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Cuomo Prime Time
Top Evangelical Magazine Calls For Trump's Removal; Trump Slams Evangelical Magazine Calling For His Removal; Following The Money From Oligarch With Russian Ties To Giuliani's Indicted Associate Lev Parnas. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired December 20, 2019 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: CEO of Pebble Mine, Tom Collier, met with us personally to stress two things.
First that he and his company had no advanced knowledge of any decisions made by the EPA, and second, that in his view, it is fairly normal to have communications with the Governor, even to the point of writing draft letters for the Governor to edit and sign.
John?
JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Common, is that so? Drew Griffin, thank you very much for that.
The news continues. So, we'll hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, thank you, J.B. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
We have an exclusive tonight, new Intelligence on that arrested Giuliani associate tied to an oligarch who is tied to Putin. There is a troubling money trail revealed.
And, another question. Is Pelosi right to hold back these articles of impeachment or is it going to backfire on the Democrats?
Ho, ho, ho! Hold on, it isn't the Holy Days yet. Let's get after it.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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CUOMO: All right. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Trump isn't Teflon after all. One of the country's top Evangelical magazines, Christianity Today, founded by the late Reverend Billy Graham, is now taking the highly unusual step to call for the President's removal.
Here's one part. The Editor in Chief writes, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence. It will crash down on the reputation of Evangelical religion. And it will come crashing down on a nation.
There is a group of conservatives who would give a big Amen to that. They've just formalized the movement by forming a Super PAC to thwart the President's reelection.
Rick Wilson helped launch the new Lincoln Project. He's a longtime Republican political strategist who served on Bush 41's Presidential campaign, also advised Rudy Giuliani.
Welcome to PRIME TIME.
RICK WILSON, FORMER GOP STRATEGIST: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Now, let's talk about what matters. You look a little beat up. I don't want people to think it was the Trump supporters. Give people the public service announcement. What did you learn?
WILSON: Get checked for skin cancer folks because when they get it early it's entirely treatable.
CUOMO: Good. So, thank God you got checked. You're doing the right thing.
WILSON: Yes.
CUOMO: I wish you well going forward and the best to your family--
WILSON: Thanks, Sir.
CUOMO: --for the Holy Days and a Merry Christmas.
WILSON: And to yours.
CUOMO: All right, now, you got no case, Rick. There are some of you who don't like this President. But Evangelicals, he'll get three- quarters of their vote. They want the judges. They don't have to explain why.
WILSON: Sure.
CUOMO: We're going to have a representative of that community, next, to make the case. But there just are not enough of you. You and I have never seen a Republican President--
WILSON: No.
CUOMO: --as popular in Party as this.
WILSON: Well partly because, Chris, the Party has shrunk a good bit. But the folks that are still with him are still with him hard. And the fact of the matter is, you know, Evangelicals were a significant part of Donald Trump's support in the 2016 election.
They have been very happy with the -- with the -- the -- the worldly outcomes that he has provided them because they feel very aggrieved by a lot of the things in society, and they felt like they had to make a deal with the devil, in order to accomplish things that they wanted, in terms of -- of selecting judges that would -- that would rule as they chose, and selecting, you know, a President who would be very, you know, aligned with them and some of their policy outcomes that they wanted.
CUOMO: So, the President's basic argument to you is All right, you don't like how I talk. You don't like how I am. But you guys are part of a dirty world, and you needed to be roughed up.
And that's why people from your Party, who feel disaffected and forgotten, put me in there, and I'm doing exactly what I said I would. Enough with your style points and your insider games, this is the new Party. That's why you just saw what happened in impeachment. Lockstep baby!
WILSON: Well, you know, Chris, one of the things about Donald Trump is that he has appealed to a certain segment of the -- of the Republican demo that has found itself falling in love with statism, and a sort of mild authoritarianism, maybe not so mild in the future that -- that Donald Trump represents.
He does not represent what the traditional conservative values in this country were, which are things like limited government, and the rule of law, and personal dignity, and responsibility, and honesty, and integrity. He's the opposite of almost all of those things in many, many meaningful ways.
And look, I'm not denying the power Trump has over the Republican base. But as a conservative, there are still folks out there in the world who are going to call BS on a lot of it because a lot of it is not, you know, fundamentally conservative in any way.
And some of the policy outcomes that he thinks he's going to achieve in terms of Executive orders, those things are -- are ephemeral. Those things can be reversed in a hot second.
Also, at some point, when there's a Democratic President again, they're going to say, Well look, Trump took all these Executive actions, Trump took all these things outside the bounds that we normally used to think of the Presidency containing, and so I feel free to do that as well.
I think it's a cycle that does not end well for this country.
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CUOMO: So, you have significant disagreements with the President, but the question that becomes well what's the point of the Super PAC. If you beat him, you get a Democrat. You are not a Democrat. You are a conservative. Theoretically, you should have bigger problems with them than you do with him.
WILSON: The problem is, Chris, that Donald Trump is a fatal and -- and consequential moment, I think, not just for the Party, but for the Republic. Right now, we are seeing the rule of law in this country burned to the ground by this White House and this President. This is not good for the nation, no matter how you slice it, no matter what your ideological preferences are.
And the fact of the matter is Donald Trump, I believe, represents a much greater threat to this country's future than the temporary inconvenience of somebody with whom I have some ideological differences.
And that's the -- the feeling that an awful lot of us involved in this movement have is that Donald Trump's behavior, every day, proves to us he does not believe he is constrained by the rule of law, those fundamental aspect of conservative governance.
And that is a threat to this country where -- where, you know, the imaginary scary socialist in the Democratic Party, they often end up being -- you know, if -- if Barack Obama was this socialist mastermind, he was terrible at the job. He basically turned out to be a centrist sort of technocratic Democrat.
CUOMO: Right. That's where the Democrats have wound up lately.
WILSON: And, you know, we're not as worried about that as we are about Trump destroying the rule of law and the -- and the -- and the institutions and norms.
CUOMO: All right, you still have the problem that your elected leadership disagrees with you. And there's another man who disagrees with you--
WILSON: Sure.
CUOMO: --whom we both know, and respect, even though he seems to really not like me right now, Rudy Giuliani. Rudy Giuliani has a nose for BS. We both knew him, me, growing up most of my adult life, as a guy who hated corruption.
WILSON: Yes.
CUOMO: Hated the stigma of the Mafia on Italian-Americans. And he is all about Trump being a victim of misplaced jurisprudence. How do you explain his conversion?
WILSON: You know, that is one of these mysteries that someday we're going to un -- we're going to tease that ball of yarn out one day and figure out what it is.
But the Rudy Giuliani that is engaged in the things that he's doing right now in Ukraine and with the -- the variety of Russian oligarchs and Russian-connected oligarchs, and these guys like Parnas and Fruman, and all these other characters over there, those were the guys Rudy would have been putting in jail 30 years ago, as opposed to cavorting with right now.
I believe it has something to do with the fact that Donald Trump corrupts everyone who -- who is in his orbit, at some point, and -- and that Rudy has now, you know, decided his last Swan Song is not going to be remembered as the man who turned New York City around in the 90s, or the guy who stood there and unified the country on 9/11, but as, you know, Rudy's -- Rudy's errand boy to the Russian oligarchs who are trying to retake Ukraine for Vladimir Putin.
CUOMO: Well he's definitely all-in. Let me get your take on something though before I -- I let you go. And I appreciate you being with me.
WILSON: Sure.
CUOMO: Especially on a Friday night.
Why Trump? That's I -- you know, I have -- I'm blessed. I got people all across the political spectrum who were close to me and I talk to all the time. We were all dead-wrong--
WILSON: Sure.
CUOMO: --about this man's celebrity, about his draw, about his ability to identify a group that he really shares nothing in common with.
Why has he been able to marshal the strength of the disaffected former parts of the Democratic working-class base and have them so strongly adhere and forgive behavior that was a death sentence for any other Republican or Democrat?
WILSON: I think it's a combination of three major factors, Chris.
The first factor was that Hillary Clinton was this built-in character that for 30 years my Party had demonized in ways that -- that almost never existed in any other political space.
The second was that an awful lot of people believed in the television character they saw in the reality TV show for 15 years of Donald Trump as a competent leader and a manager and a smart guy and a -- and a -- and a considered thinker and a negotiator. They believed what they saw on television.
The third major factor is that the other network has a very strong normative behavioral molding factor in -- in that demographic of people that went out and supported Trump.
They believe what they see on that Network. That Network put itself all-in for Trump and all-in for this -- for the -- this sort of nationalist populism that -- that Bannon and Trump engineered.
And so, those three factors sort of come together, and that's a really short-handed way of describing it.
But those three factors built this illusion of who Donald Trump was on the -- in the campaign trail. And it's been a very -- there's been a very wide differential between that -- that image that we saw and the actual governance of the -- of this President.
CUOMO: Well there is a belief in him that very much is akin to faith. And that's why this whole religious point of consternation and pivot--
WILSON: Yes.
CUOMO: --is so interesting. Rick, heal quickly, God bless, thank you for being on the show with me tonight.
WILSON: Thank you, Sir.
CUOMO: I'll speak to you soon. And best for Christmas.
WILSON: Merry Christmas.
CUOMO: Look, this is interesting, having this Christian magazine come out and say these things about the President. One, even the Christian conservatives in the eva -- Evangelical movement usually stay out of politics. That's changed. So, let's test the other side.
A Christian conservative says, No, you got it wrong. The President is the choice for followers of Christ. Why? Let's have the discussion, next.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: President, getting criticized, doesn't like it, we know what he does, lashes out several times today at the Christian publication that said his immorality is too much for them.
The President insists -- actually, they insist that no President has ever done -- oh no, no, no, this is the President, in defense of himself, he says, No President has ever done what I have done for Evangelicals, or for religion itself!
What does that mean? And why do the people who used to say character is what counts in politics, why do they back this President? Evangelical talk-show host, Eric Metaxas is here.
Before we get started, the best for Christmas, best for the Holy Days for you and your family.
ERIC METAXAS, CONSERVATIVE EVANGELICAL TALK-SHOW HOST: I'm not a Jew, but thank you. Merry Christmas.
CUOMO: Merry Christmas. METAXAS: I -- no, I -- I got to tell you, we're New Yorkers. So, we're -- we're culturally Jewish, right? You were born in Queens, grew up in Queens. But, right now, we're talking about Evangelical Christians. So, what's your question, Chris?
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CUOMO: I think that if we went down the list of things, we don't play games on this show, but however -- if I said, would you say this about someone who just passed away? Would you say this about him?
METAXAS: Yes, yes.
CUOMO: And you'd say No. I'm not saying that.
METAXAS: Correct.
CUOMO: I don't want to call him any (ph) of the words.
METAXAS: Correct.
CUOMO: But you back somebody--
METAXAS: Yes.
CUOMO: --as a person of faith--
METAXAS: Right.
CUOMO: --who says all of them.
METAXAS: Yes.
CUOMO: How?
METAXAS: Well it's like my pilot has tattoos, and he's on his fourth wife, but he's an amazing pilot. I would prefer a pilot who has been married for 30 years to the same woman. Sometimes things are complicated. And I think that in this day and age we've had such a dramatic choice.
I mean, look, the day Hillary Clinton was chosen as the -- the standard-bearer for the Party, and Trump was chosen, most people had a tough choice.
It was not, you know, it was -- it was not Ronald Reagan, and whoever, Mondale, or whatever. It was a -- it was a -- it was a tough choice for everybody. So, you had to think hard about what matters.
And -- and I think that given the track record of Hillary Clinton, a lot of people, like myself, were scared to death at the thought of a Clinton Presidency for -- for many, many years.
CUOMO: Why?
METAXAS: I think something happened to the Democratic Party over the last 30 years. It's not the Party that we grew up with. It's not the Party that it was in FDR's day.
It has gone so far left that in a way if you want somebody who, let's say, respects the Constitution, is going to appoint originalist judges, not conservative judges, originalist judges, who are going to call balls and strikes, at that point, your only hope is to have a President with the GOP.
CUOMO: It's--
METAXAS: Now, that's a serious issue.
CUOMO: It's absolutely a serious issue. And that would be the criticism is you guys are just like every other political -- political faction now.
METAXAS: Yes.
CUOMO: You want what you wanted.
METAXAS: Yes.
CUOMO: You're no better than anybody else.
METAXAS: Whoever said--
CUOMO: You wanted conserve--
METAXAS: --anybody was better than anybody.
CUOMO: Because--
METAXAS: The first thing about being a Christian--
CUOMO: Wait, hold on a second.
METAXAS: --is you know you're a sinner.
CUOMO: So--
METAXAS: And you're not better than anybody else. So, no, no, no, no.
CUOMO: Well but that's not the way you guys played it.
METAXAS: That's the way--
CUOMO: You played it Character counts.
METAXAS: No.
CUOMO: When -- when--
METAXAS: OK.
CUOMO: When Bill Clinton was impeached--
METAXAS: Right, right, right, right. CUOMO: --you all wrote letters like Mike Pence saying--
METAXAS: Yes.
CUOMO: --Forget about crimes.
METAXAS: Right.
CUOMO: This is about cleansing the house.
METAXAS: Right.
CUOMO: This is about morality.
METAXAS: Correct.
CUOMO: His behavior.
METAXAS: Correct.
CUOMO: This President passed none of those tests.
METAXAS: Correct.
CUOMO: And you know it. So, if those tests don't matter anymore, it's just getting your judges, and getting the political positions.
METAXAS: No, no, no, no, no.
CUOMO: So you might as well be like--
METAXAS: No, no, no, if you -- if--
CUOMO: --you know, the deejays of America.
METAXAS: --if you make it--
CUOMO: They have their own wants.
METAXAS: If you make it that transactional, I -- I think, fundamentally, you're -- you're making a mistake. Anytime anyone votes for anyone, there are aspects to it that -- that are like that.
When we're honest, you know, we -- we mostly vote self-interest. But somebody who really cares about America doesn't just vote self- interest. He votes for what's good for America.
And so, when you care about religious liberty, you can say, I care about myself, I care about my religious liberty, or you can say, No. I care about the concept of religious liberty. And I care about everyone's religious liberty.
And in a country that no longer prizes religious liberty, you begin to lose all your liberties. So--
CUOMO: Why do we not prize religious liberty unless you define that as your ability to exclude other people because you don't like them?
METAXAS: OK. Now, that's sophistry, and that's sloppy.
CUOMO: It is not sophistry.
METAXAS: That, Chris--
CUOMO: I'm making exactly an analogy--
METAXAS: --you're too smart.
CUOMO: --to the laws that Mike Pence went after, which was religion--
METAXAS: No, no. The idea of--
CUOMO: Hold on a second. Religious liberty meant I'm a Christian. I don't want to bake your cake. I don't want to look at you.
METAXAS: OK.
CUOMO: I don't want to sell to you.
METAXAS: I'm a Jew.
CUOMO: Be -- be careful.
METAXAS: And somebody comes in, and says, Bake my swastika cake. Hey Jew, bake the swastika cake. Now, will the American government force the Jew to bake the swastika cake? Will -- will the government force the Jew to bake that cake?
We all know the government will say You know what?--
CUOMO: So, you think gay people are--
METAXAS: We should have the right to get any cake you--
CUOMO: --the same as Nazis?
METAXAS: Oh now, OK, are you going to go there?
CUOMO: Yes, of course.
METAXAS: That--
CUOMO: It was a terrible example.
METAXAS: No, no, no, that--
CUOMO: It was a terrible example.
METAXAS: No. The example is--
CUOMO: Nazis, gay people.
METAXAS: --when something-- CUOMO: Nazis--
METAXAS: Chris? OK.
CUOMO: --gay people. One is a pernicious death to your existence.
METAXAS: Listen, listen, you--
CUOMO: The other one is not a pernicious threat.
METAXAS: --if you just want to win an argument, you can keep going there. But I'm telling you that that -- that's absolutely ridiculous. The point is--
CUOMO: You brought it up.
METAXAS: --if somebody--
CUOMO: To be honest.
METAXAS: All right--
CUOMO: Go ahead.
METAXAS: --let's take a better example. Take a better example.
CUOMO: Yes. How about that?
METAXAS: Yes but the point is that--
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METAXAS: --it's -- it -- it doesn't -- it doesn't -- it doesn't matter. If you -- if you think of it this way--
CUOMO: Yes.
METAXAS: --in America, when somebody comes and asks you to do something--
CUOMO: Right.
METAXAS: --that violates your conscience, OK, the reason I used the swastika and the Jew is because everybody would say like that would violate a conscience.
So, we don't really care that the baker says, I'm here for everybody. We would say to him if somebody brings in something offensive to you, you have the right in America to say, I'm sorry you. Go to the next Baker. But in America--
CUOMO: Where does that end? What if it's Black people? What if it's Greek people? What if it's Italian people?
METAXAS: We've been through this.
CUOMO: Yes.
METAXAS: In the Civil Rights Act--
CUOMO: Right.
METAXAS: --we said that you can't say to somebody Because of the color of your skin, I'm not going to serve you a hamburger.
CUOMO: That's right. Or your creed--
METAXAS: Right?
CUOMO: --or your orientation.
METAXAS: But the point is that if somebody comes into, let's say, to a Muslim, OK, a Muslim Baker, and says, I want you to bake a cake, you know, celebrating a Zionist organization, we would say, in America, the government should not force the Muslim Baker to bake a cake celebrating Zionism.
CUOMO: Let me -- let me make it easy for you.
METAXAS: That's because of American principles--
CUOMO: Let me make it easy for you.
METAXAS: --called religious liberty and liberty in general.
[21:20:00]
CUOMO: Let me make it easy for you. I give you the point, OK?
It's not about your rights. It's about what is right and raw-- wrong, and that is a different set of criteria that people of faith ascribe to. It's not about what the law insists on, what the law empowers.
METAXAS: Correct, correct.
CUOMO: You have a different set of standards.
METAXAS: Correct.
CUOMO: And I don't think this President and, honestly, I don't think you think this President--
METAXAS: Right.
CUOMO: --checks any of the boxes--
METAXAS: You think Catholics--
CUOMO: --that matter to you and an individual.
METAXAS: Do you think Catholics who believe abortion is wrong, is a -- is a horrible sin--
CUOMO: That is the teaching of the Church.
METAXAS: Right. Do you think that -- that Catholics could ever vote for a pro-abortion candidate, would they be violating their faith?
CUOMO: I say no.
METAXAS: You say no, why?
CUOMO: Because they live in a secular society. And the law respects the choice of people to have reproductive rights.
METAXAS: But -- but -- OK, you just called it reproductive rights--
CUOMO: So, that is your society.
METAXAS: --which is also sophistry.
CUOMO: Yes.
METAXAS: We're talking about taking--
CUOMO: Well it's not sophistry because in -- to be true--
METAXAS: --a human life in the womb.
CUOMO: Eric, to be accurate, you are anti-choice. You think people should not have a choice--
METAXAS: No, no, no, no, no.
CUOMO: --of what to do with their body.
METAXAS: I'm anti--
CUOMO: How's that wrong?
METAXAS: --murdering the unborn. The unborn in America are now a marginalized group. And we legally say -- we say it's legal now--
CUOMO: As soon as they are identified as people?
METAXAS: --to kill them.
CUOMO: As soon as that line--
METAXAS: Eight months--
CUOMO: Now, if you really want to make the find--
METAXAS: Eight months along.
CUOMO: No, not eight months along.
METAXAS: Eight months along.
CUOMO: Nowhere-- METAXAS: By the way, you're -- you happen to be related to somebody--
CUOMO: Nowhere--
METAXAS: --who took a stand on this about a year ago.
CUOMO: Nowhere it's law.
METAXAS: Eight months along--
CUOMO: All New York State did was codify Roe v. Wade. That's sophistry. That is taking a point and twisting it to upset people of faith. Why do that?
METAXAS: Because it's true
CUOMO: But it's wrong. I just told you, it's wrong.
METAXAS: It's not wrong. Yes, all over Europe--
CUOMO: I'll bet you dinner anywhere you want--
METAXAS: All--
CUOMO: No, no, forget about Europe. I'll bet you anything you want, anywhere you want that--
METAXAS: All over Europe, they have laws that say--
CUOMO: --all New York did was codify Roe v. Wade. Why lie about it?
METAXAS: --after 12 weeks in the womb, we're not going to kill that because we believe it's a human being. In America--
CUOMO: Then -- then do the research.
METAXAS: --when we say 20 weeks or 24 weeks, people freak out, and they say, No, no, no, no, no, we want to be able to take the life of a child.
CUOMO: You have a viability test. We went through this. Here's what your argument--
METAXAS: Did we go through this? Who went through this?
CUOMO: Well that's Roe v. Wade. What you should do is--
METAXAS: What you -- you and I--
CUOMO: This is what people of faith should do. Instead of weaponizing and distorting the truth, here's what you should push for.
METAXAS: Tell me.
CUOMO: We need to have more scientific research about when life begins. There's too much of a range. Different religions feel different ways about it, have their own equations. Why don't we have people decide--
METAXAS: You -- you don't think--
CUOMO: --what the standard should be?
METAXAS: --a five-month-old fetus--
CUOMO: I'm not a scientist.
METAXAS: You know, that--
CUOMO: I know what the law is.
METAXAS: But that is like when Obama said, You know, that's beyond my paygrade. Most people call it a baby. I get an ultrasound.
CUOMO: Here's -- here's what I'm saying.
METAXAS: My wife and I go to get an ultrasound, we see the baby, four months along, and we go, That's our baby.
CUOMO: You have a choice of--
METAXAS: That's our daughter.
CUOMO: --a lot of candidates who believe what you believe in when it comes to reproductive rights.
METAXAS: Right.
CUOMO: Why get behind a man who makes a mockery of your faith?
METAXAS: I certainly don't think -- most people that I know do not think he makes a mockery of our faith.
CUOMO: Does he practice--
METAXAS: It's only people--
CUOMO: --any of the things that you think are important--
METAXAS: But when--
CUOMO: --for an individual.
METAXAS: Here's what I find interesting, Chris.
CUOMO: Hold on. No, no.
METAXAS: Most people who are not--
CUOMO: Eric, answer my question.
METAXAS: --Evangelicals, like you, talk about--
CUOMO: I'm not an Evangelical. METAXAS: --my faith.
CUOMO: Yes.
METAXAS: Well let's talk about your faith.
CUOMO: Yes.
METAXAS: You're -- you're a Catholic.
CUOMO: Yes.
METAXAS: Does he make a mockery of the Catholic faith?
CUOMO: If he's said you were Catholic, yes, he does.
METAXAS: OK. There's--
CUOMO: He does not practice humanity.
METAXAS: --there's somebody--
CUOMO: He does not practice decency.
METAXAS: OK.
CUOMO: He does not love mercy.
METAXAS: If--
CUOMO: He is intentionally unkind. He is mean to opponents.
METAXAS: If -- if--
CUOMO: He puts himself before the collective.
METAXAS: If--
CUOMO: And he doesn't honor his oath.
METAXAS: OK.
CUOMO: These all matter to us, don't they?
METAXAS: Yes, but I disagree with that. We -- we were talking about Mark. We never got to Mark Galli's editorial in Christianity Today.
CUOMO: OK.
METAXAS: That's why we're here, right, because he wrote an article.
CUOMO: No. I wanted you here because I don't understand how people who believe what you believe--
METAXAS: Yes.
CUOMO: --get behind somebody who does not.
METAXAS: Well--
CUOMO: Unless you're just going to say it's transactional.
METAXAS: When -- wait a minute. When in the world have Evangelicals ever supported someone because -- just because he ticks off the faith boxes when you don't--
CUOMO: When you used to say character counts.
METAXAS: Well wait, wait, wait, wait.
CUOMO: You need a person who's moral, who's ethical first.
METAXAS: So, you're saying only an Evangelical Christian has character?
CUOMO: No. I'm saying that you guys used to put--
METAXAS: Well then why would Evangelical Christians--
CUOMO: --it at a premium.
METAXAS: Why would Evangelical Christians need to count character with regard to our own faith? Character is something that--
CUOMO: Because that's what you're--
METAXAS: --touches about a faith.
CUOMO: That's what you're about. Your faith is about character and adherence to Christ's message and life.
METAXAS: So I--
CUOMO: You're not mechanics.
METAXAS: --so I wouldn't vote for a Jew? I wouldn't vote for a Jew?
CUOMO: Why can't you?
METAXAS: I'm -- you're the one who's saying that--
CUOMO: If they tell the truth--
METAXAS: --I wouldn't vote for a Jew?
CUOMO: --if they -- if they practice love, if they practice mercy.
METAXAS: You're telling me what I'm telling you. Of course, I would vote--
CUOMO: But he doesn't practice those things.
METAXAS: Look-- CUOMO: That's why I'm asking you.
METAXAS: --according to you?
CUOMO: No. According to anybody, you tell me he does.
METAXAS: Do you know anybody -- do you know any--
CUOMO: Does he practice mercy? Does he practice love?
METAXAS: Do you know anybody who has sex outside of marriage?
CUOMO: Yes, let's say I -- everybody does.
METAXAS: Right.
CUOMO: Let's say everybody does.
METAXAS: OK. According to Christian Catholic Evangelical teaching--
CUOMO: You're not supposed to.
METAXAS: You're not supposed to, OK?
CUOMO: Right.
METAXAS: So--
CUOMO: That's the least of his problems.
METAXAS: --do we say that those people are grossly immoral?
CUOMO: You guys, yes, usually, yes. You used to. That used to be enough.
METAXAS: But the -- but the Catholic Church doesn't say that.
CUOMO: Yes, them too.
METAXAS: OK.
CUOMO: But if I had a Catholic organization, in front of me, saying, No, we're back behind Trump, no matter what, and I've had that guy on before, I have the same argument.
But listen, I got to jump. I want to wish you the best for Christmas.
METAXAS: God bless you. Merry Christmas.
[21:25:00]
CUOMO: And I appreciate you making the case here.
METAXAS: I appreciate you.
CUOMO: You're always welcome here to make the case. METAXAS: Thank you. Thank you.
CUOMO: Best to you.
METAXAS: All right.
CUOMO: All right, Eric Metaxas, Greek, Italian, but we can disagree with decency, and that's what we do on the show, it's important, especially at the holidays.
All right, new info on a critical aspect of the Ukraine plot. This isn't about feel. It's about fact. What do these flight logs mean? Why do they matter? Are there clues in them? Where do they take us? Next.
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CUOMO: All right, as promised, we have new developments on the money movements of indicted Giuliani-associate, Lev Parnas. Remember that loan that he got from an oligarch tied to Putin?
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We have details from CNN's Senior Investigative Correspondent, Drew Griffin.
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GRIFFIN (voice-over): Lev Parnas, the Rudy Giuliani associate, indicted in an election financing case, and facing new questions about his work on behalf of President Trump, in Ukraine, now may have a $1 million link to a Ukrainian billionaire allegedly tied to Russian organized crime.
According to the U.S. government, a lawyer for Ukrainian oligarch, Dmytro Firtash, loaned $1 million to Parnas' wife in September, in a transaction an Assistant U.S. Attorney described as suspicious. That lawyer told Reuters the money was his and had nothing to do with Firtash.
Prosecutors argued it raises the possibility Parnas is a flight risk. The judge denied the motion to revoke bail, and allowed Parnas to stay in his Florida home, while he awaits trial.
LEV PARNAS, RUDY GIULIANI'S ASSOCIATE: I want to thank God. I want to thank my wonderful wife, and mother, all the supporters out there that have been sending me all the well wishes.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): But the million-dollar loan is just another link in this bizarre case that connects President Trump's private attorney to two Soviet-born shady businessmen in Florida, who themselves donated hundreds of thousands of dollars in alleged illegal campaign contributions to Republicans, and are now also connected to Firtash.
It's who Firtash is linked to that makes this even more troubling. Dmytro Firtash made a fortune selling Russian gas to Ukraine with bankers, close to Vladimir Putin, granting Firtash credit lines of up to $11 billion, according to Reuters.
GRIFFIN: He was given this sweetheart deal.
KENNETH MCCALLION, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. That was the primary cash cow. It was this intermediary company between Gazprom, the Russian company, and Naftogaz, the Ukrainian natural gas company.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Firtash has acknowledged ties to a Russian organized crime figure in 2008, according to a State Department cable posted by WikiLeaks. And, in a court filing, the Department of Justice said Firtash was one of the upper echelon associates of Russian organized crime.
Earlier this year, even Rudy Giuliani mentioned Firtash's alleged Russian criminal ties.
RUDY GIULIANI, PERSONAL LAWYER TO DONALD TRUMP: He is considered to be one of the close associates of another guy named Mogilevich, who's the Head of Russian organized crime, who was Putin's best friend.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Firtash has another big problem though, the U.S. indictment filed six years ago, charging him in an international bribery scheme. Shortly after it was filed, he told the BBC he didn't do it.
DMYTRO FIRTASH, UKRAINIAN OLIGARCH (through translator): I am absolutely innocent. I did not pay any bribes and did not set up any organized criminal group. I don't understand why all this has happened to me.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): But Firtash has been stuck in Austria, fighting extradition to the U.S. ever since, and trying to convince the U.S. Department of Justice to drop the case.
According to The New York Times, this summer, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman apparently traveled to Austria, and convinced Firtash they had close ties to the Trump Administration, were working with Rudy Giuliani, and offered a deal, If the oligarch helped dig up dirt in Ukraine, they would help with his extradition.
Prosecutors say Firtash even paid Parnas another $200,000 to work as a translator in his legal case. Rudy Giuliani was being paid too, $500,000, from Parnas' company, supposedly for work on a business venture.
Elie Honig, a former federal prosecutor says the money, the timing, the players, all too coincidental to ignore.
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: As often happens, the money tells a story.
And you have a million dollars going from -- from Firtash to Parnas, for reasons that I think are, at best, difficult to understand, and you have half a million going from Parnas to Rudy, for reasons that I also think are really difficult to justify.
And then, on top of that, you have Rudy doing legal work, an investigative work, for Donald Trump for free for pro bono.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Sources tell CNN, Parnas bragged Dmytro Firtash had bankrolled his lavish lifestyle of private planes and bodyguards, calling himself The best paid interpreter in the world.
Drew Griffin, CNN, Atlanta.
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CUOMO: All right, our thanks to Drew. For more on this story, let's turn to CNN Senior Reporter, Vicky Ward.
Good to see you as always. In fairness to you, you came on the show, you told us about this possible connection to Firtash, last summer.
VICKY WARD, CNN SENIOR REPORTER, KUSHNER, INC. AUTHOR: Right.
CUOMO: But now, there are new pieces, new clues. Where does this lead?
WARD: So, what -- what I told you a month or so ago, Chris, was that Firtash that -- sorry, Parnas had this lavish life -- lifestyle, private jets, bodyguards, SUVs.
[21:35:00]
What is new that we've reported is that five of the private flights that Lev Parnas took, since September, were billed to a credit card in his wife's name, though she only took one of those flights. It was a round-trip from Florida to Washington.
CUOMO: So, the question becomes why. So that's the same Svetlana--
WARD: Yes.
CUOMO: --who got the $1 million loan--
WARD: Yes.
CUOMO: --from Firtash's attorney. That begs the question did this money from Firtash's attorney go towards Parnas' mission in Ukraine to help Giuliani dig up dirt on the Bidens?
WARD: Right. So, the mystery literally deepens by the hour.
Two hours ago, thereabouts, documents were filed in court that included correspondence between a lawyer for Dmytro Firtash -- Firtash and Svetlana Parnas, in which the lawyer asks for the money back, after Lev Parnas was arrested, claiming that he didn't want to be embroiled in the scandal. It would be bad for his reputation.
CUOMO: Understandably!
Now, what does Parnas' lawyer say about this?
WARD: OK. So -- so Joseph Bondi, Parnas' lawyer, says that The loan, although intriguing, is irrelevant.
Receipt of these funds was known to prosecutors at the time, Mr. Parnas' -- sorry, at the time Mr. Parnas' original bail was set. It has absolutely nothing to do with the charges he faces.
Mr. Parnas continues to pursue being heard by Congress. He is a first- hand, highly relevant witness, and it is indisputable that his sworn testimony should be taken.
CUOMO: Now, Mr. Bondi is smart.
WARD: Yes.
CUOMO: But he can be right, and it's still a problem.
You're right. It has nothing to do with the giving of money into the campaigns as far as we know. But it could have a lot to do with whether or not Rudy -- Rudy was getting played by these guys around him. The FBI--
WARD: Right.
CUOMO: --maybe looking at Rudy for proof of him being used by these guys, you know this supposition that Rudy did the wrong thing. That may not be the case.
WARD: Well that of course would be the biggest--
CUOMO: Right.
WARD: --story of all, right that--
CUOMO: Whether or not Rudy got played by these guys.
WARD: Well and -- and then, I think, the role of Dmytro Firtash--
CUOMO: Yes.
WARD: --becomes more and more intriguing, more and more--
CUOMO: Yes.
WARD: --you know, really important questions to be asked this week. It was a contradictory narrative played out in court, the government asserting very clearly that he was a benefactor to Lev Parnas.
CUOMO: Right.
WARD: With all his Russian ties.
CUOMO: But why would he--
WARD: And the -- but the -- and his lawyer fighting back very strongly.
CUOMO: Right.
WARD: Saying, No, that money was for me, it's all very strange.
CUOMO: Yes. And you are getting us farther down the road than anybody. We look very forward to the next chapter. Vicky, happy Christmas to you.
WARD: Same to you, Chris.
CUOMO: And the whole family. Thank you for being with us--
WARD: Thank you.
CUOMO: --with this early gift, all right?
Look, I know that many of you want to see Well what did Rudy do? They're looking at Rudy, be open. This could be looking at Rudy for what the Feds think he did. They could be looking at Rudy to think what did these other people do to Rudy with Rudy? Stay open.
Now, Rudy, not so open, claiming that Democrats are trying to have him killed. Hyperbole? Yes. But why are we this way?
Let's bring in top investigator Andy McCabe on not just what Rudy's saying, because he's not a psychologist, but where do these new pieces take us in the puzzle? Next.
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GIULIANI: They want to put Barr in prison and they want to execute me. Good luck, by the way. The Mafia tried that. (CROWD APPLAUSE)
GIULIANI: And the FARC.
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GIULIANI: The Mafia, the FARC, and the word you can't say, Islamic extremist terrorists, have all taken out contracts of one kind or another to kill me. And my answer is good luck. I just get angrier and I go after you more.
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CUOMO: Boy! It's an ugly time. God forbid anybody's trying to hurt Rudy Giuliani. The concern is whether he was trying to hurt himself.
Let's stick to where the facts take us, nobody better to help than former Deputy Director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe.
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CUOMO: Early Christmas wishes for you and the family.
So, if a oligarch -- an oligarch with connections to Putin, was bankrolling his boy, Parnas, and whatever Parnas needed, because Parnas could also maybe help him get some legal relief from these American charges, what's the concern?
ANDREW MCCABE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I mean huge concerns, Chris.
I think, first and foremost, it's worth reminding your viewers that never have we seen a sitting President interacting with or being connected, however tangentially, to these sorts of people, to the Lev Parnases and Igor Frumans of the world, and certainly not to a Ukrainian oligarch, who is very tightly connected to the -- to Putin and the Russian Administration.
It's just I -- I can't even describe it. It's so out of the ordinary, it's -- it should take your breath away.
Dmytro Firtash is clearly pursuing a strategy of getting out from under the charges that currently face him in Chicago. There is no coincidence that Giuliani, Toensing, and DiGenova, went to the Department of Justice and advocated on his behalf.
Those are the same folks that are involved in this entire scheme to drum up dirt in Ukraine against Joe Biden for the purpose of helping the President's campaign. It is just an unbelievable overlapping of some very shady activity in Ukraine, and with some shady characters.
CUOMO: I'm just thinking, as you talk, let's take it at its least damning, which is Rudy didn't know anything about this. I -- you know, the guy -- the guy says The charges aren't true. Maybe
he talks to the lawyer. He says there's some plausibility to their case. I can hook you up with a good lawyer that the President doesn't exactly dislike, Joe diGenova and his wife. And that's the end of it. And maybe Parnas was playing Rudy.
If that's the most beneficial reading to Rudy Giuliani, significance?
MCCABE: Well true! However, Rudy Giuliani is the former United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York. He is a very sophisticated customer in these waters.
So, if anyone should have known the sensitivity of getting involved with people like this, people like Parnas, people like Firtash, it is a former U.S. attorney from the Southern District of New York.
[21:45:00]
So, I don't think it's -- I just -- I just don't think it's--
CUOMO: So, what's the worst reading?
MCCABE: The worst reading is that Rudy, and Parnas, and Fruman, and the team on the ground in Ukraine, working with Lutsenko, working with the folks who they hoped to be able to deliver dirt on Joe Biden, was actually being supported by, may be funded by, bankrolled by, a Ukrainian oligarch tied to Russia. And that is--
CUOMO: Illegal or just unethical?
MCCABE: It's certainly unethical. There are many ways this could be illegal.
I will -- I'll defer to -- to you've got a whole legal team here at the network that could give you a better analysis on which laws might be implicated. There are conspiracy laws. There's bribery laws. There's foreign registration laws. But it's -- it's really a morass that should cause Rudy some serious concern.
CUOMO: I ask you because you're the guy who used to make the cases. Andrew McCabe, thank you very much.
And also, look, it's very important to be patient on these. You let each step take you one more step. No need to go more. We'll see what the facts are. They keep falling anyway.
Andrew McCabe, thank you very much, best for Christmas. I'll see you soon.
MCCABE: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Next question, this President keeps claiming he's done nothing wrong, OK? His defenders say that it is almost like a crucifixion what's happening to him. Now, I see a play in that, and I don't think even it has anything to do with the President. I think it has to do with you being played. I have an argument, next.
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CUOMO: All right. So, as we enter the days that are suffused with the Spirit, we're reminded of what it is to be holy.
Sourced from the Good Book, Exodus, Ye shall not afflict any widow, or fatherless child. Leviticus, Do not mistreat foreigners who are living in your land but rather love them as you love yourselves.
You ever hear Trump say anything like that or follow those teachings? Nope. He's been the opposite.
So, the numerous references by this POTUS and his protectors are whistles in the wind to far-Right Christians that it's really about them that this President represents something bigger being under attack. But that is a lie.
However, if they do want this to be about the highest form of law and order, so be it I argue. And from Old Testament to New, we go.
And from J.C. Himself, lord and savior for many of us, prophet to others, and regardless of what you believe, a reminder of the best of human virtues, and he said to Pilate, I came into the world to testify to the truth.
Jesus' message was, in fact, only that. Jesus is love, is truth.
The truth is they're hiding the people who know the most about Ukraine, the two mentioned the most by others as being involved, and the two who supposedly clear Trump.
So, you want to talk about truth? Let's do it. Who keeps a perfect alibi quiet? Think about it.
In a real prosecution, what do you do? The -- the police are asking you questions. You bring the person in. You bring the people in. Here are the papers. I wasn't where you say I was. I wasn't with whom you said I was. I wasn't doing any of the things you allege. I can prove it every time.
And here we are in a political venue, which is what this is, right? That's what impeachment is.
Who hides the people whom they say can clear them? Think about the absurdity of that suggestion. Strip away the noise and the pained expressions of these politicians, the fake outrage from those who swore An affair was impeachable, but asking Ukraine to help in an election is unthinkable.
Just think, who would hide the people who could clear them? No one. Again, Amen, Amen, I say. I believe in invoking the faith of the faithful. Unlike the ineffable questions that the religious face so often, this we can know.
If the President is about the truth, and being persecuted, then Bolton and Mulvaney must speak.
This isn't about Pelosi stalling, or even contemptuous claims by McConnell and others that he's going to take a false oath of impartiality. Talk about being faithful to God! It's all noise.
Give us the two who know the most, according to both sides. And if the prayerful ploys don't work, then stick to the secular system that binds us.
The Founders warned, if you go through this process, and you shirk the truth, it would disrupt Public tranquility. Seems like an oxymoron now, right? Rarely in our history has public tranquility been as remote as it is right now.
The division entrenched. The gulf separating Americans wide, widening. And the man who swore an oath to us, and to God, to serve us, now serves only himself apparently.
Why would I say that? Nixon, Clinton, for the sake of this process did what this President refuses to do. They sent their top people to talk, and their witnesses were damning.
Here, Trump is for disclosure. And yet, he's the only one to suggest that the witness that's being withheld would help him. Again, it offends truth on every level.
That may be why so many of you, who support the President, say you want to hear from Mulvaney and Bolton. Look at the number of Republicans. Those two know the truth. Shouldn't you? That's the argument.
Now, we have a very timely BOLO for you with the holiday travel crunch underway. This is concerning, next.
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CUOMO: BOLO. That means Be On the Look-Out.
A high-ranking TSA official is warning the nation's airports. Here's the warning. They're becoming unsafe. Why? Because the Agency is prioritizing speed over security.
Now, the source here is a whistleblower. And they charge that top TSA officials have reduced the sensitivity of metal detectors and disabled technology on some X-ray machines, and ordered policy changes, all of which result in fewer patdowns. The troubling allegations come as a record-breaking 42 million travelers are expected to pass through our airports for the Holy Days.
Now, don't get upset at me, and say, Well, why are you telling the bad guys? That's not how it works. If we're finding out about it, they know, OK? That's how terror investigation has worked for a long time.
We don't know first. These are bad people who are looking for ways to cheat the system. So, when we find out that the system is making it easier, we have to expose it, because that's how you get the system to respond, and be fixed, and that's what we want.
So, thank you very much for watching tonight. I know this is a big -- big weekend for so many. Enjoy the Holy Days. I'll see you on Monday night. Now, my time is up. There's a lot of news. So, let's go to CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON.
You like my tie?
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Yes, it's mine.
CUOMO: Yes. Thank you so much.
LEMON: What happened?
CUOMO: You know, I came on the red-eye this morning. And, you know, Rose was supposed to make sure that I had everything for tonight. She dropped the ball.
