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Don Lemon Tonight

Too Late For Excuses; President Trump Is Doing It Again; President Trump Emboldened After Impeachment Acquittal; President Trump Thanks Justice Department For Undercutting Its Own Prosecutors And Intervening In Roger Stone Sentencing; Democrats Shift Focus To Nevada, South Carolina, Super Tuesday; Biden Assures Donors He's On Track Despite Iowa And New Hampshire Losses. Aired 10-11p ET

Aired February 12, 2020 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[22:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Thank you for watching. "CNN TONIGHT" with D. Lemon starts right now.

DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Was that a little shade? Were you giving a little shade there?

CUOMO: I'm giving a lot of shade.

LEMON: So, here's the thing.

CUOMO: I am the storm.

LEMON: Susan Collins is very concerned. She's, you know, she's going to call the White House because she thinks the President should not be interfering in the DOJ and she's - he shouldn't be tweeting. So, I'm glad she's concerned, you know.

CUOMO: Well she'll set him straight.

LEMON: Strongly-worded letter.

CUOMO: She'll set him straight.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I mean he responds very quickly to any kind of negative feedback.

LEMON: Yes, he's learned his lesson.

CUOMO: Yes. I mean, he knows.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: He knows what to do and what not.

LEMON: We're being a little tongue and cheek. But I mean, it is a scary time and I'm going to talk about that in a moment. If --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: We're going to be a little bit bunk mates in political prison. He keeps going down this road. Because what's to stop him?

LEMON: True.

CUOMO: We should really think sedition. Aren't these guys un- American? Aren't they anti-American if they're criticizing the president? That Lemon and Cuomo, they got to go.

LEMON: Yes. Well, I thought you were talking about someone else. So, are you asking me if they're un-American? I was going to say I'm not going to question anyone's patriotism.

CUOMO: No. I'm saying they're going to question ours, my brother.

LEMON: No.

CUOMO: It's going to be you and me. Nobody knows.

LEMON: Come on. Do you --

CUOMO: You say that now. But what's to stop him?

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I don't really --

CUOMO: What is to stop him?

LEMON: Do you really care? You know how I feel about Twitter and social -- I don't really care about that. I don't care what people write --

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: I'm not talking about the president.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: I'm talking about honoring the free press versus saying, you know what, I don't think they should be able to talk about a president that way. I think I'm going to take executive action and stop people who are seditious, who are being un-American by criticizing me and my power.

LEMON: Yes. Well, you're right about that.

CUOMO: Yes, I know.

LEMON: But I think that we can't allow that to stop us from doing our jobs.

CUOMO: No. but I'm just saying --

(CROSSTALK) LEMON: Because our job is built into the Constitution and it's protected by the Constitution.

CUOMO: We may be doing it. We will be wearing the same thing every day. And it won't be this.

LEMON: Stripes? (Inaudible) on stripes earlier so maybe he's way ahead of the game.

CUOMO: He'll be OK.

LEMON: He -- listen. I got to tell you this, though. There will be a Democratic president in the White House one day. One day. And there will be no room for criticism from Republicans. If he or she whomever that president is decides to color outside the lines or go outside of the lines or what is considered -- once was considered a norm for a president.

And I think Democrats will probably sit back and say I told you so. But maybe they'll do the right thing. But who knows? I think they have set not a very dangerous precedent when it comes to what happened in the impeachment hearings. But I think they set dangerous precedents already. That the president is wielding all power that he wants and that there are no guardrails.

And so, the next president who comes into office will just say when it is a Democratic one and there will be one. Will say, I can do whatever I want and Republicans are going to have to sit by and they're going to have to take it.

CUOMO: I agree. I think that we are seeing that he is fully empowered by the past and the impeachment trial. And here's the irony. He attacks the free press. But you know what? Democrats tried that B.S. and they try to become what they say they oppose and they're going to get the pain train just like the Republicans do right now.

Nobody is above what this Constitution is supposed to protect. Not on our watch. Political pay back let them deal with that in their own ways. They cannot do it to compromise this country, either party.

LEMON: Well, we shall see when that happens. If -- if you and I are sitting here maybe we'll be old and gray. But we'll see. I'm telling you.

CUOMO: Nobody knows.

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: I've been around a long time. It always comes out in the rinse. And trust me, and one day we'll be sitting here and I'll say remember when I said this, Chris?

CUOMO: You got to police it though.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: And that's the problem. Is that, it will be harder to police the next time because they'll say, it was OK when he did it.

LEMON: Yes.

CUOMO: But they'll be wrong.

LEMON: Be on the lookout. It's time to go.

CUOMO: Bolo.

LEMON: I'll see you, sir.

This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.

The president of the United States is a man on a mission. It is a dangerous mission. Dangerous to our democracy. That's not hyperbole. It's just the truth. Sit back and listen.

And he is doing it right out in the open. He is ignoring checks and balances, he is disrespecting the rule of law, bending to Congress, bending Congress to his will, and now, right now as we speak, he's targeting the Justice Department.

Not only is he not making the slightest attempt to hide what he is doing, he is broadcasting it. That is the whole point of all of this. The president wants everyone to know that he is punishing his perceived political enemies. Consequences be dammed.

And I say perceive for a reason. I say it because for President Trump it does not matter if you're doing your job as we just referenced. And if you're doing your job as a journalist, you're doing your job as an ambassador, you're doing your job working for any part of the government.

It doesn't matter if you're a following your conscience. It doesn't matter if you are telling the truth. If your interests and the country's interests aren't the same as his, but what he thinks is his best interest, you're his enemy.

[22:05:05]

In the weeks since his impeachment acquittal. And that's -- right, it's only been one week. Can you believe that? And emboldened President Trump has blasted members of his own party who dare to cross him. Fired impeachment witnesses who dared to tell the truth under oath. Those people were under oath.

And now, he's congratulating -- by the way, he never went under oath. Right? He is congratulating his ever-enabling attorney general for smacking down four career prosecutors who dared to recommend Trump ally Roger Stone should serve up to nine years in prison. Prison for felonies.

The DOJ overruling four of its own to call for a more lenient sentence. You can disagree. Do you think the Senate should be harsher or was too harsher, or whatever? But just think about what he's doing. Those prosecutors the entire team quitting the case after they were

publicly humiliated by Bill Barr. What they did was unprecedented in the history of the United States.

Are you concerned? Like really concerned or you're Susan Collins concerned? Are you going to send a strongly worded letter to the White House or you're just going to vent on Twitter, you're just going to sit there and go huh, I can't believe it. But are you really concerned as an American citizen? Because you should be.

And that is not the end of the president's interference on behalf of his long-time crony. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you considering a pardon for Roger Stone?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: I don't want to say that yet. But I'll tell you what. People were hurt viciously and badly by these corrupt people. And I want to thank if you look at what happened, I want to thank the Justice Department for seeing this horrible thing. And I didn't speak to him by the way, just so you understand.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yes. Google the words projection as it comes to what people do and what this president might be doing. Projection.

He says he didn't speak to the DOJ because he didn't have to. He tweeted about it. He did it over and over and over and over. It is right there. It is in black and white. And this White House has told us that the president's tweets are official statements.

And it's pretty clear that the attorney general noticed. How could he not, it's public?

But let's not forget the crimes Stone was convicted of. This is not -- this is jaywalking. It was seven felonies. Charges including witness tampering, lying to Congress, witness tampering, lying to Congress, and obstructing justice. Obstructing justice in a case that came out of Roger Mueller's investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election.

Russian interreference meant to help Trump and hurt his opponent Hillary Clinton.

And speaking of Robert Mueller. Remember what this president did, he did it the day after the special counsel's testimony to Congress. Remember this? That's right. He made that infamous call to the president of Ukraine. The one that got him impeached. The one that he said was perfect but it wasn't perfect at all.

The one that the senators and Republican congressmen and the senators know wasn't perfect. But said well, you know, it wasn't a perfect call but he's learned a lesson. Every single time he gets away with it. Like he got away with this

Ukraine shake down. Because that's what it was, shake down. Then he goes further the next time. That is a lesson that this president has learned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the Republicans have said, they hope you would learn a lesson from impeachment. What lesson did you learn from impeachment?

TRUMP: That the Democrats are crooked. They've got a lot of crooked things going. That they are vicious. That they shouldn't have brought impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Projection. Crooked. Like I said, the lesson he learned is to go further the next time. He's not done yet. The president who didn't just fire Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman from his White House job last week. He fired Vindman's twin brother too.

Remember, Vindman, his brother did not testify in the impeachment inquiry. The president putting up his own version of a bat signal to the Pentagon about Vindman.

[22:10:01]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: We send him on his way to a much different location. And the military can handle him any way they want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Well, that as we are learning tonight that there may be another shoe or shoes about to drop in the Justice Department. Sources telling CNN more prosecutors have discussed resigning in the wake of the DOJ overruling the team on the Roger Stone case.

But with all of this, with this president punishing his perceived enemies, rewarding his friends, completely disrespecting the rule of law, where are the former attorney generals? Attorneys general, I should say. And DOJ officials who know exactly how bad how dangerous this is. Don't you think with need their voices now? We need your voices now.

We need more than expressions of concern. I'm so concerned. I'm so concerned. But what did you do about your concern when you had the opportunity to do something? You blew it. And now you're making excuses.

I'm talking to you, Susan Collins and others like Susan Collins. You blew it. I'm so concerned. And I call the White House.

We need more than calls. We need more than tweets. We need more than people standing in front of cameras talking about how concerned they are, how worried they are. We need people to stand up for the law, for the Constitution. For law and order in this country.

While the president's Republican defenders, his enablers are all, nothing to see here, Susan Collins who acknowledged the president behaved improperly but didn't actually vote to do anything about it, who, last week claimed the president will be much more cautious in the future. Here she is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In light of the president's actions do you think there's any lessons that he learned from being impeached?

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): I don't know which actions you're referring to. I've made very clear that I don't think anyone should be retaliated against.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Yet, there's plenty of blame to go around. But she's speaking out about it. So, there are others as well. But she went on to claim, quote, "my vote to acquit the president was not based on predicting his future behavior."

Did you guys watch the hearings? Did you hear the House impeachment folks saying one reason we're doing this is, because if we don't do it now, he's going to do it in the future. And you'll have a reckless president in the future who are doing things that are problematic.

Wasn't that part of their entire argument? But she's saying her vote wasn't because of -- it doesn't make any sense. It's an excuse. All of them. It is an excuse to hold onto power. Fear.

Let's face it, every one of us could see his future behavior coming a mile away. Come on. Lisa Murkowski. This is what she said about the whole Roger Sone mess and I quote here. She said, "The president weighs in, all of a sudden, justice comes back and says change the deal. I think most people in America would look at that and say, that just doesn't look right. And I think they're right."

Of course, they are. They sure. Mitt Romney still enshrined on the president's enemy's list. Saying, "I hope the Justice Department is independent of politics and any indication that that's the case would obviously be a real problem."

Well, Houston. Looks like we have a problem. We have a problem. Democrats Sherrod Brown may have said it best today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): It's pretty clear the President of the United States didn't learn a lesson. The lesson he can do whatever he wants, whatever he wants, he can abuse his office. He'll never ever be held accountable by this Senate. (END VIDEO CLIP)

LEMON: Shame, shame, shame on you lawmakers. With this president determined to use our government, our government to punish his enemies and reward his friends. Shredding our institutions. Are we going to break-the-glass-in-case-of emergency moment right now?

[22:15:01]

Let's discuss. Jim Baker, Laura Coates, Harry Litman after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: So, the president publicly thanking the Justice Department for intervening to recommend a more lenient sentence for his buddy Roger Stone. The long time Trump ally and felon who has been convicted of lying to Congress and witness tampering.

So, I want to discuss now. Jim Baker is here. Jim is a former FBI general counsel, Laura Coates as well, former prosecutor, and Harry Litman, the -- both -- I should say, both of you guys are former federal prosecutors. Thank you so much. I appreciate everyone for joining us.

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Thank you.

LEMON: Jim, good to see you. I don't get to see you as often as I do with Harry and Laura, so let's start with you. You left the Justice Department less than two years ago. Could you ever have imagined this and how much worse could things get?

JIM BAKER, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I certainly could imagine given everything that happened at the FBI once President Trump came into office and everything that we had to deal with, with respect to Jim Comey and all that. So, I guess this doesn't shock me really in that regard.

[22:20:06]

How worse can it get? I mean, it's pretty bad now. Because what it looks like is that the basic functioning of the Department of Justice with the respect to the prosecution of criminal cases which is the bread and butter, the heart of what the Department of Justice does, is there is clearly an effort by the president to influence those activities and that should alarm every American.

Because the Justice Department, the federal prosecutors the way they operate it's one of the most important functions that government has. And it's really been something that has set this nation apart from others for many, many years.

And for us to end up in a situation where people believe that the politics is what's making -- is what's driving criminal prosecution decisions. Decisions in cases like this is very, very troubling and should be unacceptable to every American.

LEMON: I think it's fair, Harry, to call this a power play. And you say it is cataclysmic. Why?

LITMAN: Because, I mean, I take Jim's point. And there have been all kinds of troubling conduct from Trump before. But we now have open and notorious moves by the political leader of the Department of Justice to do his bidding. To kick career prosecutors in the teeth and elevate the friends of -- elevate Trump's agenda of rewarding his friends and punishing his enemies.

This kind of root and branch effort to infect the Department of Justice itself is a new day and a dark one. And you have a crescendo of prosecutors from across party lines and time lines. All of them really, really consternated and dismayed this evening.

LEMON: Listen, Laura, I think it's -- I think you'll agree. You can correct me if I'm wrong, it is fair to wonder well, was this, you know, was this judgment too harsh. Was Roger Stone getting too much time, whatever. I think that's fair.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong. But this president is also claiming that nobody can even define what he did, meaning Roger Stone. So, I want to put it on the screen. He's found guilty of seven charges. Obstruction, lying to Congress, witness tampering. So, when prosecutors ask for seven to nine years, was that appropriate?

LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, there has been no judgment. This was a recommendation, Don. That is entitled to be made by the prosecutors but it wasn't just pulled out of thin air. It was actually appropriate based on the guidelines as they currently are written.

And it also includes the aggravating factors this person was involved in trying to interfere with witnesses, was trying to antagonize the judge. Remember, he posted a picture of the judge with crosshairs next to her after and before he imposed a gag order. You have other instances there.

So, according to the guidelines was that what was set? Yes. However, if you want to make an overarching argument about the guidelines not being right in line with what people believe a sentence should be, that's a greater discussion to have.

But in this case, those were the guidelines that were applied to this particular case and this fact pattern. So, it come behind the prosecutors who knew the case well. The people who were in pre-trial who were able to recommend what the guidelines be to the judge. And to take away the opportunity from the judge to even make a judgment on sentencing by putting the thumb on the scale.

It's the very reason why people already mistrust the criminal justice system. People have to pay for the presumption of innocence based on the bail efforts people had in this country. The idea that Lady Justice is not actually blind. And now it's not just that she's not blind, if the president is whispering or tweeting in some way, tweeting in her ear and her presence, that's enough to tell these prosecutors what you recommend doesn't matter. How about every other defendant who comes along the line and say well,

I don't know the president? And I don't have this (Inaudible). But is there some way the government is not trying to play favorites here? How could they have any credibility? That's the humiliation. That is the problem here.

And the president by the way, final point, has the pardoning power, Don. Why not wait until at that point --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: Just go to the pardon.

COATES: -- he's actually entered.

LEMON: Yes. Just go to the pardon.

COATES: Why not? Why? Because he wanted to put his thumb on the scale.

LEMON: Yes. Jim, listen. Roger Stone lied to the House counsel committee when he testified that he never discussed WikiLeaks with the Trump campaign. He did. He did discuss it. And now he is congratulating Barr for taking charge. Why? Because Stone lied to protect Trump?

BAKER: Well, it certainly looks bad. Right? The Stone offenses go to the ability of the country to administer justice in a fair truthful, complete way. And that's what those charges are all about. Obstruction, witness tampering, everything that you cited a minute ago.

And so, for, you know, the President of the United States himself who has sworn to uphold the Constitution and who, under the Constitution has an obligation to take care that the laws be faithfully executed.

[22:25:09]

He needs to make sure that that system runs well. And him putting the first thing on the scale, especially on a case where someone is convicted. Right? Not just accused but convicted of engaging in these crimes that undermine the ability of the Justice Department to administer that the Justice Department Congress the course to administer this system is just, again, it's just simply unacceptable and every American should be outraged.

LEMON: Yes. Harry, I want you to weigh in, but I got to get break in. So, stick, everyone.

LITMAN: Yes.

LEMON: Who really gave the president the green light to go after his supposed enemies and protect his convicted felon friends? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LEMON: So, it's just been one week since President Trump was acquitted by the Senate in his impeachment trial. And he clearly is emboldened. Going after people he regards as enemies and intervening in the sentencing of long-time friend Roger Stone.

[22:30:05]

Jim Baker is back, Laura Coates, Harry Litman as well. Laura, you first then Harry I promise, I'm going to get to you.

We are seeing and emboldened President Trump post acquittal. He's angry, he's vengeful, he's petty, he knows Republicans aren't going to do a thing to stop him. Right? Is that what's going on?

LAURA COATES, CNN INTERNATIONAL LEGAL ANALYST: Well, plus he realized of course that impeachment was probably one bite at the apple in one particular term. And he knows he's on the ballot in November and he also knows that he's not going to be have to fight against an obstacle like the GOP saying, you know what, whatever you're doing we're going to put you under higher scrutiny. He knows that that's not the case.

He is very emboldened. Much like somebody who has gotten away with something inappropriate would be. But unlike perhaps the last president who was impeached who was more of a -- was contrite, was apologetic, he wants to unify the nation after what it has gone through. This president has felt entitled and it he is now exacting revenge. Unfortunately, it's the institution that are paying the price.

LEMON: Yes. Harry, listen. This is your latest column from the Washington Post. And you write about the other concerning political maneuvers that we've seen since the impeachment trial related to Flynn and Giuliani and others. Can you talk to me about those?

LITMAN: I can. One quick point on Stone, Laura has it exactly right. This is by the book. It's not just the department. It was pretrial services, probation. They all said this is right sentence. You could discuss it but within the U.S. Attorney process not have the assistants say it and kick them in the teeth.

But as you say, this is also part in partial of really a flurry of behavior since the impeachment and a little bit before. You have the same turn of events with Michael Flynn. You have the Attorney General specifically receiving, give me the opposition research from Giuliani. And sending it to the department to weigh. When supposedly that was what's so wrong about the Democrats case.

You have Barr saying anything political bring it to me. Any kind of investigation which is unprecedented. And you have everything that happened with Jessie Liu, who was the U.S. Attorney for the district of Colombia until she was kicked aside in favor of a Barr acolyte.

And it's all really open and notorious. That's part of the stunning factor of it. It's, you know, done right out there with impunity and it really is -- we might have seen it from the president. But for the department to be acting this way, it's just bone chilling. LEMON: So, his considering his flagrant and disrespect for the rule

of law, Jim, if he is now able to use the DOJ to protect his friends or hurt his enemy. He can -- I mean, what's to stop him? How far can he -- how much further can he go? I guess, as far as he wants.

BAKER: Well, hopefully not. I mean, there are mechanisms. There are individuals, there are people who should be able to try to address that. I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

LEMON: But we haven't seen any of that. People try without, but then -- nothing.

BAKER: Yes. So Congress -- there are -- at least there are multiple levels, right. So, one within the Department of Justice. The inspector general I think should take a look at what in the world happened here and get some facts and understand exactly why this decision was made the way it was made. Number two, the judge. The judge is going to deal with this.

I believe its next Thursday as the actual sentencing. And so the judge, I would hope would inquire into at least getting on the record what precisely happened and hear from people who have an obligation to tell the truth. Why, you know, why was this changed, why was this memo changed? Why was this recommendation changed? And where are all these prosecutors what happened to them?

LEMON: Yes.

BAKER: And try to get to the bottom of that. Congress has to figure out how to deal with this president. And how to drag in and put in front of them people like the Attorney General and other Senate confirmed individuals who have an obligation to show up and testify and explain to the Congress and the American people and they have to figure out how to use their power more effectively. Especially including their power over the money. And appropriation, right.

And so they need to figure out how to use the tools that they have as effectively as Donald Trump uses the tools that he has. He is master at wielding the power that the constitution has given him. Whether you like how he does it not. Whether you think it's appropriate or not. He's quite effective at it and Congress needs to figure out its game. Obviously impeachment did what it did. And you can assess that one way or another. But the Congress has many other tools beyond impeachment that it needs to use more effectively.

LEMON: Harry, quickly. Because I got to run here. Sorry about that. But I hear what Jim is saying. And when he said that I saw you and Laura shaking your heads. But we -- you know, not to minimize what you said, Jim. But we heard that and then nothing happens and then Bill Barr does something to bury it. So, what gives?

LITMAN: Look, I agree. I think there will be an outcry. Barr has to testify in March. But he'll be fine. I really think if impeachment didn't do it, we're talking about the ballot box. [22:35:06]

LEMON: Thank you all. I appreciate your time. Thanks so much.

LITMAN: Thanks.

LEMON: Democrats focused on who can beat President Trump, but should they instead vote for who they think would be the best president? I'm going to ask former -- President Barack Obama's campaign manager. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LEMON: With the first two primaries down. Senator Bernie Sanders and former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg are the current front runners. But they occupy very different lanes. So, what kind of candidate do voters really want? Well, I'm glad he's here. Let's discuss now. Jim Messina, the former Obama campaign manager and former Deputy chief of staff for the Obama administration. I'm really am happy here. Thank you so much for doing this, OK?

JIM MESSINA, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN MANAGER: My pleasure.

LEMON: Are you one of the people who is concerned about the way this Democratic race is shaping up or do you think that it's just too much hand ringing at going on at this point?

[22:40:05]

MESSINA: Look. We're Democrats, we're bed wetter. Right? Where panicking is kind of what we do. And that's OK, that's understandable. But I really do believe when this process is over, we'll have a nominee who is ready to take on Donald Trump in the fall. I think going through all this will strengthen the candidate. You know, Barack Obama had to go through Reverend Wright, had to go through some very tough times. And by the time he got out of the primary we were ready for the general.

LEMON: Yes. You know, it's interesting that you bring that up, because I was thinking about that today and how much the former president had to explain or apologize or disavow people for. And I imagine if, you know, for things far less I think important or damaging than what this president says or tweets on a daily basis. It's just -- we're just in a whole different world right now. Let's talk more about Bernie Sanders. He talked to Anderson, He defended Medicare for all. Watch this and we'll discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If you look at the exit polls yesterday in New Hampshire, if my memory is correct, Medicare for all was extremely popular. And was one of the reasons that we won. I think, Anderson that the more we have an opportunity and in the general election we certainly will. To talk about a dysfunctional healthcare system in which we spent twice as much per capita as the people of any other country and yet 87 million of us are uninsured or under insured. You know what, I think people will be very support of Medicare for all and help us win the election.

LEMON: So, again, I remind the folks. You were watching President Obama's campaign manager in 2012. Is that the direction Democrats should go?

MESSINA: No. No, it's not. You know, there's an old saying in politics, if you are explaining you're losing. And you have Democrats just won a 2018 election where we put Nancy Pelosi Speaker of the House because we went on the offense on healthcare. And we talked about preexisting conditions and how Donald Trump wanted to take those away.

And instead Bernie Sanders wants to go to all government run system that will scare swing voters and scare Democrats, right? He had the biggest union in Nevada come out yesterday and whack Bernie and they haven't decide on who they are supporting, but they said that Bernie's proposal will take away healthcare that they negotiated for thousands of workers.

So, it's not just swing voters. It's not just, you know, political guys like me. Its normal Democrats saying that this proposal is the wrong thing to do and you know, it gets us off of our message and put us on the defense against Donald Trump on an issue that right now Democrats are leading on. We do want to fight about healthcare. But we don't want to fight about it in a way that puts us on the defense. And that's what's Bernie is going to do.

LEMON: Listen. Along those lines we're talking about best chance, right? Who can beat Trump? What does it say to you that the former House Speaker Paul Ryan is saying that Joe Biden is the best bet for Democrats to beat Trump? Is that -- he's saying that he believes everyone else or pretty much everyone -- the folks like Sanders, like Warren that they are too far left. That Joe Biden is the one. Is that a good perspective from the GOP side or who cares what he says about the Democratic race?

MESSINA: Who cares about what he says about the Democratic race, right? I would remind people that Paul Ryan lost his own Congressional district when he was a vice presidential candidate with Mitt Romney. So, I'm going to maybe take his advice with a little grain of salt. That said, electability is incredibly important. You saw in the exit polls last night that Democrats said the most important issue is not the economy, it's not healthcare. It's who can beat Donald Trump. And that's been true all throughout this.

And part of why you see the polls bouncing all over the place is Democrats have different answers by state on who they think is the best candidate to defeat Donald Trump. You saw last night for the first time, Mayor Pete getting a bunch of support from people who said that getting rid of Donald Trump is their most important issue. That has been kind of Joe Biden's single strength up until now. It's obviously a place where Mayor Bloomberg is going to go. Coming up in March states.

LEMON: You read my mind.

MESSINA: Right. So, we're about to have this discussion straight up.

LEMON: Yes. I've been -- I find it fascinating considering Bloomberg has not been in any of the contests that had happened so far. He's really banking on super-Tuesday. And then his support among African- Americans is rising. Because they feel for the most part -- I'm generalizing here that he has -- he's the better candidate to beat Donald Trump. It's fascinating to listen to people who are in my circle and beyond.

African-Americans who are talking about Bloomberg now. But you also mentioned the former South Bend Mayor Pete Buttigieg. Amy Klobuchar as well. They are both moderates. They did well in New Hampshire. And I want you to take a look at this, because the percentage of votes won by moderates, including Joe Biden significantly larger than progressives. Is that an accurate picture of where voters are or is it just early right now?

[22:45:03]

MESSINA: It's still very early. We have only awarded 1.6 percent of the delegates. So we need to get the nomination. Super-Tuesday is 36 percent. And you know, the problem is with Iowa and New Hampshire is just there's no minorities to speak of. And, you know, some of these candidates like Mayor Pete, like Amy are going to have to prove they can get African-American and Latino votes.

African-American votes are 25 percent of the Democratic electorate. Latinos are another 12 to 14 percent. And so, that's why I'm so excited about Nevada. We are going to see these candidates who really have to go after it and get some votes from non-white constituency that look much more like the general election and I think we'll know much more. One point on your Bloomberg point. Because I think you're right. You are seeing Bloomberg's numbers, you know, really moving with African-American voters.

But I would remind you that he has a mammoth buy right now, featuring Barack Obama and everything he ever did with Barack Obama in a TV ad. All in 30 seconds. And you know, that is going right at the heart of Joe Biden's political base.

LEMON: Yes.

MESSINA: As we go into super-Tuesday. And I think that will be one of the stories to watch is the battle for African-American votes. Because after the ball got out today, you know, there's no African-American left in the race. And there will be people fighting for that electorate that will really, really matter in South Carolina and on March 3rd.

LEMON: You're in a rundown tonight. Because that's we are going to talk about next. Thank you, Jim Messina. I appreciate your time. Come back any time, OK?

MESSINA: My pleasure. Thanks.

LEMON: Well, Joe Biden told me that he is banking on South Carolina and African-Americans supporters there to give his campaign as boost and then he followed up a fourth place finish in Iowa with a fifth place finish in New Hampshire. Will they stick with him? Or are the votes up for grabs. We'll talk about that.

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[22:50:00]

LEMON: So, it really just started two weeks ago, I mean, the official voting, right? the caucuses and the primary, but the 2020 race is not pivoting to states a lot more representative of the country's diversity like Nevada and then it goes on to South Carolina. Joe Biden heading to that state even before the New Hampshire results came in, remember?

So, let's discuss now. Leah Daughtry is here. She oversaw the Democratic national convention in 2016 and also in 2008. Also CNN Political Commentator, Bakari Sellers.

Good to see both of you.

Leah, good to have you here. Welcome to the program.

LEAH DAUGHTRY, FORMER CEO, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL CONVENTION COMMITTEES: Thank you. Glad to be here.

LEMON: Listen. Biden is all-in in South Carolina, banking or African- Americans supporters to recharge his campaign. But after two bad finishes, and do you think the black vote is up for grabs now, and also considering the polls showing that he may be losing some of that support?

DAUGHTRY: Well, you know, I think black voters are savvy and informed and pragmatic. And what we want more than anything, at least on the Democratic side, is a win. We want to get the White House back. We want to protect the House, and we want to get the Senate as well.

And when it comes to Joe Biden, I think it's a classic story. His advantage is not a lock. And what we're seeing now is the pragmatism of African-American voters who are saying, can he pull this out? Does he have what it takes to go the distance and to be the nominee that we all need in order to defeat Trump?

And I think the rise of Michael Bloomberg, although Bloomberg is not on the ballot in South Carolina, is demonstrating that black folks want the right candidate. They want to be courted. They want to be persuaded. They want to be mobilized. And so no one should take our vote for granted.

And we're moving into this new phase now of the race where you have Nevada and South Carolina and it's going to be a challenge for a few of the candidates including Pete and Amy, who right now have never cracked a single digits in the African-American community.

LEMON: Yes. That's going to be interesting. Well, let's talk a little bit more about what that shows. Bakari, for you. Let's put up the Quinnipiac poll. It shows Biden's national support among black voters has nearly halved since January. And asked him about it, he said it was an out lie. That's what he said. And that was before his 5th place finish in New Hampshire. I mean, is this one poll, South Carolina doesn't vote until February 29th. That has to look like an eternity for him, no?

BAKARI SELLERS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, yes, because campaigns take money and cost money. The fact is I think that Joe Biden recognizes, I think the campaign recognizes with all the import on South Carolina, they still have to do extremely well in Nevada.

I think if that they do well in Nevada, first, second, third, that momentum will lead into South Carolina. In South Carolina is not about Joe Biden winning. Joe Biden is going to win South Carolina. South Carolina is about margins. He needs to, in the words of Cardi B., he needs (inaudible) --

LEMON: How big he needs to win. He needs a big margin, right?

SELLERS: He needs a margin. He needs a margin. And what happens is if you do well, then that Uncle Mo, momentum, it comes in. If you do well in Nevada, you come to South Carolina, Bloomberg's disadvantage -- well, Bloomberg has a number of disadvantages. Number one disadvantage is the calendar. Because he goes from Saturday to Super Tuesday. And I think that voters throughout the south, who vote on Super Tuesday, if he wind South Carolina by a substantial margin. Well, as Leah said, be able to see the pragmatism in electing Joe Biden.

But Michael Bloomberg is also going up the rough side of the mountain. And he's now starting to actually get some scrutiny. I'm actually, and this may be a bold statement, I need African Americans who support Michael Bloomberg to explain that vote to me, because someone who has --

[22:55:00]

LEMON: Call my mama after the show. And all of her friends, all of these older African-American women.

SELLERS: I know, I know. It's about -- they believe that he can stand toe to toe. I get it.

LEMON: Yes.

SELLERS: However, once they hear, once they hear this, once they hear who he is, he's language --

LEMON: That could change. Yes.

SELLERS: That could change. That's all I'm saying.

DAUGHTRY: That's why, Don --

LEMON: Let Leah get in before we ran out of time, Bakari, if you don't mind. Go ahead.

SELLERS: Sure, sure.

DAUGHTRY: I'm looking forward to seeing Michael Bloomberg on the debate stage because up to now --

SELLERS: He ain't coming.

DAUGHTRY: -- what we know about Barack or Michael Bloomberg is, what he's told us. So, he's very wonderful ads, but it's important, I think, voters need to see him on the debate stage with the other candidates discussing his policies and positions so we can make an informed choice on Election Day.

LEMON: Yes. OK, guys. Longer conversation to be had.

SELLERS: Michael Bloomberg ain't debating. He ain't coming. Michael Bloomberg ain't coming, he ain't showing up.

DAUGHTRY: Listen. If I was advising him, I'd tell him not to come, but he needs to come if he wants to be taken seriously.

SELLERS: he ain't going nowhere.

LEMON: I don't think the president will do a debate either. I don't know if it's to his advantage to do a debate either. So, more -- to be continued. Thank you both. Leah, welcome. Thank you, please come back.

DAUGHTRY: Thank you. Of course.

LEMON: Bakari, whatever, you know, thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

The president openly congratulating Attorney General Bill Barr for intervening in the sentencing of his long-time friend convicted felon Roger Stone. Justice is not blind. She is reading the president's Twitter feed.

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