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S.E. Cupp Unfiltered

Trump's DNA: Deny, Normalize, Attack; "New York Times:" Second Whistleblower Considering Filing A Complaint; Pompeo, State Department Entangled In Ukraine Scandal; Sen. Bernie Sanders (D-VT) Arrives Home After Suffering Heart Attack; Biden Continues To Slam Trump; Biden Continues To Field Questions About Son's Business Dealings, Despite No Evidence Of Wrongdoing; Impeachment Inquiry Threatens To Overshadow 2020 Campaign; Trump's Right-Wing Media Firewall On Impeachment; Critics Slam Barr For Politicizing The Role Of Attorney General. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired October 05, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:00]

S.E. CUPP, CNN HOST: Welcome to a special hour of UNFILTERED: Road to Impeachment.

Here's tonight's headline, call me maybe. It is Week 2 of the Democrats' impeachment inquiry, and it was yet again an eventful. The very latest, I mean, like if you went to bed early last night, you might have missed it. A second official who was alarmed by President Trump's dealings with Ukraine is deciding whether to file his own whistleblower complaint and testify before Congress.

Also breaking, House Democrats subpoena the White House for more documents and communications tied to Trump's call with Ukraine, President Zelensky and withholding aid to Ukraine, and, of course, there are the texts, texts that House Intel Republican Will Hurd calls damning. They were just released showing how concerned some diplomats were with the president's position in Ukraine.

Said one diplomat to the other, are we now saying that security assistants and White House meeting are conditioned on investigations? To which of other responds, call me.

Yes, I have been on the receiving end of one of those before when I'm texting with a source, and they respond, call me. It means whatever they're about to say is not something they want in print. Of course, when I text, call me, to my husband, it usually means he is in trouble.

But enough about me, this isn't about me. This is about the president. You might not know it to listen to him, because he's on a warpath to blame and attack everybody else, the fake news media, Mitt Romney, whom he called a pompous ass on Twitter this morning, Shifty Adam Schiff. But get used to it, folks. This is in Trump's DNA. Trump has got a very clear pattern when he's under fire, deny, normalize and attack, DNA. Check it out. First, he denied pressuring Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, just like he denied Russia's election interference, just like he denied paying Stormy Daniels hush money, just like he denied saying he'd make Mexico pay for the wall, denied saying things he definitely said on camera. He said he didn't pressure Ukraine to investigate the Bidens, but that he could, but then the Ukraine call transcript came out showing he did just that.

So Trump moved to the normalized phase. He said the call was perfect. He urged Ukraine again to investigate the Bidens, doing the very thing he's being accused of and could possibly be impeached over. He went even further telling China, a communist dictatorship, to hop on board the corruption train, and then saying it in broad daylight. I have an absolute right, perhaps even a duty to investigate or have investigated corruption. And that would including asking or suggesting other countries to help us out.

Now, here's a little thing to listen for as well. Trump is fond of saying he has the absolute right to do whatever he wants, as if saying it makes it so.

In January, after Congress refused to fund his border wall, I have the absolute right to do a national emergency if I want. Last June, I have the absolute right to pardon myself. December 2017, I have the absolute right to do what I want to do with the Justice Department. May of 2017, after he shared classified information with Russian officials, I have the absolute right to share intelligence with Russia. The more he says it, the more he hopes you end up thinking, yes, why not?

Well, now, he is on to the attack stage. A quick glance at his crazy Twitter feed today, re-tweeting a Pinocchio clip calling Adam Schiff, Lying Shifty Schiff, Impeachment Romney, the media is fixed and corrupt. That's just a sampling, folks.

Here's the deal. He does this DNA dance because it often has the desired effect, wearing us down with deflections and distractions, gaslighting the media and the American public, telling you to your face the sky is green.

Well, this one is actually really, really simple. He told at least one foreign government to investigate his political rival. He made a meeting at the White House contingent upon that investigation and then withheld aid to the nation in order to increase the pressure, and then his administration tried to cover it up. That's what happened. It's in black and white. It's in a transcript, it's in text messages and it's out of the president's own mouth.

Now, you can decide whether all of this is impeachable or not, but it's what happened and the people surrounding Trump need to ask themselves a pretty serious question, how much longer do they keep saying this was okay?

[18:05:13]

Okay, joining me now to discuss is Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle.

Congressman, let's start with the latest news. The New York Times reports a second intelligence official is considering filing a whistleblower complaint.

Now, I think that's remarkable considering how hostile an environment Trump and his defenders on Fox have created for whistleblowers. What would you say as a member of Congress who will ultimately receive any new whistleblower reports to anyone considering coming forward to assure that they feel safe and secure doing so?

REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D-PA): Well, thanks, S.E., for having me back on. First, I very much admire the courage of the initial whistleblower who came forward, as well as the courage of this person who it sounds like -- this additional person who it sounds like is also weighing to come forward.

I would point out that even though a lot of focus has gone on the original whistleblower, keep in mind that the inspector general of the Intelligence Community actually went to the sources that the original whistleblower got this information from and deemed it to be highly credible.

CUPP: Right.

BOYLE: We also, frankly, have the White House summary of what was said on the call, where I reacted very strongly was not actually based on the whistleblower complaint, which if I recall the chronology of the amazing events of the last two weeks, the whistleblower complaint didn't come out until about 24, 48 hours after the White House summary.

What's in that call is clear quid pro quo. Literally, the very next sentence after President Zelensky, who by the way right now is witnessing and experiencing part of his country under Russian occupation, let's not forget that. President Zelensky very much needs the hundreds of millions of dollars of aid that I and others on both sides of the aisle push for. The very next sentence the president says, I need you to do me a favor though. That right there is quid pro quo.

CUPP: So the White House is expected to send a letter to Speaker Pelosi on Monday, pressing her to hold a floor vote on the impeachment inquiry because, presumably, Trump thinks Democrats don't have the votes right now. Is he right?

BOYLE: Be careful what you wish for. First, I mean, there is -- at this point, the impeachment inquiry has clearly started. So it would be a rather redundant action if we took that vote. But I do think if and when we ultimately take a vote, you'll actually see far more Republican members on the fence and caught in a top position, then you will see Democratic members.

Ever since this whole Ukrainian matter emerged two to three weeks ago, you have had remarkable unanimity when it comes to the Democratic Caucus. Within the span of a few days, you saw the numbers go from about 120 Democratic members calling for an impeachment inquiry to upwards of between 220 to 230. So President Trump should be careful what he wishes for on this.

CUPP: I want to ask you about Republicans, because I know you have Republican friends in Congress, and I want to get your take on that. But, first, let me just go back real quick.

Trump says the White House will cooperate after there's a formal vote. Do you think Democrats should give him what he wants and then hold him to it?

BOYLE: I am not naive. There is no way President Trump is going to cooperate with us in this investigation, because he knows he's guilty. You know, he has been doubling down on this behavior ever since, even if he gave him exactly what he wanted, he would move the goal post, and I think most people understand that.

CUPP: So when you talk to some of your colleagues, do you hear from any Republicans privately? And you don't have to name them though, feel free, who say that they are legitimately concerned and contemplating supporting at least an impeachment inquiry?

BOYLE: As I think you know, I actually have a lot of friendships on the other side of the aisle, and I've been able to produce real meaningful legislation with Republican colleagues of mine, especially as it relates to foreign policy.

Over the last three years, without revealing any names, a significant number of Republican friends of mine have said things about the president, expressed their deep concerns, things that they don't want to say publicly, because they know it would put them in a really tough spot, especially if facing a Republican primary.

I don't know, when push comes to shove, how many Republican members will vote for impeachment. I do know that behind the scenes, there are a number of Republican members who are deeply concerned and alarmed about what has become public.

[18:10:00]

CUPP: Give me an estimate of numbers. How many numbers, do you think?

BOYLE: It's a bit -- it's both what I've heard and a bit of an educated guess, but in the House --

CUPP: Go ahead.

BOYLE: I would say in at least two dozen, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's even more than that. Just based on my own personal knowledge, I would say about two dozen.

CUPP: Fascinating, and thank you so much for that insight. I really appreciate. You'll have to come back and see if that number gets updated at all. Congressman, thank you.

BOYLE: Yes, all right. Thank you.

CUPP: Coming up, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and his department are playing a starring role in the impeachment inquiry, text messages, subpoena deadlines, I'll have the latest.

And a bit later, conventional wisdom versus President Trump, it's a matchup he's won time and again. Will it apply to impeachment? And what about 2020?

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CUPP: The damning texts between U.S. diplomats and a senior Ukrainian aide that detail how the Trump administration put pressure on Ukraine has the State Department in a precarious position. Secretary Pompeo is thus far defying a congressional subpoena by not turning over relevant documents by the Friday deadline.

[18:15:01]

He's also been blocking the testimony of key State Department officials.

But we will hear from at least two key witnesses next year, U.S. ambassador to the E.U., Gordon Sondland, of the aforementioned damning texts, and ousted ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, whom, according to The Wall Street Journal, Trump ordered removed following complaints by his personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, and others.

Okay. With me now is the former State Department spokesman and a CNN Military and Diplomatic Analyst, Rear Admiral John Kirby, along with the Former Assistant U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York and a CNN Legal Analyst, Elie Honig.

Okay. Admiral Kirby, I start with you. Let's go through some of the players here, because I think people can be confused with a lot of these names people didn't know before this week.

U.S. ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland was texting with Kurt Volker, former special envoy for Ukraine, and Bill Taylor, an American diplomat. My question, why was the ambassador to E.U. involved in any of these issues?

JOHN KIRBY, CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: That's a great question, S.E., and I don't think we have heard a good answer from the administration on this. I mean, the ambassador to the E.U., that is a fairly nebulous position. I'm not saying it's not legitimate. It's just that being an ambassador to E.U., you could expand your boundaries in that job quite a bit and use that to get involved with all kinds of bilateral relations to the degree that the president wants you to. And that's really the key, S.E., this is what the president wanted him to focus on at this time, and, clearly, he was deeply involved.

CUPP: And he finds these folks. Whether they're in the right jobs or not, he finds the people that are going to do what he wants.

Elie -- go ahead.

KIRBY: No. I was just saying, it's just important to remember that Sondland is a political appointee. Unlike Bill Taylor, he was a political appointee that the president brought on specifically for this job, and he was a main donor to the campaign.

CUPP: That's a very, very important point and distinction.

Elie, former special envoy to Ukraine, Kurt Volker, testified behind closed doors, Thursday, and made a number of alarming revelations. What stood out to you as problematic for Trump?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. So there's a lot of problems in Volker's reported testimony and the texts. Number one, there's a lot of talk about a quid pro quo. Let's just quick side note, you do not need a crime in order to impeach. But if you have a crime, you have a very strong case.

And so there's a lot of question, is there a exchange here. These texts are a gold mine for a prosecutor. I mean, they lay it out as about as clear as you'll can ever see an exchange laid out in real life. This idea you heard from White House, assuming the president initiates an investigation, then we'll give them a visit. It's laid out, this for that.

And then there's the cover-up aspect of it. You just showed the call me text. And I've had similar experiences as a prosecutor, as you have with sources, when someone says call me, they mean, hey, yes, don't say this in print. And so you see how centrally involved the State Department is both in the exchange and the cover-up.

CUPP: Well, I want to talk about the State Department. Admiral Kirby, what is happening there right now? Are people lawyering up, are they polishing resumes or do you think they're trying to just go about their business? Take me inside right now.

KIRBY: The colleagues that I've been speaking to and staying in touch with, the professional Foreign Service officers, they are trying to just continue to do their job. Some are are here in D.C., some are overseas, they've important work to do. They're trying to just focus on that and not let the political headwinds get in their way.

That said, my former colleagues, I mean, they're demoralized by this. This is not the way they feel they should be representing the United States to the world. Many of proud because of Ambassador Taylor for pushing back on this -- the cutting of the aid in return for the investigative comments that they wanted Zelensky to make. But they're sort of not happy about the leadership of Pompeo with respect to this and the degree to which the bilateral relationship with Ukraine, which is indefinitely in our national security interest, was politicized.

CUPP: Elie, Mike Pompeo, as you know, did not turn over the documents that were subpoenaed. What's going to happen next with that like from a legal standpoint?

HONIG: Yes. So I think we could have a legal battle. First of all, it struck me as really sort of hypocritical, ironic that you have Donald Trump talking about how whistleblowers and people provide information should be treated like spies in the old days, and then Mike Pompeo gets a lawful congressional subpoena and says it's bullying tactics. I mean, I think you can see the contrast there.

But it looks to me like Pompeo is going to defy this subpoena. And then we're going to have -- we could potentially have a legal battle, but I don't think that's the road Congress can go down because that's going to take forever. There's a real time clock ticking here.

CUPP: Which Mike Pompeo also knows?

HONIG: He's trying to drag it out, no question about it. But Adam Schiff has shown that he's ready to play hardball. He said, if you don't respond, we're going to draw an adverse inference. Meaning, we're going to assume what you would have said supports the allegations. And he also dropped a note in his cover letter in the subpoena that, by the way, we also can return an article of impeachment for obstruction of Congress against your boss.

CUPP: Okay. Admiral Kirby, one last question from you, what the heck was in that envelope that the State Department inspector general dropped off to Congress?

[18:20:04]

KIRBY: Yes, I don't know. It seemed to be a collection of papers that Giuliani collected, you know, conspiracy theory stories and just sort of odds and ends that had been dumped off on the State Department I.G. by the Legal Counsel, who got it, I guess, from Giuliani and from Pompeo. So it's just a weird collection of material that sort of would support Giuliani's conspiracy chase.

That said, what's really curious is why did it sit so long? Why was it at the State Department I.G. for so long and not brought over sooner?

Can I just go back to something Elie was saying because I think he's exactly right? But just -- I think we should continue to play and play again the video of Pompeo when he was Congressman Pompeo, and just -- and leading the investigation into Benghazi over months and months and months, and screaming and yelling about not getting documents and information and witnesses that he wanted from the State Department.

And now, it's his turn to be on the other side of that. And I think it's healthy to remind him of what it's like to see on the other side of that dance (ph).

CUPP: All right. There're no points anymore for intellectual consistency. There is just -- there're no points. But, Admiral John Kirby, I appreciate you making that point. Elie Honig, thanks so much for joining me, both of you. I appreciate it.

KIRBY: Thank you. Okay. I mean, it all seems bad, but this president has some tactical advantages that could see him overcome impeachment and sail into a second term. That's coming up.

And later, among his biggest cheerleaders, right-wing media, specifically Fox News. If things start to crack there, do we get to wake up from this? We'll discuss, next.

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[18:25:00]

CUPP: Some breaking news into CNN's Senator Bernie Sanders has returned home to Burlington, Vermont after suffering a heart attack and having two stents insert. He said he was feeling great and will spend the next several days resting and recovering, but we will see him on the debate stage on October 15th.

While Senator Sanders recovers, the House is dealing with impeachment, and other 2020 Democrats are out on the trail, trying to stick to their campaign platforms.

For one candidate though, that's been tough. Right or wrong, Joe Biden is at the center of Trump's attempts to corrupt our elections, and he has not been able to avoid the subject. This was at a campaign stop yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He's indicted himself by his own statements.

This is a guy that's unhinged. He is unhinged. I worry about what he's going to do, not about me or my family. I'm worried about what he'll do in the next year as the presidency, as this thing continues to rot on his watch.

This guy, like all bullies, is a coward. He does not want to run against me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: I mean, as confident as Biden sounds, Trump will have some serious advantages as this process unfolds. One is history. Impeachment is never resulted in a president's removal from office. Nixon resigned before his impeachment even got a vote. And in Bill Clinton's case, his impeachment only help his approval numbers, reaching his highest point ever, at 73 percent.

Impeachment is a risky gamble any time and one that ultimately might injure Democrats more than Trump.

Okay. Another advantage, money. According to data from Facebook's public ad archives, Trump and his allies are outspending rivals on impeachment-related advertising on that platform by as much as four to one. Days after the impeachment inquiry was announced, Trump campaign manager Brad Parscale boasted 50,000 new donors in two days, and growing.

There's also his platform. Two things Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon didn't have when they were going through this, people forget Fox News and Twitter. Trump has proven he is adept at using both to spin his narratives, smear his rivals and rally his base behind it.

So what is impeachment in the midst of a presidential election mean for Democrats?

With me now is CNN Political Commentator, Van Jones, host of "THE VAN JONES SHOW" and a former special adviser to President Obama.

How worried are you from a strategy standpoint about impeachment maybe being good for Trump?

VAN JONES, CNN HOST: Listen, this is a big curveball and we just don't know. The era of Trump is defined by its unpredictability, the things in the past would have been a complete game over for a politician, it actually helped Trump. And so you could make the case that impeachment could do that.

I think what Democrats are now saying is that even if it hurts them in 2020, they feel they have to do something and they feel that the Constitution is more important that even possibly losing an election.

Bu I think Biden is in a particular peril. It's very clear that Trump is terrified of Biden. He is going through all these machinations because he knows that every poll, poll after poll, every single poll ever taken, Biden beats Trump, period. And so he's decided he wants to pull Biden down by whatever means he has to.

Unfortunately, every time Biden stands up and says, as he doesn't have to say, I'm not corrupt, what people hear is I'm corrupt. Every time he says, my son is not a crook, what you hear is, my son is a crook. And so, in some ways, Trump, once again, crazy like a fox by him going after Biden, his most powerful rival. In this way, he could be rewarded for the process, and even the impeachment gives him the chance to continue go after Biden.

CUPP: Well, I want to talk more about Biden because there are more uncomfortable awkward angles for him in here. There's no evidence of any wrongdoing for either Biden in Ukraine, but does Trump telling China that he'd look the other way on protests in Hong Kong bring up the fact that Joe Biden once defended China's one-child policy, for example, or his boss, Obama, telling Dmitry Medvedev he'd have more flexibility to deal with certain issues after his re-election?

I'm not drawing comparisons. I'm just wondering if this Ukraine story will potentially put Biden in a tough spot with some of this stuff.

JONES: Well, it tees up those attack lines especially in the right- wing media. I literally just did an interview from a show upcoming where those attack lines were literally already coming out as I was talking to people who are concerned and defends President Trump.

[18:30:00] I think that the big challenge for Democrats overall is that we are in uncharted territory on uncharted planet and uncharted universe.

CUPP: Yes, right.

JONES: And so it's very, very hard to plan. It's very hard to come up with strategy.

CUPP: Yes.

JONES: The thing I do believe is that for the political class, this is a new situation. The fact that Trump is on the lawn of the White House, pulling foreign powers into our election.

CUPP: Yes.

JONES: For us, that is a new situation. I don't know yet. We'll have to see it in the polling data. For ordinary people, we've been on 11 for three years.

CUPP: Yes. Right. Right.

JONES: They may not be able to draw a distinction between this crazy tweet and this thing that was rude and this was a very new situation, a U.S. President trying to drag in foreign powers. So it's going to take a minute for this coat of paint to kind of settle and then we'll see how are the voters actually responding, are there any right wing media figures that began to move.

CUPP: Yes, I kind of talk about that too.

JONES: These are the kids of question that are going to make a big difference, I think.

CUPP: We're going to talk about Fox. But before I go, I got to get you on one other thing, another issue I'm grappling with as we are covering Trump through another election is whether the media is applying as much scrutiny and skepticism to the Democratic candidates. As it rightly is to Trump, Joe Biden has been telling what The Washington Post called a 'moving but false war story' on the campaign trail.

Elizabeth Warren's false claims of Native American heritage are now something of like an untouchable story. You're not even supposed to ask about it. Bernie Sanders accepted donations from pharma executives just before pledging not to take money from pharma executives. Now, you can say none of this is as bad as what Trump has done, fair.

But do you think we should still take those issues pretty seriously, considering one of these people might be the next president?

JONES: Well, the answer is yes. And I actually think that we do, it's really interesting because I don't think for at least for CNN viewers, none of those stories are new. Oh, my god, I never heard of that before. CUPP: Right. Sure.

JONES: And so we have been addressing it. I think the big problem is that Trump takes up all of the oxygen for better or for worse. When it helps him, when it doesn't, he just takes up all of the oxygen.

I think that you're going to have now a tough time for Democrats to get out there, positive points. Those are negative points. It's going to be hard for Democrats to get out there positive points in the light of this big impeachment mushroom cloud.

CUPP: Yes. Good points. And thanks so much for your insight, my friend. Always good to see you. Stick around for Van immediately following my show. He takes on the impeachment investigation and its impact on the country. Hearing from all sides of the debate. Don't miss THE VAN JONES SHOW coming up at 7:00 Eastern on CNN.

Up next for me, the President's best friend in this fight, Fox News. But is it a relationship that may be showing signs of strain?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:36:30]

CUPP: In The Red File tonight, it's a tale of two foxes. Under the late Roger Ailes' direction, Fox News jumped on the Trump train early and the rest is history. As I'm sure you know their top talent in primetime is all-in for the President, defending him against the impeachment inquiry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

INGRAHAM ANGLE, FOX NEWS HOST: Democrats are doing the equivalent day after day of yelling fire in a crowded theater and that theater is America.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: This important news and information will prove that the media mob has been and continues to be covering for Joe Biden and his son.

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: This is a rush to judgment by left-wing Democrats who are engaged in literally a coup d'etat. Their goal is to drive the President of the United States out of office because they hate him. Now, I don't think partisan hatred comes under high crimes and misdemeanors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: I remember that guy. But there's another Fox voices that are expressing not only skepticism, but indignation. People like Chris Wallace, Shep Smith, Andrew Napolitano. And just this week an op-ed from Fox host Tucker Carlson in The Daily Caller made this stunning admission that says, "Donald Trump should not have been on the phone with a foreign head of state encouraging another country to investigate his political opponent, Joe Biden. Some Republicans are trying, but there's no good way to spin this as a good idea." Trump for his part hasn't been trying, calling Fox out when it strays from his preferred messages. A month ago he tweeted Fox isn't working for us anymore, threatened to start looking for a new news outlet. So are there cracks in Trump's Fox firewall? Here to discuss Republican Strategist Doug Heye and former Senior Adviser to Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign Zac Petkanas.

Doug, Tucker's op-ed, you know Tucker, I know Tucker ...

DOUG HEYE, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Yes.

CUPP: ... was sterling because it criticized the President. Now, he went on to say that he didn't think any of this was impeachable which is a legitimate opinion to have, but what did you make of that move by Tucker.

HEYE: I was surprised by it, but also take what you can get. One of the things that I've started to hear from Democrats is that when a Republican speaks out against Trump but doesn't speak out enough, some of them criticize them but some Democrats are like, "Well, wait a second."

If we want to get to that place, don't criticize somebody for making one step at a time because they didn't make ten steps.

CUPP: Yes

HEYE: So I was surprised by this. I think Tucker is right, ultimately, that this is not what a president should be talking about.

CUPP: Yes.

HEYE: Is it impeachable or not, we've got a lot more to investigate.

CUPP: Zac, Trump regularly lashes out at people like Shep Smith and other Fox personalities who aren't as supportive as others are. But recently he's been going after Fox itself, what do you make of that?

ZAC PETKANAS, ADVISER, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Look, I think that Fox News and Donald Trump need each other. Fox News has spent years building up a rabid pro Trump audience that is going to back the President no matter what. Donald Trump understands this and he needs it as well.

And so he is going to try to keep the network on the right track and Fox News is going to do what it needs to do to keep the business and the viewership that it has created over the past couple of years.

CUPP: But Doug, Trump is saying Fox could move all the way left and he'd win without them. Is that true to Fox voters listen more to Trump or whatever Sean Hannity says?

HEYE: Well, I think that still is something that we have to learn, but what we know is that the Fox viewer is the most devoted and loyal viewer that is there on cable news, short of maybe WWE whose fans will follow them anywhere. [18:39:58]

I'll give you one example, the day before I signed with CNN, I was on Fox News and I got an email or a note on Facebook from the mother of one of my best friends from high school and college, in fact, college roommate. And she said I saw you on Fox and you were great and I was so proud of you. And I sent her a note back and said, "Thank you so much. I'm about to sign with CNN, so you'll have to watch me there." And she said, "Oh, I'm sorry I won't see you anymore."

CUPP: Yes, right.

HEYE: She could take the time to send me the note, she won't change the channel.

CUPP: Yes. My dad too. Zac, Joe Biden, this is so interesting, Joe Biden recently asked the cable networks to stop booking Rudy Giuliani. Kamala Harris wrote to Jack Dorsey to kick Trump off Twitter. Do you think Democrats risk looking scared with stunts, I'll call them stunts, but with actions like these, I mean at best, at worst, do they look a little undemocratic?

PETKANAS: I think what Democrats risk by calling for this are losing our best advocates for impeachment, going out there and articulating the reasons why they should.

CUPP: Donald Trump himself.

PETKANAS: Donald Trump himself going out there. He's the one who articulated the reasons why he needs to be impeached. And Rudy Giuliani, every time he goes out there, creates more problems for himself and get the President in more trouble. So I say let's book him on all of the networks all of the time.

CUPP: I'm sure. Doug, Paul Ryan, we know that guy, he's on the board at Fox. Does that in some ways put him in a more powerful position to handle Trump than he ever had when he was Speaker?

HEYE: Potentially, but right now he's enjoying time off and not having to worry about politics and talk about politics and talk about Trump all day long.

CUPP: Yes.

HEYE: And I think he's enjoying that. I don't expect him to make any change anytime soon.

CUPP: Yes.

HEYE: It's why maybe Mitt Romney is in what was the old Paul Ryan role of speaking out when necessary for Republicans against Trump.

CUPP: Oh, is that what he's doing. OK. Doug, Zac, thanks for joining me. It seems like a million years ago, but no, it was this week that the Speaker of the House accused the Attorney General of going rogue. He appears knee-deep in this, the role of Bill Barr is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:46:18]

CUPP: All the President's Men, it's a great movie, one of my favorites and maybe relevant now more than ever. Trump has surrounded himself with supporters, fixers and yes-men. And for those who have obliged, they now risk getting ensnared in his impeachment mess. One of those men, Attorney General Bill Barr. The DOJ declined to pursue the whistleblower's allegations, allegations that Barr, the head of that agency was directly implicated in when the President of the United States told the President of Ukraine that Barr would assist him in investigating the Bidens.

Executive Editor of The New Yorker website and CNN Global Affairs Analyst David Rohde wrote about Barr recently in a piece called The Dangerous Position of William Barr. He joins me now.

So David, what is this dangerous position? What dangers lie ahead for Bill Barr?

DAVID ROHDE, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: So the President has essentially implicated Barr and pressuring Ukraine to help him attack Biden. That is an impeachable offense. We haven't had an attorney general sort of accused of misusing his position to that extent since John Mitchell. There were Republicans who attacked Eric Holder, we can talk about that separately.

CUPP: Yes.

ROHDE: But this is a whole sort of range of things where Trump is sort of - I'm sorry, excuse me, where Barr has blocked the release of Trump's tax returns, the Justice Department provided a legal opinion on that. The administration's blocking of subpoenas from six committees, the Justice Department says that's legal, publicly he said the FBI might have spied on the Trump campaign.

So it's the many different ways, Barr is sort of serving up legal opinions that help Donald Trump that alarm a lot of people in the legal community.

CUPP: So you mentioned John Mitchell. He went to prison for ...

ROHDE: For Watergate.

CUPP: Yes.

ROHDE: And that has not happened yet and it's more the ...

CUPP: Right. Are they similar, John Mitchell and Bill Barr?

ROHDE: Well, so after Watergate and there was a big effort to try to make the Justice Department seem a political or less political, they're not going to be perfect but that they will judge people equally under the law and that the Attorney General will recuse themselves from critical cases. So Janet Reno recused herself from Whitewater. She did not ...

CUPP: Right.

ROHDE: ... and the President ended up impeached during George W. Bush's administration, Alberto Gonzales and John Ashcroft recused themselves for the Valerie Plame case about her being leaked. So there's an expectation that Barr should recuse himself to this, that no one is above the law and the law will be applied equally.

CUPP: Yes.

ROHDE: And the most famous thing with Barr is his summary of the Mueller report, that it cleared the President when it clearly did not.

CUPP: Yes. Yes, oh, I remember. But let me just ask, let's frame this a different way. The Attorney General is appointed by the President.

ROHDE: Yes.

CUPP: It's part of the executive. Is it naive of us, maybe, to think that the AG will truly be independent and impartial when he's a political appointee?

ROHDE: So the kind of post Watergate norm is that if the President is like, I want to crack down on drugs, the Attorney General enforces that policy, or I want to crack down on pharmaceutical companies. What the Attorney General should not do is go at that specific pharmaceutical company's CEO who didn't give their president - the campaign contribution that they wanted.

CUPP: Right. Right.

ROHDE: There should not be like individual tailoring of prosecutions to benefit the President politically.

CUPP: Yes.

ROHDE: And I know that's sort of complicated, but that has become the norm for the last 40 years so the American people trust our police and our judges and our whole system.

CUPP: You mentioned Eric Holder.

ROHDE: Yes.

CUPP: Obama's Attorney General was criticized by Republicans, yes, for evading, going around Congress. He was held in contempt, in fact, for refusing to turn over documents about fast and furious. His DOJ, as you know, prosecuted leakers and whistleblowers and came after journalists.

[18:50:05]

Do you think Bill Barr is worse and why? ROHDE: I think so far, yes, I think Bill Barr is worse. I want to like condemn Holder though for being held in contempt to Congress in resisting congressional oversight. The most dangerous dynamic here is a weaker and weaker Congress.

CUPP: Yes.

ROHDE: Since 9/11 you've had kind of Congress being less involved in oversight and it's a co-equal branch of government and it's good we have these checks and balances, and it's good that Republicans were pushing Holder and Obama. But I do think Barr is more dangerous because he is protecting the President self from potentially criminal conduct.

CUPP: Yes.

ROHDE: Holder was held in contempt recording a very bad operation by the ATF that led to the death of an ATF officer. Those are two different things.

CUPP: Yes.

ROHDE: But these are critical things about our democracy, equal powers of government, equal branches. The President has to sort of obey an impeachment request for certain documents. I mean we're looking at a constitutional crisis, this hasn't happened in decades.

CUPP: Well, it's a great piece. You should check it out on the newyorker.com and I know you're working up a book on this, so that'll be great to read.

ROHDE: Thank you.

CUPP: David Rohde, thank you so much. We'll be right back.

[18:55:11]

CUPP: The United States is a beacon of democracy, a nation built on free speech, free and fair elections, a free press and freedom of assembly. But the President of the United States is willing to trade all of that in, if it means he can accrue more power and he's using a corrupt abusive and dictatorial government to do it.

As we now know, President Trump told China's President Xi on a June 18th call that he would remain silent about the pro democracy protests by Hong Kong citizens who are currently hanging on to every thread of democracy they have in order to advance his trade talks with Communist China.

And now we're in a week where violence in Hong Kong has significantly escalated, Trump has asked a communist government which is tear gassing its own citizens, where a teenage protester was shot by police, where police are accused of acting like hounds after rabbits to help him investigate an American citizen, his political rival, Joe Biden. What Trump told the Chinese and what he later asked the Chinese is an affront to democracy and American values and at a time when Chinese citizens need more of both. OK. Important programming note, in just 10 days, the next Democratic presidential debate is coming to CNN. The CNN and New York Times Democratic Presidential Debate, Tuesday, October 15th at 8:00 Eastern. "VAN JONES" is up next.