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Hala Gorani Tonight
Tim Morrison To Testify Today In House Impeachment Inquiry; Protests Continue Around The World; Four Now Arrested As Investigation Into 39 Bodies Found In Essex Continues; Indonesia Blames Boeing, FAA, Pilots For Lion Air Crash; NATO Allies Have Criticized Turkey's Actions; E.U. Agrees "In Principle" To Extension, Delays Setting Date; Police Department Helps Drug Addicts Get Treatment. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired October 25, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:22]
HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello, everyone. Live from CNN London, I'm Hala Gorani.
Tonight, the White House is bracing itself. A top advisor on the National Security Council is scheduled to speak with Congress in the impeachment
inquiry. We are live in Washington for the very latest.
Plus, more arrests. We have new developments in the investigation into the deaths of 39 people, found in a truck in southeastern England.
Also, bidding farewell to a political giant in America. We'll tell you all about the funeral of longtime House Democrat Elijah Cummings, which took
place today.
As damaging as this week's impeachment proceedings have been for the American president, Donald Trump, next week could be even worse. The first
current official inside the White House is set to testify.
We're learning that Russia advisor Tim Morrison is expected to corroborate key statements from the top U.S. envoy to Ukraine. Now, you may remember
Bill Taylor -- who's on the right there on your screen -- directly linked Mr. Trump to quid pro quo demands on Ukraine's president.
More potentially blockbuster testimony could be in the works. A source says lawyers for former national security advisor John Bolton are in talks
with House committees.
Today, Mr. Trump once again dismissed the entire inquiry.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a hoax, it's just a continuation of the Russian witch hunt, which turned out to be Phony. The
Mueller deal was phony. And now they have this. And all it is is very simple. It's one conversation that I had with the president of Ukraine
that was perfect. That Adam Schiff defrauded everybody, and he made up the conversation in the halls of Congress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: All right. So we've heard that from the president before. It's been his leitmotif since this impeachment inquiry began.
But Democrats, while they are pressing ahead with impeachment, well, Trump's Justice Department is stepping up an inquiry of its own. The
Justice Department in America is now conducting a criminal investigation into the origins of the Russia probe, essentially investigating its own
investigation.
Let's bring in CNN Political Commentator, David Swerdlick. He's an assistant editor with "The Washington Post."
And, David, I want to ask you first about this first current White House official scheduled to testify. What do we expect from that?
DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, good afternoon, Hala. I think it's just going to be another brick in the wall of the case that
congressional House Democrats are building against President Trump.
The -- all of the most sort of damning or alleged damning facts are already out there. The letter that the president just referred to in that clip you
played, between -- excuse me, not the letter but the transcript of the call between him and President Zelensky on July 12th. You have Ambassador
Taylor's testimony, you have Ambassador Sondland's testimony that's been contradicted.
And you have this steady drumbeat of these other administration officials, piecing the puzzle together that there was some kind of quid pro quo, a
political action allegedly, for withholding allegedly the congressionally approved aid to Ukraine.
And as we progress in all of these various depositions and hearings, it's getting closer and closer to Democrats getting ready to do an impeachment
vote on articles of impeachment in the body of the whole House of Representatives. So we are moving at a rapid pace toward that end.
GORANI: And what are we looking at timeline-wise here, for this to happen?
SWERDLICK: Well, you know, there are conflicting theories and I think this is the central question for House Democrats and leadership, including
Speaker Pelosi right now. One theory of the case is that they have a responsibility, the House Democrats, to methodically build a case and get
as many details of the allegations out and on the record as they can.
Another theory of the case is, look, we already have enough to do articles of impeachment, some Democrats are saying. And if we go into Thanksgiving
and Christmas and the picture gets more convoluted, it will be harder for Democrats to make the political case that they're doing the right thing.
So some are calling for this to happen before the holidays begin.
GORANI: All right. David Swerdlick at the "Washington Post," always a pleasure. Thanks very much. Have a great weekend.
SWERDLICK: Thanks, Hala.
GORANI: Let's get some perspective now from CNN Political Analyst, Jackie Kucinich. She's the Washington bureau chief for "The Daily Beast." Let's
talk about the Department of Justice opening a now-criminal probe into the origins of the Mueller investigation, essentially investigating its own
probe. What are we to make of this? There are some accusations this is political?
[14:05:15]
JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. This has raised some concerns here that perhaps -- that President Trump is having a lot more
influence at the Justice Department than was previously known, and that he can start to go after his political adversaries as a result of this turning
into a criminal investigation.
A.G. Barr did launch a -- we knew that this was going on. And yes. So that's kind of where we are at this point. He's now able to call witnesses
and perhaps convene a grand jury and file criminal charges.
GORANI: Right. And -- but from the outside looking in, I mean, explaining to our international viewers, is it unusual for the Department of Justice
to investigate a probe in such a way, acting really almost on behalf of the White House?
KUCINICH: Absolutely. I mean, yes. All of this is completely unusual. The fact that the investigators are currently investigating the
investigation is something that Trump wanted when Jeff Sessions, his previous attorney general, was in charge, and he wasn't getting it. When
William Barr took over, he decided to launch this.
So the fact that some of the president's adversaries, someone like James Comey, the former FBI director who he fired, could potentially be under
more scrutiny as a result of this -- this probe, looks like the president is using the Justice Department as an instrument of revenge.
GORANI: It's been a dramatic week in terms of the impeachment inquiry because we heard from the acting ambassador to Ukraine, Bill Taylor,
essentially saying that this military aid that Donald Trump was withholding was being withheld until Ukraine promised to investigate Donald Trump's
political rivals. Where does that bring us now on this impeachment inquiry?
KUCINICH: So Bill Taylor's -- the statement that we saw really did rock Capitol Hill, and so did his testimony. It really -- for the first time,
we understood the breadth of this and the fact that the president wanted the Ukrainian president to go on television and say that he wanted to -- he
wanted Burisma and the Bidens to be investigated, he wanted to put him into that box.
It now raises questions about the E.U.'s ambassador's -- about his deposition to Congress. There's some talk about bringing him back. It
puts more White House staff in the crosshairs. Mick Mulvaney, we didn't know how close he was into this when -- before Bill Taylor's testimony.
So now, really, we're waiting to hear from Tim Morrison. He'll testify on Thursday. Another person who is actually a current White House staffer, he
actually was on the call, the infamous call between the president and the Ukrainian president. And so we'll be able to hopefully glean information -
- once it leaks from the committee -- as to what he's going to say and whether it bolsters Bill Taylor's account.
GORANI: Ted Lieu, one of the better-known congressional Democrats, had this to say about the testimony he's heard this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TED LIEU (D-CA): Bill Taylor's testimony was devastating to the president, and Bill Taylor essentially laid out a quid pro quo between the
Trump administration and the president with the Ukrainian leader.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: So, Jackie, this is what the Democrats want to hammer home, every day, several times a day. But politically, is this harming the president?
Because his overall approval rating actually inched up a little bit in the last poll, I saw, at 41 percent. It doesn't seem to be having much of an
impact, at least on his core supporters.
KUCINICH: Well, nothing is going to have an impact on his core supporters. But Republicans on the Hill are very uncomfortable with what was revealed
in this latest deposition. So much so, you hear them attacking the process, they're talking about the fact that it's behind closed doors, that
the American people aren't seeing it, rather than the facts that are coming out, rather than the substance of the Ukrainian investigation.
And that's because, in a lot of ways, it's indefensible. And it really didn't -- there wasn't a question of whether this happened at this point, I
think, in a lot of folks' minds. It's a question of what happens next, what are Republicans going to do.
GORANI: All right. Jackie Kucinich, thanks very much, really appreciate it.
KUCINICH: Thank you.
GORANI: Now, to this story, the wave of global protests. And it's a wave across the planet, really, is what we've been witnessing over the last few
days. It seems perhaps, even though as some protestors in one part of the world are being encouraged by demonstrators, really, half a world away.
[14:10:14]
They've rocked these nations all over the world this week, showing no sign of letting up, as people in a number of countries demand action on the
things that affect them directly: jobs, how much things cost. They're also fed up, frankly, of their corrupt leadership.
At least 11 people were killed and 1,500 injured in Iraq today. It happened when police tried to break up protests demanding government action
on unemployment and corruption.
Lebanon's president gave a speech on Thursday in an effort to calm the protests there. But his address didn't include any major concessions, and
protestors could be heard jeering him.
Anger over the cost of living and income inequality has brought Chile to a standstill. The U.N. says it is sending a special mission to investigate
allegations of human rights abuses there. Just a short time ago, the U.N. secretary-general had this to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONIO GUTERRES, SECRETARY-GENERAL OF THE UNITED NATIONS: And I call on protestors to follow the examples of Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. and
other champions of nonviolent change. There can be no excuse for violence from any quarter. Above all, I urge leaders everywhere to listen to the
real problems of real people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: We're well-positioned to cover this global story. Ben Wedeman is in Beirut, and we have Matt Rivers in Santiago in Chile.
Ben, I want to start with you. What is the situation now? Because leaders in Lebanon are trying to calm demonstrators and to soothe their anger. It
doesn't seem to be working. Why not?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, it's not working in terms of the political leaders actually meeting the demands of this
protest movement, and it's also complicated by the fact that we have seen clashes among the Lebanese themselves in the square right below me, next to
the prime minister's office.
This afternoon, we saw as Hezbollah supporters clashed with anti-government demonstrators. It got quite violent at times. We saw some of the people
on both sides of the clashes injured, as well as some of the police.
Now, eventually, well, this coincided with a speech by Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah, the secretary-general of Hezbollah, where he reiterated his
belief that the government should remain. He said that Prime Minister Hariri's reform package, which he announced on Monday, is the first
positive step toward resolving the problems of Lebanon.
He is worried that if the government resigns, if there are early elections, it'll essentially create a vacuum that could lead to chaos -- and we're
already seeing a bit of that at the moment -- and perhaps even civil war.
And also, during his speech, he called upon his supporters to leave the demonstrations, and they did, immediately. They left this square behind
me, but not after first exchanging more blows, throwing rocks and bottles and sticks, exchanging them with the other demonstrators. They basically
were chased out of the square. But just on the road above us, they started lighting tires in the road.
So the situation is very tense, complicated by the differences among the Lebanese themselves, in addition to the continuing protests against the
government. So it's getting ever-more complicated. And now, ever more dangerous -- Hala.
GORANI: And it's interesting because in the beginning of this movement, there was unity, you felt, among the demonstrators. And now, these old
divisions are emerging again. I wonder, what will that do to the protest movement itself?
WEDEMAN: I think the protest movement will continue. But yesterday, actually, we were speaking with a former minister, Charbel Nahas, who is
one of the individuals who's actually considered a possible leader of this movement. And he was explaining that all the political parties here,
whether it's Hezbollah or Amal and others, or Hariri's Mustaqbal or Future Movement, are all feeling the same pinch: the lack of money from abroad.
Saudi Arabia stopped supporting Saad Hariri, the prime minister, because he is involved in a government that includes ministers from Hezbollah.
Hezbollah is feeling the pinch because of sanctions on Iran, which means a lot of the money from Iran is no longer coming here, as well as American
sanctions on Hezbollah itself.
So all of these groups are running out of money, which was the fuel that kept the Lebanese political system afloat. So in fact --
[14:15:04]
GORANI: Yes.
WEDEMAN: -- despite what we saw today, there are members of the Shia community who are not as supportive as they were for Hezbollah --
GORANI: Yes.
WEDEMAN: -- and the same applies for all the other political parties here. As he told us, the fuel has run out for the Lebanese political system.
It's failing as we speak.
GORANI: Ben, thanks very much. And stand by.
Matt Rivers, you're in Chile. What is driving protests there? We've seen a lot of violence over the last few days.
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean, if you had to boil it down to two words, really, it's all about income inequality, Hala. This country, while
being (inaudible) speaking, the wealthiest country in Latin America, it is also one if not the highest country in the world in terms of economic
inequality.
And so you have people -- like the ones behind me, there are thousands of people now here in what's called Plaza Italia, and they have slowly been
building throughout the day. You hear the cheers, you hear the chants, and they have a consistent set of demands for the government. They want
pension reform, they want better funding for their public education system, they want lower health care costs.
They have a list of demands, but it all comes back, Hala, to the fact that they believe that the government here, which really has been celebrated in
certain circles for privatizing a lot of things, for being a free-flowing capitalist country.
What the people out on these streets now believe is that they've been left behind. That you have seen three decades of policies here in Chile that
have benefited the rich, that have made the wealthy get wealthier while leaving behind ordinary people who feel trapped in the middle-income track.
And so that is a manifestation.
These protests started a little over a week ago over a small hike in the subway fare here in Santiago. But that was just the spark, and that was
the spark that this city needed to come out and clearly express the rage that has been bubbling beneath the surface.
GORANI: All right. Matt Rivers in Santiago, Chile and Ben Wedeman in Beirut, Lebanon, thank you.
For more perspective, I'm joined now by Brett Bruen and he was director of Global Engagement for the Obama White House. Thanks for being with us,
Ben.
Let me ask you, first of all, about specifically why there is so much frustration across Latin America now. Because a few years ago, you had
economies, whether it was Peru, Bolivia, Chile, they were doing OK, there was high growth. Now, there's a lot of frustration, unemployment and
demonstrations sweeping many countries. What's going on?
BRETT BRUEN, PRESIDENT, GLOBAL SITUATION ROOM: Well, to put it in one word, mismanagement. And it was easy to cover up some of the management
issues when the economies were doing well. But most of these countries, whether it's Chile or Bolivia or others across the region, depend largely
on natural resources. And they have not diversified their economies.
So what you're seeing play out now is a reduction in what they can get for those natural resources on the international market, and they have nowhere
else to turn. And so now they have to confront these problems without the budget, without the changes to their economies that were necessary to take
several years ago. Now it's going to be painful.
GORANI: Yes. And, Brett, the one thing that you told my producer that I thought it was interesting, was that in Latin America, they're drawing
inspiration from what's happening in other parts of the world. Hong Kong for instance, or what we're seeing in the Middle East. Is this --
BRUEN: Or even -- yes --
GORANI: -- social media-driven?
BRUEN: -- or even be -- well, I think what you're seeing happen is that the tactics that are being used successfully in one place -- whether it's
the extinction revolution in Europe, the protests in Hong Kong, even as you were just sharing in the streets of Beirut -- all of this is part of a
global conversation. And these activists are speaking to one another, they are taking energy and enthusiasm from the successes that they see
elsewhere, and they're applying them on the streets of Santiago and in other parts of Latin America.
GORANI: Why is it so violent in Chile? I mean, we've seen 18 deaths at last count.
BRUEN: Well, I think there's a variety of factors. One, you have mismanagement by the security forces, by the government. The government
just did not come in with a strategy to de-escalate the situation, and to adequately resolve the concerns.
Also, I think, quite frankly, you know, you have a situation that is just very explosive. And when you're dealing with people who have frustration
over the economy, don't have jobs, don't have access to the kind of services they need, they are going to resort to more extreme measures, and
that's what's happening in Chile at the moment.
[14:20:13]
GORANI: So are you hopeful at all that the government will be able to address these concerns without further violence? Because you can sense the
desperation from the people here.
BRUEN: You can. And I think there's been a real wake-up call. But what I would say is, it's important that the old guard give way to new leadership,
to new ideas. There's one common thread in all of these Latin American countries whether it's Haiti, Bolivia, Ecuador or Chile, is you've got a
lot of old leaders who are following traditional ideas, whether they're on the left or the right. They need to embrace a new generation and new ideas
to try and rectify some of the challenges that this generation is facing.
GORANI: All right. And certainly, manage the economy better when it's booming, and it was for a while and it ended up, for many people, being a
very difficult economic situation, as you're describing.
Brett Bruen, thanks so much for joining us on CNN. We appreciate it.
Still to come tonight, British police make new arrests in the deaths of 39 people, found in a truck container. We're learning new developments in the
international investigation. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: Now, the numbers here of dead, the numbers are shocking. Police in the United Kingdom have arrested, now, a fourth person in connection
with the deaths of 39 people found in that shipping container on Wednesday.
And Vietnam's embassy in London is now working with the police here to determine if any of the victims were Vietnamese nationals, there have been
reports of that.
British authorities are in the process of removing and identifying the bodies from the truck. Police have not been able to determine whether the
victims are Chinese or Vietnamese, and it's going to take a long time, authorities have told CNN, to determine where these unfortunate victims
came from originally.
Scott McLean joins me now from northern Ireland, where the truck began its journey. What more are we learning, Scott?
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Hala. Well, that truck originated from Northern Ireland. The trailer itself was rented out by a company in
Ireland, just across the border. But they took very different routes to get to Essex.
Police have updated the media today to say that there have now been four people arrested, three of them today. One of them was actually arrested at
a metro London-area airport. All three of the new arrests are on suspicion of conspiracy to traffic people, and also of manslaughter.
[14:25:03]
Now, as you said, yesterday, the Essex police had said that they believed that all 39 of these victims were of Chinese origin. They now say that it
is a developing picture, and they won't say anything further on that until they know for sure their nationalities. And obviously, that identification
process is going to take some time.
A Vietnamese government source says that they have been hearing from a father who fears that his daughter is among those victims who were killed.
Her brother shared text messages that the family received from her, late on Tuesday night. And I want to read them to you.
The messages say, I'm sorry, Mom, my path to abroad doesn't succeed. Mom, I love you so much. I'm dying because I can't breathe.
She then says where she's from in Vietnam, presumably to help investigators identify her. And then she says, I am sorry, Mom.
The formal autopsy process began today, Hala. But as you said, that could be a very lengthy process.
GORANI: It's just heartbreaking, that she says, I'm sorry, in those text messages, as she's reportedly dying. That's just absolutely heartbreaking.
And there was a first arrest of a 25-year-old. What can you tell us about that individual?
MCLEAN: Yes. So he is still in police custody on suspicion of murder, though no formal charges have been laid thus far. We actually went to his
parents' home and knocked on the door, there was no one there.
Not everyone in that neighborhood gave us a very warm welcome, but other neighbors that I was able to speak to stressed that, look, he is innocent
until proven guilty, and certainly under the law he is.
We also tracked down the company that actually owns the container or the trailer. They operate just south of the border, here in Ireland. And no
one on that property wanted to talk to us. They referred us to a law firm who would not say who exactly rented that trailer out.
But they did say that it was fitted with a GPS tracking system that cannot be turned off by the person using that trailer, or at least cannot be shut
off very easily. They said that that data has been turned over -- excuse me -- to police -- Hala.
GORANI: All right. Scott McLean, thanks very much, in Northern Ireland.
Still to come tonight, Russia and Syria have beefed up forces on Syria's border with Turkey. Apologies. We'll take you live to the region for more
on what this means for the Kurds and the civilians in that area.
I'll also speak to the NATO secretary-general, Jens Stoltenberg.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:07]
GORANI: Boeing is promising to address safety recommendations as Indonesia makes its final report on last year's fatal crash of a Lion Air flight.
Indonesian investigators are blaming the crash on Boeing, the U.S. Aviation Authorities as well as errors by flight crews.
The lead investigator is calling it a new type of accident due to computerized aircraft. All 189 people on board, you'll remember, died when
that Lion Air crashed into the Java Sea roughly a year ago.
Richard Quest joins me now live from New York.
And what more -- I mean, what are we learning that will, in this report, that will help investigators in the future and help the aviation industry
avoid this type of accident in the future?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: I think the two main areas, the first is the design and execution of new technology which Boeing singularly
seem to have failed in terms of the way they introduced this MCAS, this new system that was designed to push the nose down if the plane was at risk of
falling out to the sky from a stall.
The idea was good. The way it was designed was dreadful. And the way pilots weren't told about it or that it was executed was even worse.
That's on the Boeing FAA's side. They should have known. They should have realized that this wasn't really fit for purpose.
Because pilots didn't know about it. And on the other side, Hala, pilots simply weren't able to deal with the information they were being given and
that's of that training.
There were so many errors here that come from the airline itself, from Lion Air, whose pilots didn't report previous incidents of mistakes to the
flight crew on the day who were qualified legally and technically but did not have the flying skills necessary. The airmanship is the word that
people will use to handle this. So there are lessons absolutely plenty from what happened.
GORANI: And what about Boeing? What is -- because it's this model aircraft is still out of service, what is it saying about all this?
QUEST: Boeing is saying -- has learned the lessons. Boeing has already said that it has changed the software on MCAS. So for instance, it will
now take -- it will now require both sensors to initiate it. It will only initiate once.
And most important of all, Hala, it will never initiate forces greater than a pilot pulling on a stick can count to man.
But that begs the question, why did this ever get so bad? And that's the real issue where Boeing is concerned. How did their design and manufacture
of these crucial important systems deviate from their values and principles to such an extent that they effectively design something that was
dangerous?
GORANI: What about passengers? Ordinary passengers who want to be reassured? Can they be?
GORANI: Yes, absolutely. For the simple reason that -- there were some people who say that this plane should never been designed because it's an
old airframe with new engines and it would never work. I don't buy that.
This plane is perfectly safe with the necessary safety net for that being put in place. And there is no question that once these are in place,
tested, and the plane goes back into air.
Now, look, Hala, they may have to rebrand it. They may have to give another name. They may have to tweak something else because the flying
public can be very skittish when you get to these sort of environments.
But if you are asking me, after these changes are put in place, would I have any fear about flying in the Max? The answer is no. Absolutely not.
GORANI: All right. Richard Quest, thanks very much. We'll see you at the top of the hour on "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS."
Now, to developments on the Turkish/Syrian border. Hundreds more Russian military police are now on the ground inside Syria. Starting next week,
Russian and Turkish forces will start to patrol a 10-kilometer strip of land in northeast Syria. It's the same region where all those American
troops has been deployed for years, along with their former Kurdish allies. That's now being occupied by a different force.
Well, Russia said the peace plan, as they're calling it, reached by Putin and Turkish president, Erdogan was going ahead smoothly, the SDF forces
accused Turkey of instead launching a large land offensive in Northeast Syria despite a truce forcing thousands of civilians to flee.
And also, add to all of that this development. CNN is learning that the U.S. military is drawing up plans to deploy tanks into eastern Syria for
the first time to protect oil fields, and that involves ground troops. Tanks just don't roll in on their own, usually.
Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from Erbil, Iraq with more.
[14:35:02]
This U.S. -- this reported U.S. plan to move tanks into Syria, talk to us about that.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, it's extraordinary how a month ago, the U.S. president in Syria was
relatively simple. We knew who the allies were. We knew that they had a mechanism with the Turkish to prevent a Turkish incursion.
Now, it has become unbelievably complicated. Yet, still, the messaging from President Donald Trump is one of success, how it's going really well.
Now, they find themselves U.S. troops no longer able to move freely in the Northeastern areas of Syria, that's where the Russian military are right
now.
We've seen pictures today of them moving pretty much westwards with free movement towards the Turkish controlled area, patrolling that border
already.
We know the Syrian regime is in force in many areas where they used to be freedom movement of Americans. The Americans are now in the southeastern
pocket near some oil fields where, as you said yourself, there are reports that they will be joined by armored, possibly armored vehicles, maybe tanks
to embellish, to reinforce their security there.
Because they are somewhat cutoff into 200 to 300 numbers from the rest of the force. It's meant to continue the ISIS mission here in Iraqi-Kurdistan
in Northern Iraq where the government said they think they put force here is just passing through on its way out.
So we've gone from a simple American mission that was tying up that sort of trail ends, if you like, of ISIS and trying to keep the peace between the
Turks and the Syrian Kurds, and now we have basically fell out war between Turkish and the proxy forces, and the Syrian Kurds with Russia and Ankara
being the peacemakers in all of this. An incredibly complicated job the U.S. troops here. One which will essentially see, potentially, even more
American resources deployed, totally in contradiction to Donald Trump's continued message, even today, that they're bringing the troops home, Hala.
GORANI: And in the meantime in the northern part of Syria, these joint Turkey/Russia patrols, how are those going to work?
WALSH: Well, that's next week's issue. And we have another deadline coming up on Tuesday, which is when, according to the Ankara -- sorry, the
Sochi mechanism established between Russia and Turkey, the Syrian Kurds are supposed to have pulled their weapons and fighters 30 kilometers back from
the border. We don't know how well that's going and we don't, frankly, know who ever monitors. That is going to have provide and transparent
results.
We do know starting Tuesday that that should have occurred and at that point, Turkey and Russia conduct these joint patrols in that 10-kilometer
stretch. Enormous amount of territory, frankly, and also a mechanism which is identical that they wish they have with the United States just over a
month ago. Now, that's a key flashpoint.
I should tell you one other thing, Hala, that we're seeing two, of course, concern over ISIS detainees.
Now, a few days ago, American officials told me that most of them were still being held by the Syrian Kurds and relative safe. We do know the
possibility as many as hundreds over this last chaotic two to three weeks may have escaped detention.
I spoke to European intelligence officials today who said they were very worried indeed about potential escapees or possibly these detention
facilities falling into the hands of the Syrian regime, not friends of Europe all the west after the bloody Syrian civil war.
Intelligence officials said to me, they're worried about three things, the possibility the regime if they've got their hands on these ISIS fighters
motivates them train people. They could put them on planes back to their home countries, maybe in Europe. They might detain them disclose them
possibly.
But there was a third more troubling option which is they might possibly the Syrian regime try possibly weaponize these radical fighters,
essentially use them in possible attacks against Europe or elsewhere.
Now, obviously, ISIS is always suffering from a lack of infrastructure, always been amateur its operations to some degree when it tried to attack
European capitals all the west, but often horrifyingly successful.
Obviously, this intelligence official is deeply concerned about the idea of actually having a government backing up attacks like that. That could
render them significantly more troubling.
This is, of course, a threat they're accessing, not something they've seen happened yet, but still a sign of how bad this could get for the country's
mirror Middle East, Europe because of America's changing policy. Hala.
GORANI: All right. Nick Paton Walsh in Erbil.
Turkey is a member of NATO, of course, its military operations though have been, despite that fact widely condemned by many of its NATO allies.
The actions of President Erdogan is seen as triggering. A new humanitarian crisis in the long Syrian conflict as well as enabling a resurgence of
ISIS.
I spoke with NATO Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg, a little bit earlier at a meeting of NATO defense ministers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENS STOLTENBERG, SECRETARY GENERAL, NATO: While allies criticize Turkey and I also in Istanbul, not many days ago, expressed my deep concerns about
the consequences of the Turkish incursion. Allies also discussed how they could make sure that we keep the momentum or maintain the progress we have
made in the fight against ISIS.
Not many months ago, ISIS or Daesh controlled a territory as big as United Kingdom, millions of people, and all this territory, all these people are
now being liberated and just hope we make sure that we don't jeopardize that progress.
[14:40:01]
GORANI: The U.S. Defense Secretary in Brussels says Turkey put NATO allies in an awkward position, essentially. But isn't it the Trump administration
that on October 6th, when they issued the statement that read, Turkey will soon be moving forward with its long operation into northern Syria. Isn't
it the U.S. that greenlit the operation that got us to the place where we are today?
STOLTENBERG: Some of its allies, and especially the United States, they have been on the ground in northern Syria for some time. But at least they
are there -- the reason why they went in was to fight ISIS. This has never been announced as the kind of long term presence.
At the same time, what we see now is the need to try to find a long-term and sustainable political solution. Therefore, NATO's strongest supporter,
the U.N. efforts to find the long-term political solution and, of course, we welcome at least some signs and steps in the right direction that we've
seen over the last days.
GORANI: But this is the U.S. position that it was never there a long-term plan to stay in northern Syria. The president of the United States was a
lot less charitable calling Kurds no angels and saying that they want no place in this fight on this bloodstain sand.
But isn't it the case that the president of Turkey is using refugees, that he's hosting as leverage against Europe and that this is giving him a very
strong hand? He even said on October 10th, hey, European Union, come to your senses, look out. We'll say this once again. If you try to label our
current operation as an occupation, our job becomes easier. We will open the doors and send the 3.6 million refugees to you.
Do you believe that Erdogan is threatening Europe with refugees?
STOLTENBERG: NATO and the European allies have criticized Turkey and I also -- can I say to that, disagree with Turkey when it comes to some of
the messages that had related to how to deal with the migrants and refugees --
GORANI: But this is a threat, Secretary General, this is a threat from President Erdogan of using refugees against Europe.
STOLTENBERG: And European allies have also responded to that. At the same time, European allies and NATO allies, have clearly stated that they
understand that Turkey had some security concerns. They are on the front line of a very volatile region. No other NATO ally have suffered more ties
to Turkey. And no other NATO ally hosts more refugees from Syria.
And therefore, we just have to sit down, try to find a way out of this challenges and problems and crisis, and NATO plays a role also when it
comes to the refugee migrant crisis by helping to implement the agreement between Turkey and the European Union.
GORANI: Are NATO allies not dismay that the U.S. action of withdrawing these troops in Northern Syria that led to this Turkish incursion have
essentially gifted large parts of Syria to the Assad regime, to its Russian backers, but essentially NATO allies, especially France, Germany, the U.K.,
the United States that work hand in hand with the Kurds have now basically withdrawn and are in a situation where Russia is in control of large parts
of Syria.
Are they not dismayed at the end results of all of this?
STOLTENBERG: Well, we have opened discussions about these issues and you can just see through their public statements that allies have different
views on decisions taken regarding the situation in Northern Syria.
At the same time, we were also looking forward what can do and what can we do to build on, at least, the progress we have seen, the steps and the
right direction we have seen over the last days.
Reduction in violence is important. Reduced tensions is important. And for instance, German minister of defense, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer, she
preferred also for kind of national safe zone, more international engagement in the region in Northern Syria. And that was the idea that
was, in a way, welcomed. Not because anyone thinks that's easy way forward, it's a quick fix, but it's, at least, a proposal and way forward
that we need to look into.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: At least a proposal. Thanks to Jens Stoltenberg for speaking to us earlier, the NATO secretary general.
Still to come tonight, the E.U. is considering that Brexit extension. Will it granted and how long will it be?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:45:50]
GORANI: E.U. ambassadors are putting off their decision on a Brexit extension until next week, so we'll have to wait. Though the 27
ambassadors did agree in principle to that extension at their meeting today, and the British Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, meantime, is calling
for a general election on December 12th. However for a vote to happen, he needs the House of Commons to approve it. So therefore, he needs the
opposition Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn, to agree.
Here's what the prime minister said earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: What I'm saying to the Labour Party, to Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party is that they have the
opportunity now to get this thing done. Time for Corbyn to man up, let's have an election on December the 12th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Corbyn says he could agree to an election, but only if a no-deal Brexit is off the table, and if the vote takes place before what Mr.
Johnson proposed.
CNN's international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson, joins me now.
So a couple of important questions here. First one, the E.U. and principle they're going to extend. Do we know by how much?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: We don't. That's in the ballot. The French in particular we understand, a reticent to give too
much. They were reticent to give an extension last time it was given. So, this time, I think they want to try to set some boundaries.
GORANI: Are they just playing hardball at this point, maybe, negotiating?
ROBERTSON: They're playing hardball. The legal deadline, yes. In a way. But I don't see how that's going to work. Because the next step of what
happens in Britain, as you just outlined, is that vote on Monday for Boris Johnson's extension for talks and then the election.
GORANI: He wants an election on December 12th.
ROBERTSON: He does. But part of it, as well as giving us slightly longer time to negotiate or to talk through parliament and set the legislation for
the withdrawal agreement itself.
But if you're Jeremy Corbyn who have said very clearly, not until you take the no-deal off the table. But if you're the leader of the opposition, why
would you do a super short negotiation, which you fundamentally opposed to because you'd end up conceding on a lot of things and then you would be
conceding to what the prime minister wants to do which is -- which is have a general election on his terms.
And sort of there's a double whammy there, there's a double reason why they wouldn't rush into it.
GORANI: We're not expecting parliament to approve this election.
ROBERTSON: So we're not -- so what does that -- what does that look like? That looks like a lack of clarity the European Union was looking for. The
E.U., just yesterday, was sort of on the verge of announcing what extension they would give. But then Boris Johnson announced his idea of an election
and suddenly that lack of clarity -- that clarity evaporates.
So on Monday, assuming things go as they are right now, there will be no agreement. Boris Johnson won't get that sign-off on the December the 12th
election, and the E.U. won't get their clarity. And three days later, Britain still legally bound to lead the European Union.
GORANI: So incredibly, it will be murkier Monday than it is today.
ROBERTSON: It's hard to imagine, but that's how it looks right now. Obviously, there's time for political maturation over the weekend. But
that's the real point here. It is big, it is real political maneuvering between Jeremy Corbyn and the prime minister.
[14:50:05]
And that's why Jeremy Corbyn was on daytime T.V., on what you might call a sort of a soft settee morning time program, because that's ideal for
getting to the vote, that he doesn't normally reach.
GORANI: No, he doesn't.
Thank you very -- and who wants a Christmas election? Not the British people. I think they're exhausted.
ROBERTSON: Not a prime minister in recent history. The last one was 1923 and it went to a hung Parliament. So, who would want an election in
December?
GORANI: Nic Robertson, thanks very much.
More to come, including bidding farewell to a political giant. We'll tell you all about the funeral of longtime House Democrat, Elijah Cummings.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GORANI: In the U.S., the opioid crisis shows no mercy. It doesn't discriminate and often it leaves users facing harsh punishment for their
addiction.
But police in the U.S. State of Alabama are taking a more compassionate approach. CNN's Martin Savidge tells us how one department is helping
those struggling with addiction free of charge.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's what police officer, Christopher Samya didn't do that day in Sumiton, Alabama that's remarkable.
CHRISTOPHER SAMYA, SUMITON POLICE OFFICER: It was early Sunday morning, around 5:00 a.m. maybe.
SAVIDGE: On the frontlines of the opioid crisis, in a county with the highest rate of drug overdoses in the state, he's seen a lot in his 20
years on patrol.
SAMYA: We worked more heroin overdoses than I can count.
SAVIDGE: When he found a 35-year-old woman at a gas station, disoriented and clearly at rock bottom, he sat on the ground next to her and talked.
SAMYA: She had confessed that she had been using drugs and that she had been using drugs for quite some time and she was going through just a tough
time in life.
SAVIDGE: He could have arrested her. He didn't.
SAMYA: All my instincts told me that she needed help more than she needed jail.
SAVIDGE: That's how an addict came to know mercy. The Mercy Project helps those struggling with addiction get into state or faith-based treatment
programs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to help you with your journey until you get on your feet. We want to invest in you.
SAVIDGE: It's the brain child of Walker County Sheriff, Nick Smith. Deputy TJ Armstrong manages the program.
TJ ARMSTRONG, DEPUTY, WALKER COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: It's starting to understand a little bit more that it's not about just trying to lock people
up, but it's about actually helping that individual, especially in small towns.
SAVIDGE: The service is free for any Alabama resident.
Amanda Cole is one of the 45 people the program's rescued since January.
AMANDA COLE, PARTICIPANT, MERCY PROJECT: I've been wanting to get help probably for the past two years.
SAVIDGE: Now, her two children have their mother back.
Officer Samya doesn't yet know what the future holds for the woman he helped.
SAVIDGE (on camera): Would you do it again?
SAMYA: I sure would.
SAVIDGE: No question?
SAMYA: Without thinking twice.
SAVIDGE (voice over): But he's glad to have a new policing approach where officers can listen and offer mercy.
Martin Savidge, CNN, Sumiton, Alabama.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: That's really interesting story there from Alabama.
Thanks, Martin Savidge.
[14:55:59]
He thundered against injustice, he strove to give a voice to the voiceless, and he did not stop fighting for a better America. This is just some of
the ways Elijah Cummings, a lion of Congress and lifelong civil rights activist, is being remembered today.
Friends, family, and dignitaries from across the political spectrum attended his funeral in Baltimore. Former president Barack Obama said that
the best way to respect Cummings' legacy is to live it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It now falls on us to continue his work. So that other young boys and girls in Baltimore, across
Maryland, across the United States and around the world, might too have a chance to grow and to flourish. That's how we will honor him. That's how
we will remember him. That's what he would hope for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: As chairman of a powerful House committee, Cummings often criticized what he considered President Donald Trump's abusive power. He
spent the last months of his life warning Americans that their democracy was at stake, literally begging them to wake up and step up to defend it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D-MD): When we're dancing with the angels, the question will be asked, in 2019, what do we do to make sure we keep our
democracy intact? Did we stand on the sidelines and say nothing?
I'm begging the American people to pay attention to what is going on, because if you want to have a democracy intact for your children and your
children's children and generations not unborn, we have got to guard this moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Elijah Cummings, U.S. representative was 68 years old.
I'm Hala Gorani. Thanks for watching. If it's your weekend, have a great one. Stay with CNN, a lot more ahead. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is coming
your way.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
