Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Event/Special

Ousted U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Testifies Publicly. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired November 15, 2019 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

MARIE YOVANOVITCH, FORMER U.S.AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE: -- in which I understood to be these investigations and that President Zelensky had said that he is putting in a new prosecutor general and that he doesn't control -- I mean, this is approximately what he said that that person is an independent individual.

STEVE CASTOR, COUNSEL FOR HOUSE REPUBLICANS: OK. And you learned about that before the call was made public?

YOVANOVITCH: That's correct.

CASTOR: Likewise, you were not involved in any discussions surrounding the security sector assistance funds to Ukraine, that they were paused for about 55 days from July 18th to September 11th?

YOVANOVITCH: No discussions.

CASTOR: OK. In your opening statement on page nine you stated, although then and now, I've always understood that I served at the pleasure of the president. I still find it difficult to comprehend that foreign and private interests were able to undermine U.S. interests in this way. Individuals who apparently felt stymied by our efforts to promote stated U.S. policy against corruption, that is, to do the mission, were able to successfully conduct a campaign of disinformation against the sitting ambassador using unofficial backchannels.

Do you believe that President Trump was aiming to weaponized corruption in Ukraine by removing you?

YOVANOVITCH: I don't know that.

CASTOR: OK. Do you believe your removal was part of some scheme to make it easier for elements of the Ukrainian establishment do things counter to U.S. interests?

YOVANOVITCH: I think that's certainly what the Ukrainian establishment hoped. I think that, in addition, there were Americans, these two individuals who were working with Mayor Giuliani, Mr.Parnas and Mr.Fruman, who have recently been indicted by the southern district of New York, who indicated that they wanted to change out the ambassador, and I think they must have had some reason for that. CASTOR: And do you think they were seeking a different type of ambassador that would allow them to achieve some of their objectives?

YOVANOVITCH: I don't know what other reason there would be.

CASTOR: OK. Is Ambassador Taylor the type of person that would facilitate those objectives?

YOVANOVITCH: No.

CASTOR: So Ambassador Taylor is a man of high integrity?

YOVANOVITCH: Absolutely.

CASTOR: And he's a good pick for the post?

YOVANOVITCH: He is. I would note that he is the chargee out there, as, of course, you understand. So no ambassador has yet been -- or no candidate has yet been named to the position.

CASTOR: But he certainly has had a decorated career serving his country.

YOVANOVITCH: Absolutely. A man of the highest integrity.

CASTOR: You testified about when you first learned that Mayor Giuliani and some of his associates were -- had a concerted campaign against you. When did that first come to your attention?

YOVANOVITCH: We were picking up rumors from Ukrainians. I think, you know, kind of in the November-December 2018 time period. But then in January and February, and of course March, it became more obvious.

CASTOR: At some point I believe you testified that Minister Avakov alerted you to this campaign?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes.

CASTOR: And when was that?

YOVANOVITCH: He had a conversation with me in February of 2019.

CASTOR: OK. And do you remember what he related to you?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes. He said that Mr.Leschenko was working with Mayor Giuliani through these two individuals, Mr.Parnas and Mr.Fruman, that they basically wanted to remove me from post. And that they were working on that.

CASTOR: And did you have any awareness at that point in time of precisely why they were seeking your ouster?

YOVANOVITCH: You know, I didn't understand that at all because I had never met Mr. Parnas and Mr. Fruman. And so it was unclear to me why they were interested in doing this.

CASTOR: Were you especially influential implementing policies that stymied their interests in Ukraine?

[12:35:03]

Were advocating for the some sort of environmental policies that would be adverse to them?

YOVANOVITCH: I think that just the general idea that obviously U.S. ambassadors and U.S. embassies, one of our most important functions is to facilitate U.S. business abroad, right. Whether it's trade, whether it's commerce, that's one of the things that we do. And -- but, you know, everything has to be above board. We believe in a level playing ground and so forth but we obviously advocate for U.S. business.

These two individuals, you know, with hindsight and what we learned later, looking to open up a new energy company exporting liquefied national gas -- natural gas to Ukraine never actually came to the embassy which is unusual because that would usually be a first stop. Going to the American Chamber of Commerce, going to the U.S. Embassy, get a lay of the land, see how we could provide assistance.

CASTOR: And was that source of frustration ever expressed to you, or did you just learn that separately?

YOVANOVITCH: Source of frustration, what do you mean?

CASTOR: Right.

YOVANOVITCH: On whose part?

CASTOR: On Fruman and Parnas.

YOVANOVITCH: I don't know that they were frustrated. I mean, frustrated by what?

CASTOR: Well, you mentioned that they were -- they had business interests and I asked you whether they had been stymied by anything in particular that you had advocated for or you were a roadblock to them being successful, and I wondered if there was any connection.

YOVANOVITCH: I've never met them. When I heard those names for the first time, which was in February of 2019, I asked my team. The econ and the commercial sections were the ones who would usually meet with American businessmen and women, and nobody had heard of them. So all I can conclude is that it was the general U.S. policies that we were implementing that might have been of concern to them.

CASTOR: OK. And at any point did you ever try to reach out to the prosecutor general, Mr. Leschenko, and find out why he was participating in this concerted campaign?

YOVANOVITCH: No.

CASTOR: And why didn't you do that?

YOVANOVITCH: I didn't feel that there was any purpose to it. CASTOR: Why not?

YOVANOVITCH: He is -- he clearly had, I would say, an animus for doing this, and he was working with Americans. So I reached out to the American side, in this case, the State Department to try and find out what was going on.

CASTOR: When did you first realize that your relationship with Leschenko had reached an adversarial point?

YOVANOVITCH: Probably around that time, maybe a little bit earlier.

CASTOR: And this is March?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes. And what I would say, adversarial, that's a really strong word. We, at the U.S. embassy, are visiting key people from the State Department and other agencies. We were pushing the Ukrainians including Mr. Leschenko, to do what they said that they were going to do when Mr. Leschenko entered office, that he was going to clean up the PGO and make reforms, that he was going to bring justice to the what they call the heavenly hundred, the people who died on the (INAUDIBLE) in 2016 -- 2014, the Revolution of Dignity. And he was going to prosecute cases to repatriate the 40 -- approximately $40 billion it's believed that former President Yanukovych and his cronies fled the country with. And he didn't do any of that.

And we, you know, kept on trying to encourage him to do the right thing. That's what the Ukrainian people wanted him to do, and we thought it was a good plan and that he should do it.

CASTOR: And then you mentioned you contacted the State Department in late March? Was that under Secretary Hale?

YOVANOVITCH: Contacted about what?

CASTOR: About the concerns you had about the campaign against you.

YOVANOVITCH: I contacted the State Department much earlier than that. I mean, it was an ongoing sort of discussion which makes it sound very formal. We have many ways of going back and forth with Washington, and so, you know, on phone calls or DBCs we would have this discussion.

CASTOR: When did you realize this --

YOVANOVITCH: And if I could just amplify my answer. We had the discussion because we were concerned that Ukrainian policymakers, Ukrainian leaders, were hearing that, you know, I was going to be leaving, that, you know, there was maybe someone else waiting in the wings, et cetera.

[12:40:11]

And that undermined not only my position, but our U.S. position. The Ukrainians didn't know what to think. And we need to be out there all the time firing on all cylinders to promote our national security interests. So it was a concern.

CASTOR: And when did you realize this concerted campaign against you was a real threat?

YOVANOVITCH: A threat in --

CASTOR: A threat to your ability to do the job in Kyiv.

YOVANOVITCH: Well, I would say that the -- you know, when you go into a meeting with somebody and they ask, are you going to be leaving, that is concerning. So that probably -- I don't know exactly when that started happening, but in that time frame.

CASTOR: And did you undertake any efforts to push back on this narrative either inside the State Department or publicly?

YOVANOVITCH: Well, certainly with the Ukrainians, I said, you know, there is nothing to this. This is, you know, a distraction and we are focused on the job. Our policy remains the same. And, yes, we had discussions in the State Department about this.

CASTOR: In hindsight, do you think you did enough inside the State Department to alert them to this mounting campaign against you?

YOVANOVITCH: I did what I could.

CASTOR: And what was that?

YOVANOVITCH: Reached out to the European bureau. I think you've also heard that Dr. Fiona Hill was aware of this as well, so the NSC, and they had other discussions with more senior people.

CASTOR: OK. And did you get any feedback from your chain of command? Or did you engage Ambassador Reeker under Secretary Hale?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes. Yes.

CASTOR: And did you develop sort of a game plan to push back against these allegations?

YOVANOVITCH: So -- I mean, there are different time frames here that we're talking about. So fast-forwarding to March, I did -- when under Secretary Hale asked whether I would consider extending, I did raise because I wasn't sure that he was aware of it. I wanted to make sure that he knew that Mayor Giuliani had been out there saying things about me, untrue things, and I wanted him to be aware of that. And he said -- you know, he understood. He still was hoping that I could extend for another year.

So that was early March and then fast-forward to, you know, late March, and, you know, the discussions about this issue continued, but obviously it became -- once it became a public political story here in the united states, the tenor of everything changed. Because I think that the State Department felt that it wasn't manageable anymore and that the more prudent thing would be for me to come back in July. CASTOR: Do you think there is anything you could have done differently to get ahead of the story and lobby the secretary and his counselor (INAUDIBLE) that this -- there was a concerted campaign against you, that you didn't believe the allegations lodged were accurate and you needed their assistance?

YOVANOVITCH: I think that sure, maybe I could have done that. But I think they were aware and as I subsequently learned from Deputy Secretary Sullivan, the secretary of state had been well aware of this since the summer of 2018.

CASTOR: The corruptions endemic in the country of Ukraine, right?

YOVANOVITCH: I would say that corruption is a serious issue everywhere in the former Soviet Union. It's a post-Soviet legacy and we talk a lot about it in Ukraine because there's obviously an opportunity to do something, to actually help the Ukrainians tackle the issue. They want to tackle the issue. In other countries like Russia, you can't even talk about it. So I think it's a post-Soviet legacy and it's important to deal with it.

CASTOR: And that you testified ramping corruption has long permeated Ukraine's economic systems.

YOVANOVITCH: Yes, it's a fair statement.

CASTOR: And it's your belief that it should be the U.S. foreign policy to help Ukraine curb its corruption problem?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes, because it's good for the Ukrainians but it's also in our interest.

CASTOR: And anti-corruption efforts, you mentioned, serve a national security purpose?

YOVANOVITCH: I believe that to be true.

CASTOR: Are oligarchs a big part of the problem in Ukraine?

[12:45:00]

YOVANOVITCH: Probably. Because so much wealth is concentrated in the hands of a very, very few six or seven individuals and they also have political power and control the media.

CASTOR: And a lot of their power has been acquired through what we here in the U.S. would consider improperly -- improper ways?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes, I think that's a fair comment.

CASTOR: The head of Burisma, Mr. Zlochevsky, are you familiar with him?

YOVANOVITCH: I don't know him but I know who you're talking about.

CASTOR: You know, George Kent testified a couple of days ago that he was investigating for, you know, stealing millions and millions of dollars, some of which had been supplied by the U.S. Great Britain. He's subject to an investigation, trying to get the money back. That was a big part of Mr. Kent's initiative when he was there. That a bribe was paid to the prosecutors and Zlochevsky was let off the hook.

This was in 2014. Is this something that you're familiar with?

YOVANOVITCH: I've heard about it. This was before my arrival, and I would just say my understanding but -- and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that the U.S. money that you're referring to was the money that we use to fund an FBI team that was embedded with the prosecutor general's office to go after -- not to go after but to do the investigation of Burisma and Zlochevsky.

CASTOR: Mr. Kent testified that this bribe was paid, the prosecution went away, and, you know, essentially nothing has been, you know, further done with regards to Burisma. You know, during your tenure in Ukraine, has there ever been any focus on re-examining allegations whether it's at Burisma or other powerful interests like Zlochevsky, re-examining it?

YOVANOVITCH: Is that on the part of the Ukrainian government? Is that what you're talking about?

CASTOR: Yes. Trying to lean on the various prosecutors general to clean up the oligarchy system?

YOVANOVITCH: I think, yes, there have been some efforts. And as I mentioned earlier in my testimony, the U.S. was welcoming of Mr. Leschenko's nomination to the position of prosecutor general, because we were hoping he would clean that up. That, in fact, is not what happened. And because -- you know, it's kind of hard to explain to a U.S. audience, but in Ukraine in the former -- and in the former Soviet Union more broadly including Russia, the justice system, whether it's, you know, cops on the beat, whether it's investigators, whether it is prosecutors, whether it is judges are used as a tool of the political system to be used against your political adversaries.

And so I think that, going back to your question about Burisma and Zlochevsky, my understanding -- this was -- as I told you earlier in the previous deposition, this did not loom large when I arrived. I arrived in 2016, August 2016. But over time, my understanding was that the case was basically sort of on a pause, that it wasn't an active case, but it also was not fully closed. And that is a way, as I mentioned before, for those in power to keep a little hook into Burisma and Mr. Zlochevsky.

CASTOR: And right around the time the bribe was paid, Burisma took an effort to spruce up their board and they added, I believe, the president of Poland and some other luminaries. Are you familiar with that?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes. I don't exactly know what the timing of all this was but yes, I mean, to the elements.

CASTOR: And, you know, one of the folks they added to the board was the vice president's son Hunter Biden which, you know, raises questions. Is he a genius on the corporate governance front? Is he a genius with the Ukrainian oligarchic systems and cleaning that up? Or was he just added to the board because he's the vice president's son? Was that ever, you know, a concern, or at least the perception of that concern addressed?

[12:50:01]

YOVANOVITCH: As I said, I arrived in August of 2016, you know, several months before the elections and several months before President Trump took office. And it was not a focus of what I was doing in that six-month period.

CASTOR: OK. Was the issue ever raised at all?

YOVANOVITCH: You know, not --

CASTOR: He was still on the board, I think at the time.

YOVANOVITCH: Yes. My understanding from newspaper accounts is that he just recently left in 2019. I never met him, never talked to him. And I'm sorry, what was your question?

CASTOR: He was still on the board when you arrived at post and was just wondering if at least the perception problem was brought to your attention as the ambassador.

YOVANOVITCH: We -- I was aware of it because as I told you before and in the deposition, there had been a -- in terms of the preparation for my Senate confirmation hearings with Ukraine, there was a question about that and a select answer. So I was aware of it, yes.

CASTOR: OK. In your deposition, you acknowledged that the president has longstanding concerns about corruption in Ukraine. Is that true?

YOVANOVITCH: That's what he says.

CASTOR: We're going to back to -- there was a meeting with President Poroshenko in September of 2017 in the Oval Office, and I believe you testified that, you know, he expressed his concerns then.

YOVANOVITCH: Yes. He said that a friend of his had told him that Ukraine was the most corrupt country in the world.

CASTOR: OK. Several witnesses have testified that the president has concerns that there are certain elements of the Ukrainian establishment in 2016 were out to get him. Is that something you were aware of at any point in time?

YOVANOVITCH: Well, I'm certainly aware of it now. Obviously, there's been a lot of press attention on that. It was not brought to my attention during the two and a half years that I served under President Trump as our ambassador to Ukraine.

CASTOR: We've gone through the depositions, some of these elements that, you know, maybe they loom larger now, but, you know, in hindsight, was there any discussion at the embassy that there's these indications of Ukrainians trying to, you know, at least advocate against then-candidate Trump?

YOVANOVITCH: Actually, there weren't. I mean, we didn't really see it that way.

CASTOR: And were you aware of -- I know Mr. Nunes mentioned this earlier, that the consultant Alexandra Chalupa had reportedly, at least according to her and according to, you know, Ken Vogel at the Politico was trying to work with the Ukrainian embassy in D.C. to, you know, trade information to share leads of that sort of thing?

YOVANOVITCH: I saw the article. I, you know, didn't have any further information about that.

CASTOR: And did you see the article at the time, or did you only -- did that only come to your attention subsequently?

YOVANOVITCH: It certainly been brought to my attention subsequently. I think I did see something to that effect at the time as well.

CASTOR: And, you know, you're the ambassador in contrary at this point, did you aim to get to the bottom of that. Because --, you know, if true, if the reporting is true, if what Ms. Chalupa told Mr. Vogel is accurate, that would be concerning, correct?

YOVANOVITCH: Well, I was the ambassador in Ukraine starting in August of 2016. And what you're describing, if true, as you said, what you're describing took place in the United States. So if there were concerns about what Ms. Chalupa was doing, I think that would have been handled here.

CASTOR: And do you know Ms. Chalupa?

YOVANOVITCH: I don't believe so.

CASTOR: Have you ever met her?

YOVANOVITCH: I don't think so. I mean, if she worked for the Ukrainian embassy, it's possible that I met her in a large group or something, but I don't believe I know her.

CASTOR: OK. Are you aware of the role that investigative journalist Mr. Leschenko played in publicizing the Manafort black ledgers?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes.

CASTOR: And he publicized some information in a pretty grand way in August of 2016 and almost immediately coincided with Mr. Manafort leaving the Trump campaign. Was there anything about that issue when it was occurring that concerned you?

[12:55:01]

YOVANOVITCH: Well, I certainly noticed it because I was, you know, a week or so away from arriving in Ukraine. I think that from a Ukrainian perspective, I realized we are looking at this from an American perspective. From a Ukrainian perspective, I think that what Mr. Leschenko and others who were looking into the black ledger were most concerned about was actually not Mr. Manafort but former President Yanukovych and his political party and the amount of money that they allegedly stole and where it went and so fort. I mean, I think there's a difference in perspective depending on which country you're in.

CASTOR: But you can understand the president at least from his perspective, looking at these facts, certainly is reasonable to conclude that there are elements of the Ukrainian establishment that are advocating against him at this point in time, correct?

YOVANOVITCH: Well, you know, just speaking about Mr. Leschenko, he is an investigative journalist as you said, and he got access to the black ledger and he published it, as I think journalists would do. And again, I'm not sure that that -- I don't have any information to suggest that that was being -- that was targeting President Trump.

CASTOR: But the way events unfolded, I mean, Mr. Manafort was, you know, subsequently left the campaign, and it certainly did begin a period of interest in, you know, Manafort's ties to Russia and so forth.

YOVANOVITCH: I think -- again, I think that that may have been the effect here in the United States. And obviously it was of interest to journalists and others here that Mr. Manafort was former President Yanukovych's political adviser and he was the political adviser or head of a campaign here. And so we all know that there have been court cases and so forth where Mr. Manafort was found guilty of certain actions. But at the end of the day, President Trump won the elections.

CASTOR: With Mr. Leschenko's reporting, I mean, there's been a question of whether all the information that he published was authentic, correct?

YOVANOVITCH: I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

CASTOR: There's been a -- you know, some have questioned whether the information Mr. Leschenko published was all correct or whether it was doctored.

YOVANOVITCH: OK, I wasn't aware of that.

CASTOR: OK. You know, Ambassador Chaly during the August time frame, he wrote an op-ed in The Hill taking issue with then-candidate Trump. Were you aware of that when it occurred?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes.

CASTOR: And did you have any communications with the ambassador to express concerns?

YOVANOVITCH: No.

CASTOR: And how frequently did you communicate with the ambassador? Obviously, you're in different posts in different countries, but.

YOVANOVITCH: Yes. Didn't actually see him or talk to him that often.

CASTOR: So you weren't in frequent communication?

YOVANOVITCH: No.

CASTOR: Can you see how, you know, writing an op-ed, even -- you know, given the substance -- you know, we've discussed the substance of it that there is sensitivities, but can you see just how the simple fact of writing an op-ed, the Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. might create a perception that there are elements of the Ukrainian establishment that were advocating against then-candidate Trump?

YOVANOVITCH: My recollection of the -- of that op-ed was that he was taking a -- he was critical of a policy position that President Trump had with regard to Crimea and whether Crimea was, you know, a part of Ukraine or a part of Russia. That's a tremendously sensitive issue in Ukraine, and my recollection is that that is what Ambassador Chaly was writing about.

CASTOR: And do you know whether the ambassador or anybody from the embassy tried to make contact with the Trump camp to talk about their concerns before lodging an op-ed?

YOVANOVITCH: I don't know.

CASTOR: And during the same time period in the run-up to the election, the Minister Avakov had said some especially candid things about then-candidate Trump on some various social media platforms. Are you aware of that?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes, as a result of the deposition, the previous deposition.

CASTOR: But during the relevant time period when it was happening, you weren't aware of that?

YOVANOVITCH: You know, I don't recall it.

CASTOR: OK. He's one of the more influential officials in the Ukraine, correct?

YOVANOVITCH: He is.

CASTOR: I believe he's one of the few that span both the Poroshenko administration and the Zelensky administration?

YOVANOVITCH: Yes, that's correct.

[13:00:00]