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Hala Gorani Tonight
Pelosi Gives Go Ahead For Articles Of Impeachment; Italian Newspaper Defends "Black Friday" Front Page; Samoa Ramps Up Efforts To Rein In Measles Outbreak; Hungarian Chef Turns To The Forest For Inspiration. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired December 05, 2019 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:19]
LYNDA KINKADE, CNN HOST, HALA GORANI TONIGHT: Hello, everyone. Live from the CNN Center, I'm Lynda Kinkade sitting in for HALA GORANI TONIGHT.
The green light to move forward with impeaching a president: U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi gives Democrats their marching orders after saying
President Trump leaves her no other option.
Also ahead, riot police deploy tear gas in France to disperse demonstrators in nationwide strikes over the country's pension system. We're going to go
live to Paris.
Also ahead, an Italian newspaper sparks outrage over this shocking front page. We're going to look at the race riots ignited there, and why the
newspaper is defending that headline.
Well, the president leaves us no choice. Those words from U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi as she announced that Congress would begin the task
for writing articles of impeachment against President Donald Trump.
Pelosi said that with the 2020 election looming, Congress can't afford to wait any longer. Her comments are the strongest indication yet of how
quickly Democrats are moving on impeachment, towards a vote that could come before Christmas.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The president leaves us no choice but to act because he is trying to corrupt, once again, the election
for his own benefit.
Sadly, but with confidence and humility, with allegiance to our founders and a heart full of love for America, today, I am asking our chairmen to
proceed with articles of impeachment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KINKADE: Well, I want to bring in CNN political commentator and "Washington Post" assistant editor David Swerdlick. Good to have you with
us, David.
DAVID SWERDLICK, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Hi, Lynda. How are you.
KINKADE: Good, good. So the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, simply pointed out that the facts are uncontested. She said democracy is at
stake. And she said, obviously, as you just heard there, the president leaves us no other choice. What do we need to watch out for in the coming
days?
SWERDLICK: So I think we're looking ahead to next week, when the House will shape up its articles of impeachment, the actual items for which they
will take a full House vote. Probably they'll center in the areas of abuse of power, a charge of possibly of bribery, and possibly of obstruction too.
TEXT: Expected Next Steps in House Impeachment Probe: Friday, Deadline for White House participation. Next week, Judiciary hearing with Intel
attorneys; Committee vote on articles of impeachment. Week of Dec. 16, Possible full House vote
SWERDLICK: But we have to wait and see what they actually come up with. One question among Democrats in the House is whether or not they want to
narrowly focus this around the issues surrounding the president's interaction with the president of Ukraine, asking to essentially intervene
to announce an investigation about Vice President Biden's son, Hunter Biden and the company Burisma.
Or whether they want to expand that out into questions that involved the Mueller report from earlier this year, involving the 2016 election. And it
depends on which faction of Democrats prevail to decide whether this is going to be narrower or wider in scope.
KINKADE: And what we saw, certainly from the scholars that we heard, Wednesday, during --
SWERDLICK: Yes.
KINKADE: The witnesses were constitutional experts, three that were Democratically appointed, one from the Republican side. And of course the
Democratically appointed experts all made a strong case for impeachment, whereas the one appointed --
SWERDLICK: Yes.
KINKADE: -- by the Republican said it was a weak case. This seems to be going down party lines yet again.
SWERDLICK: It does. The three witnesses called by the Democrats did, as you say, all make the case that they believed there were grounds to proceed
with impeachment. The -- the Republican-called witness, Professor Jonathan Turley from George Washington University, made the case -- he never said,
actually, that he thought that there was no case for impeachment, only that the case had not been made yet, the Democrats needed to gather more
evidence and call more witnesses.
But, yes, expect this, as you say, to go along party lines. There are probably no Republican votes in the House for impeachment. The one person
who was sort of a Republican, Congressman Amash, who used to be a Republican, now independent, might vote with the Democrats. I expect much
the same when this goes to a trial in the Senate. This really has become a very partisan divided issue.
KINKADE: It certainly has. David Swerdlick for us from the "Washington Post," CNN contributor. Good to have you with us, as always. Thank you.
SWERDLICK: Thanks, Lynda.
KINKADE: We're going to stay on this story. I want to get some additional insight on what today's announcement by the speaker of the House means.
I'm joined by former U.S. Justice Department prosecutor Joseph Moreno, as well as CNN's senior congressional correspondent Manu Raju.
[14:05:00]
First to you. In terms of -- now that we have Manu -- I just want to go back to that sound we saw at the end of Speaker Pelosi's news conference.
Clearly, she was very upset. It was indeed a head-turning moment. She was asked if she hated Donald Trump.
And the speaker doesn't generally engage in questions at the end of a conference as she leaves the room, but this one stopped her in her tracks.
And she went back to the podium. She was visibly angry. Let's just take a listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: This is about the Constitution of the United States and the facts that lead to the president's violation of his oath of office. And as a
Catholic, I resent your using the word "hate" in a sentence that addresses me. I don't hate anyone. I was raised in a way that is full -- a heart
full of love, and always pray for the president.
And I still pray for the president. I pray for the president all the time. So don't mess with me when it comes to words like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KINKADE: Don't mess with me. Well, Manu, you've followed the speaker for years as a congressional correspondent. Have you ever seen her react like
that?
MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, never. And she has made clear, she's been frustrated with me plenty of times in my back-and-
forths with her over the years, in (ph) the recent months. But never that -- quite like that. She was visibly angry, she was wagging her finger at
the reporter, telling her -- she took exception to his question.
And the question he was trying to ask, he said, was about what the Republicans have been saying, that they're simply trying to impeach
President Trump because they hate the president. And that's what she was objecting to.
And it was also significant because the argument that she has been trying to make is that the Democrats are reluctantly moving forward with
impeachment. She's trying to project an image of the party that want to deal with other issues, not deal with impeachment but the president's
actions, as she said, left them no choice, they had to move forward because, in their view, the president violated the Constitution.
So to -- when the suggestion was made that it was a personal decision, that's what really set her off this morning. But we'll get (ph) a (ph)
sense -- to see more of her, of course, tonight, when she went on with Jake Tapper. I asked her questions in a "CNN TOWN HALL" about this, but she is
trying to make clear that she didn't want to come to this, but ultimately was forced to.
KINKADE: Yes. She certainly was very reluctant to push ahead with this impeachment. I want to ask Joseph about that in just a moment.
But first, to you, Manu, on the president's reaction to Pelosi's response to that reporter. He took to Twitter, as he does, and said that Pelosi was
having a nervous fit and said that he does not believe that she prays for him.
TEXT: Donald J. Trump: Nancy Pelosi just had a nervous fit. She hates that we will soon have 182 great new judges and sooo much more. Stock
Market and employment records. She says she "prays for the President." I don't believe her, not even close. Help the homeless in your district
Nancy. USMCA?
KINKADE: What do you think he's hoping to accomplish by attacking the Democratic leader?
RAJU: Well, he's been doing this for some time, going after her, calling her Nervous Nancy or attacking, calling her names. He called her a
horrible person, of course, while sitting in front of the American Cemetery in Normandy. He's been not shy, of course, with throwing those insults
against the House speaker.
They've had their intense moments of meetings in which she stormed out of because of the way the president had dealt with her in several of those
meetings. So things have not been going well with these two.
She -- what the president is trying to do is trying to make this all about Democrats' overreach, Democrats don't have a case, they just want to get
him out of office. They're unhinged, in his view. It's a political argument he's trying to make. It's mostly to rile up his base.
We'll see how much it helps with the center of the country. But as we do now know, the country is bitterly divided over impeachment, as about half
the country supports removing him and impeaching him. That's still a significant amount, but it still shows that a lot of voters just are not
there yet, despite what they're hearing from these revelations -- Lynda.
KINKADE: Manu Raju, as always, good to have you with us on this very important story. Thanks so much.
Joseph, I want to get to you about the articles of impeachment because this is what the Democrats have said to be considering. They're saying that
there's an abuse of power and bribery as it relates to Ukraine. They're also saying obstruction of Congress for the president, refusing to hand
over documents, and preventing officials from testifying. And they're also saying obstruction of justice for the way the president tried to block the
Mueller investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election.
TEXT: Possible Impeachment Articles Under Consideration: Abuse of power and bribery; Obstruction of Congress; Obstruction of justice (including
Mueller evidence)
As a former prosecutor, what do you make of those charges? How strong is the case?
JOSEPH MORENO, FORMER U.S. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROSECUTOR: So, Lynda, I think you're absolutely right. You provided the framework of what are most
likely to be the articles of impeachment. There was a lot of back-and- forth in yesterday's hearing about whether you need a crime in order to impeach a president.
Some people feel yes, others feel no. But the consensus yesterday among all four witnesses was, technically, you don't need a crime. So I think
you are going to see a little back-and-forth about this, bribery versus abuse of office or abuse of power, and whether or not, technically, the
bribery violation is there, or if it's a little more amorphous.
[14:10:06]
At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter because it's what the House says it is. So I think you might see a bit of a side argument about
whether there's a crime or not. At the end of the day, doesn't really matter if the evidence is there and the House votes in favor of
impeachment.
As far as obstruction of justice, that's another one. And, again, we saw some tussling back and forth over whether defying a congressional subpoena
by going to court and asserting privilege is itself obstruction of justice.
And there were some good back-and-forths yesterday about whether or not that's impeachable. But again, at the end of the day, it's whatever the
House decides. No court is going to reach in here and say yes or no, you can or cannot impeach President Trump on those grounds.
So I think it's really a combination of the theories we heard yesterday, the evidence we've heard over the last few weeks. But then, really, every
individual member of Congress will have to decide for him or herself if the evidence matches the theory and if so, to vote for impeachment or not.
KINKADE: Right. You broke that down for us very well, Joseph. And just for our viewers, I just want to play some sound made by the Republican-
appointed legal witness yesterday, who says there has not been enough of an investigation yet to pursue something as serious as impeachment. Let's
just play that sound.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN TURLEY, LAW PROFESSOR, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: The abbreviated period of this investigation, which is problematic and
puzzling. This is a facially incomplete and inadequate record in order to impeach a president.
We have a record of conflicts, defenses that have not been fully considered, un-subpoenaed witness with material evidence. To impeach a
president on this record would expose every future president to the same type of inchoate impeachment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KINKADE: Joseph, what do you make of that argument? Because we obviously had the three -- like, the three experts on the Constitution who were
appointed by the Democrats, who said there is enough evidence, it's very strong. And then this expert, also on the Constitution, who said their
case is weak.
MORENO: So Professor Turley, who you just played right there, when he introduced himself, he said, I am a law professor, but I'm also a defense
lawyer. And as a defense lawyer myself, part of our job is to pick apart a prosecution. So we're always going to argue there's not enough evidence,
you need more time and you don't have, basically, what you need to convict -- or, in this case, impeach -- my client.
So I think he makes a good argument, and certainly it's an argument that anyone on the defense side is going to make. And again, it's really a
question of subjectivity. That every member of Congress can't really hide behind what some expert says. Each one of them is going to have to say,
yes, I think the evidence is here and I'm comfortable voting for impeachment. Or, no, I want to hear more, I want to see more evidence, I
want to see more documents, I want to hear from more witnesses.
So -- and I think, you know, at the end of the day, the real jury is the American people, and the American people will decide if they felt this was
a fair or unfair process, ultimately, you know, when it comes down to it.
KINKADE: That's it. It certainly is going to come down to that election next year. Former U.S. Justice Department prosecutor Joseph Moreno, great
to get your perspective. Thank you so much for joining us.
MORENO: Thank you, Lynda. Always a pleasure.
KINKADE: Well, CNN is hosting a Town Hall with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi tonight. That is at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on Thursday night, which is 10:00
a.m. Friday in Hong Kong.
Well, let's go to Paris now, where protestors are angry over French President Emmanuel Macron's efforts to overhaul the pension system. And
they're marching into the night. They're gathering around fires and shooting off what seems to be flares. Some are facing off with riot
police, who have fired tear gas.
So far, dozens of people have been detained. And this comes during the largest mass strike France has seen in decades. Despite these scenes of
violence, the movement has largely been peaceful.
Well, tens of thousands of people have joined in the nationwide strike including rail workers, teachers and ambulance drivers. And Melissa Bell
has been covering this story and joins us now, live from Paris.
And, Melissa, these protestors said their aim was to paralyze the city. And we are seeing these protests right across the country. You've been out
amongst it today. Give us a sense of what you saw.
MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT: Well, on that front, it really was mission accomplished, Lynda. Ninety percent of trains didn't run, and many
people had simply decided to stay home today rather than trying to get themselves to work.
We've just had the Interior Ministry figures about the number of people out on the streets because there was, of course, the strike, but then there was
the march in Paris, but in other cities as well. Eight hundred and six thousand people across France took part today, that is a pretty big number.
To put it in comparison with, for instance, the very early yellow vests' protests, we were looking at, you know, 250,000 people across the country.
So that is a substantial amount of people who took to the streets of France today to make their anger plain.
[14:15:03]
And for the first time, it wasn't just the public sector unions. It was the first time that the yellow vests had joined a union movement. I think
that's why you had so many people in the street, and it's also why you had such tension and so many of the marches, not only here in Paris but also in
cities like Bordeaux and Toulouse and Lyons, there were scuffles.
We saw, here in Paris, we followed that protest march throughout, from the Gare du Nord. It's made its way to Internationale (ph), where people are
still there, are still, tonight, protesting with those fires, as you said, trying to keep the cold at bay.
We saw, at several points during that march along the route, where along -- many of the businesses had shut in anticipation of the violence that was
likely to occur. A number of flash points emerged, tear gas was fired by the police, projectiles were thrown by the protestors. We saw a number of
people wounded. So it was fairly tense and pretty angry. And the determination of the protestors was pretty great.
I guess the next question is, Lynda, really, how long they can keep France paralyzed. Already the train unions have announced that they're going to
carry on with their strike until Monday, but that has -- they have the possibility of then prolonging that.
We know that a number of airlines have cancelled some flights, not only internally in France tomorrow, Lynda, but also on some of those medium-haul
European flights, so some people will see some delay.
The big question is, can Macron do better than the last president who attempted this? It was back in 1995, Jacques Chirac was president, Alain
Juppe was his prime minister. They, too, tried to create a universal pension system. It took three weeks of paralysis strike, 2 million people
in the streets for them to back down and shelve their reform.
Will Emmanuel Macron stay firm this time? That is the question that is facing him tonight -- Lynda.
KINKADE: That is indeed the question. All right. Melisa Bell, we will speak to you again soon, no doubt, as these protests continue across
France. Melissa Bell in Paris, thank you.
Well, still to come tonight, Iran is condemning accusations that it's developing ballistic missiles that could carry nuclear warheads. The
European powers are urging the United Nations to look at the evidence. We're going to have more on that story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINKADE: Welcome back. Well, Iran is firing back at allegations by world superpowers that it has developed nuclear-capable ballistic missiles.
Ambassadors from France, Germany and the U.K. have sent a joint letter to the United Nations secretary-general, warning that Iran is developing
ballistic missiles that could potentially carry a nuclear warhead. That would violate the Iran nuclear deal and the United Nations Security Council
resolution that endorsed that accord. Well, Iran's foreign minister calls the letter a desperate falsehood.
Now, those accusations come amid new fears that Iran is moving short-range ballistic missiles into Iraq. CNN's senior international correspondent Sam
Kiley is following this story for us.
[14:20:02]
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Lynda, France, Germany and the United Kingdom have accused the Iranians once again -- this is the
fourth time they've done this -- of developing ballistic missiles that are capable of carrying a nuclear weapon.
They are not accusing them of using a nuclear weapon, or even developing a nuclear weapon. There's no allegation that they're anywhere close to being
able to produce one, let alone mount it on a ballistic missile.
But what they are concerned about, and have been for many years now, is an incremental development process including attempts to use a space program
to develop the sort of ballistic missiles that many people -- many nations in the West, notably the United States and indeed Russia, have, which are
intercontinental.
Now, at the moment, the allegation is that the Shahab-3 in particular, a missile that is capable, according to this letter, of traveling some 1,100
kilometers -- carrying a payload of 500 kilograms and a warhead, potentially, of 300 kilograms -- would fit -- along with guidance systems
that are allegedly fitted to it -- would fit the definition of the U.N.'s idea of what is a nuclear-capable ballistic missile. That is, one capable
of delivering a nuke, not of actually having nuclear weapons to deliver.
The Iranians have hit back and said, well, that's all very likely, all very legalistic terms, all very couched and conceivable, likely, based on social
media, some of the intelligence, they say, that has led to this allegation. And generally pooh-poohing the whole line coming from those three European
nations.
But this comes at a time when the Pentagon has reported recently that a ship was intercepted by U.S. forces, carrying a large number of what they
claim was a sophisticated missile technology, destination unknown, when there have been also reported movements of short-range missiles from
Iranian territory into Iraq, and of course the Iranians being blamed, not so long ago, for missile strikes on Saudi Arabia itself.
So in that context, Lynda, this has some at a very tense time.
KINKADE: Certainly a tense time. Sam Kiley, there, thanks so much.
Well, right now, we are a week away from a general election in the U.K. and it is shaping up to be one of the most consequential polls in decades.
Boris Johnson's Conservatives have maintained a strong lead in the polls, due in part to his clear line on Brexit.
The opposition Liberal Democrats plan to cancel it altogether, and Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party is somewhere in between: They want to hold another
referendum.
CNN's Nic Robertson joins us now from London for more on this story. Nic, so Boris Johnson has made another promise of a Brexit deadline, saying that
he will make it happen by the end of January. That, of course, after he said he'd make it happen, with or without a deal, by the end of October.
Will voters believe this new deadline?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. Before, he said that he would rather be dead in a ditch than go to the E.U. and ask for an
extension. But effectively, that's what happened.
Look, I think voters are really tired and fed up, and Boris Johnson's been there (ph) to capitalize on this. Those that wanted Brexit all along are
just, you know, want to see Boris Johnson get it done. As he says, let's get Brexit done and then the country can move on to other things.
So there's -- so there is something of a degree of, these are politicians and just, we don't trust any of them, but just get on with it and get it
out of the way.
And then there's the counterargument that we're beginning to hear more of, over the past couple of weeks, and particularly this week seems to be a
real point that Boris Johnson's being targeted on. And that is, look, you know, you say you're going to get Brexit done by the 31st of January, but
the reality is that's the divorce part. You've got to then negotiate the next part, which is what your future relationship is.
So, no, you're not getting Brexit done at all, far from it. You're wading into a whole new series of negotiations, the period of time you've set for
that is way too short and there's a possibility you could crash out this time next year without having a deal at all.
So is he trusted on that? I think the best example we had of that recently, when he was asked on a -- a leaders' sort of face-to-face
leaders' question on the upcoming election. You know, he was asked if politicians should be trusted. And when he started to answer, the audience
laughed back. And I think that tells you a lot about what people think about the current crop of politicians and, in particular, Boris Johnson who
does have a trust deficit already.
KINKADE: Yes. Not the response he would have wanted.
So this is the third election in less than four years. And it seems to show -- from what we've seen from the polls -- that Jeremy Corbyn, the
opposition leader, still lagging behind. And I have to wonder why his party hasn't done better, why they haven't capitalized on the fact that
this government has failed to deliver Brexit, their one key promise.
[14:25:07]
ROBERTSON: Yes. I think for Jeremy Corbyn here, the failure to land his message, so to speak, comes from a couple of issues. One is that he is the
most unpopular Labour leader in about 40 years. And that's not saying Boris Johnson's got huge popularity numbers, he's also way into negative
territory, just Jeremy Corbyn is worse.
Then there's the perception that Labour is always weak on the economy and weak on security, and those are big issues right now. So Jeremy Corbyn is
sort of handicapped in that regard. But he's been doubly handicapped, handcuffed himself, if you will, by his Brexit proposals, which confuse
people.
They're actually relatively straightforward. If they win, then they would negotiate a different type of deal with the European Union and then put it
to the people of Britain to vote on it. It's relatively straightforward, but he's not been able to communicate that, and the Conservatives are able
to, you know, able to sort of push on that point of confusion from his party and confusion from him, and his inability to say whether he wants to
be in the European Union or out.
So that's why Labour's having a tough time. They were coming back in the polls, it appeared, last week, a little bit. Now it's still about 10
points between the pair.
KINKADE: That is significant. He's only got a week to try and provide some clarity. Nic Robertson from London, good to have you with us. Thank
you.
Well, still to come tonight, lawmakers in the U.S. have announced their next steps in the impeachment inquiry into the U.S. president, what we're
learning about the possible scope of those challenges.
Plus, some Italian football teams are standing united against racism after a newspaper published a controversial front page featuring two black
players. Now, those footballers are speaking out.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINKADE: Welcome back. Well, the Judiciary Committee in the U.S. House of Representatives says the next impeachment hearing will be Monday.
Lawmakers will hear from lawyers from both the Judiciary and Intelligence Committees.
The plan for the hearings suggests that charges from the Mueller investigation could be included in the articles of impeachment brought
against U.S. President Donald Trump.
Well, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi announced earlier that lawmakers are moving forward with the impeachment process, a historic step that is
likely to make Mr. Trump the third U.S. president in history to be impeached.
Stephen Collinson joins me now from Washington with more on all of this. Good to have you with us, Stephen.
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Hey.
KINKADE: So I just want to quickly get your reaction to Nancy Pelosi first, because it was quite kind of a head-turning moment when she walked
away from the podium after giving a press conference, to come back to answer a reporter's question who basically said that he must be -- he must
hate President Trump, like, why else would you do this?
[14:30:00]
And she, from the very start, has been reluctant to push through with impeachment, hasn't she?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes. All through the beginning of this year towards the end of the Russia investigation, Nancy
Pelosi was very reticent about moving ahead with impeachment even though a growing number of Democrats in the House wanted to do so.
It was only when the whistleblower report came out about the Ukraine situation that she basically, I think, admitted defeat and basically knew
that she had no choice but to push forward with impeachment given the gravity of the charges against the president.
That moment you were talking about in the House this morning was when a journalist asked her, as you said, if she hated the president. She made a
strong case that what she's doing has nothing to do with personality. That she's defending the institutions of the United States, the political
institutions.
Democrats are now making a case that the flagrant abuses that they see Trump committed in Ukraine using his power to get political gain from a
foreign nation are so threatening to the ideas of U.S. governments and the values of democracy that they have no option but to press forward and press
forward quickly to safeguard the 2020 election.
So, Stephen, we've heard a lot of evidence so far building towards impeachment. But I just want to have a look at public opinion on all of
this, because the most recent CNN poll shows that the public appears firmly divided on whether Mr. Trump should be impeach and removed from office. 50
percent say yes, 43 percent no. That's especially the same as what it was in October.
So a slight change of opinion earlier in the year, but in recent weeks, it appears people are more entrench in their positions. Why is that? Why --
given the Democrats are really trying to build this case for impeachment, they don't seem to be swaying voters.
COLLINSON: I think it gets the utter polarization of the United States politically and the attitudes towards President Trump. After all, the
president has used division as a means of governor. He governs for his own political base. He's never really reached out.
Those figures are interesting for a couple reasons. First of all, because they show that the televised hearings which some Democrats hoped would
really stack the deck against the Republicans and the president didn't really change the political situation.
But put it this way, 50 percent of the people in the United States think the president should be impeached and removed from office. You know, if
that was the lineup of a general election, it probably would lead Trump not to get a second term. If you look at the recent impeachment process with
President Nixon in the 70s, President Clinton in the 1990s, the number of Americans who thought that the president should be impeached and removed
was much, much lower.
So I think it does show that there was a great deal of concern in the country about the president's behavior, but he has his rock solid
republican support which never will desert him. And I think that's what we're seeing here.
People are not necessarily willing to believe that he did anything wrong and the president has been a very skilled manipulator of this situation
towards his political base.
KINKADE: It's interesting when you look at the case that the Democrats are trying to build here. They're not just focusing on that call that
President Trump made to the leader of Ukraine asking for them to dig up dirt on a political rival. They're broadening it out, really.
And they're also looking at obstruction of justice when it comes to the way he behaved during the Mueller investigation, the investigation into Russian
interference in the 2016 election. Is that a good move on their part?
COLLINSON: It's a contentious move for many Democrats because if you bring the Russia situation in, it allows Republicans to argue that you know, this
is just a hoax just like the Russia situation was. And Robert Mueller didn't find significant evidence to suggest a prosecution or impeachment of
the president in that situation.
But what Democrats are arguing is in the Ukraine matter, that the president has thwarted their impeachment investigations, stuffing and getting key
witnesses, refusing 71 requests for documents.
Mueller, in his report about the Russia investigation, listed a number of clear attempts that looked like the president tried to obstruct that
investigation, too, so it could strengthen the case that the president is a serial obstructer of Congress in flagrant abuse of a constitution if they
can bring that particular part of the Mueller report on obstruction into the articles of impeachment on this and it strengthens the case that the
president is a serial obstructer and that is an impeachable offense.
[14:35:12]
KINKADE: Stephen, I want to get your perspective on what this means when it gets to the Senate because if the U.S. has that vote to impeach the
president, the trial will go to the Senate, which of course, is controlled by republicans, when the Senate majority leader was asked about a possible
trial, this is what Mitch McConnell had to say. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): It's impossible to answer your question right now. We're going to have to decide once we get this matter from the House,
if we do, how are we going to handle it? And the three ways it could be handled by bipartisan agreement on procedure, by 51 senators deciding what
the procedure is going to be or basically kind of a jump ball having to answer your question. Because there is no answer at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KINKADE: There is no answer to this point. He doesn't sound like he's preparing for it. Even though it sounds like the word is that some
senators are being told to clear their diary for January.
COLLINSON: Mitch McConnell is one of the shrewdest political operators in Washington and he keeps his cards very close to his chest.
So he's probably trying to give the impression for political reasons that he is not preparing for this trial.
But I'm very sure that behind the scenes, Republicans and Democrats, particularly the Senate majority leader, working out the stakes. What
we're seeing now is a sort of a positioning by both sides in the Senate. There can have to be a negotiations between Democrats and Republicans to
see if they can get an agreement on the Rules of the trial which witnesses can be brought forward. It's very interesting that the president is now
calling for Joe Biden to be brought before this trial. Hunter Biden, his son, who had a business in Ukraine.
He wants Nancy Pelosi to testify. The president clearly wants to turn this into a circus and a show trial. Doesn't seem to me that Mitch McConnell
would be that interested in that. So we've got a lot of things in play about how the Senate trial is going to go forward, but they are very
clearly now working out how this is going to go ahead, because it's now inevitable that the president will be impeached before Christmas.
KINKADE: It certainly does seem inevitable.
All right. Stephen Collinson, good to have you with us, as always. Thanks so much.
Well, an Italian newspaper is defending its front page amid widespread criticism. The Rome-based national sports newspaper says its headline,
"Black Friday," has been twisted into poison. The headline refers to two star players in a preview of tomorrow's match.
But it comes at a time when Italian football has been lambasted for the way it's handled racist incidents. Don Riddell reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Black Friday. It's not a sales promotion and it's not an advert for some discounted
goods. This is the headline in the Italian paper, Corriere dello Sport, topping a story about two black football players and it has unleashed a
furious backlash.
DARREN LEWIS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I was staggered, actually, Don, because Italy's had so many problems for so long. And so it just seemed remarkable
that they would shoot themselves in the foot with such a negative headline.
RIDDELL: Black Friday is an appalling on goal from a publication which says it was trying to celebrate the players, Romelu Lukaku and Chris
Smalling. The paper's editor criticized those who took offense, writing quote, "An innocent title actually perfectly argued by Roberto Perrone, is
transformed into poison by those who have poison inside themselves."
Both Lukaku and Smalling are new to Italian football this season. They'll play each other on Friday when Inter host Roma in Serie A.
In September, Lukaku was taunted at Cagliari by fans making monkey noises.
(CROWD CHANTING)
Later that week, Smalling arrived in Italy and was asked about it.
CHRIS SMALLING, ENGLISH PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALLER: Racism is unacceptable and it shouldn't be stood for, but I think it's not an issue just in Italy.
I think it's around the world, and I think there needs to be a change. I think there's going to be generational changes and younger people will
learn not to act like that. But I think it's a world issue and I think it happens all over the world. But it's very sad that it does happen in these
modern times.
RIDDELL: In recent years, racism has been on the rise across the European continent, and Italy is often cited as one of the worst offenders.
In November, Brescia's Mario Balotelli kicked the ball at Verona's fans who were abusing him. Balotelli tried to leave the field but he was encouraged
to stay by players from both teams. He's no stranger to racism in Italy, both casual and deliberate.
In 2012, another sports newspaper, Gazzetta dello Sport, depicted him as King Kong.
In 2017, Sulley Muntari, complained about racist abuse and he was booked for it. He left the field in protest and in disgust.
[14:40:05]
SULLEY MUNTARI, GHANIAN FOOTBALLER: They said I, I, I only feel that I'm a really tall guy on the field, but when it comes out on the field, I really
get emotional sometimes. I'm human.
RIDDELL: Campaigners who want Italy to do better are disheartened when it's brushed under the rug or dismissed as something other than racism.
But they are encouraged that this article was trying to highlight these players in a positive way.
The casual racism in the headline though indicates just how much works still needs to be done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KINKADE: Well, Don Riddell joins me now for more on this. It's fascinating story and that the headline really didn't match the rest of the
story. But in terms of the players and how they're reacting, what are they saying about this?
RIDDELL: Well, to say that these two players are disappointed would be an understatement. I can tell you exactly what they said because they both
took it to social media to air their views about it today.
Romelu Lukaku, as I pointed out in that report has already been already racially abused by fans in Serie A this season. He wrote, "You guys keep
fueling the negativity and the racism issue, education is key. You guys of Corriere dello Sport should do a better job at that."
And Chris Smalling said, "Whilst I would have liked to spend the day focusing on the big game tomorrow, it is important that I acknowledge that
what occurred this morning was wrong and highly insensitive." He went on, "I hope the editors involved in running this headline take responsibility
and understand the power they possess through words and the impact those words can have."
Those two players, obviously, they represent different teams. They're going head to head on Friday, but very united in their position. And it's
interesting, Lynda, to see other clubs uniting against this newspaper, Corriere dello Sport.
Roma, which represents one of the players involved, Chris Smalling. And A.C. Milan, a completely different team, have actually announced today that
they have banned the newspaper from visiting their training facilities for the rest of this month. They've also said that none of their players will
be doing any interviews with them until January next year.
The reason they have said that they didn't ban them for longer is because they recognize that actually the content of the article was trying to be
positive, but that the headline was just an absolutely dreadful mistake and they kind of want to call them out for that.
KINKADE: A dreadful mistake, but one it seems the editors of the paper haven't apologized for. They don't think there was anything wrong. They
don't think they were discriminating, they didn't think it was racist.
RIDDELL: Yes. And they have accused people who would like to say that they're in the right, people who call out racism are basically looking for
problems elsewhere and saying, well, that's racism, that's racism.
That's one of the problems they have in Italy is that a lot of people will argue. Well, it's not racism, it's just the way it's done around here.
And so you have basically two completely opposite sets of views. And people think to finally hard to see from the other point of view.
But there is no doubt that racism is a problem in Italian football. We have seen so many examples of that over the years and particularly this
season.
KINKADE: Take us through some of those examples, because this isn't a one off case. This is happening almost weekly we're seeing cases like this.
RIDDELL: Right. So Romelu Lukaku, one of the players who was featured in the newspaper article, he was trying to take a penalty at Cagliari earlier
this season. And while he was lining up the kick, you could hear monkey noises coming from the crowd.
Mario Balotelli, a player who has often been on the receiving end of such abuse was involved in a match this year where he was so incensed by what
was happening in the crowd, he could hear it, he could hear what they were chanting at him.
He angrily kicked the ball into the crowd to make his point and he tried to leave the field. He ended up completing the game because players on both
sides were trying to keep him on the field.
But he wanted to make a point, and you are seeing more and more, players are becoming a much more confident about calling this out and threatening
to walk off.
KINKADE: As they should.
RIDDELL: As they should, but for so long, they've been cowed by this idea that they shouldn't draw attention to it. They should keep a stiff upper
lip. You know, show the abusers that they're better than that.
But the counterargument is that you're actually letting the racists win, because they still get to watch their game of football and they get to
abuse you as well in the process.
And I do think we are approaching a point where players in different countries are going to just say, we really have had enough now. The
authorities don't seem interested or willing in tackling this, punishing these clubs and their fans. And so we're just going to stop playing
football. It hasn't really happened yet, but I do think we're getting closer.
KINKADE: And so you think that's the way it's going to go? Because what else is going to address this issue? Because clearly, the newspaper thinks
it's done no wrong in this case.
RIDDELL: Right.
KINKADE: Two clubs are taking action. When we see other clubs take action, what else could possibly happen?
RIDDELL: Maybe. You know, perhaps Inter Milan will have something to say. I mean, it was their city rivals, AC Milan, who have taken action and
banned this newspaper. Not yet Inter Milan.
You know, I mean, I'm talking about now lots of different countries and it's happening in England, and this still happen in Bulgaria and it's
happened in, you know, in Eastern Europe as well. All very, very recently.
[14:45:06]
One of the problems is that each country has its own governing body, and then there's UEFA, which is the European Football governing body. And then
there's FIFA which is the world governing body.
And we've spoken to players who've experienced this kind of thing all through their careers and they say that none of them seem interested. They
all kicked the can or past the buck to the other and then it gets passed all the way back down.
But we do know that this week, the head of UEFA, Aleksander Ceferin, has said that he is listening, he is aware of what's going on, and they do want
to start taking tougher action. We'll wait and see if what happens, but the authorities are starting to talk about doing something about it.
KINKADE: Right. If they don't stand up to it and the players don't stand up to it, as you say, things won't change.
But Don Riddell, good to have you with us.
RIDDELL: Sure.
KINKADE: Thank you.
Well, still to come tonight, Samoa takes drastic action to stop its deadly measles outbreak. Nearly all services are shut down so the government can
do one thing, vaccinate. Thousands of people right across the country. We're going to have details on that story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINKADE: Welcome back.
Well, red flags are flying across the pacific island nation of Samoa. They marked each house where people have not yet been vaccinated against the
measles. The Samoan government is taking drastic action to stop the deadly outbreak. It's already ravaged the country and killed dozens of people.
CNN's Ivan Watson has more now on the toll from this disease.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Noelle (ph) was only 1-year-old when a long forgotten disease claimed her life.
ELSIE LOLESIO, DAUGHTER DIED OF MEASLES: She's gone, and I'll never forget her the way I tried to teach her how to talk.
WATSON: Noel is buried next to her cousin, who died just three days earlier.
LOLESIO: It's very hard. Sorry.
WATSON: These two children are among the dozens of victims of a measles outbreak in the pacific island nation of Samoa. Thousands of cases have
been reported in recent weeks.
The government is ordering businesses to close and shutting down all but essential services. As it implements a massive vaccination campaign.
TUILAEPA SAILELE MALIELEGAOI, PRIME MINISTER OF SAMOA: We have declared two days of holiday so that everybody stays at home. No one should be on
the roads.
WATSON: Here, the red flags are a warning, hanging outside the homes of those who have not been vaccinated. Measles vaccinations rates in the
country had dropped significantly before the outbreak began in October and the government says it knows why.
MALIELEGAOI: We have so many anti-vaccine people.
[14:50:01]
WATSON: Samoa is not alone. Unproven conspiracy theories about the side effects of vaccination have contributed to a resurgence of measles around
the world, in both low and high income countries, including the United States. The disease is highly contagious, but it is also preventable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three, two, one, and done.
WATSON: Simple and nearly painless. Vaccination against measles is as fast as medical procedures get.
But for many in Samoa, it is simply too late.
Ivan Watson, CNN, Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KINKADE: We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KINKADE: Welcome back.
Inspired by a fishing trip as a child, a scientist has come up with a way to make fish farming more sustainable and keep more fish in the ocean. It
involves growing food from fly larva to make an alternative to fish meal. It's called AgriProtein, and it's in today's "GOING GREEN" story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A British man reached back to his childhood memories for green inspiration.
JASON DREW, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, AGRIPROTEIN: From where I sit the future's broken and we need to get busy repairing it. Reducing waste,
increasing food sustainability and getting back to the real world and recycling it 100 percent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Compelled by a desire to improve the world, it was a fishing trip with his grandfather that led him on his green journey.
DREW: I remember it as a kid in north of England, the way to catch a fish was tying a fly onto the line, get it into the water. So I thought, hang
on a sec. Couldn't we use flies, breed them on mass and then feed those to fish on fish farms. Fish farming which this current form was disastrous,
although it's expanding very rapidly because it takes in more fish from the sea than it produces in the fish farm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So he set up the world's first commercial fly farm in South Africa. He's producing flies by the millions and selling them to
farmers.
DREW: These are one of our typical fly cages. In here, there are tens of thousands of flies, mating and laying eggs. This is where they live. It's
warm in here. It must be 31.5 degrees. The flies are absolutely loving it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The flies are kept in cages that mimic nature and maximize reproduction.
DREW: When you turn on the blue lights, it's a bit like turning on the slow song at the end of the school disco. And all mayhem breaks loose and
we get the results that we want.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The flies lay eggs on the gritsm (ph), they then moved to the waste area. Once hatched, Jason says it takes approximately 11 or
12 days until they become fully formed. They then get brought back here again and take them to this machine here which starts to separate out the
larvae from the faster soil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Finally, the larvae is milled into a protein rich product. A sustainable substitute for fish meal.
DREW: So waste-waste prevention, food-food security and doing something that's natural.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KINKADE: Well recently, we've been taking you on a culinary tour of Budapest. Going inside kitchens and meeting with chefs who are
revolutionizing Hungarian cuisine by injecting a modern twist on traditional dishes.
Well, today, we met the team behind Salt, the latest fine dining institution to open up.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[14:55:07]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deep within a forest outside Budapest, two men behind the city's latest fine dining institution are foraging for ingredients.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is green juniper. We use with the coffee for the soup.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mate and Szilard Toth opened the doors to their restaurant, Salt, last month. Dishing up creations that celebrate
traditional dishes from eastern Hungary.
MATE BOLDIZSAR, MANAGER AND CO-FOUNDER, SALT: We call that lots of ingredients in the nature. And if you look around the restaurant, you can
see different kind of things what we were collecting in the forest and we fermented it. We pickled it.
SZILARD TOTH, CHEF AND CO-FOUNDER, SALT (through translator): We find so many basic ingredients that an average chef does not really see very often.
So we can introduce a world of flavors for our food, amazing flavor pairings which can't really be found anywhere else.
ANDRAS JOKUTI, HUNGARIAN FOOD CRITIC: (INAUDIBLE) is coming from the eastern part of Hungary, which is traditionally even poorer than the other
parts.
Foraging was their thing. It was not just a -- it's not just a trend of the new times, but it was very important to how somehow stay alive.
He is trying to get all the interesting and amazing ingredients from Hungary and then trying to create something totally new.
BOLDIZSAR: We have a course called greasy bread. The original form is a very, very simple dish and everybody can't decide to be put in a tiny
crispy piece of bread and we put some bacon on it.
And also, we put some caviar on it and lime skin. So we make this simple dish for like fine dining dish.
JOKUTI: He shows that it is -- it is very much possible to create a very hedonistic, but still very modern meal from sometimes humble, sometimes not
so humble, but very Hungarian ingredients.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KINKADE: Looks delicious.
Well, thanks so much for watching tonight. I'm Lynda Kinkade. Stay with CNN. "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
