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Cuomo Prime Time

Mulvaney Backpedals Ukraine Remarks, Denies Quid Pro Quo; Sondland: Trump Directed Diplomats To Work With Giuliani; Remembering Representative And Oversight Chairman Elijah Cummings. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired October 17, 2019 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

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MICK MULVANEY, ACTING WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF, DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET: President has pretty much made it very clear, since he's got here, that he doesn't profit from being here. He has no interest in profit from being here.

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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Oh, yes, yes. That's very clear. President has made the exact opposite clear.

U.S. troops somehow ended up staying at a Scottish hotel, somehow Vice - Vice President Mike Pence, needed to stay at a Trump Hotel in Ireland, despite his official business being nearly 200 miles away.

But, you know, it's - he had to stay there. And, of course, there's, you know, Fox News by the sea, otherwise known as Mar-a-Lago, which doubled its initiation fee to $200,000, after Mr. Trump was elected.

So, regardless of what Mick Mulvaney says about the President's company doing the G7 at cost, the cost is set by the Trump Organization. The President owns the Trump Organization, and that doesn't change, whether he's in a villa, a gorgeous, gorgeous bungalow, on The Ridiculist.

That's it for us. The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: Very well done! Anderson, thank you. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.

Another crazy day, but one of heavy consequence. The White House fully admits to a Ukraine quid pro quo. Then, tries to take it back, and blame us, for getting it wrong.

Well guess what? It's all on tape. I have it. You listen for yourself. You see who's lying.

And also, which key cabinet figure in this Ukraine mess is now resigning? That means he can testify. We have a top impeachment investigator who was listening closely, and

is here to talk next moves, as we break down where impeachment and the prosecution of this President's lawyer stand tonight.

What do you say? Let's get after it.

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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

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CUOMO: Got to say it. Only in the age of Trump, the President sent his Acting Chief of Staff to take on the media, and he had a simple message. "Yes, we held up aid to Ukraine, but we did it so they would investigate the DNC and 2016 election interference, so it was a good quid pro quo."

Listen.

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MULVANEY: Did he also mention to me in past that the - the - the - the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely! No question about that. But that's it. And that's why we held up the money.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But to be clear, what you just described is a quid pro quo. It is, "Funding will not flow unless the investigation into the - into the Democratic server happened as well."

MULVANEY: We do - we do that all the time with foreign policy.

And I have news for everybody. Get over it. There's going to be political influence in foreign policy.

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CUOMO: No, no, no. It's not about political influence in foreign policy. It's about the political influence used for personal gain in foreign policy.

By the way, the DNC server gambit, it may be a debunked conspiracy theory, but it wasn't a bad cover story for the President, because it made his action in Ukraine about something other than wanting to go after Biden.

But that "Gotcha" about the quid pro quo obviously got stuck in his head. Again, only in the age of Trump, Mick Mulvaney tried to pretend he never said what you just heard him say.

"Once again the media has decided to misconstrue my comments to advance a biased and political witch-hunt against President Trump. Let me be clear. There was absolutely no quid pro quo between Ukrainian military aid and any investigation into the 2016 election. There never was any condition on the flow of the aid related to the matter of the DNC server." That's a lot of words. Let's go back to the few that answer the question.

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MULVANEY: Did he also mention to me in past that the - the - the - the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely! No question about that. But that's it. And that's why we held up the money.

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CUOMO: "Absolutely, no question about it. And that's why we held up the money."

Listen, doublespeak worked well for Orwell. It doesn't work in reality. This clumsy cover has Trump's fingerprints all over it, "Just lie, deny, then point to the media, and cry."

But you heard the proof. And today, we got more proof of what this President was up to from another diplomat, who's loyal to Trump, but gave damning testimony about the President's intentions.

Let's bring in someone who heard from Ambassador Sondland today, heard exactly what Mulvaney said.

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TEXT: ONE ON ONE.

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CUOMO: House Oversight Committee Member, Jamie Raskin. Good to have you on the show. You and I lost a friend today.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): Thank you, Chris.

CUOMO: And America lost a legend. And Elijah Cummings meant a lot of things to a lot of people. And I hope that now, his passing is a reminder to people about what passion of purpose is, and what brave leadership is.

He was gone too soon, no question about it, Jamie. But hopefully, his legacy will be a lesson to all of us.

RASKIN: Well thank you for that. I mean it's - it's hard times, and they just got a little bit harder with the loss of our beloved Elijah Cummings.

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But he has been a role model to everybody in Maryland, and everybody on the Oversight Committee, and really everyone in Congress, who listened to him, because he's shown how you fight with every fiber of your being for democracy, and for the Constitution, without losing your humanity, without losing your decency, and without giving up on anybody. And he really showed us that is extreme and as partisan as the Republicans get to keep our hearts and our minds open that they might be able to find some common ground with us. So, it's a very sad day here in Maryland.

But, you know, in the Jewish faith that we say that the memory of the righteous is a blessing. And every time we remember Elijah Cummings, which is going to be frequently, through every day, it will be a blessing to us, and we will hang on very tight to his extraordinary vision, and his great example.

CUOMO: I can hear Elijah in my head, saying, "Come on, Cuomo. Don't take up my time with this Mulvaney. You know what that is. You know - you know that's BS. You know what they're trying to do. It's a cover story. Let me tell you what happened today."

He had no tolerance and no patience for things that were obvious and that were distractions of a point, so let's honor his memory.

You were in Session today. You got to hear testimony from a friendly of this President. He was the hotelier, Ambassador Sondland. He was gifted an Ambassadorship.

What did he say today that was instructed to you?

RASKIN: Well, of course, we cannot relay the details of his testimony. And I know everybody loves a good mystery, Chris, but this is hardly an Agatha Christie novel, at this point.

We've got Mulvaney, the White House Chief of Staff, coming out, and admitting to the crime.

Now, I think he thought that committing another crime was an alibi for this crime, but it's just as unconstitutional to shake down a foreign government, for political reasons related to the 2016 election, as it is relating to the 2020 election.

And so, the smoking guns are just piling up, at this point. It all started with the contemporaneous telephone memorandum they gave us, in which we basically had everything we needed, at this point.

And now, we're just getting a surplus of evidence, filling in the picture. We know exactly what they were up to. They shook down a foreign government, a vulnerable ally, in order to get political dirt, or in order to support a deranged conspiracy theory. None of that is within their constitutional powers. And all of it is

an assault on the national security and the Constitution of the United States.

CUOMO: The Biden part though is obviously a more flagrant foul. And in Mr. Sondland's opening statement that was put out today, he seemed to suggest that at the time - I think he has a problem with this testimony, by the way.

But that at the time that he was getting ready for that phone call, and after, he didn't really know. But much later, he learned about the interest in Burisma and Mr. Biden.

Now, those texts that Mr. Volker put out, it seems like Mr. Sondland knows very well what the deliverable is, and that the deliverable is about Biden, Burisma, and also the DNC. And Giuliani, they believed, wanted as much in the statement.

Is that all accurate to you?

RASKIN: Well, again, I don't want to speak to particulars. But let's just say there's two basic categories of witnesses we've heard from.

One are the loyal public servants, who are real Foreign Service professionals, who were outraged and appalled by this shadow foreign policy, conducting political campaigns, and mixing up private agendas with public agendas.

And then, you've got the people on the other side, who are either in hiding and are trying not to testify, or they are rapidly trying to distance themselves from the whole Trump-Giuliani plot.

CUOMO: Yes. It's true. You had a cabinet member--

RASKIN: But it does seem that there's some--

CUOMO: --you had - you had Rick Perry say today that he's stepping down, which now obviously makes him much more available for testimony. Now, we had heard that he was going to step down last week. He denied it. Today, he confirmed it. Is that of interest to you?

RASKIN: Well it - it gives me the impression that there are a lot of people who are trying to get off of a rapidly sinking ship.

And if this is where we are today, where we've had dramatic shifts in public opinion, the majority of Americans favor not just an impeachment inquiry, but according to Fox News, impeachment and removal of the President. Where will we be in two weeks as the evidence really becomes an airtight case?

Meantime, the President continues to act in completely lawless ways. The idea that they are going to host the G7 Summit at the Trump--

CUOMO: He says it's the perfect place. Mick Mulvaney said that they looked at--

RASKIN: Well--

CUOMO: --all these different places and states and that literally it's like the place was built to host. I can't believe it's never been used before.

RASKIN: Well the people who were posting online about the bedbugs and the flying cockroaches may beg to differ. But even if it were the perfect place, which of course it isn't, it would be completely and totally unconstitutional.

It's a violation of the domestic emoluments clause, and the foreign emoluments clause.

CUOMO: But he doesn't benefit.

RASKIN: They're raking in money.

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CUOMO: Mulvaney says the President has been clear.

RASKIN: No. Although--

CUOMO: He'll never benefit.

RASKIN: That's not what he said. He said he - there will be no profits there, which somehow is a distinction they think it makes a difference, which it doesn't, because the Constitution says he cannot accept any payments at all, regardless of whether its profits or not.

And it's not up to him. He's got to come to Congress to ask our consent to take money from foreign governments.

And, by the way, he can't take any money from the taxpayers, except for his salary, which he said he's not going to take. That's the only thing he's allowed to take.

He can't take millions of dollars from the Secret Service, and from the State Department, and the Defense Department, and White House writing checks for his hotels and resorts.

They've spent one-third of their days at Trump hotels or resorts or properties around the world. They're spending federal government money on it. And they're collecting money from foreign governments and all of it is totally lawless and unconstitutional.

And one last point I'd like to make, Chris, because I'm the Congressman for Thurmont, Maryland, where Camp David is.

And Mulvaney engaged in a series of slurs against Camp David today where the G7 met back in 2012 when President Obama was President. He said people thought that it was terrible and was appalling.

Nobody ever said that before. Who is he quoting when he quotes these anonymous people? Go to beautiful Thurmont, Maryland, and you will find the perfect place to bring together Democratic Nations of the world.

And we should be the leaders of the Democratic Nations rather than fraternizing with every dictator and despot and strongmen on earth. That is Donald Trump's real team. Save those people for the Doral National Resort.

And when you've got real democracies, bring them up to Thurmont, Maryland, and let them stay at Camp David. It's beautiful, it's rustic, and it's charming beyond measure, and Mayor John Kinnaird will give you a tour of the whole city. CUOMO: Well Congressman Jamie Raskin, thank you very much for your remembrance of Elijah Cummings, from your perspective on where this is headed. We look forward very much to the case that you can put together for the American people. Thank you for joining us tonight. I'm sorry for your loss.

RASKIN: You bet.

CUOMO: All right.

Now, let's get an FBI perspective on what matters investigatively, right? We're always balancing this. Impeachment, that's political. What's going on with Rudy Giuliani? That's legal. So, we have to entertain them both.

What is learned from today from Mulvaney, from Sondland, and from what you're just hearing from the Congressman?

McCabe and Baker, next.

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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.

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CUOMO: Shortly after Mick Mulvaney's briefing, admitting a White House quid pro quo, a source told CNN, the Trump legal team was "Stunned." Now, Mulvaney's trying to deny what he said, blaming the press. Is this White House damage control incurring more damage?

Andrew McCabe, Jim Baker, join us now. Thank you fellas.

Jim Baker, legal significance of the admission, assuming it stands as fact that it was about the DNC server. That was the quid pro quo.

JIM BAKER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FBI GENERAL COUNSEL, DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL SECURITY & CYBERSECURITY, R STREET INSTITUTE: It's further evidence of the President's violation, in my opinion, of his constitutional responsibilities. And he just didn't do what he was supposed to do.

He is not living up to his oath of office because he is trying - he is abusing his constitutional power to try to stay in office. And the evidence that he--

CUOMO: I hear you that on Biden.

BAKER: What--

CUOMO: I hear you that on - that on Biden that's a clear case. But why couldn't they argue on this one? This is why I actually like the argument when they - when Rudy first made it a few weeks ago.

I know Andrew doesn't like it, but I got to make the argument, which is "Look, corruption is legit. You guys, also you care about 2016 interference. This was part of 2016 interference. I know a lot of people think it's a conspiracy theory. I don't. So, I want them to look into it because I think they were out to get me in 2016, and I'm not going to give money to a country that does that kind of corruption."

Is that a good faith argument against corruption?

BAKER: I don't know. But I'm not buying that. Because the - the - the President, for a long time, has been - has - has been concerned about his legitimacy, right? The notion that the Russians helped him infuriates him.

And so, what he wants to do is to try to cast a doubt about that claim, and to go into the 2020 election, and say "No. I won 2016 legitimately, and nobody should have any a doubt that I should be re- elected because my first election was - was, you know, perfect and great," you know, the kinds of terms that he uses.

And so, I - I'm not buying that. I think it is intended to bolster his efforts to win re-election in 2020.

CUOMO: All right--

ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. And - and, Chris?

CUOMO: Go ahead, Andrew, please.

MCCABE: Yes, Chris, let's be clear. There was no conspiracy. There was no involvement of Ukraine in the - meddling in the 2016 election. We know this. Every Intelligence agency in this country has agreed with that.

The President's own people, to include Tom Bossert, his former Deputy National Security Adviser, has been forcefully, publicly saying this was a - a myth that they tried to punch through.

The Administration's focus on it is nothing more than an effort to bolster the President's, as Jim said, legitimacy, one of his conspiracy theories that he can take into the 2020 election, to make himself a stronger candidate. It is absolutely no different than his attempt to investigate and dredge up dirt on the Bidens. It's the same thing.

CUOMO: What else, Andrew, would they need in Congress to make a more compelling case here than they have now? They brought in Sondland today, another friendly of Trump, right?

He was a big donor to him. He got gifted the Ambassadorship to the EU. They brought him in to help with Ukraine. He was inimical to the sitting Ambassador there.

Today, we understand his testimony played to the effect that "Listen, the Biden thing, yes, yes, I learned about that, but much later." Now, I don't know that that's true.

[21:20:00]

But now, here's another layer of somebody, who's in those texts, Andrew, saying "Yes, this was about Biden for the President and Giuliani. And yes, I was told I had to work with Giuliani."

MCCABE: Well it hurts the President on a number of levels. It further reinforces this idea that Rudy Giuliani was the architect of this entire scheme. Sondland admits that today, allegedly, in - in his testimony.

Secondly, I would say it's really hard to reconcile what Sondland apparently said to the Committee today about not knowing about the Bidens and not knowing there was a Biden connection to Burisma.

When you look at those text messages, you have the Acting Ambassador to Ukraine putting it right in his face, and Sondland twice reacting defensively, saying "Call me" or "Stop texting" or putting out what is obviously a pre - a kind of a specious defense about no quid pro quo.

So, I think that's a tough line for Sondland to hold.

CUOMO: Quickly, Jim, you know, Rudy keeps saying "It's OK. I was working for the President. I was just doing it pro bono." Aren't there rules about what a public official can accept as pro bono legal services?

And even though I just heard a very clever argument that someone said, "Well if you - you could assume that Rudy Giuliani's legal advice is worth zero," but let's say it isn't worth zero, and it's worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, that's well above any maximum allowance. How does that figure into it?

BAKER: There are a number of statutes that Mr. Giuliani needs to worry about, in terms of whether he violated them. Among them is something called the Antideficiency Act, which makes it a crime, it's a federal crime for government employees to accept - to accept volunteer services from a person.

The - the - you cannot accept and - and - and spend monies in a way that is inconsistent with what Congress has articulated. And you can't accept volunteer services. And the federal employees would be committing a crime.

And Mr. Giuliani may have been involved in a conspiracy to violate that statute. I - I just don't know. He's also got exposure, as we talked about before with the Foreign Agents Registration Act, and also with the Federal Election law. So, he's got a lot of exposure.

And, you know, I don't know. It's so confusing in terms of trying to figure out exactly what he was doing, who was paying him, who was supporting him, who was his - his principal giving him direction?

Was it a foreigner? Was it the President? It's all a big mess. And - and it must be investigated, I think, by the U.S. Attorney's Office, and also the - the FBI. This - this cries out for a deeper criminal investigation.

CUOMO: All right, we got to jump fellas.

MCCABE: Yes.

CUOMO: Thank you very much. Certainly to be continued, appreciate it.

All right, we may be getting some new intelligence on the Giuliani counterintelligence investigation.

Remember, you got Criminal Investigation, counterintelligence. We have someone who was questioned by FBI agents on the case. What does he know? And what did he tell them? And what questions does he believe needs to be asked? Next.

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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.

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CUOMO: Now, remember, the FBI, OK, which falls under the Trump Administration-run DOJ, in the form of Bill Barr, thought enough of the questions and the concerns to open two investigations into Rudy Giuliani that we know about, criminal and counterintelligence.

One person, we know they've been talking to, is Kenneth McCallion. Now, he just so happens to be the Author of a new book "Treason & Betrayal: The Rise and Fall of Individual-1."

Counselor, welcome to PRIME TIME. Thank you.

KENNETH MCCALLION, ATTORNEY QUESTIONED IN GIULIANI INVESTIGATION, AUTHOR, "TREASON & BETRAYAL: THE RISE AND FALL OF INDIVIDUAL-1": Thank you very much, Chris.

CUOMO: So, in TV, they don't like to talk about their competition. I'm not one of them.

Rachel Maddow had a very interesting interview with you last night, heavily focused on how you know the state of play in Ukraine. You were familiar with the tactics and interests of the two men who were indicted as associates of Mr. Giuliani, Parnas and Furman.

Now, you've said something interesting last night that what they used to be into, changed, and they, all the sudden, became interested in politics. When and why did you know that?

MCCALLION: Well going back to 2015-2016, as part of an investigation I had, civil racketeering into activities by the Trump Organization, I looked into, and came into information that Parnas and Furman, down in Sunny Isles, Florida, and the Boca Raton area, had been steering wealthy Ukrainians, Russian, former Soviet people, to the Trump Organization with the sales technique that this was a good way to money launder, by buying condominiums, holding them for a couple of years, and then selling them.

So, I - we conveyed that information to the FBI at that time. And it became part of, we believe, a money-laundering, really, investigation by the FBI, including a money-laundering investigation.

CUOMO: And what was your role? Why were you informing on these individuals to the FBI?

MCCALLION: Well starting in 2013 and '14, I represented Yulia Tymoshenko, and various jailed political leaders, when the pro-Russian President Yanukovych was in office, and unfairly and improperly made criminal accusations against them, and jailed them.

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In response, Paul Manafort, for example, was behind a lot of the activities. We started collecting information on money laundering.

CUOMO: And that's how you got the connection to them?

MCCALLION: Exactly.

CUOMO: Now, the avenue of civil RICO, I don't want to get too in the weeds for people.

But the idea of what exposure Mr. Giuliani has, and by extension, maybe the President, we keep talking about just these two specific interests of going after the DNC to the extent that that was a real thing, and going after Biden.

Civil RICO, you believe, is still part of the equation here. Why?

MCCALLION: Oh, absolutely. The racketeering statutes are very powerful.

And you have to really look at Giuliani, Parnas, Furman, and the rest of the three amigos etcetera, really as a racketeering enterprise, at this point, who are attempting to really extort from a country that needed our foreign aid information, and - and a bogus investigation, in return, they wanted, in writing, a promise before the money would be released for military aid, a promise by the Ukrainian government that they would conduct this bogus investigation that--

CUOMO: Why is that civil RICO?

MCCALLION: Well it's certainly extortion.

There was money laundering involved, money from suspicious sources, to Parnas, Furman, and again, there's investigation of Giuliani as well. So, you have really any corrupt practices, which happen over a period of time, by an organization, a racketeering group, a racketeering enterprise.

CUOMO: So Rudy says "I don't know anything about what McCallion is talking about. These guys said that they could get me information on Biden. They knew the players in Ukraine. It's the end of my involvement."

"Oh, but they paid you." "I had nothing to do with anything. It had to do with something else." "Oh but the amount, $500,000, echoed an amount that they had had come into their accounts from suspicious sources." "I didn't know anything about where the money came from."

MCCALLION: Well certainly time will tell. And there's a serious investigation by the Southern District and FBI into both Parnas, Furman's finances. Most--

CUOMO: You think that leads to Russia?

MCCALLION: Well there were millions of dollars going through their bank accounts. There were red lights going off in the banks. The banks informed the Treasury Department of this suspicious activity.

So certainly, the Treasury Department and the Administration has known about this over the last year or two, and did nothing. Now that the whistleblower has come forward, the investigation, really, by the FBI has intensified, and the Southern District and it's spread to an examination of Mr. Giuliani's finances.

CUOMO: Where we are right now, give me one key question that has to be answered.

MCCALLION: Well the question is who really was behind this? Was it Dmytro Firtash in Vienna? Were there Russian information sources and Russian oligarchs who were financing this?

All of a sudden, there were millions of dollars flowing into Parnas', Furman's accounts. Mr. Giuliani had literally millions coming into his account and his firm's account, supposedly for work in Ukraine.

But where did this money come from? What were the sources? That is really the - follow the money investigation is what I believe the Southern District and the FBI is looking at, at this point.

CUOMO: Mr. McCallion, please, may I enlist your efforts in helping us understand this, as we learn more information about how it fits into the legal framework that's necessary for investigators?

MCCALLION: Well absolutely, and I appreciate the opportunity.

CUOMO: Thank you very much.

MCCALLION: Thank you very much.

CUOMO: To be continued.

All right, so tonight, the President is hailing Turkey. I know this is another aspect of this situation. He's saying, "Yay! I got a ceasefire." Turkey says it's not a ceasefire at all, what's going on in Syria.

Is the President just doing what he does best, which is ignore reality in the interest of himself, by declaring victory? What is actually happening in Syria? What needs to happen in Syria?

One of his chief defenders takes on the case next. Good to see you, Rick.

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CUOMO: OK. Mick Mulvaney now wants you to believe that the Congressionally-approved aid for Ukraine was only withheld to dig into a debunked conspiracy theory.

But actually, he doesn't want you to believe that because he took it back because he happened to have let it fall into the understanding of a quid pro quo. But he did say it, and we played it for you.

The bigger problem is the text messages, and the testimony, and Trump's own words add another layer, which is that Biden was a give, a deliverable, something they wanted.

Rick Santorum knows a thing or two about trying to remove a President.

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(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: Rick, it is good to have you back on this show.

RICK SANTORUM, FORMER U.S. SENATE MEMBER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you. It's good to be back.

CUOMO: What - what do you think happened today? You think Mick said this. He went back to the White House. The President went crazy, and said, "I don't care what you do. Just deny it, get out of it."

SANTORUM: Yes, look, I mean in - in defense of Mick, I think he was using - again, and I - and I don't - I'm trying to - I'm trying to view this in the best light, which--

CUOMO: For him.

SANTORUM: For him, yes. I mean I think--

CUOMO: Go ahead.

SANTORUM: --he was talking about corruption, and the need for - for - for Ukraine to clean it up.

And I think he gave, as an example, the - the, you know, the - the suspicion that that Ukraine was involved, you know, with the 2016 election, and - and - and - and - and Biden.

And so, that - I don't think he was saying it was a quid pro - I think he was using it as these are the kinds of kind of corruption things that we were concerned about. But, again, he was unwise to bring it up.

I think he should have just left it at "We were concerned about corruption, and we're not going to give," as he said, "We're not going to give money to a - to an organization, to a country, that's going to, you know, pay off people, instead of doing things legitimately with it."

He used a very poor example. And I think he had to backtrack on the example.

CUOMO: All right, I take your argument just for the audience. Let's just play you this little piece again, just so you can understand, not you, Rick, the context for the audience--

SANTORUM: Yes.

[21:40:00]

CUOMO: --of what he said.

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MULVANEY: Did he also mention to me in past that the - the - the - the corruption related to the DNC server? Absolutely! No question about that. But that's it. And that's why we held up the money.

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CUOMO: All right, look, it was clear enough that the President wanted him to change it. The bigger problem for them though, Rick, I really don't think it's a question. We've had this conversation before. We should continue it now.

There is no question that this President, and Rudy Giuliani, maybe Rudy Giuliani even more than the President, wanted Ukraine to commit, to look into the DNC, but just as importantly, to look into Burisma, which is the company where Joe Biden's son was on the board, and he wanted that levered against the aid.

I don't think that we can dispute that as a matter of fact, an intention. Now, it keeps getting echoed by people who worked around the President, who are loyal to the President. We had the third one say it today.

The only question is whether or not it's enough to impeach. Have you reached that part of the analysis yet?

SANTORUM: Yes, no I looked at it. And - and I looked at the transcript, which is sort of the basis for all of this. And - and the way I read the transcript is, you know, he asked for a favor, and the favor was to look into the - to the 2016 DNC hack.

CUOMO: And Biden.

SANTORUM: Well OK. And again, I've been on conversations where you have interpreters, which of - which they're clearly, you know, they clearly was - was here.

I mean and - and you have him making a statement, or he asked for a favor, you wait for the interpreter to interpret, then - then the President of Ukraine responds, he interpret - he get interpreted and - and--

CUOMO: Yes. But Trump speak in English.

SANTORUM: But - but I--

CUOMO: --as best as he understands it.

SANTORUM: Well but - but the - but the understanding is that, you know, that - that the President of Ukraine brought up Giuliani. President didn't bring up Giuliani. The President of Ukraine brought up Giuliani. And, of course, you know, right--

CUOMO: We now know why Zelensky brought it up. According to Volker and other people--

SANTORUM: I agree with that.

CUOMO: --again, who are loyal to the President, and the President didn't have to respond.

SANTORUM: I-- CUOMO: "Yes. Biden, a lot of people are really into that."

SANTORUM: I get. I get. I get.

CUOMO: "You better look at it."

SANTORUM: Bad judgment. I - I don't think it's an impeachable offense. I think it was poor judgment for the President to even comment on it in this type of conversation.

But I think it's pretty clear, at least it's clear to me, that that's not the favor he was asking for. He was simply commenting, which he shouldn't have, about something that - that the President of Ukraine brought up.

CUOMO: Then why did all the people that we've heard from so far surrounding the conversation and the follow-through think it was exactly about that?

SANTORUM: Well I think that Giuliani's presence and his role there is something obviously is being investigated by, as you mentioned earlier, by the Attorney General. And - and it - there's - there's a concern there about, you know, him as a private citizen and what he's doing.

But again, if you're looking at what would be quoted an impeachable offense, if you want to go that far, the idea that we were holding up aid in exchange for Biden or he was asking for a political favor, I just think is - is, to me, is a bridge too far. And I think it was just a bad judgment call.

CUOMO: Well he was asking information, which you've admitted in the past, you're not supposed to do from a foreign government. And it seemed like he was doing at least that, if not more, but let's let the case be made.

SANTORUM: Yes.

CUOMO: I want to ask you something else--

SANTORUM: Yes.

CUOMO: --that's more clear.

The ceasefire in Syria is not really a ceasefire. It's a 120 hours for them to get out or the killing is going to resume. The President takes it as a victory.

I think that's silly. But let's push past that. He has to undo his decision, Rick. Something else has to happen here. Otherwise, we know what happens in four days and 14 hours.

SANTORUM: Yes, look, I've said on this program many, many times that I agree with the President almost - 90 percent of the time. I agree with him, all his economic policy, I agree with him on - on - on the border, on so many and what he's done in Iran, I just think he is really stepped in it with - with respect to this.

This is - this was a poor decision. It's having really, I think, startling, even startling to him, consequences. I think that's one of the reasons that he's tried to put the genie back in the bottle here.

And - and let's - like - we can talk substance and - and how dangerous it is to - to walk away from one of our closest allies and - and to - and to allow Turkey to - to do what they've been doing--

CUOMO: And Russia to do what they're doing.

SANTORUM: --and - and - and - and - and Russia--

CUOMO: They're literally living in our bases.

SANTORUM: --and - and Assad and - I mean there - there are multiple levels of this is bad. But I'm going to talk about something, I don't know, maybe it hasn't been talked about. This is really bad for the President come November of 2020.

And I have been hearing from so many Republicans, who love Donald Trump, who are telling me, for the first time, they're taking a step back, and they're actually thinking about whether they're going to vote for this man.

And I've heard this from people I'm stunned to hear it from because this was, I just think, reckless. This was - this was not something that we expected from a President who, I think, at - at this point has been on the edge on foreign policy. He's done edgy things.

But he's done - he's done it to try to disrupt things to try to - to try to move North Korea or - or Iran or others. And - and I think it was appropriate. I mean because we were stuck in - in - and it's very different.

CUOMO: I know. But this is different.

SANTORUM: But this is different.

CUOMO: Here's the troubling question.

[21:45:00]

SANTORUM: And I think it's going to affect him with his base. And when you have someone who is--

CUOMO: All right.

SANTORUM: --relies on his base, you can't shake it up, and he's doing that with this - with this effort.

CUOMO: I - I hear it. The big question is why did he do it when he did it right after talking to Erdogan? That is a call we need to know about.

Rick Santorum, thank you very much for making the case. SANTORUM: You're welcome.

CUOMO: Always appreciate it.

SANTORUM: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right, now you heard me talking earlier with Jamie Raskin, the Congressman from Maryland, big loss today, one of the most influential voices in our political culture, and a loss for our republic as a whole.

You need to understand who Elijah Cummings was, and I can show you through what I watched him do in person, next.

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CUOMO: Elijah Cummings was too young to die, he was just 68. I'm sorry for his wife, his daughter, his loved ones.

I hope they know that so many, including me, we respected your father, and your husband profoundly, not just because he was in office, but because of how he used his power.

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His passing at this time with all the toxic influences in our politics, it allows us a chance to remind what passion of purpose is truly about, as lived by Elijah Cummings.

I saw Cummings on the streets of Baltimore, the place he was born, raised and proudly represented during riots in the ugly aftermath of the Freddie Gray scandal, people were outraged. People were lost in emotion.

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REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D-MD): God, we ask you to bless our city, a city that we love, a city that has given us so much.

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CUOMO: Now, I don't know what that's showing you, but you hear Elijah Cummings. This is when politicians are elsewhere. Not Elijah. He was on the ground. He was with the people. He lived up to his name. He somehow, in that moment, and I'm telling you, I was there, people

were angry, it was a riot.

He somehow got people to come together around him with a blow horn, telling them "Come to me, come to me. We're going to pursue justice. We're going to demand the best of our leaders. We're not going to exhibit the worst of reactions. This is about them, not us."

He led them in a prayer that captured his sense of commitment to the people and place. The struggle was real, but so was the hope of getting to a better place.

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CUMMINGS: God, we ask you to bless our city, a city that we love, a city that has given us so much.

CUOMO: When that one young man was like saying, "You need to hear me. You're either with me or you're not."

CUMMINGS: Yes, yes.

CUOMO: "You're either with me," some people of the media, some people turn away, "Oh, he's grandstanding," you didn't.

CUMMINGS: No.

CUOMO: You stayed locked onto that young man.

CUMMINGS: Yes. And - and he hugged me in the end. I have not turned. I went to him (ph). Simple as that.

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CUOMO: He was the real deal. Those were tears from the heart. He was organic, came from the community. Represent that community. Keep living there. Never forget why you were able to rise. That's the kind of leader he was.

A recognition that the son of sharecroppers, a guy who was stoned and cursed as a kid for just trying to get in a pool, he never forgot it. It gave him such profound appreciation when he was able to witness the first African-American President.

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CUMMINGS: When he first called me, back in 2007, he said, "Elijah, I want you to run my campaign in Maryland." I said, "Campaign for what?" He said, "For - for President." I said, "President of what?"

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CUOMO: That was an easy laugh for him, but it wasn't his signature look. That was that droopy face of resolve. That was Elijah Cummings. All business, up for the good fight, especially in the age of Trump.

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CUMMINGS: I don't know what - how we get this through. We're talking about the President of the United States of America. He's going around saying these kind of things. That's ridiculous.

Chris, I will go to my grave protecting this democracy.

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CUOMO: And he did. God love him. Elijah did. Even when he was struggling, his health was fragile for a long time, he'd get on the phone, he'd warn me to see the bigger picture.

He was one of the first to tell me, "Listen, you got all these crimes coming out of your mouth, and all these different theories going on around you, this President is going to be held to account for abuse of office."

And he was right. He reminded us that we must live every day with a profound sense of purpose.

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CUMMINGS: When we're dancing with the angels, the question will be asked. In 2019, what did we do to make sure we kept our democracy intact?

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CUOMO: It makes you wonder if he knew then he didn't have that much time, but he sure lived it. He lived exactly what he was posing as a question to everybody, and his message will not be lost.

So, I wish our brother, Elijah, that his walk into heaven be an easy one, and I wish that he rest in peace. His legacy will carry on. And his need and the need for all of us to understand that we have to check power will live on as well. Elijah Cummings.

Let's take a break.

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(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: BOLO time, Be On the Look-Out. Mick Mulvaney's, "Yes, we did it. We held the money until they'd investigate the DNC." That wasn't his only moment of strong and wrong today.

He also told us that the 2020 G7 Summit of world leaders has been awarded to President Trump's Doral Golf Resort in Miami. He said it's the perfect place, as perfect as that Ukraine call.

The fact that this Summit will draw hundreds of diplomats and personnel to its grounds, amid reports of its nose-diving profits, is raising plenty of conflict of interest questions.

This, of course, should come as no surprise, considering there's already several emoluments lawsuits against this President. So, Be On the Look-Out for more brazen acts by this President to skirt ethical norms.

Like in Turkey, where Trump Towers Istanbul, as he says it, stands and recent U.S. policy moves have enabled Turkey to run over allies in Syria. But you don't have to take my word for it. Trump raised the conflict issue, himself.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I also have - I have a little conflict of interest because I have a major, major building in Istanbul, and it's a tremendously successful job. It's called Trump Towers, two towers, instead of one, not the usual one, it's two. And I've gotten to know Turkey very well.

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CUOMO: Told you he says it that way. The question is, just how well does he know Turkey? So Be On the Look-Out for answers.

Thank you for watching. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: You said that Mulvaney was strong and wrong in the press. I think he was strong and right. And then he had to come back and--

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