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S.E. Cupp Unfiltered

Democrats Plan To Take Impeachment Inquiry Public After Vote; Democrats Balance Impeachment Ahead Of 2020; Trump Campaign Embraces Impeachment; Moody's: Trump Likely To Win Reelection; Latest Iowa Poll Shows Tight Race Among Four Candidates; Buttigieg Adopts Moderate Tone As Poll Numbers Rise; Buttigieg: Anyone In This Race Assumes Biden Is Not The Unstoppable Front-Runner; Fox News Reporter, Catherine Herridge Leaves For CBS; Trump Wants To Read Ukraine Call In Fireside Chat. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired November 02, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:00:00]

S.E. CUPP, CNN HOST: Welcome to UNFILTERED.

Here's tonight's headline. It's official. The impeachment inquiry was formalized with a vote in the House this week despite the fact that such a vote was constitutionally unnecessary, despite the fact that House rules implemented by a Republican majority back in 2015 don't require such a vote.

Leading up to the vote, it was yet another week of damning testimony from career diplomats ask national security officials, including both non-partisan and political appointees. The top Ukraine expert on the National Security Council, Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, told House investigators he was concerned President Trump was blocking $400 million in aid to Ukraine to force that country to publicly announce an investigation into Joe Biden, according to two sources familiar with his deposition.

And when he raised concerns about the transcript of the now infamous July 25th call between President Trump and the Ukrainian president, he was told to keep quiet by the National Security Council's top legal adviser.

An aide to former National Security Adviser John Bolton, Tim Morrison, supported previous testimony about how long the effort to block military aid had been going on. He confirmed an attempted quid pro quo but said he did not view the July phone call as illegal. He did however, ask the same NSC lawyer to review it.

No surprise, the president is putting that nugget in the win column. But complaints about the process of impeachment were answered by Democrats with the formal guidelines this week which mean we could get testimony transcripts as early as next week and public hearings in a couple of weeks.

Now, as for what happens next, here's the deal. Impeachment is both a practical and a political process. Keep that in mind as we move forward here. So, practically, the conclusion is fairly straightforward and looks inevitable. The House, controlled by majority Democrats, will likely vote to impeach the president. Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats might say no one comes to Congress to impeach a president, but that's not technically true. I can think of at least a couple who ran on wanting to impeach the president. One even used colorful language to describe what she was going to do to him.

Okay, so we can also practically conclude that the Senate, which will serve as jurors in the trial of the president, and is made up of majority Republicans, will likely not vote to convict and remove the president. So he'll likely be right where he when is this is all said and done. Okay, that's the practical part of impeachment.

What we don't yet know is how the politics of impeachment will shake out for Trump, for Democrats and Republicans in Congress, and for the 2020 contenders. That is still a huge question mark. Will impeachment help Trump? Will it damage him? If this drags on through to 2020, will it hurt Democratic presidential candidates? Will it hurt swing state candidates in districts Trump won?

There are some early warning signs, some things we do know. Two Democrats voted against the formal impeachment rules this week. They are both from districts Trump won by double digits. Not a single House Republican voted for it. That's not that surprising. But what will Republican senators do?

Some are starting to shift off Trump's talking point that there was no quid pro quo and are admitting, yes, there was a quid pro quo, but that it's not illegal, as Senators John Kennedy and Ted Cruz reportedly said in a private GOP lunch this week. That's not great for Trump.

Now, what about voters? Remember them? Well, the latest Washington Post/ABC News poll shows 49 percent support impeachment and removal right now and 47 percent are opposed. That's a real slim majority. And independents are reversed, actually. 47 percent support, 49 percent oppose. That should be troubling for Democrats.

Throw on top of all of that, there's potentially a government shutdown looming on the horizon, which could delay the impeachment process even further. And that benefits Trump. There's no way to tell yet how the politics of impeachment will shake out.

Speaker Nancy Pelosi was careful this week not to overstate their position, saying, I do think we have enough, we've had enough for a very long time, but as long as there is corroboration, we might as well get to see some more, and then we'll see.

So following these two tracks, the practical and the political, let's break them both down. First we start with the practical.

[18:05:00]

Joining me now is Congressman -- Democratic Congressman from California and member of the House Oversight Committee, Ro Khanna. Congressman, thanks for joining me.

What do you think of this week's vote accomplished practically?

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Well, it sent a clear message that the House Democrats are unified in seeing that the president abused his office by pressuring Zelensky to investigate a political rival, Joe Biden. Joe Biden was up in the polls, Joe Biden is the candidate that the White House has said they most fear, and this was the president's effort to tarnish him. And most people who look at that say it's wrong, and it's unconstitutional.

CUPP: So it sent an almost unified message, I'm sure you're aware, two Democrats in Trump districts, Jeff Van Drew in New Jersey, Collin Peterson in Minnesota, they broke ranks with your party. Does that indicate at least some Democrats are concerned that there will be a political cost to this?

KHANNA: Not really, S.E., because there were so many Democrats in Trump districts, in Iowa, in Michigan, in Virginia, where Trump carried the district by ten points who voted for the impeachment inquiry. So, obviously, when you have a caucus that is 230-odd members, you're going to lose one or two votes.

But it's remarkable how unified we actually were, and that wouldn't have been the case a couple months ago.

CUPP: So President Trump has already been damaged by this. A new poll, 66 percent of people say he's acted in a way that's unpresidential. But in that same poll, some bad news for Democrats, Congressman. Views of the Democrats' handling of the inquiry tilt negative. 50 percent disapprove of the way Democrats have handled this, 43 percent approve. Pelosi's approval is also underwater.

I know you think that this is important no matter what the polls say, no matter what the political consequences, I get that. But the political consequences might not be theoretical. What if Democrats lose the House because of it?

KHANNA: I don't think we will, S.E. Let me tell you what I think the polls are saying. Most Americans believe that the president's conduct was wrong and there was an abuse of office. But there's also a frustration with every branch of government because what people want is us to focus on infrastructure, on lowering the cost of prescription drugs, on education, and they feel like we're not getting anything done. And the ambivalence is reflected in the polls. They agree what the president did is wrong, but they want us to actually do things that are going to improve people's lives.

And that's the candidly challenge for Democrats. We have to do our constitutional responsibility, but we have to be focused on our positive agenda and convince people that our priority really is fixing problems in their everyday lives.

CUPP: So when -- do you know when the public hearings will begin? And part two, are you concerned that there will be a circus with everyone watching? KHANNA: I believe they're going to begin before Thanksgiving. I hope that we have a vote before the end of the year. I agree with Columnist David Brooks, that we need to get this process over with, a vote to impeach, put it in the Senate, and then come out with our positive agenda in 2020. And we to do it in a dignified way, it needs to be evidence-focused and a few witnesses, not going on into a circus, as you put it.

CUPP: Well, let's talk about some of those key witnesses and who they might be. I know Democrats really want to talk to Don McGahn, the president's former White House Counsel. On Thursday, a federal judge questioned the DOJ argument that McGahn is immune from testifying. So we'll have to wait and see where that goes. But what would you want to hear from him specifically, if he is forced to testify?

KHANNA: Well, with Don McGahn, there is questions about the president's obstruction of justice, not just in the case of Ukraine but also in the case with the whole Mueller investigation. But I believe that the most critical witness would be Ambassador Taylor. The public testimony is that Ambassador Taylor had knowledge of the call, he can testify that Rudy Giuliani basically was conducting an operation in Ukraine compromising our national security to advance the president's re-election agenda, and that they were withholding aid unless Zelensky announced a public investigation against Biden.

I think we have to keep it simple. We have to keep it focused on that national security breach and have a few witnesses who will corroborate that, and then vote and put this on the Senate.

CUPP: Congressman Ro Khanna, always good to have you, thanks so much.

KHANNA: Thank you, S.E.

CUPP: OK, impeachment is almost inevitable. How the Democratic Party handles that with voters could have decisive impacts come 2020. It's just around the corner.

And the president's campaign is actually banking on impeachment being a political win for him, for leaning into it. Could they be right? All of that still to come.

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[18:10:00]

CUPP: The president's opponents may be celebrating this week after House Democrats voted to move forward on impeachment, but it's important to remember that impeachment itself is a political act, not a legal one.

So we talked about the process. Let's now discuss the politics. Barring defections by a dozen or so Senate Republicans voting to convict the president of a crime, an unlikely prospect, given the president working his behind the scenes this week, meeting with nine GOP senators at the White House, reportedly using campaign cash as both a carrot and a stick for senators facing re-election, and heeding the advice of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell to lay off the Twitter attacks on senators whose votes he may need. This might not be the slam dunk Democrats are hoping for.

As Senator David Perdue reportedly said this week, the president knows this is dead on arrival in the Senate.

So for swing and red state Democrats, like Senator Doug Jones of Alabama, things are more perilous. Jones will have to choose between voting to convict the president, potentially alienating voters in his state and voting against conviction and alienating his party, not an enviable position, and he's not alone.

Presidential candidates aren't in the clear either. Highly partisan nature of the congressional vote and the likelihood of being cleared in the senate will allow President Trump to claim that he's been exonerated, that see, I did nothing wrong, this whole thing has been nothing but another partisan witch hunt.

[18:15:09]

Democrats are taking their shot at the king as the saying goes.

Okay. Here to discuss the potential political fallout of the impeachment process is former Virginia Governor, former DNC Chairman Terry McAuliffe. Welcome.

First, Governor, let's agree, you and I, to stipulate, you believe the reason most Democrats are pursuing impeachment is because they think it's the right thing to do, and they're upholding their constitutional duties in doing so. And I agree with that decision to pursue impeachment too. But you know as well as I do, better, in fact, because you went through this as a Clinton friend, that the politics is real. In Clinton's case, his approval numbers actually went up. Democrats gained seats in the House in the 1998 midterms. Tell me why this go-round is different.

TERRY MCAULIFFE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first off, you go back to the Clinton impeachment, no one for one day did not think that Bill Clinton got out of bed every single day fighting for them. And that's a huge difference. Also, this is a malfeasance in office. This is trying to bring a foreign government into our domestic political situation. This is an abuse of office for personal political game. So, S.E., there's a huge difference.

But I could tell you, we have elections in three days in Virginia. And I can tell you, folks are motivated. This is an off, off year election. I've never seen anything like it. I was at a huge rally last night in Stafford County, Virginia, for Josh Cole, Jess Foster, Qasim Rashid. A huge crowd turned out. People are motivated because this president has abused his office, and there's a huge difference in that.

CUPP: Okay. So earlier, just before you, I spoke to a Democratic congressman, Ro Khanna, who said that he wasn't worried about the political cost of this for Democrats, that he didn't think Democrats would lose the House in 2020. Do you think it's worth it even if it does wrest control of Congress back to Republicans?

MCAULIFFE: Well, I think the issue, first of all, is there's overwhelming evidence now. You have obviously Ambassador Taylor and others who have come out, the malfeasance in office, the abuse of office, that is clear. And I've got to tell you. I find this so offensive that Republicans have now seen and heard this evidence, and they don't believe there should be any investigation at all.

And think about that for a second. They just don't believe he should be investigated. And that's not the way our country is set up, it's not the way our democracy was founded, it's not the way the Constitution says we need to do it. There's clear evidence, no question.

And you think back over the years we've been through Republican control of the Congress with their foolish investigations. We went on for months and months about Benghazi. We went on and talked about Hillary's emails, which now report comes out she was totally vindicated. So this is a different standard.

But the idea that the Republicans don't think there should even be an investigation is laughable, it's sad, and it's motivating Democrats.

CUPP: I agree with you. But what I asked was what if this, right as though it may be, and a constitutional duty to pursue this investigation, and I agree with you about Republicans, but what if it wrests control of Congress back to Republicans? Will it be worth it?

MCAULIFFE: Absolutely, you have to do your constitutional duty. Listen, I give Speaker Pelosi tremendous credit. She waited a very, very long time. And she wanted to see and make sure that the evidence was clear. And at that point, when it was clear, she decided to move ahead. I give her tremendous credit. I mean, we had this phone call. We had people corroborate. We had people who were on the phone. You even had the national security adviser, John Bolton, referring to it as a drug deal and telling folks working for him, you need to go talk to the legal counsel. I mean, it is crystal clear, S.E.

So you've got to do what you have to do in your job. You took the oath of office. You put your hand up to defend the Constitution of the United States. And the chips are going to fall where they may. But I can tell you, having done 123 events in the last couple of months in Virginia, I have never seen crowds -- people have had it with Trump, they've had it with the criminality of Trump, and he is motivating our base to come out.

CUPP: Well, so let's talk about -- yes, let's talk about the presidential candidates.

MCAULIFFE: Sure.

CUPP: Most of them, with the exception of Joe Biden, have tried to sort of cordon off their campaigns and stay away from the oxygen- sucking impeachment extravaganza. Biden has leaned into it more. Which approach do you think is best or is it maybe different for each candidate? MCAULIFFE: Well, I think most of them have come out and obviously have said, we support the impeachment hearings. Obviously Vice President Biden is in the middle of it.

CUPP: That's right.

MCAULIFFE: Because what the president was trying to do was to get a foreign leader to interfere because Joe Biden was up in the polls against him.

CUPP: Exactly.

MCAULIFFE: So this is a huge opportunity for Joe Biden. But all the other candidates are out there.

But S.E., as you know, the hard part for some of the lesser-known candidates, it has taken up a lot of oxygen, it's made it hard for other candidates to break through. And I think what you're going to see, you saw Beto, it just happened, he pulled out of the race.

[18:20:02]

You just run out of money and you can't continue. And I think you're going to see a lot more folks, you've heard about office closings. We're going to now get down to four, five, have a real serious about date on these issues.

But we've got to talking about job creation, something I did every day as governor, lowering prescription drug costs, what do we about infrastructure. And that's what we Democrats, we really have got to focus on, because that's what the public cares about each and every day.

CUPP: So I know that's what a lot of Democratic candidates want to talk about. But I'm just imagining a general election debate stage if Trump agrees to debate, and I'm not sure that he's going to. But let's pretend he agrees to debate and the Democratic nominee is Joe Biden or Elizabeth Warren, or name your candidate. And Trump is up there saying, they tried to impeach me and they couldn't do it. They tried to overrule voters, you guys, they couldn't do it. I mean, that's persuasive, no?

MCAULIFFE: Well, I think, clearly, he will be impeached. I mean, there's no question, he will be impeached in the House of Representatives.

CUPP: But not removed, probably.

MCAULIFFE: But not removed. I think it would be very hard to get those senators. But let's see. When the evidence comes out, you may see that dam break. I think it probably -- and these Republicans don't even think we should have an investigation.

CUPP: I know.

MCAULIFFE: They are terrified of Donald Trump that he's going to get on Twitter and he will get primary opponents against those senators that are supporting.

CUPP: I hear you.

MCAULIFFE: They're terrified of him. They took an oath of office. They ought to fight for the country, not for themselves.

CUPP: All right. Former Head of the DNC, Governor of Virginia, Terry McAuliffe, thanks so much for coming back on.

MCAULIFFE: Thank you.

CUPP: Yes. I appreciate it.

Okay. Let's be clear, the president is worried about this, and he should be. His campaign, however, is making lemonade out of lemons. Will it work?

And 2020 Democrats find themselves in the first of nation State of Iowa this weekend where fortunes are taking an interesting turn. I'll explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:25:00]

CUPP: Welcome back.

You've heard the expression it takes a village to raise a child. Well, for Republicans, it apparently takes a jerk to change Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Democrats would rather focus on impeachment and phony investigations, ignoring the real issues, but that's not stopping Donald Trump. He's no Mr. Nice Guy, but sometimes it takes a Donald Trump to change Washington.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: That was a new ad for Trump embracing the obvious that many people don't like him. But, again, according to the ad, they might like his record, record low unemployment, growth in manufacturing jobs, dead ISIS leaders. If that ad is a preview of the president's re-election strategy, you don't have to like him to re-elect him, how will that go over with voters?

My panel joins me now to discuss, just a couple of all-stars here, CNN Political Commentators, former White House Press Secretary Joe Lockhart, and former Media Adviser for George W. Bush's presidential campaign, Mark McKinnon. Welcome.

Mark, I've got to be honest, you know I am no fan of the president's. I saw that ad, I thought, Democrats are in trouble. What do you think? MARK MCKINNON, HOST, SHOWTIME'S "THE CIRCUS": Yes, it's really strong and it's effective. Because he's saying what people think anyway and he's saying that, basically, I'm willing to bend the rules to get stuff done for you. By the way, that's not just a good re-election ad, that's a good message about impeachment. Because he's saying, listen, yes, I bent the rules, but in the end I'm getting stuff for you. It's kind of a Robin Hood thing. It's like I'm a bad guy, but I'm your bad guy.

CUPP: Right, no, I thought it was really effective.

Joe, it's looking like Trump is going to sort of lean into impeachment instead of doing what your old boss did, which was sort of avoid it completely, focus on the agenda. He's doing the opposite. What do you think?

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean, listen, a good campaign works with what they have. And what they have is Donald Trump, who's obsessed with this. So the idea that they would run a campaign on the tax cut --

CUPP: Right, right, right.

LOCKHART: -- regulations, judges is absurd.

I think one of the interesting things here is that you've got the Congress, you've got the White House, who are flailing around to find a message. And the only people who have a message is just the Trump campaign, and that is -- whether that ad will be enough to overpower all this information that's coming about, coming out about it, is one thing. But it is a strategy and it's the only strategy that can be consistently executed over time.

MCKINNON: It's a little bit like Bush 2004 too. Because we were not as popular as Kerry, people didn't agree with our positions necessarily. But it's like you know what we believe. You know? You may not agree with us, but you know where we are.

CUPP: And doesn't this also kind of neutralize a Democratic point, that Trump is divisive and Trump is scandalous and controversial?

MCKINNON: Yes, because he's saying, you've got to do that. That's the only way to get stuff in Washington. You knew that when you elected me. I'm going to go break stuff to get stuff done.

LOCKHART: But there is a fine line here between breaking the rules and breaking china to get things done, and breaking the law.

CUPP: Yes.

LOCKHART: And they -- again, you work with what you have. And I think they've done a nice job here with what they have.

I'm not as confident that somehow this is sort of a killer strategy because we're just going to go through two months, the next two months, finding out a lot of information that might overwhelm this kind of campaign.

CUPP: Well, so what they also have is a lot of money. And Trump is using it, reportedly, to reward good senators for defending him against impeachment. I guess you could see that as a sign of Trump's own weakness, that he's got to pay members of his own party to support him and really defend the indefensible. How do you see that?

MCKINNON: Well, I'll say this. Donald Trump came into office as not a politician, right? And yet while in office, he has been one of the most muscular politicians in history in terms of just raw power, just burning people, if you're not with me, I'm going to take you out.

CUPP: Yes, yes, yes. So this is in keeping with that. What do you make of it?

LOCKHART: Yes. This is a political process. So for people who wring their hands over sort of trying to influence the jurors, come on, it's politics, you do what you have to do.

The one thing is I wouldn't overestimate the impact of Trump's money in totality, because there's going to be a lot of Democratic money.

CUPP: Yes, once it consolidates, yes.

LOCKHART: Where I think it's interesting is Trump's early money, because while Democrats are all running around trying to promote themselves, he's trying to define the Democrats as a whole.

[18:30:08]

And I'll go back since Mark went back to 2000, I'll go back to '96. You'll remember that the ad campaign that Bill Clinton ran started in 1995. And because he shored up his positives that were under attack from the '94 debacle midterm elections.

CUPP: Yes.

LOCKHART: And by the time we got to 1996 and Bob Dole could turn to Clinton, the public felt very positively about him.

CUPP: Mark, according to three different models that Moody's Analytics uses to measure presidential contests, based on how consumers feel about their own financial situations, Trump is likely to win reelection. Now, that model has only missed one presidential election since 1980 and that was 2016. What do you think?

MCKINNON: I think the only surprise is that with the economy of where it is that he's not winning by 20 points.

CUPP: Way ahead, yes.

MCKINNON: So that says how much the anchors on his character are pulling him down?

CUPP: Well, is it really going to be, Joe, all about the economy?

LOCKHART: I don't so. I think it's going to be all about Trump.

CUPP: Yes.

LOCKHART: And the thing about Trump, just echoing what Mark said, is all of the models are useless that he literally broke the mold.

MCKINNON: There's no Trump model.

CUPP: Now, thrown away.

LOCKHART: And it really is staggering that within an economy which, by the way, is slowing.

CUPP: Yes.

LOCKHART: But you go back a year and the economy was going well, that he was still sitting around 40 percent in job approval and it's hard to see that translating, using the models into a reelection, but there are no models anymore.

CUPP: Well, you guys stay right there. You're not going anywhere, because I'm going to have you back and we're going to move on from the President to the candidates hoping to take his place and new polling suggests still even now it's anyone's race.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:43]

CUPP: In THE RED FILE tonight, it's getting real you all. The once huge Democratic primary field is seeing some serious shifts now. Texas Congressman Beto O'Rourke announced he's dropping out last night. California Senator Kamala Harris laid off all but a handful of staffers in New Hampshire and cancel the planned swing through the state next week, instead focusing on Iowa.

Get this the Iowa caucus is now just three months away and new polling shows four candidates are neck and neck for the lead there. Mayor Pete Buttigieg has surged with 18 percent support, sits among Senators Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders along with former Vice President Joe Biden.

Buoyed by a strong debate performance, Buttigieg's poll rise has coincided with a shift in his rhetoric, something he highlighted in a speech at the Liberty and Justice dinner last night where he spoke about seeing an American majority done with division.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I've seen it in Granger, Indiana when a diner filled up with conservative Republicans protesting the deportation of a neighbor they knew to be a good man. And I'll be seeing it in a few weeks on the morning of Thanksgiving Day, because in 2019 in rural Michigan you cannot stop a man from going deer hunting with his husband's father.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: Did you hear that? He's just a regular deer-hunting, diner- going, Republican-knowing Hoosier. OK. My panel is back with me, former White House Press Secretary under President Clinton, Joe Lockhart and former John McCain advisor co-host of Showtime's The Circus Mark McKinnon.

Mark, I'll start with you because your show there made a little news this week. The episode hasn't aired but we did get to see a clip of Pete Buttigieg making some news. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You accept the notion right now that it's kind of Warren against the field, really.

BUTTIGIEG: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone is trying to become the alternative to Warren right now, right?

BUTTIGIEG: Yes, I think it's shaping up that way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so the former Vice President of the United States is like in your mind at this point already like gone?

BUTTIGIEG: I would say that either he is the unstoppable frontrunner and we can all go home or he's not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

BUTTIGIEG: And anybody who's in this race is pure on the assumption that he's not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUPP: He sort of walked those comments back a little today, but I actually agree with him. I think that's it's Warren against the field and he is a frontrunner, your thoughts?

MCKINNON: Well, he went on to say that it's a two-person race, which he probably shouldn't be saying out loud this kind of punditry practiced by a candidate which we don't really recommend.

CUPP: Yes.

LOCKHART: Yes.

MCKINNON: On the other hand, I think he's right.

CUPP: Right.

MCKINNON: I mean what we saw on Iowa this week was he is having a moment there.

CUPP: Yes. MCKINNON: He had a terrific speech last night and not only the

speech, we know he's a good orator but he had like a quarter of the arena which is a huge arena.

CUPP: Yes.

MCKINNON: I mean, way more than Biden and even more than Warren did. So he's on fire out there and ...

CUPP: Ascendant (ph) as they say.

MCKINNON: Yes, he's ascendant (ph) and --

CUPP: Joe, I said from the beginning that Buttigieg should run as the younger alternative to Biden.

LOCKHART: Right.

CUPP: He's from a conservative state. He's served. He can talk about foreign policy. He is practical, not pie in the sky. He didn't do that at first, but he's starting to do that now. Is it too late? Is it a good strategy?

LOCKHART: No, I don't think it's too late and I think it's a good strategy. If you close your eyes and listen to the speech last night, you would hear a little bit of Baraka Obama in 2008. This idea that we're one America and we have to deal with the divisions.

And I think Biden entered this race as sort of with a stranglehold on the Obama legacy, but it was a little discordant because he's older.

CUPP: Yes.

LOCKHART: He's been around awhile. He's a Washington insider. Buttigieg has got a lot of more of those things and that's why he's always been a great candidate on paper. But because, as Mark was pointing out before when we were talking, he's never had more than 80,000 votes in any election.

CUPP: Right.

LOCKHART: Untested. But I do think that he has a message that's Obama like and we're going to see whether he can speak at the alternative. The problem is I don't necessarily accept that it's Warren against the field right now.

MCKINNON: No.

LOCKHART: Because there are so many moving pieces here and for Warren, I think, to get the nomination, she's got to get some Bernie supporters. I'm not sure that's going to happen for her.

CUPP: Yes.

[18:40:00]

LOCKHART: Buttigieg's got the nomination of Biden supporters and it could be --

CUPP: She also need some African-American voters.

LOCKHART: Right. It could be at the end of this that none of those things move. Biden gets the South Carolina, African-Americans all of a sudden play the role they do in Democrats (ph) and he squeaks by and gets the nomination.

MCKINNON: And there are some other things happening in Iowa too.

LOCKHART: Yes.

CUPP: Go ahead.

MCKINNON: Klobuchar, you could sense has got some things going on out there. Harris had a very good speech last night as did Booker. So there's still hundred days and as we know, Joe, it breaks late there.

LOCKHART: Always.

CUPP: With Beto out, Buttigieg really is the only young candidate.

MCKINNON: Yes.

CUPP: Polling at more than 5 percent.

MCKINNON: He's the generational candidate.

LOCKHART: Yes.

CUPP: He really is. Is that do you think an advantage or a disadvantage for him?

MCKINNON: I think it's a huge advantage. I mean I think that millennials are fired up and ready to go and they're looking for candidate and I think that's a big part of the reason that this ...

CUPP: Not usually a reliable voting group.

MCKINNON: No, but I think they may be this time.

CUPP: But maybe, we'll see.

LOCKHART: And I don't think that a young candidate only appeals to millennials. Again, I think the great debate in the Democrats is what is the base and I think there's this conventional wisdom that the base is young people and ultra progressives, when in fact the definition of the base is what's the most reliable group of voters that sort of outnumber the rest.

And that base is African-Americans and women.

CUPP: Yes.

LOCKHART: And I think it's not just Warren or Bernie Sanders that can appeal to that group. It's Buttigieg, Klobuchar and even Joe Biden. CUPP: Well, when Buttigieg talk some sense like Medicare for All is

not practical, I think he reaches a lot of suburban moms like me. It starts sounding rational. OK, Joe Lockhart, Mark McKinnon, thanks so much for spending time with me tonight. I appreciate you both.

MCKINNON: Take it.

CUPP: Another defection at Fox News. I'll talk about the President's cable news firewall next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:46:04]

CUPP: For the second time in less than a month, a high profile journalist has left Fox News. An original at the network since its launch in 1996, Catherine Herridge is leaving to join CBS News as Senior Investigative Correspondent. According to a source, her contract expired over the summer. Fox News wanted to renew it, but knew she might leave.

She was in talks to join CBS even before Shep Smith resigned in the middle of October. But in a statement sure to raise some eyebrows, Herridge said of her move, "CBS News has always placed a premium on enterprise journalism and powerful investigations. I feel privileged to join a team where facts and storytelling will always matter."

Ouch. Now, if that sounds familiar, just a few weeks before Smith signed off his final broadcast saying in part, "It is my hope that the facts will win the day, that truth will always matter." So what does this mean for the network? Now is CNN Media Analyst Bill Carter. Bill, this is a coup for CBS.

BILL CARTER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: Yes.

CUPP: Catherine is a highly respected journalist.

CARTER: Absolutely, yes.

CUPP: One of Fox's most visible Washington correspondent.

CARTER: I believe she's an original. She started with the network.

CUPP: Yes, she was.

CARTER: Yes.

CUPP: This is good for CBS.

CARTER: Well, yes, I mean she's a real name. People know her. She's had a big audience to talk to for all this time and she's leaving under circumstances that make it look like this is a very good professional move for her.

CUPP: Yes. CARTER: It's her saying I'm a serious journalist. This is what I

want to do. I don't think that there's an accident in that double use of the facts there.

CUPP: Oh, I don't either.

CARTER: So I mean something is really going on here, in fact.

CUPP: So after Shep left, my colleagues, Brian Stelter and Oliver Darcy reported that a Fox employee said, "Don't be surprised if there's an exodus."

CARTER: Yes.

CUPP: Fox hasn't just lost Shep today. Do you think there's going to be more exits?

CARTER: Well, I think so because you now sense - she, obviously, didn't sign her contract. She could have signed all this time and didn't.

CUPP: That's right.

CARTER: So she's been thinking about it for a while and this has been clearly going on there for a period of time. And as Fox gets more entrenched and from a business point of view, you understand why.

CUPP: Right. Right.

CARTER: They're completely entrenched with the message that they are going to support Trump and that's what they do. That's what they do around the clock and that people who are on the regular beats are brought into that. They're dragged into that.

CUPP: Yes.

CARTER: They have to respond when they're on with Hannity or Carlson or Ingraham. They have to say what the narrative is.

CUPP: Yes.

CARTER: The narrative of the day is how do this benefit or how can we excuse it if it's a negative against Trump.

CUPP: And not to be contrarian, but isn't this move by CBS to pick up Herridge also kind of a good look for Fox that one of their own went on to a top post at network?

CARTER: Yes, it says we've had this very professional person all this time.

CUPP: Right.

CARTER: But we also lost her.

CUPP: We just lost her, right. CARTER: And interestingly, Shep, has already been proposed by Jeff

Zucker at this network that he would be interested in Shep. So clearly they had --

CUPP: They have to wait a few years, honestly I got that.

CARTER: -- whatever his contract says.

CUPP: Yes.

CARTER: But clearly, the talent there at least in the news side is attractive to people.

CUPP: Fox as you know is President Trump's firewall.

CARTER: Yes.

CUPP: It's very influential outfit. New polling shows that among Republicans who consider Fox News their primary source of news, 55 percent said that almost nothing could dissuade them from approving of Trump.

CARTER: Yes.

CUPP: I mean, that is Trump's takeover of Fox News, fully.

CARTER: Yes.

CUPP: And it's beneficial to both Trump and Fox.

CARTER: Well, clearly it is. As I've said, it's a very good business strategy for them. They have an audience that is passionate about what they're selling, if they're passionate about it. And they're never going to waver and they want to watch it round the clock. They really are faithful to the network, 55 percent seems a little low to me in some ways.

CUPP: Well, listen, that same poll found 98 percent of Republicans who say Fox is their Primary source of news, oppose Trump being impeached and removed, 98 percent.

[18:50:05]

CARTER: Yes, that's more along the lines (inaudible) ...

CUPP: But then isn't it hard for Fox to make the case fair and balanced? That number does not sound very fair and balanced.

CARTER: I don't think they're really serious about making that case. I don't know, do you? I don't think they are. I think they've realized this is our bread and butter and we're going to follow it. We're going to go for it.

CUPP: Yes. It's working. They are making ...

CARTER: But from a business point of view it's enormously successful. CUPP: And I know and I just wonder, briefly before we go, I just

wonder what happens when Trump is no longer in the White House.

CARTER: It's a real question. But if it's a Democrat, they have a target, so it work that way too.

CUPP: Right. Right. No, that would be good for business.

CARTER: Yes.

CUPP: We'll see. CNN Media Analyst, Bill Carter, thanks so much for coming on. And more to come after the break.

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[18:54:42]

CUPP: In an interview this week with the Washington Examiner, President Trump once again insisted his phone call with Ukraine President Zelensky was perfect. So perfect, in fact, that he's thinking of performing it live.

He said, "At some point, I'm going to sit down perhaps as a fireside chat on live television and I will read the transcript of the call, because people have to hear it. When you read it, it's a straight call."

[18:55:05]

Did you catch that? He wants to give a fireside chat.

FDR's famed fireside chats were a series of evening radio broadcast addresses between 1933 and 1944. He used the colloquial conversational format to address serious concerns Americans had about the recession, the drought, the new deal, and World War II.

They were meant to calm and reassure an anxious and even despairing citizenry. He made these addresses from the Diplomatic Reception Room of the White House and he would often begin his talk with the words my friends or my fellow Americans.

Trump wanting to do a live reading of a call with a foreign head of state in which he abuses the office of the presidency is not a fireside chat. It's a stunt and a dumb one at that. Fireside chats were meant to bring Americans together to calm their fears, to explain terrifying events like war and economic crisis.

Trump is the opposite of all that. He relishes dividing Americans, stoking their fears and confusing them about important issues. Whatever he decides to do, it won't be a fireside chat. In the immortal words of Inigo Montoya I say, you keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

That's it for me tonight. But stick around because up next Van Jones talks to California Governor Gavin Newsom about the devastating fires there. Plus, vets turned to Congress members talk about impeachment and its impact on National Security. Stick around.