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Recapping the State of the Union; Interview with Sen. Ben Cardin (D-MD); More Americans Evacuate from China. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired February 05, 2020 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: -- reality, the economy has been growing since six months into Barack Obama's administration, the unemployment rate has been falling, job creation has been sustained for a very long period of time.

And job creation has actually slowed in the monthly averages of jobs during the Trump administration, from the second term of President Obama. Not Trump's fault, that's normal in a recovery this long. But the president was taking credit for things that were happening before he ever got to the Oval Office -- Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: John Harwood at the White House, fact-checking. Thanks very much.

Joining me now to discuss all this, Tim Naftali, CNN presidential historian as well as former director of the Nixon Presidential Library -- Tim, good to have you on this morning.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: So you've watched a lot of State of the Union addresses during (ph) time (ph) by different presidents. This one, particularly political, also filled with some -- as the president is wont to do -- some specious claims. How unusual?

NAFTALI: This is the third time in our history that a president who is either facing impeachment or has been impeached, gives as State of the Union address for the American people. And this one was a little different.

Richard Nixon -- all of these speeches are legacy and campaigning.

SCIUTTO: Right.

NAFTALI: Nixon and Clinton were hoping to finish their terms -- Nixon had three years to go, Clinton had two years to go, they weren't going to face the voters again. Most of their campaigning was directed at the people sitting in front of them because their fate rested with members of Congress.

This president is the first impeached president ever to have the opportunity to go before the American people. His speech was directed outside the chamber, and so it was much more partisan and there was no effort at healing.

You know, when the American people go through an impeachment, it's a traumatic -- however you think of the -- whatever you think of the president, it's traumatic. Bill Clinton, he didn't mention impeachment once but he mentioned the first lady four times, and he honored the first lady. And that was clearly --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NAFTALI: -- a "I'm sorry." Richard Nixon promised full cooperation with the House impeachment inquiry. Richard Nixon then talked about a structure of peace.

This president could have apologized by saying he would promise election security.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NAFTALI: He could have -- he could have mentioned what we went through by talking a little bit about Ukraine and its defense.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

NAFTALI: But he didn't mention anything that indicated that he had, in Susan Collins' words, learned from his mistake.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And that's something he's avoided, prioritizing election security, throughout his administration.

So we just have some new reporting in. And that is, Nancy Pelosi in a party caucus, had this line. She said that he shredded the truth, so -- I am paraphrasing a little bit -- shredded his speech there.

That moment, of her tearing up the speech as he finished, there, one, do you believe that was pre-planned? And, two, was it the right thing to do?

NAFTALI: Well, I think the president should have shaken Speaker Pelosi's hand, but I also think that it is not helpful to us for there to be reality television mixed with our political discourse. I think the president has used reality television in a damning way. I think Speaker Pelosi responded.

I don't think it's helpful to give memes to the haters, and although I understood why she ripped up his speech, it's the first time that's ever been done and her predecessors, who were sitting there when an impeached or likely impeached president stood before them, decided that they would be the better ones by engaging and maintaining decorum necessary.

SCIUTTO: There was a lot of political boilerplate to throw around. And the president, of course, one of those moments is awarding the Presidential Medal of Freedom to Rush Limbaugh, who of course is going through his own health crisis and we certainly wish him the best. Is that an unusual choice for a Presidential Medal of Freedom, historically? NAFTALI: Let me tell you about a difference. You want to see a difference between last night's performance and the last time an impeached president spoke to us? Who did Bill Clinton honor in 1999? Rosa Parks. And you know what? I went and watched this again last night. She received a thunderous bipartisan applause, thunderous, OK?

Rush Limbaugh -- and, again, one would never wish the kind of physical challenge he faces on anyone -- Rush Limbaugh pushed the birtherist, he pushed the conspiracy theory that President Obama wasn't born in this country. Divider, not uniter.

Healing comes from uniters. Presidential Medals of Freedom should go to those that promote a united country that stands for the values our founders created. That's Rosa Parks, it's not Rush Limbaugh.

[10:35:01]

SCIUTTO: Tim Naftali, always good to have historical perspective. Thanks very much.

NAFTALI: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, do you believe this impeachment hurt the president? New polling suggests that may not be the case. So is it possible Democrats will now pay a political price? We'll have more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. Just now, Democratic Senator Joe Manchin, still not saying whether he will vote to acquit the president today in the impeachment trial. He is calling it a very difficult question.

[10:40:02]

I'm joined now by Democratic Senator Ben Cardin of Maryland. He's also a senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and of course will be voting today as well.

Senator, thanks so much for taking the time.

SEN. BEN CARDIN (D-MD): Jim, it's good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: Senator Manchin, he had interesting comments and he had criticism not just for the president at the State of the Union, last night. He also said that Pelosi ripping up the president's speech was, in his words, "very bad." I wonder if you agree that the speaker dove into sort of Trumpian-style politics there.

CARDIN: Well, this is the State of the Union. And this is an opportunity for the president to address our nation, to bring us together. And it was like we were at a campaign rally. I mean, there's been enough Trump campaign rallies in 2019 and before, we didn't need to use the State of the Union address for a campaign rally. I think Speaker Pelosi was frustrated by the use of the president of this forum, for political purposes. SCIUTTO: OK. Senate impeachment trial, not to be forgotten. This

afternoon, there will be a vote on the Senate floor to remove or acquit sitting president of the United States -- and by the way, there's Senator Lamar Alexander, your Republican colleague, who's speaking now, his final words on this.

The president, barring remarkable events, will be acquitted this afternoon. I'm just wondering, in the final analysis, did the Democrats lose this battle?

CARDIN: Well, Jim, it's an important question to ask, but I don't think we had any choice. The Constitution requires us to hold the president accountable when he goes across the line. We know that Department of Justice will not hold him responsible for criminal charges, so really, the only option is to pursue an impeachment case.

It doesn't mean it's going to help you politically, but that's something you have to do under the Constitution, and the House made those determinations. Once it came to the Senate, we had to try the case. And unfortunately, the Senate failed in allowing a fair trial by excluding testimony and evidence under oath. So it was a circumstance that I think we had to deal with, the politics of it is certainly uncertain.

SCIUTTO: Take a quick moment here, because I want to listen in to what Senator Alexander is saying here and get your reaction. Take a moment, have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R-TN): -- simply for actions that are inappropriate. The United States Constitution says a president may be convicted only for treason, bribery and other high crimes and misdemeanors. President Trump's actions regarding Ukraine are a far cry from that.

Plus, I said, unlike the Nixon impeachment, when almost all Republicans voted to initiate an impeachment inquiry, not one single Republican voted to initiate this impeachment inquiry against President Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: OK, Senator Cardin, back to you there. Because he's making two arguments here. First, on the argument that this did not meet the standard, the president's behavior in Ukraine. Senator Lamar Alexander did call it inappropriate there. Your response to that argument?

CARDIN: We debated this. Abuse of power, which is an abuse of trust, is clearly an impeachable offense. If not, you have the Dershowitz conclusions, that the president could do -- use any power in his office he wanted to, for political purposes to get re-elected. As long as he didn't break a law, he could do that and it wouldn't be held accountable. And many examples were given.

That's absurd. The framers of our Constitution wanted the Congress to be able to contain the power of the president from abuse of trust, and no branch of government, no person is above the law.

SCIUTTO: His other argument you heard there -- and we heard this repeatedly -- is that unless it's bipartisan, it can't happen. Which is kind of, by definition, preventing impeachment. If a party just says, we're not going to impeach, then you can't have the impeachment because it wouldn't be bipartisan. What's your response to that argument?

CARDIN: Well, Jim, I thank you for answering my question. The point is that the House of Representatives has the sole power on impeachment. They have to make that judgment, as to how serious the offenses are, how much consensus they can get, that's a sole -- solely within the House of Representatives.

The Senate needs to try those articles of impeachment, and the Senate failed here by giving a fair trial. How can you discover the truth if you can't hear from witnesses under cross-examination under oath?

SCIUTTO: Senator Alexander there, other Republicans as well have granted the premise, they've granted the facts of the allegation here, that the president pressured a U.S. ally in return for a political favor here. And yet they acquitted him.

You know this president, the way he operates. I wonder, do you believe he's been given license now to seek or accept foreign help for the November election this year?

CARDIN: Yes. Well, that's our major concern. If you look at the Mueller investigation, which clearly found that there was many cases where the president was obstructing the investigation, and yet the president claimed he was exonerated, and it looks like he will continue to do the same thing.

[10:45:10]

Over and over again, the president's repeated his conduct. So, yes, we are concerned that with an acquittal this afternoon, that the president will say he's been exonerated, and he'll continue to do what he did before, even though there's so many senators -- including Republican senators -- who said what he did was wrong, the president will say it was right because that's the way he talks --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

CARDIN: -- and he'll continue that behavior.

SCIUTTO: Yes, you might put a $5 bet on a total exoneration tweet, following the vote this afternoon.

Before we go, 2020, you have -- let's set aside the delay in voting for a moment here. But the results of this show a very divided Democratic field. And upstart in Pete Buttigieg, a disappointing performance for the former vice president, Joe Biden.

I know your focus -- as the focus of many Democrats -- is beating Donald Trump. After this kind of result, are Democrats more or less likely to be able to do that?

CARDIN: Well, it's a long time between now and November. We have excellent people who are running for our nomination. But the golden rule must be that the objective here is to beat Donald Trump, so let's make sure that the way we conduct our primaries, our caucuses, that we as advocates of the Democratic Party stay united to the November victory.

SCIUTTO: Senator Ben Cardin, we know you have a big duty to undertake this afternoon. We appreciate you joining the program.

CARDIN: Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Hundreds of Americans, now stranded on cruise ships while hundreds more returning to the U.S. This, after being trapped at the center of the coronavirus outbreak. We're going to have more on the global effort now to contain the deadly virus, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:51:11]

SCIUTTO: The White House is offering, this morning, to help China contain the coronavirus as thousands are held on cruise ships to try to stop the deadly disease from spreading. It's one of a number of measures being taken. Hundreds of American citizens, back in the U.S. now, after returning from Wuhan, China, ground zero for the outbreak, many being flown back on chartered flights.

CNN spoke to one father, hoping to be reunited with his family, it's emotional. This, after being separated for weeks with no answers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEN BURNETT, AWAITING FAMILY FROM WUHAN: There's a feeling of helplessness because I want to help them but I can't, I can't. There's nothing I can do, I can't get there, they can't get out of there. If they need something, how am I going to help them?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: CNN's David Culver joins me now from Beijing. David, what else are we learning about Americans returning to the U.S. now? I mean, it's really an exodus for foreigners, from China.

DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: it is. And it seems like everyone that I've spoken with who is an American within the epicenter of all of this, the city of Wuhan, is eager to get out. And they have been trying to figure out how to do so.

Because, initially, the first flight was mostly U.S. diplomats and their family members; they did offer a select number of seats for citizens, but the reality was there were more than they could provide, so -- who wanted to go. So they had to now provide extra flights, which they're doing now. And the flights that have just arrived in the U.S., some 350 people, I

mean, the journey is just beginning in all reality. They're going to go through two weeks of quarantine, 14 days, mandatory quarantine because of the origin of that flight, Hubei province.

And because of that, they're now going to have those two weeks where they'll have to figure out what's next after that. And that's the difficult challenge here.

SCIUTTO: OK. So these cruise ships, now, this is another one of these measures being taken that shows the seriousness with which health officials, governors -- governments, rather -- are taking the spread. What's happening and how long are these people going to be stuck on these cruise ships?

CULVER: Right. So here's what's happening. We've got two cruise ships. One is off the coast of Hong Kong, the other, off the coast of Japan. The one off the coast of Japan, you've got 3,700 passengers and crew. We know that at least 10 of them have tested positive for coronavirus, and they're now taken ashore in Japan to be treated in hospitals.

The origin of that one is believed to have been a man who was in Hong Kong. They tracked him back to the ship, 12 days earlier, realized he had been on that ship, and now that entire ship is in quarantine. They could potentially be off the shore, having food and supplies shipped out to them, essentially, for 14 days.

The other one's off the coast of Hong Kong, 1,800 people. Similar scenario, it's just sitting (ph) in the unknowns (ph).

SCIUTTO: David Culver, good to have you on the ground there in Beijing. This is certainly a story that we're going to continue to follow.

[10:54:00]

Of course, other news, as the Democratic candidates wait for the final results from Iowa, candidates are pushing ahead already to the New Hampshire primary. They're on the ground there, campaigning away. Who's got the momentum now?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Right now, FBI Director Chris Wray is on Capitol Hill, he's testifying before the House Judiciary Committee. Just moments ago, the chairman, Jerry Nadler, asked him about improper investigations by the FBI. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JERRY NADLER (D-NY), CHAIRMAN, JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Has the president, the attorney general or any other administration official asked the FBI to open an investigation into Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, John Bolton or any member of Congress? CHRISTOPHER WRAY, DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATIONS: Mr.

Chairman, I have assured the Congress -- and I can assure the Congress today -- that the FBI will only open investigations based on the facts and the law and proper predication.

No one has asked me to open an investigation based on anything other than the facts, the law and proper predication.

NADLER: Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: We have this news, just in to CNN. A very watched vote in the impeachment trial, the vote by the Senate, just this afternoon, Senator Doug Jones, a Democrat from Alabama but in a very tough race in a red state, he has just announced that he will vote to remove the president.

I'm going to quote here now. "After many sleepless nights, I have reluctantly concluded that the evidence is sufficient to convict the president for both abuse of power and obstruction of Congress."

[11:00:08]

The Democrat, Doug Jones --