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House Set for Historic Floor Vote on Impeachment Wednesday; Sources: Anti-Impeachment Democrat Expected to Defect to GOP; At Least One Dead After Earthquake Hits Philippines; Official: Trump Plans to Announce Afghanistan Troop Reduction. Aired 7-8a ET

Aired December 15, 2019 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


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[07:00:33]

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another big week in Washington as the House of Representatives is poised to vote to impeach President Donald Trump. That's putting pressure on moderate Democrats.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources are now telling us that Congressman Van Drew, a Democrat from New Jersey, he's expected to switch parties.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): I want to tell Jeff Van Drew that he is welcome in Republican Party. Not just by me, by our conference. And we would support him and we would welcome him to join.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The U.S. is preparing to announce a drawdown of about 4,000 troops from Afghanistan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of this is, of course, coming as the U.S. has restarted those peace talks with the Taliban. All this is way of demonstrating that while the Democrats are impeaching him, President Donald Trump is working.

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ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY WEEKEND with Victor Blackwell and Christi Paul.

CHRISTI PAUL, CNN ANCHOR: We want to wish you a good Sunday morning here, as we are just days away from a historic impeachment vote in the House.

This morning, we have learned one Democratic congressman is likely preparing perhaps to announce that he's not only planning to vote against impeachment, that he's actually planning to switch to the Republican Party.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: Sources tell CNN that Congressman Jeff Van Drew of New Jersey will announce the move this week. Now, while the defection may give a symbolic victory for President Trump, it probably will not chance the outcome of the impeachment vote on Wednesday.

PAUL: Van Drew has been an unspoken critic of impeaching the president, but many Democrats say he simply is trying to save his own congressional seat by switching parties.

BLACKWELL: Let's go to CNN's Kristen Holmes.

Kristen, this is a big week for the White House. How are they preparing for Wednesday's vote?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Victor.

Well, President Trump we know behind closed doors is grilling aides. He wants to know what they are doing to remain on the offensive and the White House already has a laid-out plan to respond on Wednesday to this vote. President Trump has a rally in Michigan, a Merry Christmas rally. And last year, it wasn't even impeachment when none of this was going on, President Trump emerged from chimney like Santa Claus, to fake snows, already a show there. So, you can expect even a bigger reaction during that rally at that time.

But we have to remember something. There is no indication that the House is not going to approve these articles of impeachment. Yes, there are moderate Democrats who have now announced how they will vote. However, we don't have sort of idea from Democrats they are concerned about this at all. So, really the focus is now on that trial in the senate.

We know Mitch McConnell is working with White House counsel to kind of craft how that is going to look.

On the other side of that in the House, even with this vote looming, you really are seeing the Democrats and the Republicans trying their best to show that their party is not a party that is consumed by impeachment. They announced the trade deal on Tuesday. That was between Democrats and president Trump. We saw that there was a federal spending bill that was unveiled, negotiators from both sides here and that is likely avert a government shutdown.

These members of the House of Representatives, they are eager to get this off their plates. They have to return home from the holidays, they have to -- for the holidays, excuse me. They have to meet with their constituents and show they are doing something other than impeachment.

PAUL: I want to get to Congressman Van Drew's pending -- impending we believe defection. It is expected. But what are Republicans planning to do with that?

HOLMES: Well, it's going to be interesting to see how exactly they unveil this. So, we have to keep this in mind. Unsurprisingly, President Trump, Republicans are really embracing idea. It is a welcome distraction to the impeachment vote, this high profile Democratic defection.

But now, we've learned that Van Drew was here at the White House meeting with President Trump and there's a conversation how they are going to announce this. Are we waiting for Van Drew, as a Democrat, vote against impeachment and then announce the switch so that it shows a clear defection there, or have them do it beforehand and it looks like it might be the latter there. So, this is kind of a political game.

And, again, President Trump embracing Van Drew. He was tweeting about this yesterday, remarking on several stories. He said at one point, thank you for your honesty, Jeff. All of the Democrats know you're right, but unlike you, they don't have the guts to say so.

[07:05:02]

And then he commented on a story how Van Drew met with the president saying, wow, big always heard Jeff is very smart. As you said, Republicans all over the place here embracing this idea. Again, a welcome distraction.

Listen to Kevin McCarthy yesterday.

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MCCARTHY: I want to tell Jeff Van Drew that he is welcome in the Republican Party. Not just by me but by our conference, and we would support him and we would welcome him to join.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And so, just one important thing to note here. We believe that this is an attempt to save his political career by Van Drew. We have heard from sources that internal polling showed that he was losing support of the Democratic Party, so this would help hip avoid the Democratic Party which if the internal polls are correct he eventually would probably lose.

BLACKWELL: All right. Kristen Holmes for us there at the White House -- Kristen, thank you.

PAUL: Well, former federal prosecutor and CNN legal analyst Shan Wu is with us now, as well Kevin Robillard, senior political reporter for "HuffPost".

Gentlemen, good morning to both of you.

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.

PAUL: So, I want to ask first about Congressman Van Drew.

Kevin, we know that the timing of the announcement is something that we are, obviously, watching. This is an anti-impeachment Democrat who has voted along Democratic lines really for most of his term thus far. But what do you make of his motivation here? Is this a true show of support for the president or a man who is just trying to hold on to his job?

KEVIN ROBILLARD, SENIOR POLTICAL REPORTER, HUFFPOST: It appears to be mostly the latter. At this point, he was clearly losing the support of Democrats back in his home district, a group of candidates he backed sort at the state legislative level and this fall's elections did really poorly. There's public polling showing that -- excuse me, some internal polling that Democrats have leaked out showing only 22 percent of the Democrats in his district wanted him to be the party's nominee again.

So, he is fairly clearly losing support. While he has voted with Democratic leadership on most major bills in Congress, he is more considered a conservative Democrat. He is gun rights supporter and has 100 percent rating from the NRA. So, this was already one of the most conservative Democrats in the House of Representatives and now it sort of makes a certain amount of sense he is switching parties.

PAUL: Shan, what do you make of the timing of it, before or after the impeachment vote?

WU: Well, from a strategic point of view, I think they like the idea of him not switching parties before the vote. So, I think he should switch after to get the most bang for the buck for the Republicans because that makes it looks like they can spin it as a Democrat with conscience as a Democrat worried about losing his seat.

PAUL: I want to listen to you here with something that Senator Lindsey graham said to CNN's Becky Anderson yesterday what he plans to do going into this impeachment as it's expected to make it to the senate.

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SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I'm trying to giving a clear signal I've made up my mind. I'm not trying to pretend to be a fair juror here.

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PAUL: He said, I'm not trying to pretend to be a fair juror here. Put that together with the oath that senators will take going into a Senate trial. They will say, I solemnly swear or affirm as the case may be that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald Trump now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: so help me God.

Shan, put those two things together, contrast it for us.

WU: Well, if I were advising the senator, I would focus on the word "justice" there, and the word justice is going to be open to some interpretation. He is not promising or taking oath to be an impartial juror the way he would have to in a court proceeding. I think he is quite well aware of the difference, that this is a legal proceeding, but it takes place in the Senate in the political forum.

I think he is very well aware of that and he likes to pick and choose which courtroom type rules he would like to use. They will talk about hearsay and statutory elements that would apply in a courtroom. Obviously, quite hypocritical to cherry-pick what is convenient to them and not convenient to them. PAUL: Obviously, there's so much division when it comes to this, this

whole situation, and I want to listen with both of you to what happened to Representative Tom Malinowski, a Democrat from New Jersey yesterday, when he was at a town hall, just to get a sense what they are up against in their own districts.

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REP. TOM MALINOWSKI (D-NJ): Based on the evidence that I have seen in the depositions, in the hearings, in the documents I have seen, I believe that on the two counts of impeachment that have been put before us that the vote should be us and I will be voting yes.

(CHEERS)

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PAUL: Kevin, you hear the cheers, you hear the boos from people that are there to listen to him.

[07:10:04]

Help us understand what these lawmakers are up against, that what line they are being really forced to take here, as they should, because they are representing their districts.

ROBILLARD: Yes, it is a tough vote for some of these people. You've heard some moderate Democrats they might split the baby and vote yes on one article impeachment and not on another and interesting to see how many go that route. But it's also important to say, as much as these impeachment town halls are getting very emotional, you haven't really seen in sort of the broader public polling that is available any indication that impeachment is really yet endangering some of these moderate Democrats.

Trump's campaign manager Brad Parscale tweeted out a few weeks ago polling they had done in the districts of the one of the most vulnerable House Democrats, Congresswoman Kendra Horn. And even that didn't really make the case that her impeachment is what was going to somehow sink when she's running for reelection in 2020.

So it's tough to see. This might be a tough vote for them but hard to say it might cost any of these people their seats sort of in 2020.

PAUL: Got you.

And so, Senator Angus King who is an independent tweeted this, he said: The American people need to see impartial justice. History will record that this is not only a trial in the Senate, it's a trial of the Senate.

Shan, at the end of the day when this is over, what do you prognosticate the state of this Union, of the U.S. will be?

WU: I think state the Union will still be strong. This is really a continuation of a great divide and partisanship that's been going on for quite some time that really slip Trump into office or allowed him to squeak into office. It's just more of the same. I think that's really important here for the Democrats to think about is the jury is not really the Senate. That is a foregone conclusion they will not remove the president.

The jury is the American people when they go to the election polls and to do that, I think, it's really important that they paint a broad picture of the misconduct. I wish they had gone broad rather than narrow with the articles of impeachment but because it's not a court trial, they are not hemmed in by a lot of the rules of evidence or no character evidence like in a civil or criminal trial. They can put in a lot of the other misconduct and really show the American people that these offenses are offenses against our Constitution and important to get out there.

PAUL: Kevin Robillard, Shan Wu, always grateful to have you both with us. Thank you, gentlemen.

ROBILLARD: Good to be on.

WU: Thank you.

BLACKWELL: A breaking news now. We know a 6-year-old girl is dead this morning after a powerful 6.8 magnitude earthquake rocked the southern Philippines. We are told the girl was inside her family home when a wall collapsed.

PAUL: It happened on the southern island there. Early reports from the USGS say the epicenter was inland and it was not in the water and they say there is no chance of a tsunami. That is the good news coming out of this.

BLACKWELL: Take a look at the video when the earthquake hit. You can see the swimming pool here shaking violently. We have more video of customers just running from local restaurant to get away from any structures.

PAUL: Situation still very active there. Search and rescue operations are under way.

BLACKWELL: We got this video last hour showing rescuers pulling someone from a partially collapsed building. Look at it.

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PAUL: You hear the cheering there. They are cheering on the rescue workers really doing their best to save lives there.

We're going to continue to follow this through the day and let you know what we have learned. We will pass it on to you right away.

BLACKWELL: When we come back, a major draw-down in the so-called America's forever war. Thousands of U.S. troops could soon be pulled from Afghanistan.

PAUL: And a frightening situation for holiday shoppers at an Atlanta mall. Shots were fired and that gunman is still on the loose this morning.

BLACKWELL: And thousands of troops will receive a greeting from home this holiday season, thanks to one woman. We hear from the New Hampshire grandmother who has launched the holiday cards for our military challenge.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many of the cards come from children. In fact, schools across the country have been sending in cards this year, which is really phenomenal from sea to shining sea.

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[07:18:30]

PAUL: New this morning, Taliban we are hearing this morning says the anticipated U.S. troop reduction in Afghanistan is, quote, a good step. Yesterday, a senior Trump official said the president is pulling 4,000 troops out of the region. That announcement could come as early next week.

BLACKWELL: Last hour, CNN military analyst and retired U.S. Air Force colonel, Cedric Leighton, reacted to that news. Listen.

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COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They want to take over Afghanistan. There's no question in my mind, Christi. They are interested not only in a complete withdrawal of U.S. forces, but they also want to do is they want to make sure that they can safeguard any future Taliban government of Afghanistan and there's no way they could have a completely Taliban government if there is a U.S. presence in that country. It's not realistic if we want to make sure that Afghanistan doesn't fall into the hands of the Taliban, but I'm not sure that's U.S. policy now.

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BLACKWELL: CNN senior international correspondent Sam Kiley is following the latest.

Sam, the Taliban says, yes, good start but we wanted all of you out. What are you seeing and hearing?

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is exactly the position of the Taliban. Also, Victor, they were slightly taken aback by suggestions from Donald Trump that they were soon to plan or offer some kind of cease-fire. Last time they were in deep talks, indeed, they were bound to invited, some Taliban elements to Washington to meet with the U.S. president when that was all cancelled due to the Taliban's killing of at least one U.S. soldier at the beginning of September.

[07:20:03]

They were very deeply involved but they still were not offering a cease-fire. I don't think we're going to satisfy a cease-fire then until even bigger U.S. withdrawal and it's hard to see from the Taliban perspective why this withdrawal appears to be without any pro quid pro on their part, would not be seen as American weakness.

But their balance is in trying to work out if there is a peace deal, the extent to which they want to be a political force rather than a military force in that country. It's not a foregone conclusion that they could take over the north of the country. There is a substantial heavily armed and well-trained presence in the north and in the government forces that would resist that.

But the danger is for the international community and for the Afghans, that the whole place could collapse back into civil war. In that context, they are continuing their meetings with Ambassador Khalilzad who was recently in Pakistani on Friday. A key player in the future of any potential peace or reconciliation between the Taliban and Afghan government who, Victor and Christi, have not been part of this latest talks nor, indeed, in the talks in the past.

So there is some distance off in terms of tangible steps towards a cease-fire, while the U.S. is weakening itself, no question about that in terms of its military numbers presence on the ground.

PAUL: All right. Sam Kiley, we appreciate the update. Thank you, sir.

BLACKWELL: A key newspaper's editorial board just joined other big newspapers in supporting the impeachment of President Trump. We will talk about the impact and the timing with CNN's Brian Stelter next.

PAUL: And pandemonium, that's how one witness is describing the scene yesterday, at a Georgia mall. Coming up, we are learning about a shooting there.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is running outside. They are advising the shooting happened downstairs.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just thanking God I'm still alive.

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[07:25:48]

BLACKWELL: Holiday shoppers were sent running for safety after someone started shooting in a crowded mall in Atlanta. Watch this.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody is running outside and they are advising the shooting is happening downstairs.

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PAUL: Yes. Police say the suspect fired several shots following an argument in the mall's food court. One witness describes what happened.

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ADRIAN MATTHEWS, SHOPPER: Candles, glass everywhere. Lotion on the floor. So, everybody in the store pretty much fled to the back rooms or bathrooms and body works piled up to be as safe as they could. There was a lady with her children. She was in pure panic, and she didn't know what was going on. There was an elderly woman on the floor, I don't think she can move that fast, so two other gentlemen were helping her, you know, take cover in the back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: One person was injured and taken to the hospital. Investigators say they have identified a suspect but they have made no arrests in the case.

This morning, "The New York Times" editorial board has come out in support of impeaching President Trump.

BLACKWELL: "The Times" joins a list of papers including "The Washington Post" and "USA Today" and "L.A. Times", "Boston Globe", just a few on the list.

I want to bring in now, CNN chief media correspondent, Brian Stelter.

Stelter, good morning to you.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning.

BLACKWELL: So, this is a big move by "The Times." What sort of impact could this have?

STELTER: I think these editorials have a little impact but not a lot of impact. You know, a reminder newsrooms and editorial boards are separate parts of these newspapers so "The New York Times" editorial board, opinion writers. They sit upstairs and only point of view from the journalists who sit downstairs.

But it is notable in the big papers across the country, all weigh in and reflect the views of their publisher and say it is time to vote for impeachment. We have seen this from Connecticut where the "Connecticut Post" newspaper actually called for Trump to step down to the west coast, to "San Diego Union Tribune" and the "L.A. Times".

But the truth is, although the editorials do matter and millions of people may read them, ultimately, it's the social media chaos and conversations happening on our phones that I think ultimately matter more when it comes to impeachment.

PAUL: In what way? What are you seeing on social media? What is out there you think is making the biggest impact?

STELTER: Well, this is certainly the first Internet impeachment, the impeachment of the modern Internet age when everybody is online all the time. We know from various studies and researchers that this is continuing to further polarized people and move them in different camps.

And "The Washington Post" has an excellent story on their website and their paper this weekend. They quote from what Isaac Stanley Becker wrote about the pro-Trump Internet, the pro-Trump Web. He said, social media once held out a promise that connect the world. But in a polarized climate, the firmness bones appeal to be forming among those who already share the same views, allowing partisans to choose not simply their own coverage but the community with which they process the news coverage.

He said, self-selected information nourishes identity, reducing politics to entertainment and blood sport.

Now just think about that and tell me if that sounds right and true to you. It certainly sounds true to me. When I look on Facebook and Twitter, and I see people chatting, discussing politics, arguing about it, it's very much a self-reinforcing environment. Perhaps the historians will look back and say one of the factors in this impeachment process that made it seem to be tired or exhausting in a way that past impeachments weren't.

PAUL: I'd love to now how people's relationships are based on this because I've heard so many people say I have blocked people that I thought were my friends that were, you know, we had a good relationship but the way that they go at me or that they go at some of my friends, I just can't allow it.

BLACKWELL: It certainly has ended some relationships.

Brian, let me talk about the show at 11:00, "RELIABLE SOURCES". What do you have?

STELTER: We have Jim Lehrer who's covered two impeachment in the past for PBS, and also Gretchen Carlson, the former Fox News anchor who famously sued Roger Ailes three years ago. She's coming out with a new organization trying to free people who are kept silent by nondisclosure agreements. So, she's coming up at 11:00.

PAUL: Good to know, Brian Stelter.

STELTER: Thanks.

PAUL: Have a good one. Thank you so much, sir.

STELTER: Thanks.

PAUL: Getting up early for us because you can watch Brian later at 11:00 a.m., right here on CNN.

BLACKWELL: President Trump took part in the Army/Navy game yesterday. He didn't play. But he was there. Obviously he didn't play. He was there in the locker room. He was on the field. He was on either side.

[07:00:05]

Coy Wire was there to see it all.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning. The Army/Navy game celebrates some of that which is best about our country and those who decided to commit themselves to our nation. But it was one side celebrating a whole bunch more than the other.

A lot of great moments from the Army/Navy game is coming up after the break.

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BLACKWELL: December 14th is a grim day for Newtown, Connecticut. It's the anniversary of the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre.

Yesterday, the town found a reason to celebrate.

PAUL: Seventh anniversary of the shooting, the Newtown high school football team won the state championship in fog as you can see. What a game that must have been. The last time they won a championship was in 1992.

We congratulate them. Look at them go.

BLACKWELL: President Trump hit the road yesterday, taking part in the annual tradition Army/Navy game. The second year in a row, the president attended the game.

You see in here, greeting players in the locker room. He went to both locker rooms. Let's just be clear about that. Also took part in the ceremonial coin toss at the 50-yard line.

PAUL: Our Coy Wire was there and he is live with us live from Philadelphia.

Quite a performance by Navy, Coy.

WIRE: Hey, good morning to you, Christi and Victor.

Imagine after three straight losses, Navy seniors just need to get a win against their bitter rivalries Army, when they finally taste victory. Navy, they were holding nothing back. They brought out a trick play before halftime.

Notice the Philly special here in Philly. Midshipmen lead 14-7 at the half. From there Malcolm Perry takes over, an economics major who was literally pulled out of the stands as a freshman and thrown into a game. Now finishes his career with over 300 yards on the day, breaking Navy's all-time single season rushing record in the process.

Navy wins 31-7. We caught up with some of the happy midshipmen just after the game.

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CHRIS PEARSON, NAVY NOSE GUARD: They have led us an we love them and we play for the love of our brothers and it shows.

MIKE MAUAI, NAVY RUNNING BACK: Malcolm Perry is very good at football.

MALCOLM PERRY, NAVY QUARTERBACK: Means so much to everybody in the locker room. Everybody fought their heart out and extremely grateful to come out with a win.

ERIC CAL, NAVY CENTER: Go Navy. Beat Army!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WIRE: Now, this win was extra special for senior Paul Carothers. When he was a freshman, his dad was shot and killed serving our nation as a U.S. marshal. The pain eventually strengthening Paul.

He was voted as team captain this season and I caught up with him and his sister after the win.

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PAUL CAROTHERS, NAVY LINEBACKER: We love you, padre! We love you. He knows that. He knows that.

Go Navy. Beat army!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go Navy! Beat Army, baby!

CAROTHERS: Yea! Come on! Come on!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WIRE: That is what it's all about. Let's stay here with college football. What a night it was for LSU's Joe Burrow. The quarterback winning the Heisman trophy in New York City. It capped off a meteoric rise to the top of the college football world.

He started his career as a backup at Ohio State. He graduated in three years. He transferred to LSU and wins the game's most coveted award by the greatest margin of victory ever and while working on his masters.

He was overcome with emotion thanking his head coach Ed Orgeron.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BURROW, 2019 HEISMAN TROPHY AWARD WINNER: You have no idea what you mean to my family. I didn't play for three years. You took a chance on me. Not knowing if I could play or not.

I'm forever in your -- forever grateful for you. I sure hope they give him a lifetime contract. He deserves it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WIRE: There you go from all of us here, congrats to Joe Burrow and the LSU Tigers and the Navy Midshipmen.

PAUL: Amen to that.

BLACKWELL: Indeed. Coy, thank you.

PAUL: Thanks, Coy.

Listen, shock and anger in Kentucky. How the family of a man killed by a drunk driver is responding to the former governor's recent pardons.

BLACKWELL: Plus, how you can buy gifts for your family and friends this holiday season and not break the bank. What our next guest says, just don't buy any gifts.

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[07:42:52]

BLACKWELL: The family of a man killed by a drunk driver, they are just outraged that he is just been pardoned by former Kentucky Governor Matt Bevin. Michael Andrew Hardy killed Jeremy Pryor in 2014 in that drunk driving accident but he served fewer than four of his 20 years he was sentenced to.

PAUL: He was pardoned on the condition that he stay sober and speak about his crime and his victim six times a year.

Here is what the attorney for the victim's family said about his release.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALAN SIMPSON, ATTORNEY FOR JEREMY PRYOR'S FAMILY: I have never seen a conditional pardon, nor have I spoken with anyone in the last couple of days who has ever heard of such a thing. It's just -- it's just -- it's so inexplicable. We are all wondering if, in fact, a pardon was legal and, if so, who is going to monitor Mr. Hardy to make sure that he is not drinking?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Now a friend of drunk driver says this is a positive step in his rehabilitation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY LEONARD, FRIED OF DREW HARDY: Because of the way that Drew wrote his letter saying that he did want to turn his life into something good after serving his prison time, that he did want to speak to schools about his experience and the depression that he went through and the medication that he was on that he doesn't want mental health to be stigmatized.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: We will keep you posted as we learn more about what is happening with all of those pardons.

Meanwhile, of course, it's Christmastime, holiday season, Hanukkah. We love our family. We love our friends.

But people, you know, a lot of people can't afford to buy gifts this year. It's just too much.

BLACKWELL: So, our next guest says you can manage your giving and maintain financial stability. You just have to stay focused and find a way to tell Uncle Pete he won't be getting the cigars he likes. Just tell him.

Joining us is personal finance columnist for "The Washington Post", Michelle Singletary.

Michelle, good morning.

MICHELLE SINGLETARY, PERSONAL FINANCE COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Good morning. Happy holidays to you both.

PAUL: To you as well.

BLACKWELL: To you as well.

PAUL: You as well.

So, talk to us about a smart way to give even if we have got debt we need to pay down.

[07:45:02]

SINGLETARY: So, listen -- here is my fast rule when it comes to this time of the year. If you have credit card debt you're not paying off every single month, then you can't buy anybody anything!

BLACKWELL: That's not real, Michelle!

PAUL: That is not going to happen!

SINGLETARY: Oh, come on now. It is -- you know, come on now. Yes. Real love is free, right?

PAUL: Real love it free? Try to tell that to Uncle Pete!

SINGLETARY: Well, Uncle Pete already have enough stuff any way!

Listen, I get it. This is the joy of the season of giving and receiving, but I'm really worried about a lot of people have a lot of debt. I wrote a column about a couple that had $62,000 in credit card debt and was worried about what to tell their family when they couldn't give them gifts. Tell them you got $62,000 in debt.

PAUL: But, listen, let's be realistic here. It can be hard for people to confide in someone whether a friend or a family member that they aren't comfortable giving gifts because they are not able to do so this year. How does that conversation go?

SINGLETARY: Well, you don't have to give them all of the details. You don't have to tell them you're in that much debt. You say the gift we want to give you is our financial peace because if we are not in debt then you don't have to bail us out. Getting out of debt and not overspending is actually a gift to your family and your friends.

And, listen, I get that it's hard. And people looking at you like, where is my present? But I'm going to tell you something, when it comes time to pay that bill or pay your mortgage or send your kid to college, they are not going to be giving you any money.

And so, you need to have that in the back of your head. That's like when things are rough, not everybody will fly in to help you and really mean this, you've got to be able to have financial peace and leave your financial truth.

If you can't afford to buy things, just tell people that. And you'll be surprised that you will relieve people of that because we get on to this merry go round of gift giving and everybody is like, I can't do this. If you stop, you be surprised how many people say thank you, I'm so glad you said that!

BLACKWELL: I am trying. I think I'm the opposite. I love giving gifts. I think I'm pretty good at it. I don't want another thing -- I don't want another thing. It's probably going to be something -- you know, a tie, you know? I don't want anything else.

How do you get into -- how do you get into a no gifting at all footing and then not press people over it, but make sure they understand and believe you? What do you do?

SINGLETARY: Right. Well, you know, I literally just write a column about this. You go to TheWashingtonPost.com, I have a column about no-gift Christmas and holidays and how do you do it?

First of all, say it and mean it, I don't want any gifts and actually mean it, because sometimes we said we don't want a gift, well, if you want to give to charity or buy a toy for somebody else, you want to do this, don't give any excuses. Believe people when they say that. And then if you people tell you not to give a gift, don't show up at a party with a gift because everybody else feels guilty.

We really have to be honest about it. If you want a gift, don't say you don't want it and if you say that, have people who say that you should believe them and then when we all do that, we will get off of this train.

BLACKWELL: Right. SINGLETARY: Now, listen, I'm not talking about not giving people anything. I'm not a gift giver. That is not my love language but I know people like you who love giving gifts, but we are getting to the point where we will have a recession and when it comes, you're not going to want to have all of that debt.

And, honestly, let's be real. Most of us, I'm not talking about people who live in poverty but most of us already have everything we need. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we had a holiday where we just sat around and talked to each other and not running from store-to-store, but just loving on each other.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

SINGLETARY: And what the holiday is about.

PAUL: The gift of experience. We have put into practice the last five years.

BLACKWELL: We have to wrap it up, Michelle. But, you know, one of the things that she points out is, do not reward the person would breaks the no gifting pact by opening their gift in front of everyone and lavishing praise on them. Take that gift, open it somewhere else because then you reward the activity of giving a gift when everyone agreed I wouldn't give one.

SINGLETARY: Right. Give them a little look you know you shouldn't have done that!

BLACKWELL: You shouldn't have bought this gift.

SINGLETARY: Right. Don't let anybody feel guilty.

BLACKWELL: Good to have you as always.

PAUL: Merry Christmas.

SINGLETARY: Merry Christmas.

PAUL: Happy New Year. Happy Hanukkah --

SINGLETARY: Don't buy a gift if you have debt!

BLACKWELL: Thank you.

PAUL: Coming up, human kindness. Don't we need a lot of that? See how one grandmother's efforts is making sure U.S. troops overseas have one very merry Christmas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:53:43]

PAUL: So, grandmother in Hampshire has turned a small family tradition into a worldwide effort. Look at this. Don't you love getting things like this from the kids? Well, she is sending these, thousands of holiday cards to U.S. troops.

Here's what she said to me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA LANDERMAN-GARBER, FOUNDER, HOLIDAY CARDS FOR OUR MILITARY CHALLENGE: My family did this for 14 years and then two years ago, a friend of the family was deployed and we thought we would send him a card. It was an aircraft carrier. And there are a lot of people on an aircraft carrier.

So I put out calls and a Facebook page. In fact, a boys scout made a Facebook page. And from there, it just blew up, so to speak. Seventeen thousand cards in 2017 and 50,000 last year, and then this year, I have over 160,000 cards right there in my house.

So many of the cards come from children. In fact, schools across the country have been sending in cards this year, which is phenomenal from sea to shining sea. And some of them are funny, dear warrior, I have a fish named Fred, the end. That's very endearing.

And then there was one that said, dear warrior, my best friend is Victoria and she's in love with you but don't tell anybody. And I just love the idea of a warrior getting that card and talking about it with his brothers and sisters in uniform.

[07:55:03]

But some are really profound. There's one that said, dear warrior, you have awakened in me a sense of patriotism and I'm proud to be an American.

Another one said -- and I just love this one. This one said dear warrior, I can play outside with my friends because you're brave, I can eat dinner with my family because you're courageous and I can sleep safely in my bed at night because you're my hero.

It takes a village and at first my husband and children boxed them up and over the last couple of years, I've asked friends and family and neighbors and teachers in the community and they've all pitched in. I've started a nonprofit and so some corporate sponsors have jumped on board. That's hard for me to do. I'm that grandmother who just doesn't like to ask for help that way.

But I've learned that lesson. That's a good lesson for me to learn, because everybody likes to pitch in and kindness of others.

This year in particular, I've gotten some videos of troops handing out the cards and some pictures, some are remote locations, I don't know where they are. Others I've gotten from Qatar, Afghanistan, Iraq. It's been phenomenal.

And I think there were six aircraft carriers this year. So, they sent mellow messages. A chaplain wrote to me and said that he handed out the cards and it really lifted the spirits because these young men and women are far away from their homes. (END VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL: She received cards from 32 U.S. states, as well as Canada, Guam, and even some of the presidential candidates.

And to all of you who served and to the families who are home at the holiday without them, we thank you for your service and we think of you.

BLACKWELL: Absolutely.

PAUL: Go make good memories.

BLACKWELL: "INSIDE POLITICS WITH JOHN KING" is up next.