Return to Transcripts main page
Connect the World
Key Testimony in Trump Impeachment Inquiry; Michigan Voters Weigh In; Mormon Family Members Killed in Attack; Yemeni Government and Separatists Sign Saudi Brokered Deal; Iran Taking Fourth Step to Decrease Nuclear Deal Commitments; CNN Embedded with Turkish Forces at Syrian Border; Interview with Former U.S. Envoy Staffan de Mistura, Reflecting on Diplomacy Today. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired November 05, 2019 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CORRESPONDENT(?)(voice-over): The impeachment inquiry moving into public view, as transcripts of closed door testimony are
released for the first time.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are very dishonest people, shifty Schiff.
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: In Mexico, where at least nine members of a Mormon family were killed in an ambush.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The motive behind it, we`re not sure but the aftermath was incredibly tragic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A senior Turkish official is telling us that Baghdadi`s sister was captured. They believe that this could potentially
be an intelligence gold mine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN London, this is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): A busy news hour ahead for you, as well as part 2 of our exclusive interview with Staffan de Mistura, until
last year the longest serving U.N. voice for Syria since the civil war began.
I talked to him about his legacy a little later in the show. A very warm welcome, this is CONNECT THE WORLD, with me, Becky Anderson, live from Abu
Dhabi, where it`s 8:00 in the evening.
It`s 11:00 in D.C., Capitol Hill, bracing for what will likely be more bombshell testimony in the impeachment saga there as White House officials
refuse to testify under oath. Any moment now House Democrats will release two more transcripts of interviews with the formal special envoy for
Ukraine and the current U.S. ambassador to the E.U.
Their text messages detail how a shadow foreign policy was being run by Mr. Trump`s personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. White House reporter Steven
Collinson is standing by. First, Suzanne Malveaux has the latest from Capitol Hill.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I just had a chance to talk to Republican senator Rand Paul, who, as you know, yesterday at a rally, a
Trump rally with the president calling to unmask the whistleblower. A lot of his Republican colleagues and many Democrats say that is reckless and
irresponsible behavior.
He says he believes the Constitution backs him up on this point. He`s not backing down on that call.
In the meantime, you have House Democrats really up to the promise here, delivering on their promise to release these transcripts, hundreds and
hundreds of pages, revealing that Democrats and Republicans have been involved in this process of questioning witnesses.
Really, peeking behind the curtain, opening, if you will, what Trump`s foreign policy looks like in Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX (voice-over): With the first transcripts from the impeachment inquiry going public, President Trump`s intensifying his attacks against
the whistleblower who started it all.
TRUMP: The whistleblower said lots of things that weren`t so good, folks.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): House investigators releasing hundreds of pages of testimony from the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch.
The career diplomat saying behind closed doors she was warned to "watch my back" because of Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani and his associates.
According to the rough transcript of the July 25th phone call, President Trump told Ukraine`s new president that she was bad news and warned, "She`s
going to go through some things."
She told lawmakers, "I didn`t know what it meant. I was very concerned. I still am."
When asked, "Did you feel threatened?" her answer simply, "Yes."
REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD.), MEMBER, JUDICIARY AND OVERSIGHT COMMITTEES: Obviously, she was the object of a tremendous smear campaign. We want to
know how deep that went.
MALVEAUX (voice-over): Under pressure from the president`s allies, she said she thought advice from the U.S. ambassador to the European Union.
His suggestion?
"Go big or go home. You need, to you know, tweet out there that you support the president."
Yovanovitch also at the center of Michael McKinley`s testimony. The former top aide of secretary of state Mike Pompeo explaining why he abruptly
resigned days before his deposition.
[11:05:00]
MALVEAUX (voice-over): He says the State Department did not support career civil servants caught up in the inquiry. And he was troubled by, quote,
"what appears to be the utilization of our ambassadors overseas to advance domestic political objectives."
He says he repeatedly raised concerns, according to the transcript of his testimony, and asked Pompeo to public state his support for Yovanovitch.
That directly contradicts Pompeo`s account in an interview last month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE POMPEO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I never heard him say a single thing about his concerns with respect to this --
(CROSSTALK)
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC HOST: So you were never asked --
POMPEO: Not once.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MALVEAUX: And so, Becky, we`re waiting for the transcripts of the testimony of the former envoy to Ukraine, Volker, as well as the E.U.
ambassador, Gordon Sondland. We expect there are going to be a lot of explosive details. Becky?
ANDERSON: Stephen, you say that a common thread in these impeachment hearings is that president Donald Trump seems to sense a chance to leave
expansive, uncheckable power everywhere he looks. That may be so.
But is that a crime?
If so, is there a strong enough case to find him guilty at a point?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s not necessarily a crime or a political offense. The question here in this case in Ukraine is whether
the president used that power not to leverage the national interest but for personal political gain by getting dirt on a potential political opponent,
Joe Biden. That`s the real case.
Presidents have wide ranging power in foreign policy, much more than they do within the confines of the Constitution domestically. But if they use
it for their own political purpose, they`re seen as abusing a public trust.
That was a clear concern of the founding fathers who wrote the U.S. Constitution. So that is the question here.
And I think what these disclosures show, this testimony, is that the president is going around the established structures of American power.
U.S. diplomats in places like Ukraine and he`s trying to create a covert shadow foreign policy to advance his own political goals. That`s really
the big question here that`s at the center of the impeachment push.
We`re seeing, I think, evidence to support that and the contention that`s happening by Democrats in these disclosures as they come out.
ANDERSON: Another fundamental question is, of course, a year out from this election, would a not guilty impeachment verdict, should that end up being
the case at the Senate, help Donald Trump?
COLLINSON: I think it would definitely help him. Certainly at the margins among perhaps undecided voters or more moderate voters. President Donald
Trump`s supporters like the fact that he`s leveraging this power, that is a strong man.
They`re more likely to believe the president when he says nothing happened than the evidence of their own eyes, which if you have an objective view of
some of this stuff, clearly shows there was a quid quo pro in this case, with the president withholding military aid to Ukraine to try to get
political help in the 2020 election.
Another very interesting question is what happens to Trump if he is acquitted by the Senate in an impeachment trial by the Republicans. He
will see this as a vindication of his behavior. Then we`ll have the prospect of a president who is basically completely unfettered. There will
be no limits on his behavior.
What are the Democrats going to do?
Try to impeach him again?
That`s when I think we`ll see the president`s instincts to expand his power as much as possible play out. It will be an extraordinary situation if an
impeached president were to win reelection for the first time in American history.
I think then we`d really see the possibility of an imperial presidency that would challenge the precepts of the Constitution, which was set up to
preclude a president from becoming like a king and getting too powerful.
ANDERSON: Steven is in Washington, Suzanne is on the Hill for more details, House Democrats are building their abuse of power case. And the
threads in all of this do view Steven Collinson`s excellent analysis.
As we mentioned, polls show Mr. Trump is still competitive in battleground states. Last hour we took you to the state of Wisconsin. Jason Carroll
now travels to another key swing state, that of Michigan, to take the temperature of voters there.
[11:10:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Picturesque small towns, affluent suburbs and overwhelmingly white, Michigan 11th is a
congressional district carved out of an area just northwest of Detroit.
TRUMP: Who won the state of Michigan after decades?
CARROLL: It`s also a district that voted for Trump in 2016 --
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Haley Stevens, the Democrat --
CARROLL: -- then flipped and elected a Democratic congresswoman, Haley Stevens, in last year`s midterms.
It`s a swing district in a swing state. So no surprise voters split on the impeachment inquiry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it`s a sham, OK? I think the president --
RITA DUNNING, TRUMP SUPPORTER: It`s horrible.
CARROLL (on camera): Horrible?
DUNNING: Yes. It`s horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
DUNNING: Just horrible what they`re doing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The president`s doing a great job.
CARROLL (voice over): In Plymouth, Michigan, Rita Dunning, a former autoworker, proudly shows her support for Trump on her Ford pickup truck.
DUNNING: Women in Michigan love President Trump. End of story.
CARROLL (on camera): Well, I saw your truck. I saw your truck.
DUNNING: Yes.
Women keep -- quit saying women are not for Trump.
CARROLL (voice over): Tell that to Amy Neale, a marketing director who says the inquiry is long overdue.
AMY NEALE, MARKETING DIRECTOR: I think it`s heading in the right direction finally, the impeachment. I think we`re getting the evidence we need. And I
-- you know, I hope he gets what`s coming to him.
CARROLL: UPS worker Steven Play (ph) says it`s the Democrats who deserve to have what`s coming to them, he says for undermining a president who has
done so well on the economy.
STEVEN PLAY, UPS WORKER: Look at the real estate. I mean, house goes on the market, it`s gone in a week. I mean, the economy`s just booming.
CARROLL: Since Trump`s election, the state`s unemployment rate has dropped nearly one point. It should be noted, he narrowly won Michigan in 2016 by
just over 10,000 votes, after Obama won it twice.
CHRISTINE WILLIAMS, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER: He needs to face consequences for his actions.
CARROLL: Christine Williams is a small business owner who supports the inquiry. She says it`s about more than just the bottom line.
WILLIAMS: I think it`s important that the inquiry be going on. I also think it`s important that we not be distracted by it and that there`s actually
governance going on as well too.
CARROLL: About 30 miles northeast of Plymouth, in the upscale suburb of Birmingham, former Marine Paul Kane (ph) also supports the inquiry.
PAUL KANE, FORMER MARINE: I wouldn`t define myself as left or right wing. I`m more middle of the road. I`ve just been very disappointed in President
Trump`s behavior.
CARROLL: Kane says he`s upset over how the president and his allies have criticized decorated war veteran and White House official, Lieutenant
Colonel Alexander Vindman.
KANE: That was just totally uncalled for.
CARROLL: James Melstrom, a financial adviser, could not disagree more.
JAMES MELSTROM, FINANCIAL ADVISOR: I think that the Democrats are really just trying to overturn the results from 2016. And I think it`s going to
fail miserably.
CARROLL: Melstrom also says his newly elected Democratic congresswoman, Haley Stevens, will pay a political price for supporting the inquiry.
So much division, but that doesn`t mean those who may disagree cannot be friends.
CARROLL (on camera): All of you 50.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
CARROLL: You`ve been friends, some of you, since grade school.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CARROLL: And you can all talk politics? UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even after we have a couple drinks.
CARROLL (voice over): This group celebrating their lifelong friendship, and their differences.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think, as a country, we`ve forgotten that we`re all the same on some level. Political divisiveness isn`t what is going to
further this country. We have to act on a common ground.
CARROLL: So folks here pretty much evenly split. But there`s one point where both sides can agree. A lot of people are having a difficult time
understanding how the whole impeachment process works, how long it will take and whatever the result may be, the country will end up being more
divided than ever -- Jason Carroll, CNN, Plymouth, Michigan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: In Mexico, an ambush-style massacre leaves nine people dead. It happened in the mountains near the U.S.-Mexican border on the Mexican side.
Authorities say the victims were women and children from a Mormon family. CNN`s Matt Rivers joins us live from Mexico city.
The security minister said this attack could have been a case of mistaken identity.
There`s an investigation leading in that direction?
MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, that`s what we`re hearing from Mexican authorities. I -- just five minutes before your show,
I spoke to several family members of several of the people that were killed.
And the family who has lived in this neighborhood for decades, they`re part of this community of people who have been in this area for decades now and
who say they haven`t usually had a ton of trouble with the cartels in this region.
They believe that there is either a case of mistaken identity, as the government says, or they believe that these people could have been targeted
because the cartels have no fear of the government as of now and they don`t like anyone who might not follow their exact line.
We don`t know at this point and neither does the government and they`re openly saying that. What we do know is it was three different cars that
were targeted around 3:00 pm on Monday afternoon.
[11:15:00]
RIVERS: And they were not only shot up drastically but they were also lit on fire. The family we spoke to believes some of those who died actually
burnt alive. And so that`s the situation here.
The government of Mexico knows that they have a lot of work ahead. They`re planning to work with the United States government. This shows you how
this violence that has overtaken Mexico over the past several years is now reaching into American citizens` lives as well and we don`t know what will
make this stop.
ANDERSON: Matt Rivers is in Mexico for you.
We`re live from Abu Dhabi. Coming up, a deal is struck between rival parties in Yemen`s bloody civil war.
Could it be a major step towards achieving peace for the country?
We have the details for you on that up next.
And close up, access in northern Syria. A CNN team is embedded with Turkish forces in a town that`s witnessed the heaviest fighting since
Turkey launched its military operation across the border. Do stay with us for that.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
ANDERSON: Welcome back. You`re watching CONNECT THE WORLD with me, Becky Anderson. It`s 18 minutes past 8:00 here from the UAE.
Just in the last hour or so, Yemen`s internationally recognized government has officially signed an agreement with southern separatists in the Saudi
Arabian capital of Riyadh. This deal is aimed at resolving a power struggle in the south of the country that`s opened a new front in Yemen`s
war.
And it`s supposed to put a stop to months of deadly infighting between Yemen`s Saudi backed government and southern separatists, who are supported
by the UAE. According to Saudi media reports, the government of ministers will be divided equally between the southern and northern provinces of
Yemen.
No details were revealed during the signing ceremony. Leaders from both Saudi and the UAE were present at the meeting. Abu Dhabi`s crown prince
Mohamed Bin Zayed tweeting images from inside the room. My colleague Sam Kiley is joining me now here in the studio.
There`s not an awful lot of detail today.
[11:20:00]
ANDERSON: But let`s broadly talk about the significance of this Riyadh agreement, if you will.
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think the key thing is to try to end the fighting. Statement of the obvious, what this has
meant, really, is that the government is going to be divided between the Saudi backed rebels -- rather, government -- and what had been the rebel
southerners.
They`re going to get 12 seats each in a 24-seat cabinet, a maximum of 24 seats. And so that really does balance it out.
The only other significant detail on this, Becky, is the heavy weapons on all sides are going to be ordered out of Aden, the temporary capital.
ANDERSON: I want to read out a statement from Martin Griffiths, the U.N. Special envoy for Yemen`s statement on the agreement. He says, I
congratulate the government of Yemen and the Southern transitional Council in reaching an agreement on the way forward.
The signing of this agreement is an important step, he says, for our collective efforts to advance a peaceful settlement to the conflict in
Yemen. Listening to southern stakeholders, he says, is important to the political efforts to achieve peace.
What he didn`t say is the fight in the south had massively complicated his task in trying to find a resolution to what is going on in Yemen, full
stop.
KILEY: Exactly. One of the things that the southerners objected to is they were not part of previous delegations to peace talks with the Houthis,
which is the main civil war there, that you`ll recall that is also generating a huge humanitarian disaster. That now we understand has been
fixed in terms of future delegations in talks with the Houthis. That`s important. His pointed remark about the future discussions about the
Southern Transitional Council as they call that. So they`re parking that issue. Southern separatists or demands for southern autonomy in order to
knit together a coalition that can continue to try to prosecute or against the Houthis.
Of course, no mention of the other wars going on off the right-hand side of the map if you like against Al Qaeda and elements of the so-called Islamic
State.
ANDERSON: Just a few days ago the UAE announcing a return of their troops from Aden, saying the job there is done, handing over controls to the Saudi
and Yemeni forces. They did say they would continue to fight terror groups in the country.
The UAE backed the secessionist militia in direct opposition to their Saudi allies who backed the transitional government in Yemen. UAE`s minister of
state for foreign affairs saying Yemen is embarking on a new phase through this agreement.
What is your take on what happened between the UAE and Saudi in the south?
And how that affected what, one, is going on there. And how it might affect the kind of wider story. Is the UAE, have they had enough?
Are they backing out of Yemen?
If so, will that help going forward?
KILEY: Well, if we go back to why they formed a coalition, it was in order to protect what they said was a legitimate government, internationally
recognized government.
There was a new robust sense from both Saudi Arabia and the UAE to fix problems in the Arab world themselves, rather than let outsiders do it and
perhaps the naive assumption that they had a better idea about how to do it.
ANDERSON: They had genuine national security issues in this region.
KILEY: Yes, it`s right on their doorstep. It matters in an absolute sense. I discern, in speaking with officials, I don`t think they`d
complain if I indicated there had been a degree of lessons learned and particularly for the UAE in the context of what`s going on with Iran and
tensions with Iran.
There is a clear sense that they went into Yemen; it didn`t work out perfectly. They`re still engaged politically in a humanitarian sense.
They`re getting bogged down with limited numbers of troops and they potentially have bigger, more dangerous threats much closer to home.
They`re happy to publicly withdraw.
It also, for a while, caused tensions between the Saudis and the UAE because they backed opposing sides -- or sides that opposed each other. By
backing away militarily, the UAE essentially allows that issue to go away, particularly with this agreement, the southerners have got a pretty good
deal.
I think most of them would agree that the future can be focused on fighting the Houthis. The issue will then be how is that going to be conducted, now
that you have it entirely controlled by Saudi Arabia without perhaps the mitigating voice of the Emirates?
They`ve often been a lot more circumspect when it comes to airstrikes and that kind of thing.
[11:25:00]
ANDERSON: I want to stay in the region. You were in Yemen yourself, you`ve just come back from the Turkey-Syria border, of course.
To some news from there, a senior Turkish official telling CNN that Turkey has captured al Baghdadi`s sister in a raid in Syria. His sister,
accompanied by her husband, daughter-in-law and five kids. The three adults currently being interrogated. The Turkish official who we have
spoken to says this could be an intelligence gold mine.
Meaning what?
KILEY: Well, quite obviously they want to cross question them and find out how more widely the network spread, particularly when it comes to Turkey.
Again, just like the location, it`s not the same location that Baghdadi was killed but very, very close to the Turkish border. Much further to the
east on a smuggling route.
Were people coming and going from the Islamic State, in and out of Turkey?
The Turks probably have a pretty good grip on that anyway. But there`s an issue that they`re not telling us when these individuals were arrested.
Nor are they revealing, obviously, what they`ve come up with in terms of intelligence.
Yes, it would have been a gold mine. If they had been identified and watched for a while, their movements and who they were talking to, would
have provided even better detail. Once they`re in custody, it`s more backward looking than forward planning.
But it will be part of putting together the jigsaw puzzle that it seems now, at least, the Turks are serious about trying to round up cells that
are run with ISIS connections, particularly that this is territory that`s been under Turkish control for more than a year.
ANDERSON: The Turks will see that as a key win.
KILEY: They most certainly will. They will. They like to say they were involved in the Baghdadi killing, too.
ANDERSON: There were a lot of claims of ownership -- not you, though.
KILEY: Not guilty.
ANDERSON: There`s a lot more ahead on CONNECT THE WORLD. Protesters across the Middle East are fed up with Iran`s growing influence. We`ll
hear more from Sam about that coming up this hour. It`s 26 minutes past the hour here in the UAE. I`m going to take a very short break. Back
after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:30:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
ANDERSON: We`re seeing a lot of anger and frustration being directed squarely at Iran in many places across this region of the Middle East. You
heard Iraqi protesters chanting "Iran out" as they attack the Iranian consulate in Kabala over the weekend.
Protests in Lebanon also challenging Tehran`s influence there, giving Hezbollah a Shiite military and political group backed by Iran commands a
large share of the Shiite vote there.
So how will the Islamic Republic handle this challenge?
CNN`s Sam Kiley is with me still in Abu Dhabi. Nic Robertson joining us from London.
Let me start with you at this point, Sam.
Do you see as you look at the scenes across the regional, not least in Lebanon and it`s across Lebanon and in Iraq and Iran on the back foot?
KILEY: Depends on what the Iranian agenda is. If they`re prosecutors of what the Russians would cause the Gerasimov (ph) syndrome; in other words,
chaos in the ranks of the rivals or enemy is victory, then they`re doing fine.
If their idea is to have a kind of Iranian hegemony starting in Baghdad and stretching to Syria, into south Lebanon, then it`s backfiring drastically.
I`m not sure the Iranians have figured out themselves what they want because they were on the back foot militarily trying to, in their view,
mitigate against Western, U.S.-led influence across the region. Of course the influence of Israel, too.
So it`s difficult to discern where they`re going with that. They`re simultaneously, just today, for example, announcing that they are upping
their game in terms of their capacity to produce more highly refined levels of uranium, now injecting uranium gas into over 1,000 centrifuges.
Pointedly also saying that they can roll that back if there is movement diplomatically on the global strategic level relating to lifting sanctions
in return for suspending their nuclear weapons program.
So they know where they`re going very clearly on the super international level. I`m not sure they`re really doing much more than spinning plates,
trying to manage what`s going on at the moment on the ground.
ANDERSON: Nic, let me bring you in. As Sam pointed out, Iran will take its fourth step to decrease its commitments to the nuclear deal, 2015
nuclear deal, which President Rouhani announced yesterday.
What is this fourth step?
How significant is it?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think the four steps become significant when you add them up because the cumulative
process is to end up with a greater level of more highly enriched uranium.
Go back to May, they we`re talking about then increasing their stockpile of enriched uranium, you need 90 percent enriched to make a nuclear weapon.
They were going to increase their permissible stockpile levels over the permissible 300 kilograms.
A couple months later they say, we`ve done it and we`re going to enrich this stuff up to 4.5 percent. Then the next step sort of just kind of hit
a pause button. It was a strong signal. They were going to go back to research and development, which they weren`t supposed to do.
This was supposed to be years in the future, sunset clauses that President Trump has a problem with. And now this step of not only taking online this
sort of low quality centrifuge, the IR-1 that they`ve been limited to using, they`re allowed to use 5,044 and they`re now saying we`re taking
online another -- or preparing to take online another just over 1,000 of those.
But they`re also preparing for the IR-6, a more sophisticated enriching device.
[11:35:00]
ROBERTSON: This is where we`re at with the current step. That can enrich at 10 times the speed.
Remember the JCPOA, the nuclear deal was all about slowing down Iran`s pathway to a weapon. So incrementally, these four steps go in that
direction. It`s slowly turning up the temperature on the international community.
And these pressure points have come accompanied with actions, whether it`s been targeting or tankers in the Strait of Hormuz or as many people believe
in the United States, President Trump, the administration there, Saudis and others that Iran was behind the attacks on its oil processing facilities in
September.
So we`re at one of those thresholds. It`s also important not just because of what it does to shortening the pathway to a nuclear weapon but because
there`s a potential for something else to accompany it as well.
ANDERSON: Fascinating. That`s the situation as things stand, according to Hassan Rouhani in Iran.
Getting back to these protests, in seeking to rein in Iran`s malign behavior or influence in Lebanon and in Iraq, protesters have ended up
achieving what many say Donald Trump`s maximum pressure campaign on Iran didn`t. What that`s done is hurt average Iranians.
But what it hasn`t done is curbed the behavior of the Revolutionary Guard Corps and its proxies around the region.
KILEY: Well, if you look at it on the ground, it`s sort of reverse engineering. Most countries blame their internal problems for external
pressure. But in the case of Iraq, people are blaming a lot of the internal problems overnight on the influence that they have experienced,
that, rightly or wrongly, they blame on Iran.
They`re suggesting in these demonstrations that they have been a malign influence, not in the Israeli or American or British sense of the word as
in destabilizing, but they have allowed by propping up particularly Shia parties and reinforcing their power bases.
They`ve undermined the nature of democracy and the connection between the people and the leadership.
And the other thing is, when you`ve got a big, angry crowd, they want things to attack. One of the easy things to attack without hurting
themselves is something like a symbol of the Iranian influence. That`s what happened over the weekend.
ANDERSON: The former Israeli ambassador to the U.S. wrote in "The Atlantic" that senior ministers in Israel`s government met twice last week
to discuss potential war with Iran. He says Israel is girding for the worst saying, like so many conflagrations in the Middle East, it could be
ignited by a single spark.
I wonder how you believe the United States would respond if, indeed -- well, let`s start with, do you think that there could be a war between
Israel and Iran and how would the United States respond should that be a risk?
KILEY: I mean, it was ever thus. There`s nothing new about the security cabinet in Israel talking about Iran. It`s what they do. Upping the ante
at this stage, quite useful distraction for the Trump administration to have this put out there.
I`ve seen nothing -- and I was recently in Jerusalem -- to suggest there was a renewed set of intelligence, a higher level of paranoia with regard
to Iran. The Israelis are extremely aware, and this is repeated particularly by former Mossad chiefs, saying a war with Iran would be a
completely different nature.
It would suck in the United States potentially and the Iranians, for all the chaos we`re seeing, do have the points of pressure, whether it`s
Hezbollah, the militias in Iraq, the Houthis in Yemen, where they could inflame things and cause a catastrophic regional backblast.
Going back to our discuss about Yemen, it`s that kind of reason that the UAE has been the most cautionary voice in all of --
ANDERSON: Deescalate, they say.
KILEY: -- to try to deescalate and get things back into talking the talk rather than threatening war. I wouldn`t over interpret the stuff coming
out of former Israeli ambassador at the moment.
ANDERSON: Fantastic. Thank you for that. Good stuff.
Keeping in the region, a car bomb killed 19 people in the Syrian town of Tal Abyad over the weekend. CNN`s Jomana Karadsheh is in that town,
embedded with Turkish forces, as they work to clear explosives. Here is what she reported a short time ago.
[11:40:00]
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you recall, this was one of the locations that saw serious, intense fighting when that Turkish offensive
began on October 9th. It`s been about three weeks since major combat operations came to an end here.
But still, we`re seeing Turkish forces who we`re embedded with today, carrying out clearance operations, they`re sweeping areas and sweeping them
multiple times checking for explosives, for devices that have been left. We`re told by Turkish officials that they`re finding explosives on a daily
basis and defusing them, between 10-100 devices on a daily basis according to a senior Turkish official.
And just a short time ago, a car bomb, we`re told, exploded in the center of the town of Tal Abyad. This is just coming a few days after the
devastating car bomb attack that you mentioned took place at a marketplace, a civilian area, where at least 19 people were killed on Saturday.
Nobody claimed that attack but Turkey blames Kurdish fighters. The Syrian Democratic Forces have denied any responsibility for that attack. But
these kinds of missions right now are critical, especially as they`re seeing civilians starting to return to their homes; according to the United
Nations, more than 20,000 people have returned to Tal Abyad in the past few days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: That`s Jomana Karadsheh there on the border.
Still to come, 21 war zones in 47 years. That is the resume of my next guest in an exclusive interview. The former U.N. special envoy to Syria
Staffan de Mistura tells me why diplomacy is in crisis. That is up next.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STAFFAN DE MISTURA, FORMER U.N. SPECIAL ENVOY TO SYRIA: Russian influence is paramount.
Why?
First of all, because they have been very consistent. Others have been less consistent. Let`s be frank.
Secondly, because they have been putting on the table the chips, which is a very substantial military intervention, which was a game changer. We all
know it. We like it or not but it was a game changer.
Three, they have been actually very eager to not get stuck with the reconstruction of Syria.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Staffan de Mistura, the former U.N. special envoy to Syria, speaking to me about Russia`s clout in the country. Folks, this is a man
you`ve got to listen to. One who truly understands how our world connects.
[11:45:00]
ANDERSON: He`s got nearly five decades of diplomatic experience under his belt, having worked to broker peace in 21 war zones. He once said that the
one constant in Syria`s violently unpredictable conflict is that neither side will win.
In part two of our exclusive interview, I began by asking if he still stands by that now, given Turkey`s recent incursion. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DE MISTURA: Territorial victory seems to be the writing on the wall, is that Assad, the government, has won, thanks to the help, clearly and strong
help, from Russia and Iran.
Now no one really can question that. And the intervention of Turkey or anyone else is not going to change that, the writing on the wall is in that
direction.
The issue is whether the government, who has won territorially the war is now able, capable, intelligent politically enough, to win the peace. That
is the issue. That`s why the political discussion is now so crucial. Without that, it will not be a victory. It will be a ruined country with a
divided environment. That is what I meant and I still stand for.
ANDERSON: The late former U.N. envoy to Syria and one-time secretary- general, Kofi Annan, described the job as, quote, "mission impossible."
While you were in the job, "The Guardian" described you as the man with the toughest job in the world. "The National" wrote you "inherited a poisoned
chalice."
A year into the job, you told "The Guardian" you can`t shape the situation but you can shake it.
Did you shake it enough?
(LAUGHTER)
DE MISTURA: Well, history will judge that. What I can tell you is that I agree is true. When I got the job and I got the offer and I had hesitated,
I felt also that that was mission almost impossible.
But you see, Becky, I wanted not to be a diplomat; I wanted to be a medical doctor when I was a young man. And finally, I was convinced that perhaps I
could be a doctor of countries. I speak many languages and I had that motivation.
What does a doctor do?
When there is a disease that you cannot treat, you give up? You resign? You leave?
Well, then with assignment (ph) today or some forms of cancer, no. What you do is you try to save as many people as you can. You try to interfere
with the disease. You give hope and perhaps tomorrow, after tomorrow there will be a treatment found. It will be a moment which may be now, when
everybody wants to wrap it up, that was, I thought our job, our mission and I want to believe many people were saved through that.
ANDERSON: I just wonder whether you bit off more than you could chew.
How do you reflect on your time as U.N. special envoy to Syria?
DE MISTURA: A very difficult, sometimes profoundly frustrating moment. But it was a war where there were six armies involved, 15 countries
involved. Plus a big chunk of Syria was controlled by daish, I feel.
You can see -- and the government was strong and totally refusing to want to discuss with the other side because they thought they were going to win
and the oppositions thought they were winning, too.
So at the end of the day, what I needed to do was keep the limelight on the issue, because the worst-case scenario when the world starts saying, the
so-called CNN effect, if you want a compliment, when you start forgetting about the country and people then just look at statistics.
People dying second, to continue pushing to make sure that civilians, the civilians would not be abandoned. And I don`t think we did that. In fact,
that`s why the government was annoyed with me. I was constantly pushing. And so was some of the opposition.
Journalist David Kenner wrote in "The Atlantic," that even you, the quote, "diplomat`s diplomat" couldn`t solve the Syrian civil war.
He said, "There are few Syrians under the illusion that the international community can affect the course of their lives."
I quote him saying, "There are few diplomats who would honestly say that they have a blueprint for changing that reality."
What`s the role of a diplomat in today`s changing world order?
DE MISTURA: Well, this is a major issue we are debating these days. And now that a little bit freer, I am involved in it. The so-called
multilateralism, in other words, crisis solved this through many countries working together, seems to be in a crisis. We start seeing more and more.
Look around the world, actually. Might is right.
[11:50:00]
DE MISTURA: Human rights, forget them. All type of discussions within the U.N. to tell the nation, oh, I will show my strength and then I will call
the U.N. to actually package my victory. That seems to be the attitude at the moment, not only in Syria.
But it won`t be able to last. Without the U.N., in other words, the capacity of putting together at least a formula of face-saving for
everyone, you`ll not have a sustainable peace. You`ll not have a reconstruction.
Think about development issues, about the crisis. Look at the people in the streets these days. So I know it`s a bad moment for U.N. unilateral
principles but we should not give up because there`s no alternative to that. No single country, neither a super power can handle this issue on
his own.
ANDERSON: I want to bring up, finally, a photograph of your father. He was left stateless without a passport in the Second World War.
What impact did your father`s experience have on your four-decade diplomatic career?
DE MISTURA: A lot. You can imagine. There were two impacts I had in my choice of choosing only U.N. war zones, 21 in 47 years so far. One was the
humiliation I saw in the eyes of my father when I as a Swedish at the time, then I became Austro-Italian national went through the customs, through the
borderline and I was waiting for two hours.
And they were questioning my father, whether he had any means to actually stay on the other side. As a 5-year-old young boy, I went back and said,
let my father come back. He`s my father.
And they would look at me. That had an impact.
And the second impact was when I was in Cyprus. I was 19 years old and I saw a child on the greenline shot by a sniper.
(CROSSTALK)
And I got such an indignation, outrage, healthy one, I want to believe in.
I said to her, why?
Killing, shooting civilians, where actually these guys are both men and they should be fighting between them. And that kept that fire in me until
now. So both had a huge impact, Becky.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Staffan de Mistura in what was his first international interview since leaving his job as the U.N. special envoy to Syria last year. We`ve
got an extended version of that interview online. Do use cnn.com/connect where he tells me which nation should take charge in rebuilding Syria.
Don`t forget, you can always join what is a global conversation, it`s your conversation, that is online and on Twitter. I`m @BeckyCNN. We`ll have
more after this.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:55:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
ANDERSON: I want to recap you just before we go this hour on a regional developing story.
Yemen, the country`s internationally recognized government, has officially sealed a power sharing pact with southern separatists in Riyadh. Both
sides pledging their commitment to the accord.
The deal aimed at resolving a power struggle in the south of the country that had opened up a new front in Yemen`s war, putting a stop to months of
deadly infighting between Yemen`s Saudi backed government and southern separatists supported by the UAE.
According to Saudi media, government ministers will be formed and equally divided between the southern and northern provinces of Yemen. No details
on that revealed during the signing ceremony. We`ll bring you, of course - - continue to bring you the latest developments as we get them.
That`s it. I`m Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD. Thank you, stick with CNN, more after this short break.
[12:00:00]
END
