Return to Transcripts main page

Cuomo Prime Time

Closing Arguments Monday & Final Vote Wednesday; Tester: "The System Failed"; Rubio Says Trump's Actions Are Impeachable, But He Will Not Vote To Convict. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired January 31, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:00]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Yovanovitch also said her firing was not the way she wanted to end her career.

Her service to our country spanned three decades, as I said, with her moving 13 times, serving in five hardship posts, risking her life, including Somalia, during Civil War, and getting caught in the crossfire between Ukraine and Russia.

The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, Anderson, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

The coverage tonight matters probably more than any other night so far. Why? We know what's going to happen. We have, for a while. But we didn't know it was going to happen like this.

An acquittal has always been the highest probability because of the political numbers. It'd probably be in the clear by Wednesday. But what a cloud will forever hang over the impeachment of Donald John Trump!

We were waiting to see how a Party would try one of its own, and now we know. They will try him not at all. No witnesses. The only outcome here is a unique brand of outrage that must be addressed in this country.

Special coverage continues right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TEXT: THE IMPEACHMENT TRIAL OF DONALD J. TRUMP CUOMO PRIME TIME.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: All right, let's go with the least important thing, first. Well what happens now? This is incrementalism. You'll have your closing arguments on Monday.

The interesting thing is this, OK? Hold on, and just listen for a second. Why? Why not just end it? "Oh, the Democrats, you know, they want to keep it going." No, they don't.

This is about the Republicans, and do you know why? Do you know why they want to give people a chance to debate when they just want this to end?

Here's why. Because they want to be able to come in front of you, and say the following. I'm telling you, you're going to hear this. We've heard it already. That's how I know.

"You know, what he did was wrong. I wouldn't have done it. I don't endorse it. It was inappropriate. It was even impeachable. I think they met their burden. But I don't think he should be removed."

And yet, they'll offer you no other solution. They want it both ways, because this was done out of fear of President Trump. So now, they have to sell it to you, because you know that's what it was. You know not having witnesses -- forget about the outcome.

I've argued here to you many times you can have a good-faith argument that what the President did is what seems obvious, as was his reasoning. It was corrupt but not worthy of removal. Why? Lots of reasons, they don't matter anymore.

But to vote for no witnesses means I have to hide that reality from you. "So, now I'm a politician. So, I'll have it both -- both ways. I don't like what he did. I wouldn't do it. I am better than that. But I have to make sure he gets a complete pass." That's where we are.

You know the expression "Mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore?" If Right, Left, and Reasonable are not there tonight, watching what their Senate just did, to their own process, I don't know what it will take.

So, let's take it to the table. We got David Axelrod, Van Jones, and Michael Smerconish.

Axe, look, the acquittal is not going to be a surprise. This is about numbers.

But what we're hearing from these chirping Senators now on the Right, of Marco Rubio, Lisa Murkowski, it started with Lamar Alexander, "What he did was inappropriate acts. But I think the people should decide. It's just that I'm going to vote that they can't have any information to do that."

Come on!

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. We've gone a long way from "He did absolutely nothing wrong." And I think it's a tribute to the case that the House Managers presented that was hard to -- hard to ignore, hard to deny.

Really, what Lamar Alexander said yesterday was "I don't need to hear from John Bolton because I believe that the President did what they said he did." Now, the truth is, it would have been awfully uncomfortable to hear

John Bolton recount the details of their conversations to reinforce what the President did.

But here's the problem we're left with, Chris. If you vote to acquit -- acquit, really the message you're sending is there is no penalty for what the President did. And, you know, a few CYA words on the record, in the next few days, is not going to change that.

I mean I've said why don't they come back if they feel strongly about this the day after they vote to acquit the President, and vote a censure resolution, just so that he can't say to the country, and the world, as he will, "I've been vindicated. I've been exonerated," when he clearly has not.

CUOMO: Right. Because if they want to say, Van, "I don't like what he did," well they're not saying that at all, except with empty words.

Now, part of this is a wager on their part that you can't beat him. Your Party's not going to beat him. He's going to be there. And he is their biggest threat. So, they've got to get in line, no matter how ugly it looks. That'll pass because they'll keep their position.

What do you say?

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well I'll tell you. It's a -- it's a very sad day because, you know, I think we sometimes forget, you know, we get in the muck and the mire and the back and the forth.

You know, democracies are very fragile. You know, demo -- democratic republics in the history of humanity are the rare, rare exception, and not the norm. And they really do depend on both sides playing the long game.

[21:05:00]

You know, tomorrow always comes. At some point, there's going to be another President, there's going to be another Congress.

And if you establish a precedent where, you know, the President can do, you know, whatever he wants, and even his own Party won't say, even at the level of censure, "Hey, look, we've got ideas about how Presidents are supposed to work. And what you're doing doesn't fit here," you create a very fragile situation for the country.

So I, unfortunately, I do think that we're now -- we're kind of hunkered down over the tweet -- the tweet cycle, the news cycle.

We're not seeing leadership that says "We have to do something to send a signal. There is a way we want the Commander-in-Chief to conduct himself, or herself, when it comes to foreign affairs."

And that signal not being sent, in fact, the opposite signal being sent, it's not just bad for the President or the -- the Party. It's bad for the Presidency and the Republic, and I think that's why it's a sad night. CUOMO: And that takes us to the man, they taught us in law school, we should refer to as, "The man on the Clapham bus," the Reasonable Man, Mr. Smerconish.

Smerc, how do you see this in a way where I should not be as upset about this failure of process as I am? Not outcome, not the acquittal, the process.

MICHAEL SMERCONISH, CNN HOST, "SMERCONISH": I am not going to talk you out of that. I think that the split in the Senate today is reflective of the split in the nation.

I don't think there was ever national consensus for impeachment or impeachment/removal. I also happen to think that Lamar Alexander spoke for many, when he essentially said, "Yes, he did it. But I don't think he should be removed for it."

But what's most significant is that we've all rendered our opinions without all the facts.

CUOMO: Right.

SMERCONISH: Chris, I know, as a lawyer, that no amount of review of documentation, or depositions, even if they're videotaped depositions, can replace what it's like to actually set eyes on a client or on a witness.

The venality of what has gone on here is something that we can't fully appreciate because we haven't seen these people. And you know I'm referring to John Bolton. I'm referring to Mick Mulvaney. I'm referring to two or three others.

Yes, there were lots of witnesses, but not the witnesses who could have given us the bird's eye perspective, the intonation of the voice, the words that he actually used.

CUOMO: Van, let me come back down the line to you about something because this rubs me the wrong way also. Rubio, Murkowski, Lamar Alexander, we're going to hear more and more saying "Oh, you know, it's the division, you know, the division in the country."

We've lived through a hell of a lot worse than a bunch of politicians who were too scared of one man to do their job. This country has come through severe cataclysm and found its way to a better place.

I don't believe this is about us. I believe this is about them, Van. This is about specifically one group of politicians with fealty to one President in one Party. I don't think this is about what's happening in the world. It's what they're making happen in their world.

JONES: Well I definitely think that if you're going to -- going to narrow down to what this -- what's happening in the Senate, if you are a Democrat, and you're watching this tonight, and you feel frustrated with what you see, it does turn out that probably the most important name on the ballot, in November, may not just be Donald Trump. It may well be Mitch McConnell. You know, you really do want, and expect, a Majority Leader, at some point, to at least make sure that the process seems like it's fair.

You know, even, you may have your pinky on the thumb, but you don't want to have your boot -- a pinky on the scale. You don't want to have your boot on the scale, so that nobody on the other side can feel good about what's going on.

So, I do think that the -- to the extent that we've focused so much on the Presidency, the Senate and -- and who is in those chairs, and Mitch McConnell, in particular, I think has become much more of an issue for Democratic Party going forward.

CUOMO: You know, all you guys help shape the next generation. You teach. You lecture. You organize.

Axe, you're at the University of Chicago. Kids are going to be coming up to you. And I'm telling you, we both know, they're going to be like, "Come on, Axe. You know it's a joke. You know it's all a joke. You know they just do what's good for them."

AXELROD: Yes.

CUOMO: "Come on, man, we all just lived through this." How do we cure this?

AXELROD: Listen, I think that the -- the point that Van was making is the one to stress, which is democracy is a fragile thing, and it is a participation exercise.

And you know what -- what Alexander said was well we've got an election in -- in 10 months. If people were disturbed by what they saw, they should be motivated in that election. But I am concerned.

Look, I fight this all the time that sense of jaundice, people -- especially among these young people who are very world -- worldly. They -- they want to improve the world. They're committed to it. But they have real doubt about these institutions. That's really dangerous for us. And I, you know, this is beyond Trump and beyond these individual Senators.

[21:10:00]

They have -- not only have they given a green light to a President to essentially do things that were plainly wrong, and dangerous, but they also surrendered their own prerogatives, as a co-equal branch of government, and said, "You can resist. You -- you don't have to submit to an impeachment investigation."

CUOMO: Right.

AXELROD: "We won't call witnesses. We won't look at evidence. We're just going to give you a pass."

What message does that send to him, and future Presidents, and what message does it send to the American people about how our institutions are functioning?

CUOMO: The truth, the truth, Michael Smerconish, last word to you.

The "Me" can be bigger than the "We" that one man can beat a system, one man can have enough power, even in America, to dictate what an entire Party does, solely on the basis of fear of their own position and power, how is that not true?

SMERCONISH: At least, in the short-term, it's accurate. But Monday's a new day. And I know that was relied on as a defense of the President by those who said "Let's settle it at the ballot box," OK, they got their wish. So, let's see what unfolds.

CUOMO: We will. That's for sure. Axe, Van, Mike, this is a tough night, not because of the outcome, but man, when they tell you they know something is wrong, and they won't even let you see the proof, that's a tough day to sell to anybody to keep believing.

So, the Democrats in the jury, thank you gentlemen, how are they going to spin this?

SMERCONISH: Sure.

CUOMO: I don't mean "Spin" in the politically toxic way like how do they -- how do they deal with this? How do you work with the other side when you know you just have to wait for the President tweets because they can't do anything that he tells them not to do. Nothing!

Let's talk to a prominent Senator, next.

[21:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: The biggest part of this was the witness question because we know it's politics. We know it's about votes. We know that the President's Party would acquit. So, the witnesses were everything.

Would they give you a fair process? Would they risk, you knowing from the same people that they say they needed to hear from, to expose what that acquittal is really about?

So now, no witnesses. That means it's really over. This President will be a victory-lapping man soon. But what does the message, what does the message do to us? Let's bring in the Ranking Member of the Senate Veterans' Affairs Committee, Democrat Jon Tester.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Senator, thank you for joining us tonight.

SEN. JON TESTER (D-MT): It's good to be with you, Chris. Thank you.

CUOMO: So, I got to ask you. How hard is it for you to keep any semblance of smile on your face when today America has gotten definitive proof that President Trump conquers all, conquers any notion of fairness, any notion of principle over Party? He has stepped on it and crushed it with the vote today.

TESTER: Well I'm incredibly worried. I had a friend email me, and say, "How -- how you're doing?" And I said the information is great, but I'm worried about where this country's going.

Chris, I don't have to tell you. We -- we've got to have checks and balances on -- on the branches of government. I mean, Congress has to have checks, the Executive branch has to have checks, the Judicial, you know the rule. You went to the -- the classes.

But the bottom line is we threw all that out the window today. And the precedents that this is setting, for the future, is incredibly disturbing. And -- and, you know, this is a great country.

This is a great country because past generations have sacrificed. They've sacrificed greatly. They didn't stick their finger up in the air and see which way the political wind was blowing. They got the facts, and they made decisions on facts, and that's what they did.

If it cost them their job in the Senate, so be it, or the House, so be it. They made the decisions in the best interest of the Americans of this country. And we've got to get back to that. This is -- this is disgusting.

CUOMO: Listen, you have a reputation. You reach across the aisle. You'll make deals. You'll work. You're not just going to be tied to what the Head of the Conference tells you. That has no partner in the GOP right now.

After something like today, how can you even believe that you can get anything done, unless you're doing exactly what this President is telling the Republicans to do?

TESTER: Well, look, I think you got to compartmentalize the stuff.

I think there was one good thing that happened today, at least good from my perception, and that is is that I had heard on the floor that there was a lot of pressure put on by the President that he wanted to wrap this thing up tonight, so he could, you know, go to the Super Bowl, and crow, and go to the -- the State of the Union, and -- and stand up and thump his chest.

That didn't happen. And that didn't happen because there was negotiations that ended up with an agreement that made that not happen. I think that's a good sign.

And -- and, quite frankly, in the end, Chris, I still got to work, and do stuff, like help fix traumatic brain injury and PTSD. I still got to work to make sure that family farm, and agriculture can survive. I still got to work to make sure that, you know, we've got good infrastructure. That all is going to involve working across the aisle. Even though I despise what happens today, I've got to be able to put that aside, and move forward.

But, in the meantime, we've got to make sure that we work as hard as we can, even though a lot of this was flushed down the toilet today, to hold the branches of government accountable to the people of this country.

CUOMO: Why would the people believe that there is any such ability of accountability when you can't even have witnesses? They didn't even have a trial here.

I -- I totally understand a good-faith argument that what the President did and why he did it is wrong, arguably illegal, but not worthy of removal, but no witnesses?

TESTER: Yes, I got it, OK.

CUOMO: Why should people have confidence in the system?

TESTER: So, let me tell you something, Chris. I can't debate you on that because I can't win.

The fact is, is the system failed. And it didn't fail because the Constitution was bad. It failed because the people who are enforcing the checks and balances forgot to read the Constitution.

And -- and I've got to tell you. I've listened for the last 10 days to the House Managers put the prosecution forward. I've listened to the defense by the Trump lawyers.

[21:20:00]

And I'm going to tell you, this is an open-and-shut case, unless we can get some people from the White House, like Mulvaney and Pompeo, and others, that will come in and say, under oath, this absolutely didn't happen.

If they're willing to do that, and -- and it isn't perjuring themselves, then I think it makes an entirely different trial out of it.

CUOMO: Right. First, yes, absolutely, of course, and well it should. It's the first time we've ever seen where one side says it has an alibi, and it has people that can clear them, and then they keep them from testifying.

And now, your Republican colleagues are coming out, and I believe, rubbing salt in the wound, by saying "You know what? What he did was wrong. What he did was wrong, Tester, you know, and probably impeachable. I -- I think they met their burden. But, you know, the division."

The division isn't about us. The division isn't this country. This country has lived through way worse than you guys. But the division is about them and what they're doing to any idea of collegiality within the Senate, let alone Congress.

TESTER: Yes, and I'm going to tell you something that, and you know this, but if -- if this isn't an impeachable offense that was laid out, unless the defense comes up with something, or somebody comes up in closing arguments that just blows you out of water, if this isn't an impeachable offense, we don't have any impeachable offenses in this country.

You know, if you have a -- of a present -- President that takes a foreign government and -- and uses it to investigate a U.S. citizen, who happens to be a political enemy, to get goods on them to, influence the next election, and corrupt our next elections, tell me what's worse than that that a President can do, other than just writing out checks to himself?

CUOMO: I'll tell you what's worse. Knowing that that happened, and working hand-in-hand with the person who did it, to not let the rest of us know the details.

TESTER: Yes, amen!

CUOMO: That's what's worse because knowledge of what you're doing is wrong, because who knows with Trump? Maybe he was even aware that he shouldn't be doing it this way.

TESTER: Yes.

CUOMO: You know all he sees is what he wants. He doesn't understand a--

TESTER: Right.

CUOMO: --lot of the right ways and to do things. It's the story of his life. But to know the right thing, and do the wrong thing, that's going to fall on Left and Right in the Senate to get back confidence in Congress.

TESTER: And -- and there's one thing that's been pointed out several times, and it is a fact, and we've seen it since this trial begun.

There's more and more information that's going to come out, as time goes on, and people are looking at the news media right now, and they're doing the work of the United States Senate. And, quite frankly, the United States Senate is the one that should be doing this work.

It's going to come out. It might come out next week, next year, three or four years from now. But the information, the truth, is going to come out, and it will show that the United States Senate has failed the American people.

CUOMO: You know, there was this movie, Training Day. Denzel Washington was in it, and at one point, he's trying to express how you can't come and get me for doing the wrong thing, even though he was a cop, and he says, "King Kong ain't got nothing on me!"

Those words could be spoken, and they'd be true, by Donald John Trump, tonight, looking at his own Party. "You can't touch me. I am bigger and more powerful than all of you combined." That's what today says.

TESTER: It was not a -- it was not a great day in the United States Senate. I'll tell you that, Chris. CUOMO: Senator Tester, I do not envy the task in front of you. But I must say I know how important it is, and God bless you, in trying to restore people's belief in good governance.

TESTER: Thanks, man, thanks. It's always good talking to you, Chris, and thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks -- thanks for keeping the government in check to the best of your ability.

CUOMO: That's the job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CUOMO: Hmm, some job we're all doing, right? I mean there's plenty to go around, letting it get to this point, where you can literally fake the funk on the process, and say, "Yes. And, by the way, I do think he did the wrong thing."

This is not a good day for anybody, no matter whom you support, no matter what you believe in. If the rules aren't followed, if the game can't be fair, that is a problem for all of us.

So, the political implications, Nancy Pelosi is right. The stain on this President will never go away. You can't get rid of impeachment the way you can, let's say, a censure. But what's the real consequence?

How do you think the President feels tonight? He may be watching right now. You know what? He's happy, and he should be, because he knows now, more than ever, exactly what he values most. He's got them. He's got his Party in the grip of his hand. And when he squeezes, they squeak.

Let's pick up what happens next with McCabe and Baker, next.

[21:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: Now, look, the Senate may have just voted to keep you from hearing what should be obviously heard. But you're going to hear it. You're going to hear from John Bolton. You're going to get the book.

And the people around this President, they may be too afraid to say anything to him, or even about him in the open, but they leak like a sieve. So, the truth of what this President knew, and did, and why, will come out. That's what we are for in this democracy.

But what does it mean going forward? Top notch investigators, Jim Baker and Andrew McCabe. The easy part of the analysis is what "Can" happen. Then we'll get to the "Should" part, and that's takes us to politics.

So, first of all, Jim, the -- the information is going to come out. Where will it matter and how?

JIM BAKER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, you know, the President is not out of the woods here, because there's a few more days now. And that was surprising to me that they let this process go on.

And Mr. Bolton may, you know, frankly, grow a spine, over the weekend, and miraculously decide to talk to the press.

That is certainly possible. And that would throw a monkey wrench into the, I think, Senator McConnell's plan, and the President's plan, for early next week. So, that's the first thing he's got to worry about.

All of the information that continues to come out supports the Democrats' original case. And so, you know, there's going to be more of that, as you suggested. But the real thing here is trying to figure out how to constrain this President.

What can the Democrats do, now that this is not an option? The President is extremely effective at wielding the power of the Presidency.

The Democrats have not been able to constrain him effectively. They have a lot of tools, in their toolbox, if they decide to use them, and now they need to figure out what to do.

[21:30:00]

CUOMO: Now, Andrew, I've been shy on the new reporting about Bolton because in our current process, the Republican Senators don't care about what it is. I don't even mean that cynically. I'm saying matter- of-factly, they don't care.

So, Bolton is suggesting that Cipollone could be a material witness here that he knows things, and that creates an ethical problem, should he been representing the President, when he knew that he might be a material witness.

But that's in the weeds for people. What's the significance of the reporting from Bolton that Cipollone may know more than just being a lawyer?

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: You know, I don't -- I don't think there's much -- I don't think there's much significance to it beyond the problems that it may cause Mr. Cipollone, in terms of his own bar license there he -- he could be facing some sort of inquiry or questions--

CUOMO: Why?

MCCABE: --about whether or not that was appropriate.

Because, as a fact witness, you could really make a strong argument that he should have recused himself from representing the President, under these circumstances.

If he was, you know, you -- you could say he was -- if this was a conspiracy, he was a co-conspirator in just being present in the meeting that Bolton tells us about, where Bolton is instructed to set up a meeting between Giuliani and Zelensky, and that instruction was given to him by the President, in the presence of Cipollone and Mulvaney.

So, but -- but honestly, like this is not a court case. We are not in front a federal judge. No one's going to step into the courtroom tomorrow and -- and demand that Cipollone be removed as Counsel for the President.

CUOMO: Right.

MCCABE: So it's -- it's--

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: Right. Comes back to mechanism, right?

MCCABE: That's right.

CUOMO: They just -- Jim, they just voted down witnesses. I mean there is no lower bar for "Are you open to doing the right thing than witnesses?"

I mean, if anything, the witnesses would have helped the President's side, because I still believe -- yes, Bolton, we know the worst of what he's going to say, but how they could have finessed it with Pompeo and Mulvaney.

I don't know why there's assumption he would have wound up in a worse place. He could have wound up in the same or better. So mechanism, who deals with this? What, other House investigations?

BAKER: Well I don't know about investigations. So, yes, this was a low moment for the Senate. But honestly, did we expect anything else? Probably not.

I mean the -- the President wields his power. The power flows from the support that he has from the people because the people are still in charge in the country. They still are. And -- and this is what they seem to want, at least some significant number of them.

CUOMO: 75 percent of the country, including almost 50 percent of Republicans, wanted witnesses. I don't think this is about the "Us."

BAKER: So--

CUOMO: I think this is about him, Jim.

BAKER: So, where were they though? Where -- where were they? Were they calling their Members and telling them that?

The people are in charge. The people have the power. They need to exercise that. You can't just answer a poll, and think that, miraculously, Senators are going to fall in line.

They want to -- you've got to be active. And -- and this is a participatory democracy. And they've got to take the action to exert the power that they actually have over the Members of Congress and the President.

But it -- you know, that's, I think, if anything, this whole crazy process has revealed that it's all up to the people. They are now going to have to decide, between now and November, how to hold the -- the President and Members of Congress accountable.

And then, they're going to have to get into the voting booth -- voting booth in November and exercise their vote, which is the true source of power. So, it's -- anyway, that's what I'm thinking about right now.

CUOMO: Andrew?

MCCABE: Yes, I hate to disagree with my colleague. But I'll tell you what. This Senate, this House, they don't care about those phone calls.

You have seen the same numbers of support for things like reasonable common-sense gun control laws that is supported by, you know, 60, 70 percent of people, high-60s of Republicans support actions like that, and this group has not managed to take any effort in that direction whatsoever.

So, they don't care about the phone calls. They care about the pressure they're going to get from this President. It is true though, at the end of the day, what matters are votes. And if people are outraged, which they should be, they need to get out and vote.

CUOMO: Well I'll tell you something. Here's something I almost never do.

You're both right because if Jim is right, and they get out and vote, and these men and women, remember, that it's not just one guy you have to be afraid of, it's not just one guy you're answerable to, they will vote you out. Then the phone calls become relevant again, and they start to worry about their constituency.

And they know it a little bit, Andrew. You know how we know? Because they're having it both ways with these fugazi statements they're making now about how "Well I think it was impeachable but not removable.

You know, I think it was inappropriate, and you should decide, but I just won't give you the information.

You know, I really am sad that the Senate hasn't done its job when I'm voting to not let it do its job," they're starting to wiggle. They don't want to be seen as malignant, as they are, in this moment.

But that's why we're here. The truth must come out. Andrew McCabe, Jim Baker, thank you very much.

[21:35:00]

So, history, this period is going to be remembered for a long time. It will probably be remembered as a moment that we should be embarrassed by. We have special coverage continuing about what will the context be, what will have mattered in this moment, and what still matters to come? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: So, this is only the third impeachment trial of a U.S. President. This one appears like it's going to end, like the other two did, with the President staying put. But I think an argument can be made that this one will be remembered differently.

Let's get perspective, Allan Lichtman, and Joe Lockhart. It's good to have you both.

Professor, first of all, would you like to reject my premise? Do you believe that this one gets remembered uniquely, or do they all blend together?

ALLAN LICHTMAN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN, DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: They do not blend together. You know, the Clinton trial, for covering up a private consensual affair, was a mere blip. I think there were two profoundly important historical developments of this trial.

Number one, it represented one of the last gasps of the traditional Republican Party in America.

[21:40:00]

Donald Trump has trashed virtually every principle that the Republican Party has professed to stand for, personal responsibility, personal morality gone, limited government, fiscal responsibility, states' rights gone, respect for traditional institutions gone. So, what we're seeing here is the only thing Republicans have to fall back on is Trump.

The second critical thing is this incredibly pernicious doctrine, perpetrated by Alan Dershowitz, which lets the President off the hook, but subverts our democracy, and that is this idea that as long as he doesn't commit an indictable crime, a President can do anything he wants, to cheat in an election because he thinks it's in his interest to.

And that means a President could use his legal declassification authority, for example, to share all our nuclear secrets with the Chinese, and the Russians, in return for help in an election.

He could order his Justice Department to investigate all his political enemies, including you and me, journalists, and -- and historians, because Dershowitz said a President can order anything that he wants in investigations. So, what we have here is an incredible full circle.

This whole scandal began in 2016 with Vladimir Putin's intervention, on Donald Trump's behalf, in the 2016 election.

It ends with the Dershowitz Doctrine, turning America into at least a version of Russia, and turning the American President into virtually a Russian clone, who could subvert our democracy and--

CUOMO: You're right.

LICHTMAN: -- cement his power at will.

CUOMO: Look, Dershowitz has been making this argument for a long time. The onus is on those who decide to accept it.

Now, Joe, I'll tell you one thing this President's got to be may be happy about than anything else. Putin must be jealous, you know.

JOE LOCKHART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

CUOMO: To see this exercise of power in a place where supposedly it was impossible. It's easy to do it there.

LOCKHART: Well I mean--

CUOMO: But here, he got these people in line. They won't even allow witnesses to speak about the truth.

LOCKHART: Well he may -- he may not be jealous since he's rewriting the Constitution now to give himself a -- an endless term.

But I agree with everything what -- that Professor Lichtman said. And I -- let me go further, which is the real impact of this is the separation of powers and is the -- the gathering of power in the Presidency, and the shrinking Congress.

I argued, forcefully, in 1999, that the President shouldn't be removed from Office from this. But 1999 was an example of Congress asserting their power over the Executive branch. I didn't -- I didn't think he should be impeached. But he was impeached.

And then the Senate asserted their power to have this trial. They had access to witnesses. They had access to all the documents. They made a judgment. I think the--

CUOMO: You wound up having Republicans going against--

LOCKHART: Yes, yes.

CUOMO: --political interests and voting to--

LOCKHART: Yes. And--

CUOMO: --keep him in Office.

LOCKHART: --and, frankly, we had one Democrat who voted to--

CUOMO: That's right.

LOCKHART: --remove him, Russ Feingold. And that was asserting the power of Congress.

Now, we -- we now live in a place where no President in the future is going to feel any compunction--

CUOMO: Sure.

LOCKHART: --to cooperate with Congress. That gives you an imperial Presidency.

The last thing I'd say is the biggest difference between '99, and this time, for historical context, is the President in 1999 acknowledged his mistake, and apologized. Donald Trump has said "I didn't do anything wrong. And I'll do it again."

LICHTMAN: Can I follow that up?

LOCKHART: "I'll do it again."

CUOMO: Go ahead, Professor, please.

LICHTMAN: Yes.

I agree everything Joe said, and let me take it even a step farther. It's not just a matter of the balance between the President and the Congress being upset.

And again, this is something that Republicans have always stood for, the balance of power, and checks and balances. It is also an undermining of the checks and balances between the President and two other critical institutions.

First is the Judiciary. Trump's lawyers have come before the Judiciary, and said, "We have absolute immunity to do anything to block the Congress. And you, the courts, can't even step in to overrule us."

And you know how many times Trump has attacked the courts. Moreover, the President's lawyers said, "Well when the -- the President follows the law. Under FOIA, when he had a court order, he released the documents."

You saw those documents, Chris. They were useless. Everything important was blacked out. And finally, the other check on untrammeled Presidential power that Trump is trampling on, and destroying, is the Free Press.

The Free Press is no longer a critical institution under Trump. It is now the enemy of the people, something to be trashed, attacked, and disparaged, in favor of his own big lies.

CUOMO: Right.

LICHTMAN: We know. If you say something loud enough, and often enough, no matter how much a lie it may be, even if you've made 16,000 lies, like Donald Trump, it sticks, and he never wants the press to check that.

CUOMO: Yes. And gentleman, I appreciate the perspective. You know, and as we go to break, you know, I want you to be careful about one thing. I don't put all of this on the President, you know.

LICHTMAN: Sure.

CUOMO: Even the original story of Frankenstein, it's about who made him.

[21:45:00]

You make your system vulnerable, you played out what integrity means, you stop doing what the process is supposed to do, you let everybody see in plain sight, that the game can be played, how do you blame someone who figured out how to game the system, when you made it so easy?

So, where should we be tonight? How should you feel? One name, Beale, Beale. There was a man named Beale once who told us exactly what to do right now. My argument, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: You should be mad as hell. And you need to show these people you will not take it anymore. Republicans are voting as expected, a likely acquittal of the President, a vote I could actually see on the merits. Not a great argument but plausible.

[21:50:00]

What is without any basis, except in bald-faced cowardice is the vote to hold the first trial in history where you willfully avoid the people who know the truth of the President's words and deeds.

And that takes us to the worst part of all of this, I argue. Now that it's safe, here come the Republicans admitting the truth.

First came Tennessee Senator, Alexander. "I think it was inappropriate and wrong for the President to do what he did -- and I think it was proven. The question is whether you apply capital punishment to every offense. And I think in this case, I think the answer is no."

No, it's not the question. The question is how can he think you should decide what the consequences, and then, in good conscience, vote to deny you the information to make that decision. And that job of spin there is from a guy who is retiring.

It gets worse! Florida Senator, Marco Rubio. "Just because actions meet a standard of impeachment doesn't mean it's in the best interest of the country to remove a President from Office. I will not vote to remove the President because doing so would inflict extraordinary and potentially irreparable damage to our already divided nation."

Now you want to say it's impeachable? You talk about inflicting damage. You keep your mouth shut. You keep your head down. But now, you say "He was rightly impeached."

But you deny people access to the proof of the same, and then you complain about division? You are creating the division. You called Trump a con artist who should be selling fake watches. Well who is selling junk now? This isn't politics. This is poison. Here's another dose. Alaska Senator Murkowski, supposed to be open to both sides, "It is sad for me to admit that, as an institution, the Congress failed. We are sadly at a low point of division in this country."

Murkowski is sad? If you're sad, don't be the problem that you are sad about. You vote to not have witnesses that you have been carping about? "We need to know, first person."

Don't let these people play you. The division is not about us. Our society isn't failing. They are the problem, Politicians who choose tribe and Trump over truth, position in Party over a position of principle.

And yes, I'm talking about both sides. But I'm looking at you GOP.

This is the very first time we've seen a Party, try one of its own. And it has sadly confirmed all cynicism about you people not being able to be about anything bigger than yourselves.

You want to play whataboutism? Fine! You made Putin jealous tonight, how you cower before Trump.

No, Democrats are not the same. Democrats, under Clinton, went after their own, outwardly and inwardly, over something way less important than this. And these solicitor Senators know it.

Then, the President went under oath. Starr got everyone and their aunt. Starr was allowed to go from a real estate mess to a blue dress. Republicans sided with Democrats to acquit. And that President apologized.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now that the Senate has fulfilled its constitutional responsibility, bringing this process to a conclusion, I want to say, again, to the American people, how profoundly sorry I am, for what I said, and did, to trigger these events, and the great burden they have imposed on the Congress and on the American people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUOMO: And, by the way, he felt he had been done dirty, and he still said that because he thought that was the humility that leadership demanded and he was right.

Now, you have the exact fear of the Founders made manifest by a President who openly mocks principle. He lies to your face. He calls you names, and he mocks you, even when you're in his Party, any time it suits him.

He may as well have grabbed Lindsey Graham, and so many others, by their ankles, and shook them upside down, as the currency of their credibility fell from their pockets like their lunch money, if Republicans think what this President did was wrong, even impeachable, but removal was too much, and that's what you're going to hear. It's going to fill your screens.

They're going to try to salvage their souls. Well force them to show it. Censure him. They did it to Andrew Jackson, for basically doing the same thing, assuming power not confirmed to him by the Constitution.

You know, in the movie, Network, there was this famous call to outrage against the politicians, and the systems, who were doing you dirty. "Go to your windows. Scream that you're mad as hell and you're not going to take it anymore."

[21:55:00]

Well I'll tell you what. I hope your voices echo all over this country. Denying you due process was wrong. Let them know that you know what they did and you are mad as hell. That's the argument.

Now, this impeachment trial, what do you think it's done for the President? I'll show you, and it is a big time BOLO.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: BOLO. Be On the Look-Out.

The fear that Trump will now feel free to do more of the things, that he shouldn't do, we're already seeing it, out on the hustings in Michigan and Iowa, making at least 27 false claims, on just 25 topics, sometimes repeating them in rapid succession, his accomplishments throughout the year, the 2016 election, even crowd size.

When you know that no one can check you, what is there to stop you from ignoring all rules and standards? Your inner code? Your principle? You think that's going to matter now and with this President? Be On the Look-Out for the answer to that question.

Thank you very much for watching. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Now I'm going to give you the pep talk, glass half full. I mean, he can be checked, even if -- even if folks have to wait until November. But I know what you're saying.