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Russians Hack Company at Center of Trump Ukraine Scandal; The Shifting Evolution of Trump Administration's Claims of Imminence; Big Events Collide on Calendar: Debate, Impeachment and Votes; Trump May Divert Billions More in Pentagon Funds for Wall. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired January 14, 2020 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

JULIA IOFFE, FORMER RUSSIA CORRESPONDENT, THE NEW YORKER: -- Reelection bid

BALDWIN: Would this signal to you that Vladimir Putin fears a Biden nomination for presidency?

IOFFE: Not necessarily. I think when you're somebody like Putin, you try to bet on all the horses. You know, while they were interfering in our presidential election in 2016, they were also interfering in the French presidential election are where they bet on three out of four candidates and all three of the ones they bet on lost.

You know, they want to disrupt the system. They obviously like Trump. He's a much nicer President to them than any other President has ever been and definitely would be nicer than Joe Biden would be as President. So it stands to reason that they would prefer Trump to stay in power than to have Joe Biden in the office.

BALDWIN: Yes, we know that Area 1, again, this security firm that detected the hacking, they're reporting that nine out of ten cyber attacks begin with phishing, and in this case, Russia set out of faux Burisma web pages like the one we have on the screen. And log-in pages that's tricking staffers.

This is apparently the same M.O. used on the Democrats as we mentioned back in 2016. So can you just talk to me a little bit more about what the Russians are likely to do with this information?

IOFFE: Again, we don't know what they took, what they were aiming to get, but if 2016 is anything to go by --

BALDWIN: Any indication?

IOFFE: Yes, then look, they took e-mails, they took internal communications, and they gave it to proxies that were allied with them like WikiLeaks. They created kind of strawman operations like goose fur and D.C. leaks, and drip, drip, drip, the information in the final weeks of the campaign, and did quite a bit of damage to Hillary Clinton's campaign.

But again, in this case we don't know what they were going for and what they took.

BALDWIN: No, I know, you have to caveat it with that. You made the point a second ago that President Trump is essentially the nicest President to Vladimir Putin thus far. Do you think, you know, because of that or in part because of that, and we see the, you know, what did or didn't happen in the week of 2016, do you think the Russians just -- that they're -- they aren't afraid of any consequences for doing this again?

IOFFE: Well, there were sanctions that were implemented against them in the wake of 2016, including Congressional sanctions, or Congressionally mandated sanctions. But they obviously weren't enough to deter them from going further and from using the exact same methods they used in 2016. That's one.

Number two is, again, even for the punishment that they have incurred and the damage from the sanctions that they have incurred, they've also gotten a lot back from this President. I talked back in 2018 to an old source from the Kremlin who said -- I asked him what you guys think of Donald Trump, and he said he's our wrecking ball. He's the best wrecking ball.

He's doing a lot of Russia's work for them and advancing a lot of Russia's interests for them, and they can't really do any better even with some sanctions in place.

BALDWIN: A wrecking ball, that's a quote. Julia, thank you. Good to have you back on.

IOFFE: Thanks for having me.

BALDWIN: President Trump greeted with huge cheers at last night's College Football National Championship game, and his quick chat with actor Vince Vaughn is prompting all kinds of reactions today.

Plus, is the Trump administration's claims about the intelligence behind the killing of Iran's top general shift one more, my next guest says the truth is never enough for this President. We'll ask him why. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:00]

BALDWIN: It's not quite clear why or how many but Iran has arrested, quote, several people over the downing of Ukraine International Airlines Flight 752. The few details are coming in from a spokesperson for the Iranian judiciary. After first denying it, Iran finally admitted over the weekend that one of its military operators mistook the plane for a cruise missile and shot it down ultimately killing everyone on board, 176 people.

The crash happened just hours after Iran launched strikes against Americans in Iraq retaliating for the targeted killing of top General Qasem Soleimani by the U.S. And once again we are hearing shifting justifications for why

President Trump authorized the killing of that Iranian General. And just remember this, how imminent a threat Qasem Soleimani posed can determine whether his death is a defense against terrorism or a political assassination.

Now some of the President's top officials are downplaying the imminent part of Soleimani's threat. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't know who used it first, but it reflects what we saw. We can dance around the Maypole on the word "imminent." I can assure you of this, the intelligence picture that was painted not only in those days but in all of the history that builds up to this, this doesn't just come to your radar screen new and fresh.

WILLIAM BARR, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I believe there was intelligence of imminent attack, but I do believe that this concept of imminence is something of a red herring. I think when you're dealing with a situation where you already have attacks underway, you have a -- you know there is a campaign that involves repeated attacks on American targets.

I don't think there's a requirement, frankly, for, you know, knowing the exact time and place of the next attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:40:00]

BALDWIN: Tom Nichols is a national security professor at the Naval War College and a USA Today columnist. Tom, it's a pleasure to have you on. Let me just dive in because you wrote this piece that the truth is never enough for Trump.

And I, quote, every moment must be a heroic thriller, an action movie starring Donald Trump and SEAL Team 6. Make your case.

TOM NICHOLS, NATIONAL SECURITY PROFESSOR, NAVAL WAR COLLEGE: Well, first, of course I don't represent the views of the Naval War College or the government. The Trump administration --

BALDWIN: We're good, camera moved. You're in the center. We're cool. Keep going.

NICHOLS: The Trump administration had a perfectly good narrative that it could have used for this operation. They could have said other administrations thought about taking this guy out. He's a bad guy. We finally had our shot, and we took it.

Instead, it always has to be a drama with the center -- with Donald Trump at its center. It always has to be an action movie. It has to be bigger than life. He did the same thing -- the President did the same thing with al Baghdadi where instead of just coming to the lectern, saying in a quiet and reassuring voice we have taken out a dangerous terrorist. This makes the world a better place. It makes the America safer.

Instead it had to be he was crying. He was whining. You know, he was in fear. I think in part it's because this is how his base perceives him, and he likes that perception. He likes to be perceived as a very brave, very active, very courageous President.

But I think that that undermines -- it steps on his message and it ends up here we are talking about whether or not he's being honest instead of whether or not this was a good thing to do.

BALDWIN: On the stepping on the message point because now you have, you know, Trump says and does what he does, and then you have these top officials trying to, you know, do this like verbal jujitsu trying to get their stories straight over the killing of Soleimani. What are the bigger implications for that?

NICHOLS: Well, a couple of things. First of all, when you end up -- if you're lying when you don't have to, you end up in trouble for lying instead of about whether or not this is a good policy. I mean, you know, it's perfectly legitimate for people in Congress and for the American public to ask the President to explain, was this the right thing to do?

If you're caught in a lie, what you end up talking about is who's going to end up, you know, in a tight spot for lying. But there's a longer-term problem. This corrodes people's confidence in what the President and the national security establishment tell them because these are things that could put their sons and daughters in harm's way.

And when they're determined -- when it comes out later that they're not telling the truth, this corrodes the public's trust. It corrodes Congress's trust. It corrodes the trust that we need from our allies. It's just never a good thing to do, and I think that it has a really corrosive long-term effect aside from the immediate political problem that somebody's going to be in trouble for not telling the truth.

BALDWIN: On the long-term effect in a second, but you know oftentimes when we see the President standing out there and speaking, he's throwing the Obama administration under the bus for x, y, and z, right -- think of the reason. But you write, Tom, about another former President that you believe is actually top of mind for Donald Trump. Who is that?

NICHOLS: Well, there's Barack Obama and Jimmy Carter.

BALDWIN: Jimmy Carter.

NICHOLS: Who dithered and was paralyzed and ended up with burning helicopters in the desert, and I think President Trump just doesn't want to be perceived like any of his predecessors.

He has -- you know, the one thing the President's good at is marketing. He may not be great at Presidenting, but he's an expert at marketing, and you know, it's his brand. I'm decisive. I'm tough, you know, I go after the bad guys. I'm not Jimmy Carter. I'm not Barack Obama, although I think he has a serious case of Obama envy, which is why he blames him for just about everything that came before him. And so I think that's part of the brand.

But again, if it turns out that you're lying, that injures the institution of the presidency. It injured our foreign policy. It injures our ability to do things in the world later.

BALDWIN: Great at marketing, not great at Presidenting, so says Tom Nichols. We'll leave it up to the American public. They get to have their say this November. Thank you, Tom, very much.

NICHOLS: Thank you.

BALDWIN: And if it seems that all these historic news events are happening at the same time, that is because they are. We will show you the calendar for the month ahead starting tonight, and we'll talk about the warm reception the President and the first lady received at the LSU/Clemson game.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:45:00]

BALDWIN: In just a few hours here on CNN, six Democratic hopefuls will face off in the final Presidential debate before the Iowa caucuses, and tonight's showdown will kick off this jam packed month of nonstop political events that could have a major impact on the 2020 election. And Chris Cillizza, our CNN politics reporter and editor at large, joins me now with a little bit of calendar whiplash. There's a lot going on.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER AND EDITOR AT LARGE: Yes, so I was thinking about this on the break, Brooke, and I was trying to think of a good way to describe it. You like when a bunch of meteorological conditions all come together like thundersnow. And you're like why is it thundering and it's snowing out?

[15:50:00]

This is the thundersnow of the political world. OK, so let's just go through it very quickly. OK, so we know tonight, on my favorite network, CNN, the Iowa debate, this is the last debate as you heard before the caucuses, we know that 6 in 10-ish people aren't totally locked in on their candidate, so it will matter.

OK. Then tomorrow, we jump right into the House sending the articles of impeachment to the Senate and picking managers. We know from Mitch McConnell that on the 21st is the first sort of official day the trial will have --- we'll do some logistical stuff in here.

First official day of the trial will be there, OK. We get into right here, early February, the Iowa caucuses, 20 days from today and it feels like I have been waiting for this for years. But 20 days from today, the next day, don't sleep in, Brooke.

Or actually do because it will be late at night, the State of The Union --

BALDWIN: State of the Union.

CILLIZZA: State of the Union speech, a hugely important thing. And then a week from the State of The Union, the New Hampshire primary. I'm not even going to get -- it's good that this kind of blacked out over here, because I'm not even going to get into the fact that --

BALDWIN: Yes. Let's just take it week by week, my friend.

CILLIZZA: February 22nd, Nevada caucuses, February 29th, South Carolina primary, but it is jam-packed. It's going to be hard to know where to look. I do think with the exception of specific days, the caucuses and the primary, I think we're going to be talking a lot impeachment, because I think that's gong to be an active story.

My guess, Brooke, by the way, as it rolls through all of this time and I just don't see how they can get it done by here. maybe around sort of this time that it ends.

BALDWIN: Yes. We know that the President wants to be able to stand up there, right, on February 4th, and say, aha, but timing-wise --

CILLIZZA; Yes. It's hard to imagine it happening by February 4th.

BALDWIN: Yes, yes. Speaking of the President, we know he went to the College National Football Championship Game, yesterday, and he was welcomed by an incredibly supportive crowd. So let's watch that for a sec.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It's just worth noting, at various events the reception is different, huge, all cheers.

CILLIZZA: Yes, no question. And we've covered when he has gotten booed during the nationals in the D.C., during the nationals in the World Series. So we cover this too and I think rightfully, so look, context matters. This is Louisiana. Louisiana is not a state that Donald Trump is not going to lose in 2020.

And to the extent that it's filled with LSU fans from we presume mostly Louisiana and Clemson from we presume mostly South Carolina, so two pretty reliably Republican states. So this not a California team against a Massachusetts team, and so we shouldn't be terribly surprised that he got the reception that he did. But it is worth noting. Brooke, back to you.

BALDWIN: Noted. Chris Cillizza, thank you. CILLIZZA: Thank you.

BALDWIN: The Trump is considering diverting billions of dollars, more of the Pentagon funds to build his border wall. This after Trump's victory in a Federal Appeals Court paved the way ahead for him. We have these details ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:55:00]

BALDWIN: Just into CNN, this terrifying scene unfolding at an elementary school near Los Angeles, 20 children are being treated after they were reportedly hit by jet fuel that had been dumped by a plane landing at LAX, Los Angeles International Airport. The LA County Fire Department tells CNN it happened at the playground of Park Avenue Elementary just about 20 miles from the airport.

The Trump administration is considering diverting billions of dollars of Pentagon funding for border wall construction, and sources tell CNN that that amount that he wants to redirect is five times more than what Congress has approved.

Jessica Schneider is our CNN justice correspondent, and Jessica, where would the money come from and would he have the approval to do that?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, at this point, Brooke, the President is not prevented from doing this, and this is money that was actually allocated for things like military construction projects, also counter-narcotics funding.

But we have learned that the Trump administration, they're considering diverting $7.2 billion from the Pentagon for those projects, that money will instead go to funding the border wall.

And this is really similar to a move that we saw just about a year ago when the Trump administration announced that it was diverting $3.6 billion from the Pentagon, and of course, as you mentioned, this is a lot more than the $1.4 billion that has Congress has allocated for the wall.

But it turns out, there are no limitations for transferring the money from the Pentagon for the wall. And just last week, Brooke, an Appeals Court gave the green light to the Trump administration to move forward using those military funds for the border wall.

Even though, really, the practical of all this has been a holdup of more than 100 military projects. You know, we see here the Trump administration moving forward with the wall, and really, I think the bottom line here, Brooke, is that this is all part of the President's push to keep immigration and the border wall at the forefront as we move towards the general election in November.

So this is a big talking point for the President, a big selling point for the President. and it turns out with this additional money from the Pentagon, it will give the government enough to complete almost 900 more miles of fencing by spring 2022.

So that's two years from now about. That falls short of the 450 miles of wall that the President had promised by the end of this year, but it really gives the President still something to tout on the campaign trail.

And Brooke, one other thing, just in the last few minutes the Secretary Of Defense Mark Esper was asked about this, asked whether he supported moving this military money to the border wall, he said, yes, he does, because he said defending the southern border is also part of protecting the homeland.

So of course getting support from his --

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