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CNN Live Event/Special
Rep. Mark Meadows (R-NC) Discusses His Role in Advising Trump Defense Team, Adding Witnesses and Documents; Trump Weighs in on Impeachment & His Legal Team; Republicans Harden Against Witnesses in Trial. Aired 11:30a-12p ET
Aired January 22, 2020 - 11:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:30:00]
ROSS GARBER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Now, normally that would be a crime. That's something that would be a crime. But not necessarily a crime. And I think that's the focus. Does it meet those criteria?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to take a quick break.
Still ahead, one of the president's most loyal backers, Congressman Mark Meadows, joins CNN live. We'll talk about his role in advising the Trump defense team.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:35:12]
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our special coverage of the impeachment trial of President Donald J. Trump. I'm Dana Bash, on Capitol Hill.
And I'm joined with one of the president's top allies in Congress, Congressman Mark Meadows --
REP. MARK MEADOWS (R-NC): Great to be with you.
BASH: Thank you -- from North Carolina.
You're also a member of the president's legal team. I should say it is extremely bright up here.
(CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: I tell you what, we're going to bring a bright light to the capitol behind us but we've got it out here today.
BASH: Exactly, exactly.
You are a member of the president's defense team, as are several of your other fellow House Republicans.
MEADOWS: Right.
BASH: The president was in Davos during the first day. You spoke with him. What is his feeling so far?
MEADOWS: Well, I think, for most Americans, they agree with the president that they want to get this over with. Certainly, he's been monitoring it. And so while he's talking about the great economy at Davos and how he's helping the American worker, he's certainly connecting and making sure that he stays connected with the defense team.
I think probably the frustrating thing was all the different amendments that were given at 2:00 in the morning, before it got over with. I think everybody wants to get to the facts of the case and say, does it support impeachment or not.
BASH: OK. So on that note, what the House managers and the Senate Democrats argue that they were doing until 2:00 in the morning is trying to do that, is trying to get the facts that the White House has been withholding, the witnesses that the White House has not let come up and testify.
(CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: Dana, that's a false narrative. You've covered it. I was in the SCIF with Adam Schiff.
BASH: I wasn't there.
MEADOWS: You weren't in the SCIF. You were down there covering it. And you know what they have done.
If they were serious about witnesses, if they were truly serious about witnesses, not only would they have subpoenaed the witnesses they want and left those subpoenas in place but they withdrew those.
But here's the other interesting thing. They somehow believe that their perfect case -- you know, when they look at it, they have an undisputable case. Their words, not mine. And yet, here we get to the Senate and now they're wanting more witnesses --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Well, but they -- let's talk about witnesses in a second.
MEADOWS: Sure.
BASH: Let's just talk about some of the documents and the information that they say could and should bolster their case.
(CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: Well, "could" is the key word.
BASH: They don't know because they haven't been able to see them.
MEADOWS: Exactly.
BASH: What they argue -- (CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: You don't impeach a president and then go on a fishing expedition in the Senate. It's just not the way our Constitution is set up, Dana.
BASH: Well, but how do we know that? The Constitution allows for the Senate to work -- there aren't specific prescriptions for how the trial --
(CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: For the House, it is their job to investigate.
BASH: But when it comes to the trial, if you are a juror, Republican or Democrat --
MEADOWS: Sure, yes.
BASH: -- why not get as much information so that you can make the right decision based on all of the facts, not just the facts that the White House wants to provide or not provide, because perhaps they're worried about what it would do for their case?
MEADOWS: Well, that's saying they're guilty until proven innocent, and that's not who we are as Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: Hold on, let me answer your question.
BASH: Do you think withholding it suggests that he's guilty? If he's not guilty, why not give it over?
(CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: Because that's suggesting that someone is guilty without the facts.
Here's what we do know. We know that, indeed, the House has a job to investigate. If they wanted additional facts, additional witnesses, then what they shouldn't have done is impeached 30 days ago right before Christmas. Why the rush?
We've got an election coming up in November. But yet, here they are trying to make a compelling case on the Senate floor that somehow their case, that they believe is iron clad, is not iron clad. They need more witnesses, more evidence.
And here's the interesting thing. It's a false narrative. We already have President Zelensky saying he wasn't pressured. We have five different people that actually have had direct communication with the president of the United States that said that there's no crime here and there's no impeachable offense. And --
(CROSSTALK) BASH: Congressman, I want to read this to you --
MEADOWS: Sure.
BASH: -- because this is what the White House put out on that issue. OK?
MEADOWS: Right.
BASH: President Zelensky says, "Thank you so much for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps, specifically where most -- we're almost ready to buy more javelins from the United States for defense purposes."
MEADOWS: Right.
BASH: The president then says, "I would like you to do us a favor, though, because our country has been through a lot," so on and so forth.
MEADOWS: Right.
BASH: When the president of Ukraine talks about defense and then the president of the United States then goes into, I would -- do us a favor, though.
MEADOWS: You're talking to somebody who understands that a lot better than anybody. So for the American people --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: There's such a power discrepancy between the president of Ukraine.
(CROSSTALK)
MEADOWS: You asked me a question so let me respond.
So here's the answer to that.
BASH: Yes.
MEADOWS: When we're talking about selling javelins -- and that's what that was. It was not Ukrainian aid, because the Ukrainian aid was a totally separate thing. That was about selling javelins and letting the Ukrainians pay for that. That's a totally different process that is not even part of this impeachment process. Yet --
[11:40:15]
BASH: And you don't think the president of Ukraine could have taken that as --
MEADOWS: Well, he said he didn't. I don't think --
(CROSSTALK) BASH: OK.
MEADOWS: So now you're saying the president of Ukraine is lying about it?
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: I'm not saying he's lying. What do you expect him to say? He wants the money. And he wants to be on good terms with the president.
MEADOWS: But that has nothing to do with the money. I want to make that clear to the viewers. That particular statement was about Ukraine buying javelins.
By the way, the only javelins they ever got was under the Trump administration and not the Obama administration.
BASH: I want to change to something else --
MEADOWS: Sure.
BASH: -- because you mentioned this and this was a big part of your broader defense on that Senate floor, which is Jay Sekulow saying, basically, how can you say that you don't have everything you want when you rushed through, you didn't go to the courts. If you want something from us that we don't think is proper, go to the courts and ask.
MEADOWS: Right.
BASH: At the very same time, the Trump administration is arguing in front of a federal court --
MEADOWS: Right.
BASH: -- that they have no access to anything that they are looking at. This is a different case but more broadly. So they're saying go to the court.
MEADOWS: On the executive privilege issues.
BASH: On the executive privilege. On the one hand, they're saying in the building behind us go to court.
MEADOWS: Right.
BASH: But the people here, who are prosecuting this case, know full well that the administration is saying in court you have no access to this information.
MEADOWS: Well, it's --
BASH: So isn't it a bit of a contradiction?
MEADOWS: It's not a contradiction because now what we have is Adam Schiff saying that he's not going to get a fair shake from the executive branch. But he's also saying he's not going to get a fair shake from the judiciary branch.
How many more people can he blame for him not having the evidence to bring forth to the American people and try?
This would be a more credible argument, had they actually subpoenaed John Bolton and left those subpoenas in place and working through the judiciary. But what they were afraid of is that they would get a response from the judiciary that sided with the president so they withdrew it.
BASH: One last question.
MEADOWS: Yes, sure.
BASH: The latest CNN poll shows that seven in 10, 69 percent, say that there should be more information if needed and new witnesses.
MEADOWS: Yes.
BASH: Do you feel comfortable given that -- let me ask you this way. Why not allow John Bolton to testify?
MEADOWS: Well, I mean, if we're going to look --
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: And others?
MEADOWS: Listen, when we start to look at it, the executive privilege aspect of that, I don't know that John Bolton has anything to add.
(CROSSTALK)
BASH: Why not let him try, then?
MEADOWS: We can. Let's take the impeachment articles back. Let's go back to the House. I was there.
You know, here's what we've done. We've actually put forth a case to be tried and then, all of a sudden, we're saying, well, we want more people to come in to bolster a case that is flawed to begin with. You don't do that, not to the president of the United States but, more importantly, not to the American people. And so that's my issue with it.
At the same time, what that's saying is, if there's seven in 10 that want more witnesses, it means there's seven in 10 that believe there's not enough evidence to convict this president of impeachment.
BASH: I'm not sure that's the way the question was asked.
MEADOWS: That's the way I interpret it.
BASH: I'm sure you would.
Thanks, Congressman. MEADOWS: Thank you. Appreciate it.
BASH: I appreciate it.
MEADOWS: Thank you.
BASH: Wolf, back to you.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Dana, thanks very much. Thank Representative Meadows for us as well.
George, what did you think about this Republican congressman, who's a member of the president's legal team?
GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE ATTORNEY: Again, it's the same garbage all over again. Oh, they should have called Bolton. Well, it would have been nice for them to call Bolton, nice of them to subpoena Bolton if they could have got Bolton to comply with the subpoena. He wasn't going to do that in a reasonable amount of time.
There's nothing that requires, whether you're a prosecutor getting an indictment before a grand jury, or the House of Representatives seeking to charge the president with high crimes and misdemeanors through articles of impeachment, there's nothing that requires them to hear all the evidence.
They only need to hear enough of the evidence that allows them to make the judgment that they have a case that they can prove. And they did that. And the place to prove the case is the Senate. And that's why we're here. Now they're blocking the evidence again.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR: George, what do you make of the argument -- we hear this frequently from the president's defenders, and it's accurate -- that he, the president, says there was no pressure and Ukraine President Zelensky, says there was no pressure put on him to do these investigations.
CONWAY: You have to feel for President Zelensky. He's in a difficult situation. He needs United States aid. That's why he was willing to go on to Fareed Zakaria's show to basically announce these investigations the way the president wanted him to.
And now he has to be fearful that, you know, the Republican Senate is going to vote 53-47 to acquit and President Trump is still going to be president. He might even get re-elected. I don't think so, but he might. And he's got to make nice to the president.
Everyone knows he's a vindictive man, President Trump. Ask the people of Puerto Rico, whose public officials criticized the way aid was handled to Puerto Rico. And what does President Trump do? He withholds -- he puts the kibosh on the aid the way he did with Ukraine. So Zelensky is just playing it smart.
[11:45:12]
BLITZER: Everybody, stand by. Still ahead, newly uncovered e-mails shedding new light on when the
Trump administration moved to hold military aid to Ukraine and who knew about it.
We're live up on Capitol Hill as the start of opening arguments in the Senate trial is only an hour away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:50:23]
COOPER: President Trump's impeachment trial set to get under way in just under an hour.
This morning, in Davos, where the president was attending the World Economic Forum, he weighed in on how thought his legal team was doing and why they have, he believes, an advantage over Democrats.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They never thought we would release it. When we released this conversation, all hell broke out with the Democrats. Because they said, wait a minute, this is different than Shifty Schiff told us.
So we're doing very well. I got to watch enough. I thought our team was doing a good job. Honestly, we have all the material. They don't have the material.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: We'll talk about that in a second.
One of the House Democratic managers, Congresswoman Val Demings, said the president not only just confessed about obstructing Congress but he's bragging about obstructing Congress. We'll discuss all of that, as I said.
Back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:55:48]
COOPER: Welcome back to our special coverage of the impeachment trial of President Trump.
The House managers are preparing to take center stage today. They have 24 hours over the course of the next three days to make the case on abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.
Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill for us.
So, I know you talked to some Republican Senators about possibility of witnesses in this trial. What are you hearing? MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: From the Republican leadership, they are hardening against bringing in witnesses. Mitch McConnell made that clear on the floor yesterday.
But a lot of his top allies and conference within the Republican leadership and elsewhere are making clear they don't believe it makes sense to go forward with witnesses. They also argue, the Democrats' arguments help their case against witnesses and hurt the Democrat's case for subpoenas, subpoenaing these witnesses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you personally want --
SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): Well, I -- I think the record is pretty complete. We will listen to arguments tomorrow and the next day and the day after that and we'll get to that decision presumably sometime this week.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Was the tone helpful?
THUNE: No, I don't think so. It's -- particularly, toward the end there, Nadler was especially partisan. And I think that's not helpful to their cause, frankly.
SEN. ROY BLUNT (R-MO): Our side has not changed our view on this. I think where House Democrats failed yesterday, and maybe Senate Democrats failed, was trying to use the time in a way that would wear us out or the chief justice out and deny the president's response, any response this week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Chuck Schumer said they were not trying to wear the members out. He said he was going to punt some of the amendment votes that stretched after midnight until today. But Mitch McConnell did not agree.
We're hearing from our sources that Mitch McConnell wants to wrap up this trial within two-week's time frame, Anderson. One way to do just that is to deny any witnesses going forward.
So yesterday, we saw the first tactic. Expect a more aggressive argument from the Republican leadership against witnesses. So we will see if any Republicans break ranks -- Anderson?
COOPER: All right, Manu Raju. Manu, thanks very much.
One of the Senators sitting in on the trial joins us next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:59:50]
BLITZER: I'm Wolf Blitzer, live here in Washington, alongside Jake Tapper, Anderson Cooper and Dana Bash. She's on Capitol Hill. This is CNN's special live coverage of the impeachment trial of President Donald J. Trump.
We're now just an hour away from the start of day two of the trial. But before that, we will hear from the majority leader, Mitch McConnell, and the minority leader, Chuck Schumer.
