really care what I think, right, but--

CUOMO: Of course, I do. I love you.


CUOMO: And I respect you.

LEMON: So, here's what -- here's what I think. I thought it was substantive. I thought that he was, and I think that I'm right, trying to pull a Corey Lewandowski-