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Rudy Giuliani's Position Hangs in the Balance; Acting DHS Secretary Resigns; Veteran Fox News Anchor Steps Down; Shepard Smith Left Fox News; Former U.S. Ambassador To Ukraine Blames President Trump And Rudy Giuliani For Her Removal; Interview With Rep. Denny Heck (D-WA) About Marie Yovanovitch Testimony; The White House Crisis With Laura Coates; Trump Won't Say If Giuliani Is Still His Personal Lawyer. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired October 11, 2019 - 22:00   ET




ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: The news continues. I want to turn things over to Don Lemon and CNN Tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is CNN breaking news.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: And this is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

Here is the breaking news we have right now. The acting Secretary of Homeland Security resigning tonight. Kevin McAleenan only held that post since April.

Here's what a source is telling CNN, that McAleenan feels that he's accomplished all that he could, given today's political climate and that it is unlikely legislation dealing with immigration will happen in the coming election year. We're going to have much more on what his resignation means. That in just a few moments. It's a very busy night.

Also tonight, is Rudy Giuliani still President Trump's lawyer? The president was asked a direct question on the White House Lawn, and he wouldn't say yes.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is Rudy Giuliani still your personal attorney?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I don't know. I haven't spoken to Rudy. I spoke to him briefly yesterday. He is a very good attorney and he has been my attorney.


LEMON: The president saying I don't know, and everybody scratching their heads. So, is Rudy Giuliani still his lawyer or not?

Well, tonight a source is telling CNN that, yes, Giuliani is still President Trump's lawyer but won't be handling matters involving Ukraine. And it's not hard to see why.

Giuliani getting too hot to touch with the arrest and indictments this week of his two associates who were helping him try to dig up dirt on Joe Biden in Ukraine. But now they are charged with violating campaign finance laws, accused of funneling foreign money into U.S. elections.

And to make matters worse for Giuliani, the two men were arrested while trying to board a flight to Europe with one-way tickets. And Giuliani himself is a subject of that federal investigation.

Just moments ago, the New York Times reporting he is being investigated for breaking lobbying laws in his dealings with Ukraine. The president immediately putting distance between himself and Rudy following those arrests.


TRUMP: I don't know those gentlemen. I don't know. Maybe they were clients of Rudy. You'd have to ask Rudy. I just don't know. I haven't spoken to Rudy about it. I don't know.

I will say this. From what I heard -- I just heard about this -- they said, we have nothing to do with it. We're totally -- we have nothing to do with it.


LEMON: Like I said, Rudy's getting too hot to touch.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you concerned that Rudy Giuliani will be indicted in all of this?

TRUMP: Well, I hope not.


LEMON: Getting too hot to touch. One source telling us that Rudy is still Trump's lawyer, but we have to wonder how long that will last. For how long?

For the second time in his presidency, a personal attorney for Donald Trump is under investigation. The first, of course, was Michael Cohen, Trump's longtime attorney and fixer, who is now in federal prison. When Cohen flipped on Trump, the president couldn't get far enough away. Here's how he downplayed Cohen's role in 2018 to Fox & Friends.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But isn't his business your attorney, Mr. President?

TRUMP: Well, I many, many -- just so you understand, I have many attorneys. I have attorneys -- you -- sadly, I have so many attorneys you wouldn't even believe it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much of --


TRUMP: So, Michael is somebody --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, how much of your legal work was handled by Michael Cohen?

TRUMP: Well, as a percentage of my overall legal work, a tiny, tiny little fraction. But Michael would represent me and represent me on some things. He represents me like with this crazy Stormy Daniels deal. He represented me. And, you know, from what I see, he did absolutely nothing wrong.


LEMON: Well, we'll see how much longer Giuliani stays on as Trump's attorney. This is just one element, one element in a bad day, in a bad week. A very bad day and a very bad week for President Trump as the impeachment inquiry picks up steam.

Center stage on Capitol Hill today, Marie Yovanovitch, the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, who was removed from that post earlier this year by Trump, testifying behind closed doors.

The New York Times got a copy of her statement to Congress. In her statement, she told investigators this. "I do not know Mr. Giuliani's motives for attacking me. But individuals who had been named in the press as contacts of Mr. Giuliani may well have believed that their personal financial ambitions were stymied by our anti-corruption policy in Ukraine."


She wasn't playing along with the scheme to dig up dirt on Joe Biden, and that angered Giuliani, who lobbied the president to dump her.

The White House and State Department tried to block Yovanovitch's appearance, but she was subpoenaed, and she came anyway. Imagine that. It sounds like she had a lot to say.


REP. DENNY HECK (D-WA): I just sat through eight hours that went like a New York second. It was that amazing, that powerful, that impactful.


LEMON: That was Congressman Denny Heck. He will be here a bit later in this show. President Trump had this to say about Yovanovitch today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: She may be a wonderful woman. I don't know her. But she may be

very much a wonderful woman. If you remember the phone call I had with the president, the new president, he didn't speak favorably. But I just don't know her. She may be a wonderful woman.


LEMON: A wonderful woman? Trump trashed her in that controversial July phone call, saying that the former ambassador from the United States, the woman was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news, so I just want to let you know that. And he didn't stop there.


TRUMP: I heard very bad things about her, and I don't know if I recalled her or somebody recalled her, but I heard very, very bad things about her for a long period of time. Not good.


LEMON: From not good to she may be a wonderful woman. And we have to wonder on this very bad day in a very bad week for Trump if he's finally realizing that the impeachment inquiry into his dealings with Ukraine is picking up steam and he can't stop it.

The White House is trying to delay and slow it down and publicly push their talking points that there was nothing amiss about the July phone call. President Trump again today called it a perfect call, and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who earlier this week flat-out said that he is taking all of his direction from the White House, saying this.


MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I think the only ones who thinks Zelensky was pressured are a handful of folks in the media and a bunch of folks on Capitol Hill the Democratic party who are trying to take down this president.


LEMON: No pressure. Perfect call. An ambassador sacked, who has now had the chance to speak directly to Congress. A bad day in a bad week for President Trump. He lost on three big legal fronts today as well.

An appeals court rejecting Trump's attempt to stop his accounting firm from turning over eight years of financial records to House Democrats.

A district judge ruling that Trump's national emergency declaration to build a border wall is unlawful. And federal judges in three separate districts blocking efforts by the Trump administration to make it more difficult for immigrants who rely on public assistance to obtain legal status.

One judge calling it, quote, "repugnant to the American dream." A bad day in a bad week for the White House. And of course, there's

breaking news as it is on most nights. News tonight that another key Trump administration official heading for the exit, Kevin McAleenan, the acting secretary of homeland security submitted his resignation to the White House.

He is the fourth person to serve in that position for President Trump.

Here with more tonight is CNN's Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, good evening to you. What's behind the latest high-profile departure?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Don, I got to say it's not that surprising to people in the White House who never thought Kevin McAleenan was going to get the personal innocent job. But of course, this resignation is coming after he's been in that acting position for several dozen -- hundreds of days now, in this position, never really had a replacement on the horizon so far in the West Wing.

So that will be interesting to see who it is the president picks next. But when it came down to McAleenan, though at times the president praised him, he was never really someone who gained President Trump's trust.

The president often lashed out at him blaming him for border numbers and of course in turn, Kevin McAleenan didn't like the hard-liners that the president hired to work not only in the Department of Homeland Security, but also he was dealing with people inside the West Wing like Stephen Miller who were really trying to run DHS policy out of the West Wing, not out of the Department of Homeland Security.

An indication his mood had changed had been after that Washington Post interview about 10 days ago where he said he just didn't have control over the policy coming out of the DHS, the tone coming out of DHS.

We're told by one person familiar, Don, Kevin McAleenan didn't realize he was on the record during that interview, an interview that stunned a lot of people for just how blunt the DHS secretary was in it.

LEMON: You mentioned the Washington Post reporting, Kaitlan. The New York Times is reporting tonight that federal prosecutors are investigating whether Rudy Giuliani broke lobbying laws in his dealings in Ukraine.


Is the president at all worried about everything Giuliani has been doing on his behalf?

COLLINS: Yes, he is. And you've seen the president express that not only a little bit publicly but we're also told by sources the president privately has been questioning Rudy Giuliani and his connection to these two men who were arrested recently this week. The news broke yesterday.

And the president in turn has been distancing himself from the lawyer who has essentially been on television defending him for the last two years through it all.

Instead, the president is now questioning whether or not Rudy Giuliani is going to be a liability for him, something that people have been telling the president for weeks now, before all of this happened about his clients being arrested, telling the president they didn't think Rudy Giuliani was the right person to represent him in this impeachment fight that he seems increasingly likely headed for.

The president now seems to be starting to heed that and that was evident with today enough, the president wouldn't even go as far to say that Rudy Giuliani is still his personal attorney even though Giuliani made clear to one of my colleagues that, yes, he still thinks he is.

The fact that he won't be representing the president on Ukraine really tells you all you need to know because it makes clear he's not going to be playing a significant role in this impeachment defense strategy coming out of the White House.

LEMON: Going to be a liability? Maybe a little late for that, Kaitlan. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Will the president's bad week keep getting worse with his personal lawyer under investigation and four more key people to testify next week? John Dean, Mia Love, Max Boot all weigh in next.



LEMON: The loss of a now fourth homeland security chief just underscores what looks to be an administration in constant turmoil even as we see the first cracks in their impeachment strategy.

Lots to talk about. John Dean is here, Mia Love and Max Boot. Good evening to one and all. But before we get to, Max, before we get to Kevin McAleenan, I was thinking about the stories that we've had tonight and this week. Has there been this much scandal -- I can't remember this much scandal in an entire eight-year administration in presidencies in recent history. Am I wrong?

MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: I think you're dead right, Don. This is just stunning. I mean this is not an administration. This is a criminal conspiracy, and it's a particularly inept criminal conspiracy. This is like what would happen if the three stooges were breaking bad. They cannot conceal their crimes, and they just come tumbling out all the time.

I mean, if there's any strategy here -- and it's really hard for me to see any. But if there is one, Trump's strategy seems to be to commit so much impeachable conduct, that the House cannot possibly keep up. I mean, he is just overwhelming as what scandal as you say, just this week alone, more scandals than any administration I can think of in four to eight years.

LEMON: So, then what is the -- is there any -- I don't know. Is there any incentive for anyone to stay there in this administration?

BOOT: I don't think so. I mean, I think people who stay in this administration are being implicated in what is going on. They are becoming accomplices unless they speak out and, you know, it's just horrifying and unbelievable what's happened to the executive branch.

I mean it's been taken over by a mob mentality run by people who are utterly corrupt and crooked and have no regard for the public interest. And I think responsible public servants like former Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch are now speaking out to devastating effect about what's going on.

LEMON: I'm glad you mentioned it because, John, I want to ask you about Ambassador Yovanovitch -- I've been saying her name correctly all week, and now I can't say it -- Yovanovitch testified.

Ambassador Sondland said that through his lawyer, that he is going to testify Wednesday despite guidance not to. I mean it's very interesting he's going to do that. There are four key figures set to testify next week. Why do you think these officials want to speak out?

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it maybe they actually believe they have something that is favorable. There is, of course, that one text message that Sondland sent that said no quid pro quo after talking to the president. Now, that's taking it out of context of course in the full range of exchanges which really occurred.

And I think Sondland, who is something of a Washington rookie, may think he can go in and just handle that committee, and it's going to be a lot tougher than he thinks it's going to be. He's going to be sharply cross-examined while the Republicans will probably try to focus on that, it's going to be much broader than that.

LEMON: Interesting. Mia, I want to bring you in there and talk about some of the stuff because Yovanovitch testified that her removal from Ukraine was part of a concerted campaign that included pressure from the president, and she was told that she did nothing wrong. But it's not an impeachable offense to simply remove an ambassador. I mean what needs to be proven here?

MIA LOVE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, she's obviously -- she couldn't understand what was happening. I mean, at first, she was told that her bosses said she did nothing wrong, and then she was told that the president has lost confidence in her.

So, it's all completely confusing, and of course you get all of this information about the associates of Rudy Giuliani going out there, trying to oust her, trying to get other members of Congress to help in that quest. So, the whole thing is just quite confusing, and it's something that I don't think really bodes well. It doesn't look good. It's not impeachable but it's not --


LEMON: Well, the president wants to distance -- the president wants to distance himself from Rudy Giuliani, who has been one of his most vocal supporters --

LOVE: Yes.

LEMON: -- who is even the main guy to go out and do Sunday shows after the Access Hollywood tape came out. I mean, Mia, do you think people buy Trump trying to put him at arm's length now, saying, you know, not even willing to say he's his attorney now?


LOVE: OK. So, there are a lot of people that may get upset with me for saying this, but I'm going to say it because I think it's true. You have to understand that with the relationships with the president, I believe that they are transactional.

I believe that if you are going to be bad for the president, he is going to get rid of you. I think Rudy Giuliani has been actually bad for the president in this instance. He has done the administration no favors.

Whether the president knew what he was doing or not, there were -- he was sticking his nose in areas where he shouldn't have been.


LOVE: So, I think that he needs to -- I mean at the very least, has to stay away from Rudy Giuliani.

LEMON: Well, John, what is the bigger peril when it comes to Rudy Giuliani, the SDNY investigation or the impeachment inquiry?

DEAN: Well, they could be related. I don't think Mia has anything to be worried about in laying out the reality of that relationship. And the president is going to face that.

He's clearly trying to distance himself from Rudy. No one knows the extent of Rudy's liability. He claims in the New York Times piece that he's done nothing wrong. Of course, that's what he'd say.

But this Foreign Agents Registration Act that is being apparently central to his investigation is something that has gotten new vigor. It's something a lot of people have been investigated for. It's something the Department of Justice is enforcing.

It's a law that Rudy's not really familiar with because it wasn't invoked for many, many years until the Russians started abusing there, brawling around the United States. So, he's got some problems, Don.

LEMON: I got less than 10 second, I'm going to ask you. Should they -- should the Democrats have held these hearings in public? Do you think it's smart to do it so that it doesn't turn into a circus?

BOOT: I mean I think it would be great if they could hold them in the public, but, you know, get the information out there somehow. And you know, just the pattern of corruption is stunning. I mean, it's not just Rudy Giuliani. Remember, the president's previous personal lawyer is already in jail. I mean, the president is severely implicated in this massive, massive corruption, Don.

LEMON: John, Mia, Max, thank you very much. I appreciate your time.

Shepard Smith announcing today that he is leaving Fox News, surprising not just the audience but his own colleagues. What's behind his abrupt departure, next.



LEMON: It may be hard to believe that there was an anchor on Fox News that the president despised. Why? Because he cares about facts and tells the truth. Today that man, Shepard Smith, stepped down as chief news anchor at the network he called home for 23 years.


SHEPARD SMITH, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: So recently I asked the company to allow me to leave Fox News. After requesting that I stay, they obliged. Under our agreement, I won't be reporting elsewhere, at least in the near future. This is my last newscast here.

NEIL CAVUTO, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: Whoa. I'm Neil Cavuto, and like you, I'm a little stunned and a little heartbroken. I don't know what to say. John, I apologize at being a little shell-shocked on this other development here, but take it away, sir.

JOHN ROBERTS, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, FOX NEWS: I've just been trying to compile my thoughts too, Neil.


ROBERTS: I walked out here to do the hit and suddenly got hit by a subway train. Holy mackerel.


LEMON: There was -- there was a longer -- a long pause with Neil Cavuto there before he even could go -- his colleagues were clearly blindsided.

Let's bring in now chief media correspondent Brian Stelter and CNN political commentator Ana Navarro. Good evening to one and all.


LEMON: This is -- so I was when this happened, I was on a plane and literally I was trying to sleep, and my text messages -- I couldn't get to them fast enough. People saying, my God, Shep, Shep, Shep. I was like what? It's unbelievable.

Your tweet, Ana, you said "Shepard Smith is leaving Fox News. I am feeling the same celebratory joy as when a handmaid is able to escape Gilead and live in freedom." You're talking about the Handmaid's tale. I've never seen the show, but NAVARRO: You'll like it.

LEMON: This is --

NAVARRO: It's a good one.

LEMON: Does this really bring --

NAVARRO: By the way, you don't have to watch the show because you're living it. But go ahead.

LEMON: Does this really bring you joy?

NAVARRO: Yes. I mean, it brings me joy. So, I'm a little torn on it. I'm torn on it as far as what it means for balance to Fox and what it means for journalism. Because I think --


LEMON: That their viewers will never hear facts. Rarely.

NAVARRO: -- it is so important to have Shep Smith's voice at Fox News. I'm happy for Shep Smith.


NAVARRO: He's also a human being. He is a very decent human being, and I want him to be happy. So, yes, I did feel like, my god, he's finally free not to be constrained by a network where there is such editorial control and where he is, you know, such the man out where the president is constantly tweeting against him. He's finally free to speak the truth without any reservation, and I want him to be happy.

LEMON: Yes. Well, speaking of that, the president -- President Trump assumes that he left because of bad ratings. I mean, look, the man has been there for 23 years. He's a fixture, right. He is the chief anchor over there. Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you or your administration pressure Fox News to get rid of Shepard Smith?

TRUMP: No. I don't know. Is he leaving?


TRUMP: That's a shame.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But why did Bill Barr meet with Robert Murdoch the other day?

TRUMP: That I don't know. Wait. Did I hear Shepard Smith is leaving? Is he leaving because of bad ratings? Tell me. I don't know. He had terrible ratings. Is he leaving because of his ratings?

I mean if he's leaving, I assume he's leaving because he had bad ratings.



TRUMP: He had the worst ratings on Fox, so there's a reason. Why is Shepard Smith leaving?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to ask him, Mr. President.


TRUMP: Well, I wish him well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, the attorney general, the attorney general --

TRUMP: I wish -- I wish Shepard Smith well.



TRUMP: Well, I wish him well.


TRUMP: I wish -- I wish Shepard Smith well.


LEMON: Brian, you have been doing a lot of reporting on this. What's the real reason? There was report last week that there were tensions between Shepard Smith and Tucker Carlson and the network reportedly siding with Tucker, but then they -- they're saying no. They're pushing back on that.

STELTER: Yes, this was not about low ratings, but it was about the tensions with Tucker Carlson and other figures at Fox. Shepard Smith simply couldn't take it anymore. He felt squeezed by these opinion hosts who were spewing propaganda at other hours of the day. He viewed his show as a counterweight trying to get the facts out there.

But it just became too much over time. This is a real loss for Fox, for Fox staffers, for the journalists there who are blowing up my phone because they're really devastated by this. They're troubled by the loss of one of the true news anchors at the network. I think it's a sign of our disturbing times. You know, it's not like Shepard Smith changed. The network changed and the country around him changed. We've been fractured into different pieces and there's not as much room anymore for someone like him who is a truth teller.

NAVARRO: And I think, yes, sometimes you do things in life that are not about money, that are not about what's best for your career, but it's about what's best for your heart and for your soul. It's about integrity. It's about principles. And I admire that. He is walking away from a very hefty salary if reports are true, and I think he's doing it for all the right reasons.

You know, he is standing up for what he believes and he is saying, look, you know what? Self-care matters and, you know, being consistent, be in a place that is consistent with my principles and what I believe matters. Damn, you just have to admire that. You know, in 2019, I mean think about it.

LEMON: He was worth every bit of what they were paying him. What's next for him? I just have 20 seconds here.

STELTER: He has a non-compete. He is not going to be on TV anytime soon, but his spokesman says he's not retiring. That tells me he does want to be back in the public eye someday. I just think for now it's sad to see how the echo chambers that we're all living in have become a little more closed up today, because he won't be on Fox.

NAVARRO: Look, NBC paid Megyn Kelly $23 million and she was a failure. Give Shep Smith a chance. He's a hell more likable and true and authentic.

LEMON: Yes. A great guy. The consummate professional. An amazing journalist. Shep, we wish you the very best. And I'm going to say congratulations to you. Enjoy your life with you and your partner, your dog, and just enjoy it. We're really proud of you.

The former ambassador to Ukraine giving devastating testimony behind closed doors today, and I'm going to get the details from someone who questioned her. Congressman Denny Heck is next.



LEMON: Former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, who was removed from her post by President Trump in May giving nearly 10 hours of closed door testimony to House investigators. The career foreign service officer who worked under both Democratic and Republican administrations appeared in defiance of White House and State Department direction not to appear.

In her opening statement, Yovanovitch warned the State was being attacked and hollowed out from within and urged Congress to take action to stop it. Let's discuss now. Congressman Denny Heck is here, who serves on the House Intel Committee and heard her testimony. Congressman, thank you. I got to ask you, Yovanovitch said that Rudy Giuliani played a significant role in her firing. Why does she think he wanted her out?

HECK: So, Don, this was a deposition, and as such we're not going to comment or reveal the specifics of anything that the witness testified to --

LEMON: Understood. Anything you can tell us, though, we'd appreciate it.

HECK: I would tell you that I'm frankly wondering, without trying to be too snarky, is Michael Cohen is keeping a bunk warm for Rudy Giuliani. Look, the two men that were indicted, that were associates of Rudy Giuliani, engaged in behavior that they're now being charged with. It is conspiracy to engage in illegal activity is itself subject to criminal liability.

And you have to wonder, given their close relationship -- we don't know that yet. We do know that they had purchased one-way tickets to Geneva, I think it was. And on the day that they departed, they had lunch with Rudy Giuliani, with whom they had been associated over a period of time.


HECK: So you just have to wonder where this is going for the former mayor of New York.

LEMON: I've got to ask you, then. Did you learn anything new today, -- I think you can answer this -- anything new that advances the impeachment investigation?

HECK: Well, yes, of course. But, you know, the most important thing -- and I think the significant takeaway for the conversation, the 10- hour conversation we had today -- is that Ambassador Yovanovitch is a woman who literally oozes integrity. All one has to do is read the opening statement that she submitted to us and is now available through open sources and can be found online.

This is a woman who has dedicated 33 years of her life to the Foreign Service, always with progressive responsibility, because of the high regard in which she was held. This is a person who is a true patriot, who loves her country, who loves the role that diplomacy can play in helping keep America prosperous and secure.

LEMON: Yes. Next week you're expecting to hear from Fiona Hill, George Kent, Ambassador Gordon Sondland, and Ulrich Brechbuhl. Will all of those depositions be behind closed doors and what goes in to deciding that?

HECK: So, I think the rules that we're operating now for depositions is that they are in closed, albeit unclassified sessions. And I'm not quite sure that all of the people to whom you referred, Don, will actually be deposed, per se, but they have had documents subpoenaed from them. And whether or not they turn them over remains to be seen.


I'm fairly optimistic that Fiona Hill will come forward. As a former staff member to the National Security Council, and I'm personally looking forward to that conversation very much, because of her particular expertise with respect to Russia and the Middle East.

LEMON: Yes. You know, I'd like you to weigh in on the comment from the president. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Now, with that being said, we are sending troops and other

things to the Middle East to help Saudi Arabia, but are you ready? Saudi Arabia, at my request, has agreed to pay us for everything we're doing. That is a first, but Saudi Arabia and other countries too now, but Saudi Arabia has agreed to pay us for everything we're doing to help them, and we appreciate that.


LEMON: A foreign nation is paying for American troops to protect their interests. Does that sound right to you?

HECK: It sounds to me like the president for the first time in our nation's history is attempting to convert our armed forces into mercenaries and then bragging about it. Don, I thought his announcement about sending the nearly 3,000 troops to Saudi Arabia was chock-full of ironies.

Irony number one, this is being done to presumably deter increased bad behavior on the part of Iran. Iran has been engaged in increased bad behavior, but they have been so, irony number one, as a consequence of America pulling out of the Iran agreement against the advice of all the other parties to that agreement, against all western civilized nations as a matter of fact.

Irony number two, this announcement comes almost a year to the day after the murder of the American-based journalist Khashoggi, for which every indication is that the crown prince of Saudi Arabia ordered his murder, his slaughter, his vicious slaughter. And the fact is that that is absolutely contrary to basic American values.

And irony number three, it comes about a week -- less than a week after the president decided to unlock the door and open the door to allow Turkey to invade northern Syria as we turn our back on our oldest ally in the region, the Kurds, in our fight against ISIS.

Now, the Kurds can't afford maybe to cough up massive amounts of money for military action, but you know what they provided instead? An estimate of about 10,000 of their lives in their shoulder-to-shoulder fight with us against ISIS.

LEMON: And you can't put a price on that. Thank you, Congressman. I appreciate your time. We'll see you soon.

HECK: No. Thank you.

LEMON: Well, she's back. My friend Laura Coates is here now. She is hosting a special hour tonight, the White House in crisis, the impeachment inquiry, coming up right after this show at 11:00. You got your work cut out for you. It's a crazy week. There have been so many developments in just even the last few hours, Laura.

LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST: I mean, if they -- Don, we're going to drill down tonight on Rudy Giuliani. He is the president's personal attorney, or is he, now under investigation in connection with these two guys. You've got Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, associates who were arrested on campaign finance charges just a few hours after having lunch with Rudy Giuliani.

And he is also been implicated now in the scheme to get the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine fired. And we've all seen those wild-eyed interviews citing all the conspiracy theories. Well, tonight we're going to talk to Andrew Kurtzman, who was a reporter who covered Giuliani at city hall for a decade, including that morning of 9/11 when Giuliani became that international symbol for asking the question. What happened to that Rudy? America's mayor, the tough guy who took on the mobs. We'll get the inside word.

LEMON: Kurtzman, a longtime New York City reporter, has great sources and you're right, covered Giuliani for a long time. We will all be watching. We'll see you Laura, in just a couple of minutes, Laura.

Why is the president distancing himself from one of his biggest defenders? We're going to dig into what's going on between President Trump and Rudy Giuliani. That is next.



LEMON: The president's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, could be in serious trouble. The New York Times reporting tonight that federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York, the office Giuliani ran himself decades ago, are looking into whether he broke lobbying rules in his dealings in Ukraine. The president is already distancing himself from the man who has been at the center of this Ukraine scandal from the start.

Today not even confirming if Giuliani is still his lawyer. So here to give us some legal perspective, Michael Isikoff is the co-author of Russian roulette, the inside story of Putin's war on America and the election of Donald Trump. Elie Honig, here as well. Gentlemen, good evening.

Elie, I want to start with you. So, we have seen this pattern before. Trump won't say if Giuliani is still his personal attorney and whether he'll be indicted, but Trump had this to say. Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you concerned that Rudy Giuliani could be indicted in all of this?

TRUMP: Well, I hope not. Again, I don't know how he knows these people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're his clients.

TRUMP: What?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're his clients.

TRUMP: OK. Well, then they're clients. I mean he's got a lot of clients. So I just don't know. I haven't spoken to Rudy about it. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Now, here's what he said about Michael Cohen last year.



TRUMP: Michael is somebody --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, how much of your legal work was handled by Michael Cohen?

TRUMP: Well, as a percentage of my overall legal work, a tiny, tiny little fraction, but Michael would represent me and represent me on some things.


LEMON: Is Rudy getting tossed under Air Force One, under the bus?


ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thrown under Air Force One. I like that. Let the distancing begin. We've seen this dance before from Donald Trump with Michael Cohen, and he seems to be taking the first step down that road now with Rudy Giuliani. I mean, this is a serious situation. And it's kind of surreal for me as a Southern District to see Rudy Giuliani who was in charge of the office decade before I was there, but was a respected figure now under investigation by the Southern District. And Rudy ought to know that anybody -- you do not poke the Southern District. And if you do, you'll going to get in trouble. And he should know, an investigation by the Southern District is all encompassing. He is in trouble here.

LEMON: Michael, even if the president wants to throw Giuliani over board, can the president ever separate himself from everything Rudy did in Ukraine on his behalf?

MICHAEL ISIKOFF, CHIEF INVESTIGATION CORRESPONDENT, YAHOO NEWS: Well, you know, it's clear that Rudy was acting in president's interest all along and that you know, this entire Ukraine mess stems from Rudy Giuliani's meddling in this. Yes, there's so many interesting questions that we don't know. These two guys, his clients who were arrested and indicted yesterday.

How much of -- how much of Rudy's travels and work on this were they paying for? And if so, was this a way for these guys who just been charged with illegal campaign contributions basically footing the bill for the president's legal expenses. I think that to me is a central issue that the Southern District is likely to be looking at.

LEMON: Interesting. Listen, Michael, the FBI and prosecutors in Manhattan are examining Giuliani's involvement with the campaign finance violations and as usual, Giuliani is trying to distant -- to distract. And he is drawing you into it, right? ISIKOFF: Yes, he has. He tweeted yesterday after these charges were

filed that the real story is that the Ukrainians had interfere in the 2016 election not the Russians. And to back that up, he posted a -- an e-mail, tweeted an e-mail that was leaked that the Russians gave to WikiLeaks, that the WikiLeaks put out there in which a Democratic National Committee staffer says she was working with Michael Isikoff and connecting him to the Ukrainians.

LEMON: And I read that, I just think -- what?

ISIKOFF: Well, yes, this woman was Ali (inaudible), was somebody I was talking to because she had information about Paul Manafort and she connected me to some Ukrainian journalists. Now, I was interested in talking to them. There was a reception in Washington. I went, I talked to them about the work they had done on this. The idea that this somehow equates with the Russians hacking the DNC.

LEMON: We are running out of time, Michael.

ISIKOFF: Stealing thousands of documents and giving those to WikiLeaks as part of an operation to disrupt our election is kind of ludicrous.

LEMON: Well, a lot of what he's been saying is, I mean, ludicrous all along, what's your final thought?

HONIG: I want to represent Michael for stalling.


Listen, all you need to know about this guys, Ukrainians and (INAUDIBLE), the name of the company they used to pay him was called fraud guarantee. You need to rethink that branding.

LEMON: Gentlemen, thank you. I appreciate it. We will be right back.

ISIKOFF: Sure though.



LEMON: Take this. President Trump Minneapolis rally last night happened in the state with the most people of Somalians ancestry in America. So, naturally, he celebrated that diversity in his own way.


TRUMP: For many years leaders in Washington brought large numbers of refugees to your state from Somalia. Without considering the impact on schools and communities and taxpayers. You should be able to decide what is best for your own city and for your own neighborhood.


LEMON: Your cities, your neighborhoods. Not our cities, our neighborhoods. Us and them. Us versus them. That is what it is. And that particular neighborhood happens to be represented in the House by a Somalia immigrant, Ilhan Omar. You see where I'm going. Ilhan Omar, is one of the four Congresswoman of color who the president loves to bash. And bash he did, yet again, last night.


TRUMP: How do you have such a person representing you in Minnesota? I'm very angry at you people right now. She is a disgrace to our country.


LEMON: If all this sounds like the same old Trump play book. An insightful P.R. analysis reported by Aisha Roscoe shows a trend in the president's Twitter rants this past summer. With his focus on non- white lawmakers. He attacked the Congresswoman of color nearly 20 times as a group over three months. That's more than his gone after his campaign rivals Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren in his entire presidency.

He went after Omar alone, nearly 30 times. The president also singled out Congressman and Oversight -- House Oversight Chairman Elijah Cummings this summer. You remember he slammed Cummings mostly black district, which includes parts of --part of Baltimore, as rat and rodent infested.