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Hala Gorani Tonight
House of Commons Advances Boris Johnson Deal; Russia And Turkey Reach Deal On Syria; House Of Commons Now To Vote On Timeline For Brexit Steps; U.K. Parliament Rejects Brexit Bill Debate Timetable; British P.M. Boris Johnson Pauses Brexit Legislation; Johnson: We Must Accelerate Preparations For No-Deal Brexi. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired October 22, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:17]
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello and welcome, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani.
RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Richard Quest. Live at the House of Commons, the vote is about to begin. The speaker has just called it.
There you go, division (ph)! And we're off to the races.
GORANI: At any moment now, the British Parliament will begin voting on two critical bills that will determine the future of Brexit. We say this a
lot. Today, there is a lot at stake. That's a live look at the House of Commons for you, where lawmakers will soon vote on advancing the E.U.
withdrawal bill.
They're voting, basically, Richard, on the Boris Johnson deal. This is the first chance for M.P.s to signal if the measure should proceed. What's the
expectation?
QUEST: The expectation is that Boris Johnson gets his so-called second reading, and then they have another vote on whether or not to guillotine or
truncate the debate. That is far more dubious for the prime minister.
We've got 15 minutes, now, Hala, by my reckoning. The house is full. The voting has begun. We've about 15 minutes before we get the result, if
history's to good (ph).
GORANI: And what's interesting here is, even if this deal is approved by Parliament, by no means does this mean that it's a done deal.
Bianca Nobilo and Nic Robertson join us now, live with more. Bianca, I'll start with you. So just explain to viewers around the world. Let's say
this deal passes, and it's expected to pass. The prime minister wants, then, to condense the amount of time that it would take to turn it into
law. If that's rejected, what happens?
BIANCA NOBILO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the government will have to spend some time reconsidering because they don't want to be able to give
Parliament large amounts of time to scrutinize this.
But most importantly, what comes first tonight is the vote on the second reading of the withdrawal agreement legislation. So it's not just Boris
Johnson's deal. That's what he wanted, he wanted a binary choice presented to Parliament. Do you support my deal, or do you not? That would have
allowed his momentum to continue.
But now, they're not going to be presented with that choice, they're going to be presented with the entire withdrawal agreement in principle. So
essentially, members of Parliament are voting on principle, on whether or not they want to deliver on the referendum outcome, have Britain leave with
a deal subject to being heavily amended at a later date.
As you mentioned, what follows that is the program motion. That's the government's ideal timetable for this.
Now, bearing in mind that a bill of this magnitude and of this length, which we haven't really seen either, would take 40, 45 hours to work its
way through the House of Commons ordinarily, and they're trying to get it all done by Thursday night.
GORANI: Right.
NOBILO: So you can imagine the M.P.s aren't happy.
GORANI: So just -- and, Nic and Richard and Bianca, for our viewers, if this is rejected, this three-day timetable, what the M.P.s are saying to
the government is, we're going to make this impossible for you to pass, even if the withdrawal agreement is approved, right?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: And behind that, the rationale for why they're saying they're going to make it impossible,
because what the government would like to do is essentially have them take it on the government's word that this is all good. It's an issue of trust,
and we've heard so many points about trust come up during the six hours of debate today. That would be what would be behind, and may very well be
behind it, if this motion is rejected.
QUEST: It is somewhat unusual, the nature of this legislation, that you're going to get the general principles agreed upon, if only so you can get to
stage two, which is then to try and destroy it.
And that's really the dilemma for the prime minister, a choice of relatively no good options. Because if he pulls it next, well, what does
he do then? He has to go for a general election he might not get.
This is a really weird evening.
ROBERTSON: Or -- or perhaps he may go for some kind of limited technical extension. Remember, this is a prime minister who has said by the 31st of
October, we will leave, deal or no deal. So maybe the avenue for no deal seems to be becoming shut down further.
But if there is a way for him to try to get it through within a few days, then it seems so unlikely that he -- here we are, we're nine days away.
We're not at the deadline yet. There seems to be life opportunity, potentially, left for the prime minister, to push this timeline a little
bit longer than the three days he's giving it right now.
GORANI: Is the most likely scenario that we'll see an extension, we'll be here again in January and we'll start all over again?
NOBILO: If the past is anything to go by.
QUEST: I'm going to be -- I'm going to be contrarian.
[14:05:01]
GORANI: Please do.
QUEST: I actually think tonight, you're going to see progress. I think that Nic may have a good handle on that when he says that there will be --
may be a technical extension. But you have to remember, a lot of his -- even his old independent -- (INAUDIBLE) M.P.s will vote for this.
And if he can eke out a small victory for the second reading, then I think you're looking at Brexit. Maybe not October 31st, but before year's end.
GORANI: The E.U.'s trying to support the prime minister in this and not interfere too much in what's happening in the House of Commons. Because
they're keeping (INAUDIBLE) on whether or not they would grant this extension, how long it would be for.
And by doing that, it is putting a little bit of -- more pressure on M.P.s. They're starting to fully absorb the fact that the E.U. is getting
frustrated, regardless of whether or not they would grant an extension. Clearly, they don't want this to get even more protracted than it already
is and roll on into next year.
ROBERTSON: And then the risk, of course, is that if an extension is granted -- and we've heard the French say that they would have to see
significant political change if they were -- would they then say -- would the E.U. leaders then say to the United Kingdom, to Boris Johnson, well,
you can have your extension but you're going to have to have an election.
And how would that play for him? Because he can't call it alone. But would this be a message for the opposition, for the Labour Party, who have
said, we will only go for a general election once there's an extension?
NOBILO: And this is what the E.U.'s always intimated, that it would require a democratic event. So that could very well be an election, or
there's (ph) campaigners outside would be hoping a second referendum potentially. That could lead to more clarity in this instance, because a
general election is likely to throw up similar consolations of confusing positions when it comes to Brexit.
(CROSSTALK)
QUEST: At the end of the day, it could go any one which way and backwards. I mean, you know, the --
NOBILO: Yes.
ROBERTSON: It does feel, though, as if we have --
QUEST: Yes.
ROBERTSON: -- sort of fewer options that we can better see the path. The myriad of options seem to be lesser this evening that --
QUEST: What I find interesting is that the nose-to-the-grindstone mentality, which is what you're talking about, this is it. This seems to
be greater than at any point during those days with Theresa May, when we were going through the indicative vote and then M.V. one, M.V. two, M.V.
three.
ROBERTSON: And if we go to -- and if it does move forward to a general election, this is exactly what the prime minister will play on, that he has
been able to create that mood, create that belief, create that understanding, which got the deal, which got it back, which may get the
numbers but may not have the time to debate it. And that would be a success for him, and that's what he'll take to the public if there's an election.
NOBILO: It's also galvanizing his party. And his party discipline is, even though his party itself is slightly smaller because of all the
expulsions and his remover of the whip from over 20 M.P.s, they are more of a unit than they were under Theresa May. And this is partly because, in
terms of what the greater shifts that we've seen, no deal really is not an option.
Yes, some people are still talking about loopholes by which it could be achieved, but it's not an option. So those members of Parliament that were
always pushing for that as their ideal, have had to abandon it and row in behind the prime minister.
ROBERTSON: And significantly on that, what he's been able to do that Theresa May couldn't do, which was bring in the hardliners in the party --
NOBILO: Yes.
ROBERTSON: -- and at the expense of letting some of the more moderates go. So you can argue this process has really shifted the party towards the
righter wing of the party, for now. But that's where it is.
GORANI: Well, is there sort of a change in the mood of the House of Commons, even among those who were hoping, up until now, that a second
referendum could be an option, that now, really, it's about how this Brexit will take place, and not if it will take place.
NOBILO: The parties who are advocating for a second referendum, like the Scottish National Party, some members of the Labour Party, are a lot more
vociferous than others because the Labour Party has a mixed set of positions when it comes to Brexit -- are still hoping very much to be able
to achieve that.
As Nic said, a number of positions have been eliminated, and it isn't decided, the second referendum or potential Remain that's really been
eliminated at this stage, it's the no deal. That's what we've seen over the last week.
QUEST: But, you know, that's all fair and good, and I agree. The problem is going to be the minutiae of parliamentary procedure. How you get -- how
you get rid of a bad cough there -- how you get from here to there in this scenario. The numbers are too tight. You see, that's the problem.
He doesn't have a majority, we know. He doesn't even have a natural lead (ph) path to a majority, which is even worse. So it's difficult to see, on
each one of these days, when we get into the committee stage tomorrow -- if we do -- how he manages to prevent some fairly substantial wrecking (ph)
amendments, as seen from his side.
[14:10:07]
ROBERTSON: Well, if it goes his way with both votes going in the way -- in the government's direction, then there will be some amendments tonight as
well. That will be expected, after three hours of committee hearings, then some amendments tonight, and 12 hours of committee meetings tomorrow.
At (ph) which stage, during those meetings, every three hours, essentially, there will be the opportunity to vote on amendments. It's a very
accelerated program. But, as you say, there's plenty of opportunity for the so-called sort of wrecking amendments to come up. To today's only two
hurdles, then some more potentially later on, yes.
QUEST: What -- sorry, we are just watching. They're starting to come back into the House now, so we've been about 11 minutes or so. I would think,
in the next couple of minutes, Hala, you're going to see --
GORANI: Yes.
QUEST: -- the tellers starting to form, two from each side, and they will have the result. Three hundred and twenty is the number you need if you
want an absolute majority, 321 to be -- actually (ph), slightly less --
NOBILO: Three-twenty. But there could be extensions.
QUEST: Well, bearing in mind the speaker and all of those --
NOBILO: Yes, who will vote if there's a tie.
QUEST: And that's is (ph) how (ph) we'll see. But, you know, it'll be interesting to see how the DUP vote.
ROBERTSON: Well, they've been very, very clear that they won't support the prime minister. Several of them have spoken today, during their six-hour
debate.
Sammy Wilson, their spokesman in parliament, has been really the strongest. I mean, his language, I've lost my respect for Boris Johnson. He said that
instead of owning up in his decision to capitulate on Northern Ireland -- this was in his negotiations with the European Union, this is the DUP's
view -- instead of owning up to his decision to capitulate on Northern Ireland to get his deal through in a hurry, he is implying that none of us
can read the detail. And that has really got the DUPs back up.
So it's been strong language but Sylvia Herman, the independent from Northern Ireland, has also been speaking intense criticism for the way
Northern Ireland has been treated over this. And there's been support from other M.P.s. So Northern Ireland has been one of those big issues, coming
up, that's had quite a bit of noise through the afternoon.
NOBILO: And even today, Sammy Wilson's speech, bearing in mind that the DUP is still technically meant to be government partners, was definitely
the most impassioned and angry that I heard, the whole afternoon.
ROBERTSON: Waving his hands, he was very strong.
GORANI: So we're three minutes away, just about, from the result of this vote. The expectation is that this will go through, but then it will go on
to another big test for the prime minister, which is what, Bianca?
NOBILO: So then it's the program motion, which is the government's ideal timetable to get this done. So that's pushing all of this legislation. So
Boris Johnson's deal that he's agreed with the E.U., plus all the legislation that accompanies it, all the laws that are required for Britain
to officially leave the European Union, to be pushed through by Thursday night.
And that, I mean, all of us know, is such a truncated timetable. M.P.s feel like they haven't had time to scrutinize it. The entire thing is 115
pages long --
GORANI: Yes.
NOBILO: -- it needs to be pored over in terms of the potential legal ramifications. We heard former Attorney General Dominic Grieve, who has
been a longtime critic of the prime minister and one of the -- sort of the chief architects of a lot of legislative loopholes that have brought down
his strategy over the last few months, has said that this is absolutely not enough time to carefully look over everything that's included in this,
bearing in mind it's going to shape the course of Britain for generations to come.
But then the government would argue, if we don't get this done this week, then it will just open it up to being changed so substantially that it no
longer resembles the prime minister's deal.
ROBERTSON: There's a sense that, I think for some -- listening to some M.P.s today, there's a sense that they feel that they're really being
bounced here by the prime minister.
But this has been the success of the prime minister's strategy to this moment. And that, the sense of being bounced of course, for people whose
job is so important to determine the future course of this country, that just doesn't sit well for many of them.
NOBILO: And it's not new that time is being used as a factor in this process. Because let's remember, back when Theresa May was introducing her
deal, that was the philosophy back then as well --
QUEST: Didn't work.
NOBILO: -- she -- no, certainly didn't work.
ROBERTSON: No.
NOBILO: But that's what people criticize her of, trying to bounce M.P.s into a deal because she was trying to position the vote at a time that was
very close to the deadline.
QUEST: I see the first teller, it looks like, moving into position, which is just about bang-on time. Oh, maybe it's not. No, no, it is one of the
tellers. But the -- what was interesting, of course, on Saturday, is that we didn't see the tellers, and it all got much later, as -- and later and
later.
The second teller is coming in. Here, it looks like the third, and it looks like the fourth. My guess is we are seconds away from hearing the
result of this. The tellers look like they're assembling at the dispatch box at the table in front of the mace.
And John Bercow, the speaker, will -- here we go.
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER OF THE U.K. HOUSE OF COMMONS: Order, order.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ayes to the right, 329. The noes to the left, 299.
BERCOW: The ayes to the right, 329. The noes to the left, 299. So the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Unlock. Order. Program motion to be
moved formally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I beg to move.
BERCOW: Move formally, thank you.
The question is as on the ordered paper. As many as are of that opinion, say aye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aye.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Aye.
BERCOW: Of the contrary, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
BERCOW: Division. Clear the lobby.
GORANI: Well, there you have it.
ROBERTSON: Bigger than expected.
GORANI: Yes.
ROBERTSON: Bigger --
GORANI: What's the significance of that?
ROBERTSON: Well, this bodes better for the prime minister, going into the vote on the program motion. He's sort of got more in hand now. It's more
complicated than that. But if they'd only won this on the vote by two votes, you might be able to day, oh, it just doesn't have a chance, going
into this second vote. But he will be buoyed by that, I think.
I'm not sure if that would exceed his expectation, but it's better than the numbers that we'd been looking at over the past few hours.
QUEST: Yes. The significance is this, that the -- tonight, for the first time, the House of Commons has approved and voted on a Brexit bill. Now,
there was --
GORANI: But don't get too excited because --
NOBILO: Never say (ph) --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: -- because -- because, right, right. Because of course, nothing is ever that simple --
QUEST: No.
GORANI: -- or straightforward. There's another vote on the timetable, and then there are amendments that can be added to this legislation as well.
ROBERTSON: Yes. The amendments will come up and be voted on. Perhaps 10 or 11:00 p.m. tonight, if we get to that moment. But what's going to be
very interesting, obviously, is the outcome of this vote. But I think we're all on tenterhooks as well, to know how the prime minister is going
to play it if he loses this vote.
He said -- and he intimated this afternoon, that he would essentially stop this process and try to move to a general election. But perhaps he has
other gambits, other gambits have come to mind this afternoon.
NOBILO: And some key independent former Conservative M.P.s came out this afternoon, like Oliver Letwin, for example, who was the architect of that
amendment, which scuppered the government and the prime minister's hopes on the weekend, saying that he thought it was right to back this timetable
motion, otherwise the government would, as Nic said, pull the whole bill, so people wouldn't have the opportunity to put amendments on and debate
those.
So that's now the issue, is that the government has essentially threatened to scrap the entire bill if M.P. don't vote through this program motion.
GORANI: All right --
NOBILO: They are definitely playing hardball.
GORANI: -- right, definitely. We'll see what happens, and we'll keep our eye on that.
We want to update our viewers on our other breaking news story, some significant developments. Russia and Turkey have struck a deal on Syria,
just before a pause in Turkey's offensive against Kurdish forces is due to expire. That ceasefire, Richard, is due to expire in just a few hours.
QUEST: Now, as that clock ticks down, Vladimir Putin met the Turkish president, Erdogan, in Sochi in Russia and they were going into the
details. What they've agreed, apparently, is to conduct joint patrols. And that will ensure -- or to ensure Kurdish fighters have withdrawn from
the so-called safe zone along the Turkish border.
This is what President Erdogan, this is the way he put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, PRESIDENT OF TURKEY (through translator): We have signed an historic agreement, according to which, Turkey and Russia will
not allow any separatist agenda taking place in Syria. YPG and their -- and the terrorists, together with their weapons, will be removed out of the
area beyond the 32 kilometers from -- within 15 hours from 22nd of October (INAUDIBLE). And Turkish and Russian forces will be patrolling the area
together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. Let's get more now from our Fred Pleitgen, he's live in Sochi. And you kind of get the impression that these two countries that
support warring sides in the Syrian war, kind of got together today and decided how to carve up that part of Syria.
[14:20:03]
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that's absolutely right, Hala. I think that these two sides, they came
together and essentially what you're seeing right now is, you're seeing the Russians moving the Syrian government forces back into wide parts of
northeastern Syria, where they really haven't been in a very long time.
While at the same time, the Russians also take on a much more important role than they have in the past. And really, the main thing, the bottom
line of all this is, Hala, is that the Russians are saying, look, this part of northeastern Syria, Russia is in, Russia controls part of it. And also
America is out.
If you look at these joint patrols that were announced by the Turks and the Russians, between Russian and Turkish forces, it's almost the same type of
patrols that the Turks were conducting with the U.S. before that.
So it's basically a situation where the Russians are taking over from American forces. In fact, Russia's defense minister, Sergei Shoigu, he
came out not too long ago and said the U.S. has -- at that point, it was an hour and a half to fulfill its obligations in Syria. Obviously, that
ceasefire, coming to an end soon. And the Russians are essentially telling the Americans, get out because Russia is coming in.
So you're absolutely right. It really seems as though the Russian president and the Turkish president have certainly come to an agreement
where the Turks are going to stay in the area that their forces had entered when that offensive -- what's going on, it's about 32 kilometers away from
the Turkish-Syrian border, in an area between two key Syrian towns.
And the Russians and the Syrian government forces are going to move into another area and guarantee that armed Turkish fighters -- armed Kurdish
fighters, I'm sorry, from the YPG are going to exit that territory, in an area of about 30 kilometers, away from the Syrian-Turkish border. And so,
certainly, the Russians, really taking on a large bit of the -- of that area, and of the responsibility for that area.
And another statement, also coming from Sergei Shoigu, the defense minister of Russia, he's already announced that the Russians most probably are going
to bring a lot more military hardware into Syria, obviously to patrol that part of the northeast.
But essentially, again, once again, what you're seeing, as you absolutely correctly put it, is you're seeing the Russians and the Turks essentially
carve up that area. Bashar al-Assad's forces will be moving into large parts of them as well. But the bottom line is, is that America really does
appear to be very much out of the equation in northeastern Syria, Hala.
GORANI: Certainly. And what happens to the Kurds?
PLEITGEN: Well, that's -- that essentially, Hala, is going to be Russia's responsibility, as all this moves forward. They've taken on the
responsibility towards the Turks to say, look, these YPG fighters that were at your border before, we're going to make sure that they disarm.
I think one of the things that Vladimir Putin was saying in the past, is he possibly wanted to integrate them into the Syrian security forces, into the
Syrian military, if that's something that is possible. It's really unclear whether or not that's going to be the case.
But, however, one of the things that we also need to point out, Hala, is that while a lot of these Kurdish fighters were obviously very important,
fighting alongside the U.S., fighting against ISIS, they were essentially the ground force against ISIS.
At the same time, that same Kurdish group, the YPG, was also working together with the Russians in negotiations with the Russians as well. I've
seen YPG checkpoints on Syrian government territory that was held by Bashar al-Assad's forces, their checkpoints were there as well.
Russians have made that agreement with the YPG, for them to allow the Russian forces and the Syrian military into some areas in northeastern
Syria, and now it seems the Russians are going to try and expand on that to try and preserve, if you will, the situation of calm that ensued after that
ceasefire went into effect -- Hala.
GORANI: Fred Pleitgen in Sochi, thanks very much.
You're watching our Brexit news coverage. It's all happening in the building behind us, and we have a lot more news all over the world. And we
will bring you that as well, coming up. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:26:16]
QUEST: We're outside Westminster, where the lights are now on. The protestors' lights are also rather sparkling, actually, the way they
managed to put them together.
GORANI: Right. And Brexit is in the spotlight. You're looking inside the House of Commons right now, where two votes are on the agenda. The U.K.
Parliament has just voted to advance the Brexit bill, meaning M.P.s can put forward amendments to the new Brexit plan.
And right now, a vote on a lightning-speed Brexit timetable, which would give the government just three days to consider the new bill. That is what
is being considered.
QUEST: And what we're waiting for now, are the tellers. So does anyone remember -- well, the last vote was at 7:00 on the nose, and they came back
at 7:15. And then at 7:16, they started this vote, give or take. So by my reckoning, we've got another two or three minutes before, maybe four, five
minutes.
But the chamber is now full again. So what we're looking for are the tellers, who will come in, four of them, two from each side, Hala.
GORANI: Right. And it's going to be important here -- and by the way, we still have with us Bianca and Nic --
QUEST: Yes.
GORANI: -- important, what the result of this vote is. Because even though the House has approved, you know, in its second reading, this Brexit
withdrawal bill, what happens next is crucial, Bianca. Explain why.
NOBILO: What happens next is important because it's the government's idea of their timetable to get this done. They want to see the entire
withdrawal agreement bill complete by the end of Thursday.
Now, that is an incredibly truncated timeline. Usually, something like this would take weeks to move through all the various stages of the House
of Commons, of committee, the house of Lords, bearing in mind how controversial, how historic, how formative this is going to be. M.P.s are
reticent to allow this to go forward because they want the necessary time to scrutinize this.
And then, obviously, there are political considerations that the Labour Party and others would have, allowing Boris Johnson to potentially get his
Brexit done by October the 31st.
QUEST: Yes. Anna Stewart is with us as well. Anna is at 10 Downing Street. Let me just warn you that we may need to interrupt you brutally,
Anna, if we see those tellers re-form. This strategy that the government has put together, if they don't win on this particular point?
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Well, I think they're sharpening minds (ph) here. Because anyone that thought maybe they would vote against this
program motion, will be very concerned if that means that the whole bill is scuppered and pulled. So it's looking tighter than perhaps it was a few
hours ago.
It's interesting, if you think about who would vote for and against the program motion. Of course, it'll have the support of the Conservative
Party and clearly, from what we're seeing, the hardline Brexiteers within that. Opposition party's much less sure, perhaps a few Labour rebels.
Key group I think, Richard, is the independents here, many of whom were Conservative M.P.s. Many were sacked by Boris Johnson, some resigned under
Theresa May. They'd (ph) all be key here. We're hearing different things from all of them, actually, on Twitter.
So this is why this vote is so unclear. But with huge significance, much more so than that second reading. We knew that one would pass, and that
does not necessarily mean that people back Boris' deal, they just wanted to see it go through the next stage perhaps -- Richard.
GORANI: And, Nina, talk to us a little bit about what the E.U., what their calculus is right now as we await the result of this second vote.
NINA DOS SANTOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they'll be comforted by that first vote and how it went, with the margin being slightly higher than
people were expecting. But of course, it is this second vote that is so crucial, largely because, earlier today in the House of Commons, Boris
Johnson made it very clear that if this second timetabling vote didn't pass -
[14:30:00]
DOS SANTOS: -- and also if the E.U. agreed to Parliament's request run basic parliaments further delay, then he would try and get an election.
Richard?
QUEST: Yes. Forgive me, Nina, I didn't want to be rude and interrupt you at the last full second, but it does look as if the tellers are now
assembling. We have two of them there for the government's side. We're waiting now for the third one looks like he's already there.
It's old-fashioned this. You walk through the lobby. Somebody counts you in and counts you out. The doors are locked. I think it's eight minutes
from the minute the division bell rings, Hala, and you're going to get in there and get on with your business.
GORANI: Right. And so this is important because this is a vote on the timetable, right? The government would rather get this whole process done
in a reduced amount of time. It would normally take longer. If M.P.s reject this, then what?
NOBILO: We know that the M.P.s reject this, the government's current thinking is that they're going to have to push for that election again.
And that's because once the E.U. gets some kind of verdict on an extension, which would require a little back and forth, then Labour has absolutely no
justification not to grant an election.
The opposition technically are supposed to push for that, anyway, but their argument has been, we're not going to give you that election until we know
there's no deal chance for no-deal. So if that's taken off the table, an extension provides enough time to have a general election, then they'll
technically have to green-light it. I don't see a way that they can get around that for the opposition party.
ROBERTSON: And indeed, we've heard French officials say, that if they give -- excuse me, I must have the same thing as you, Richard. That if they do
get an extension, it will have to be for some significant political change.
If they give an extension, it is for an election. So if they give an extension, they would, therefore, the French are saying, be an obligation
on the Labour party to support a vote of no confidence in the government. It would be a very intriguing, interesting and perhaps out of international
character and normal protocol thing for the French to engage themselves so much in the affairs of one other country. But that's the level of
frustration here.
QUEST: Here we go. Let's go to the House, please. Let's go to the House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BERCOW, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Order.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ayes to the right, 308. The noes to the left, 322.
BERCOW: The ayes to the right, 308. The noes to the left, 322. So the noes have it, the noes have it. Unlock. Order. Order.
Point of order, Mr. Jeremy Corbyn.
JEREMY CORBYN, LEADER OF LABOUR PARTY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On Saturday, this House emphatically rejected the Prime Minister's deal.
Tonight, the House is -- you're too hasty, I've not finished yet. Tonight, the House has refused to be bounced into debating a hugely significant
piece of legislation in just two days with barely any notice and an analysis of the economic impact of this bill.
The prime minister is the author of his own misfortune. So I make this offer to him tonight. Work with us, work with us, all of us, to agree a
reasonable timetable, and I suspect this House will vote to debate, scrutinize, and I hope amend the detail of this bill. That would be the
sensible way forward, and that's the offer I make on behalf of the opposition tonight.
BERCOW: Point of order, the Prime Minister.
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: May I say in response, Mr. Speaker, how welcome it is, even joyful, that for the first time in this long
silence, this House has actually accepted its responsibilities together, come together, and embraced a deal.
I congratulate the honorable members across the House on the scale of our collective achievement, because just a few weeks ago, hardly anybody
believed that we could reopen a withdrawal agreement, let alone abolish the backstop. That is indeed what they were saying.
And certainly nobody thought that we could secure the approval of the House for a new deal. And we should not overlook the significance of this
moment. And I pay particular tribute to those members of the House who were skeptical and who had difficulties and decided to place the national
interest ahead of any other consideration.
[14:35:04]
But Mr. Speaker, I must express my disappointment that the House has again voted for delay rather than a timetable that would have guaranteed that the
U.K. would be in a position to leave the E.U. on October 31st with a deal.
And we now face further uncertainty and the E.U. must now make up their minds over how to answer parliament's request for a delay. And the first
consequence, Mr. Speaker, is that the government must take the only responsible course and accelerate our preparations for a no-deal outcome.
But secondly, I will speak to E.U. member states about their intentions until they have reached a decision. Until we reach a decision, I must say,
we will pause this legislation.
Let me be clear. Let me be clear. Our policy remains that we should not delay, that we should leave the E.U. on October the 31st, and that is --
that is what I will say to the E.U. and I will report back to the House. And one way or another, we will leave the E.U. with this deal to which this
House has just given its assent. And I thank -- and I thank members across the House for that hard-won agreement.
BERCOW: Point of order, Mr. Ian Blackford.
IAN BLACKFORD, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and I must say I find the response of the prime minister quite
extraordinary. Because the facts of the matter are --
BERCOW: Order. Order. Right honorable gentleman is entitled to raise a point of order and he is entitled to be heard. Let's hear the right
honorable member and then we will expedite progress.
Mr. Ian Blackford.
BLACKFORD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The facts of the matter are this is yet another humiliating defeat for the prime minister this evening who has
sought to railroad through this House legislation and declares proper scrutiny. And rightly, this House has spoken with a very clear voice to
tell the prime minister he is not odd.
And furthermore, it is absolutely crystal clear what should now happened. Because the legislation passed by this House, it is the law of the land on
the basis of not agreeing a deal that the prime minister is instructed, instructed, Prime Minister, to seek an extension. Go to Brussels -- go to
Brussels and do as you have been instructed and do not put yourself offside against this Parliament.
Mr. Speaker, it is crystal clear that this is a government that has no confidence, a government that has sought to ignore the wishes of the
Scottish parliament and the Scottish people. It is obvious to us that if we want to guarantee our rights as E.U. citizens, then Scotland has to
become an independent country.
And I wonder to that end, if you can advise me as to what we must do in this House, both in terms of securing the extension but also in terms of
protecting Scotland's national interest as to what options are open to us.
BERCOW: The right honorable gentleman have a sense that his question is largely rhetorical. I say that in no disobliging spirit. I don't think
the right honorable gentleman needs my advice, or if he does, he doesn't need it tonight. And so we'll leave it there for now -- well -- the right
honorable lady, forgive me if I take that point of order from the father of the House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, there you have it, a success to begin the evening for Boris Johnson, the House of Commons approving the withdrawal bill but then
rejecting the timetable that the prime minister favored of three days, which means effectively what, Richard?
QUEST: It means that he can't get the bill through parliament by the deadline because he's no longer allowed to truncate it -- or truncate the
debate. He's now going to have to ask for a delay, but he's hoping, out of some miracle, that the Europeans will decide not to give him a delay or
will play along with this game. They won't, by the way. They won't.
GORANI: They will give him a delay. They will.
ROBERTSON: Well, some of them have said it should be conditional, and now he rather -- dodging around the question by Jeremy Corbyn to work through
some sort of technical delay where everything gets scrutiny. The prime minister doesn't appear to want to give it time to have.
He really thoroughly kicks the ball into the European Union's court here. I mean, this is absolutely fascinating. He said, I won't make my next
move. I'm going to call them this evening and I won't make my next move until I hear back from them. They're not going to like this at all, I'm
quite sure.
[14:40:04]
GORANI: Great. But what are the options now for Boris Johnson? What does he have left? The general election?
NOBILO: Well, of course, he wants the general election. He wanted the general election a while ago, and the question is, as an extent, if the
E.U. grant that extension, and the Labour Party are more likely to give him one. He obviously doesn't want to accept Corbyn's offer to have those
discussions. Because Labour have outlined this six tests for the kind of Brexit that they can get on board with.
None of them really fit with what Boris Johnson and his team are trying to create as an electoral strategy. They all involve a very closely aligned
relationship with the European Union, whether it's a customs union where there's close alignment on all these different areas that Brexiteers will
just shudder in there if they have to sign up to it.
The other interesting thing which, Richard, you were murmuring about when he was speaking, is the fact that he didn't mention the date, the 31st of
October. And I distinctly remember when Theresa May stopped mentioning the date. She was always going to leave by the 29th of March and she stepped
to it and she repeated every single duty and then she stopped and it trailed off and look at where we are.
ROBERTSON: But this is a do or die prime minister. He cannot, on the floor of Parliament there, capitulate to the leader of the opposition.
Capitulate I say that because it would be to take the offer of more time when that is categorically the thing he said he wouldn't do and to the one
man he wouldn't take it from.
GORANI: He said, we must accelerate -- but he also said we must accelerate preparations for a no-deal Brexit.
ROBERTSON: This is always the thing that the Downing Street have been saying today that one of the wonderful things of all this is passed the day
is that we can downscale. In fact, he was talking about it from the dispatch today. We can slow down and even stop these preparations for a
no-deal Brexit. A panacea for the country.
QUEST: He has put Europe tonight in an impossible position. They were in a difficult bind after Saturday when they sent the three letters. But
tonight, you know, he's literally thrown the hand grenade with the pin out hoping they'll gone in.
ROBERTSON: No, you're absolutely right. But I'll say what I said on Saturday when he -- the margin that he lost the vote by, if the Democratic
Unionist Party has supported him on this vote, the outcome would have been different, he would have passed -- he would have passed this timetable that
he wanted.
Again, and to their words today and as we see, history with judges is such that to get his deal he compromise on the needs and desires that necessary
political needs of the Democratic Unionist Party in Northern Ireland. It's cost him 10 votes. They've been written off as the numbers irrelevance
because the majority have been winner to a negative majority.
But they have been proven utterly critical here. This is the power of the politicians in Northern Ireland to essentially bring down his plans.
You're looking at Nigel Dodds from the Democratic Unionist Party speaking here.
GORANI: And if you think this is over, it's not, because there are a series of votes tomorrow.
QUEST: Well, they won't be -- they won't be tomorrow.
ROBERTSON: He will put a pause, he said, until he's heard back from the European leaders. So, does that mean it goes into the community stage
tonight as was anticipated?
QUEST: But it was pretty good politically.
ROBERTSON: But until he heard back, I think, he said. Yes.
NOBILO: But you mentioned the predicament the E.U. finds itself in, and it is such a quandary. Because not only are their options potentially a
renegotiation at some point which might involve the customs union because that might demand majority support --
QUEST: Can I just cut?
NOBILO: Go ahead.
QUEST: Let's clarify it. He said, I will say to the E.U. member states about their intentions until they have reached a decision. Until then, we
will pause this legislation.
ROBERTSON: Oh, until then, thank you.
QUEST: So he's going -- and the pause is on, and we're waiting for -- to poor Donald Tusk, poor man. He's just about to finish.
ROBERTSON: Well, they were battling out today. They were saying some, let's joint press conference today.
NOBILO: I mean, if the E.U. provide a short enough extension that doesn't allow for an election or a second referendum but that does provide more
time for Parliament to scrutinize this legislation, then you could see how feasibly Boris Johnson will bring it back and try to get it through, and
then there will be even fewer options for M.P.s to consider, and potentially they may support an amended version of the current deal. But
that requires a couple of contingency.
ROBERTSON: And, of course, by pausing it now, it doesn't give anyone any extra time at all. Because if you kept talking until there was an answer
from the European Union, that would be additional time for scrutiny.
NOBILO: And let's remind ourselves that the European Union have said that they don't want to provide an answer until they have a clue as to whether
or not the U.K. parliament is -- they would ratify it.
ROBERTSON: Well, they said they would really -- essentially they said they would wait to see what the U.K. parliament and then they would read it,
we'll try reading this, really.
[14:45:01]
GORANI: So what happens tomorrow?
ROBERTSON: Well, there won't be -- they won't be debating this exit bill anymore and it won't be in their committee stages. That's all we know at
the moment. It really is. I mean --
NOBILO: There'll be a statement on Brexit of some sort.
ROBERTSON: A holding pattern.
NOBILO: Yes, exactly. Likely we'll have movement tonight. There'll be a statement or tweet from Donald Tusk, something from Juncker, something from
one of the E.U. leaders, which then Downing Street will have to respond to.
GORANI: So more incremental developments on the Brexit.
ROBERTSON: But at a bare minimum -- but at a bare minimum, it does seem we're entering a frame where there will be more time. I sort of hesitate
because the prime minister still has a process do or die 31st of October. But we seem to be entering a period where there will be the potential for
more time for debate. How much and could it tip into an election.
NOBILO: (INAUDIBLE) Brexit.
GORANI: And if an election is called -- if an election is called, we're looking at December, beginning of December, around there?
NOBILO: Yes, which is, of course, not what any campaign headquarters want. It's very difficult to campaign in the winter months. It's hard to get
volunteers on the streets, it's hard to get the vote out, it's not ideal electorally.
QUEST: And London is hosting the NATO summit --
ROBERTSON: Very beginning of December.
QUEST: The first week of December. So I can't imagine that we will be voting that weekend. The U.K. always goes to the polls on a Thursday.
GORANI: On Thursday. Yes.
ROBERTSON: We will be into the school nativity play season, and many of the polling stations are in schools and that will up end a lot of -- a lot
of plans, nativity play plans for schools around the country, potentially. That would not sit well.
GORANI: It'll be like a scene from "Love, Actually."
ROBERTSON: To my mind as well.
GORANI: Yes, of the Sequel.
QUEST: From the fix parliament --
GORANI: "Love Actually," the Brexit edition.
ROBERTSON: I'm sure the country is waiting for that.
GORANI: Yes.
QUEST: Let's take a break.
GORANI: All right. Yes. We'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
GORANI: We are watching a crucial and pretty hectic night in Westminster for you this hour where moments ago Prime Minister Boris Johnson said, it
is time to accelerate preparations for a no-deal Brexit. It came after parliament narrowly rejected a proposal to rush through the new Brexit bill
at lightning speed. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ayes to the right, 308. The noes to the left, 322.
[14:50:05]
BERCOW: The ayes to the right, 308. The noes to the left, 322. So the noes have it, the noes have it. Unlock.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
QUEST: This was parliament completely rejecting the idea that the massive withdrawal agreement could be railroaded through the House in three days.
The prime minister, though, said if M.P.s didn't do that and back the timetable, then the whole bill it pull it -- it'll put it on pause.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Let me be very clear that I'll come exactly to the point the honorable gentleman raises, I will in no way allow months, no way, allow
months more of this. If parliament refuses to allow Brexit to happen and instead gets its way and decides to delay everything until January or
possibly longer, in no circumstances can the government continue with this.
And with regret, I must go directly to the point that the honorable gentleman raises. A great regret, I must say that the bill will have to be
pulled and we will have to go forward, much as the right honorable gentleman may not like it, we will have to go forward to a general
election.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Well, it's an election his party suspects it can win to push through the Brexit that it wants. Earlier, parliament voted to advance the
Brexit bill, but meaning M.P.s can put forward amendments to the new Brexit plan.
Let's not bug ourselves down with all these details, because the big picture here is that this country is in limbo, it's in crisis.
Victoria Hewson is from the Institute of Economic Affairs. And also joining us is conservative Member of Parliament, Crispin Blunt. Thank you,
Crispin. Thanks for coming and nice to see you again.
How did you vote this evening?
CRISPIN BLUNT, CONSERVATIVE MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Well, I supported the prime minister.
GORANI: And then the second vote?
BLUNT: And, of course, continuous (INAUDIBLE) said that we can get this done. The timetable is completely necessary because it's the legislation
to support the agreement. The agreement was made on the 17th of October, and we have to get this over the line on the 31st of October to a timetable
that the European Union gave us when we were given the extension back in April.
GORANI: Yes, we can't do that now, so what's next?
BLUNT: Well, we can do this, in fact. Anything is possible in there. And what I have, indeed, written to the European Council leaders to say what is
plainly obvious, that it's only if they deny us an extension and force the House of Commons to make the choice between deal or no deal, will they
actually face up to their responsibilities and get the deal done?
And we need the European Union to decline the extension request that has been imposed upon the government and by the majority who voted for yet
further delay and further procrastination of the discussion of this. And you can't also this piece of legislation significantly at all, because it
supports the deal that was agreed between the government and the E.U.
So the idea you consider there in sticking place or customs union or any other significant alterations to it is for the birds because it's there to
implement a treaty that has been agreed between the government and the European Union.
QUEST: So that will put the Europeans in a very difficult position, but what's interesting, Victoria, is that Jeremy Corbyn made what seemed to be
an extremely reasonable offer to have a short technical delay to properly debate this.
VICTORIA HEWSON, HEAD OF REGULATORY AFFAIRS, INSTITUTE OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS: Well, I think in reality, all of this sort of posturing and virtually
signaling about having more time to debate the important aspect of the withdrawal are just, as Crispin says, is pure procrastination. If the
prime minister put forward a timetable of three weeks, they would have insisted on five. It's really just another excuse to extend and delay.
GORANI: Doesn't that just tell you everything you need to know about how difficult it's going to be to get any kind of Brexit through Parliament?
The country itself is also divided.
BLUNT: It's true this part --
GORANI: But also the country itself, there's no clear majority --
BLUNT: This parliament is in (INAUDIBLE) come to that expertise in a minute. This part is in basic breach of the undertaking it made the
electorate when it was elected in 2017.
And it's now been camouflaged by, oh, no-deal is acceptable. That camouflage has been --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACOB REES-MOGG, BRITISH CONSERVATIVE MP: On the standing order 83A and standing order 63, and I mention that for the convenience of the House,
therefore, I have no option but to make a business statement as we could not have continued with the business previously set out for tomorrow.
Therefore, tomorrow, the 23rd of October, there will be the continuation of debate on the Queen's speech on the NHS. On Thursday, the 24th of October,
there will be a conclusion of the debate on the Queen's speech on the economy. And on Friday, the 25th of October, the House will not be
sitting.
[14:55:11]
QUEST: Right. And that was basically the -- he's basically said the rest of the week, Crispin, you're going to be discussing and debating the
Queen's speech.
BLUNT: Right.
QUEST: But no sitting on Friday. So you're going to hear the Queen's speech and a vote on the Queen's speech before the end of the week.
BLUNT: I think we can't reasonably expect what's going to happen with that Queen's speech.
QUEST: You don't (INAUDIBLE) as well.
BLUNT: There is (INAUDIBLE) we don't have much --
QUEST: Normally, the last of the Queen's speech is tantamount to a vote of no confidence.
BLUNT: Yes. But it would have been allow me to pass to fix down parliament's act which (INAUDIBLE) the government's program has been voted
down, and you're going to have -- we'll have to have a further vote in order to get a shot at the government. We've got ourselves in the right
model with the constitutional changes we've made in the (INAUDIBLE) and now, we're paying the price.
GORANI: Victoria, I just want to get back to that question about how divided the country is and how there is no clear majority for -- not for
Brexit but for a specific kind of Brexit, whether it's hard, whether it's negotiating customs union.
Every poll I've seen shows, you know, that there's no clear majority. How do you resolve this problem?
HEWSON: Well, first, you resolve it by following the democratic mandate of the actual referendum. Opinion polls are transitory. A fully
constitutional referendum is something that has to be on it and we need to do it for that reason.
And actually, the polling, to the extent it is relevant, shows that there was significant support for the prime minister's deal and actually
significant support for just doing Brexit. Although people may not have changed their minds about how they would have voted if there were another
referendum, they support an acting the one that we had.
GORANI: Victoria Hewson and Crispin Blunt, thank you so much to both of you.
I'm Hala Gorani. That's going to do it for me.
QUEST: And for me -- oh, no, it's not.
GORANI: No.
QUEST: No, it's not.
GORANI: You're back.
QUEST: I'm on the other side of this break. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is next. And here's where we have a stop, I promise you.
END
