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CDC On Coronavirus: Disruption To U.S. Everyday Life "May Be Severe"; Limbaugh: Coronavirus Is The "Common Cold," Being "Weaponized" Against Trump; Sanders Fields Fire From All Rivals On Debate Stage. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 25, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
LT. GEN. JAMES CLAPPER (RET), FORMER DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: --part-time help with their post office at Christmas time. It can't be done that way.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Director Clapper, appreciate it. Thank you.
CLAPPER: Thanks, Anderson.
COOPER: Well that's it for us. The news continues though. I'll hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you very much, Anderson. I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
The Coronavirus, it's time that we deal with the realities and also what the reckoning needs to be here, OK? It's already having an effect. Look at the U.S. markets. They're in a two-day free fall.
I don't know if you've been outside at all but you see people, if any kind of community has people walking, you see all these masks. People are afraid. They don't know what to expect.
Politicians are taking each other to task. The President is pretending that he understands some science that nobody else can back up.
The least troubling part, right now, is the number of cases. Yes, we're over a dozen. But we're bringing in the experts tonight, to tell you who's had it here in this country, where it's coming from, what they're worried about.
Yes, when you listen to the experts from the CDC, they're saying it's not about "If," it's about "When." But what are the realities? We have two of the most trusted doctors in America with us tonight.
Plus, a dose of reality that could be coming in this Democratic debate tonight, it's unlike any other one we've seen.
A lot to talk about, let's get after it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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CUOMO: All right, facts first. Here's what the CDC tells us. Forget about the President and the politicians for a second, all right?
The virus that's been hitting Asia may begin spreading in the United States "At the community level." What does that mean? Beyond families, beyond spouses, from typical communication of going to the store, going to the work, being outside, disruption to everyday life "May be severe."
Now, right now, how many cases are there in the United States? 57 at most recent count. But that is a qualified number. We'll give you an expert to tell you why that number has to be broken down as well.
But the effect is real. The markets are tanking. Look, traders trade on fear. We know that. But this is being whipped up by political indecision as well. The President says he's not concerned. It's going to go away. He thinks it's going to be fine. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Coronavirus which is very well under control in our country. We have very few people with it.
The people are getting better. They're all getting better.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Look, that is, at best, incomplete and, at worst, ill-informed, and that's the part that scares the markets.
They hear the President say something like this. They know it doesn't match up with any of the data they're hearing from anywhere else. We haven't even begun to deal with it yet really. You see what happens with the markets.
Now, how is the President dealing with this? The politics is part of the infection. His new Medal of Freedom recipient, Rush Limbaugh, fresh off his Buttigieg homophobia controversy, listen to what he says as the President's surrogate today.
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RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO HOST: Looks like the Coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump.
Now, I want to tell you the truth about the Coronavirus. What? You think I'm wrong about this? You think I'm missing it by saying that's - yes, I'm dead right on this. The Coronavirus is - is the common cold, folks.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: You know who he's talking to when he says "You think I'm wrong about this?" He's probably talking to his own conscience because he knows he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about, all right? It is not the common cold.
Let's bring in the experts to discuss what is fact, and what is fugazi like Limbaugh. We have Anthony Fauci, Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, and CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Sanjay Gupta.
It's great to have you both, gentlemen, thank you, tonight.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Tony, let me start with you. In terms of preparation, we know the President just asked on Monday, we know that there's some pushback that "Boy, we should have been doing this a month ago."
In terms of what you need to have this country prepared, for what you expect to come, where are you?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Well, right now, we're pretty well prepared for what's going on right now, Chris.
We, as you mentioned, we have 14 cases in the United States that are travel-related, 12 are travel, two are spouses, the rest are individuals we actually evacuated from the Diamond Princess ship in Yokohama. So, the idea of identification, isolation, and contact tracing has been successful in the limited number of individuals we have.
The difficulty is that other countries, besides China, are now having community spread. We're seeing it in Italy. We're seeing it in Japan. We're seeing it in South Korea and Iran.
When that happens, it becomes ever more difficult to prevent infections from coming into your country. You can restrict it, for example, the way we did with China, by travel restrictions.
But once you get diffusely spread, throughout the globe, it becomes very difficult. And that's the reason why we need to be prepared for the eventuality that we will have more cases and that it might actually become community spread.
[21:05:00]
CUOMO: All right, now quick follow, and then I want to get to you, Doc, about the practical applications for what people should have in their head right now.
Is it true, Tony, that you guys were briefing CDC, HHS. This was happening over a month ago, where you were saying "It's only a matter of time, it's going to come here," and the politicians just didn't deliver a month ago.
Isn't that a fair criticism?
FAUCI: No. I - Chris, I wouldn't say they didn't deliver. We've had a pandemic preparedness plan that we really developed in - in preparation for pandemic influenza--
CUOMO: Right.
FAUCI: --that we can extrapolate to this. We certainly need more resources, and that's what you heard today with the supplemental request, because we can only go a certain way with the resources we have. I mean I was moving around resources--
CUOMO: Yes.
FAUCI: --to do the things that we needed to do.
CUOMO: Yes, but see that's the point, Tony.
FAUCI: But now, we have the requests for supplements.
CUOMO: You're moving resources around in part because there were program cuts.
And I remember when the cuts came, and I got called, not from you, on the record, not from Tony, but I got called from people in that world saying, "These are not the kind of programs to cut. You got to keep them fully funded because you never know when we're going to need them."
And that's why I just wanted to get a little context on that. I don't want to drag you into the politics. You've always been above it, and you should be.
Doc, Dr. Gupta, look, I'm very lucky to be able to rely on both of you guys to keep every level in situations like this. You see in the people walk around with the masks, you know, we're all in and out of airports right now, especially in the political season, they're all over the place.
People are stopping us and talking to us about this more than anything to do with the election. What are the realities?
GUPTA: Well I mean, look, if you - if you talk about the risk to the average person still in the United States, as things stand, it's still low. I mean, you know, Dr. Fauci just gave all the numbers. And those are still low numbers.
There's a couple concerns. One is that are there just a lot of other people out there who haven't been tested and, in fact, are carrying the virus in their bodies with few symptoms or maybe even no symptoms?
I mean, South Korea, they've tested tens of thousands of people. In the United States, we've tested hundreds of people, and there's been some problems with the testing, so that's a little bit of a concern.
The other - the other issue, and I think this is what Dr. Fauci is - is sort of alluding to, is that these - these, all these plans, and procedures, and the largest quarantine in human history that's going on in China, I think, was never designed to prevent this virus from circulating around the world. It's a little strand of RNA. It doesn't respect borders or boundaries.
When I talked to the Head of the CDC, Dr. Robert Redfield, who obviously Dr. Fauci knows well, I want you to listen to how he put this, Chris, and how he described what he thought, was going to happen here.
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DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, CDC DIRECTOR: This virus is probably with us beyond this season, or beyond this year, and I think eventually the virus will find a foothold, and we will get community-based transmission, and you can start to think of it in the sense like seasonal flu. The only difference is we don't understand this virus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Seasonal flu is one of the biggest killers in the country. It sure as heck ain't the common cold, Sanjay.
GUPTA: That - that's right.
And, you know, look, the concern is and, you know, no one should be minimizing the Coronavirus. You know, the numbers are still small here. With flu in - in the 2017-2018, 60,000 roughly, 61,000 people died of flu. The fatality ratio with flu is 0.1 percent.
With this Coronavirus, it's closer to 2 percent, depending on how you look at the numbers. If you start to get that kind of widespread, you know, issue with the Coronavirus, you can see how - how big a problem this is. This is 20 times as lethal.
So, you know, again, no one hopes that - no one is wanting that to happen, obviously, and doing everything to prevent that from happening. But that is the concern, Chris
CUOMO: All right, I want to come back to you in one second about what to do, you know, in your everyday life.
And also, Dr. Fauci, I've known you over half my life, just for the audience. That's why I slip into calling you "Tony." It's - it's always good to have you to rely on. But obviously, you're Dr. Fauci to me because who deserves more respect than you do? That rate of lethality that obviously scares people most, how much of
that is a function of available resources and healthcare in the places where it is more widespread than in the United States?
In other words, if we start getting it here, should we expect a lethality race - rate that high?
FAUCI: You know, Chris, I think we would expect something similar to that because we don't have an antiviral drug. I mean the people who are dying, who require intensive care, for
example, in an intensive care unit, maybe even intubation, for respiratory assistance and breathing, the Chinese have that. They have a pretty good system. And yet, you're still seeing the 2 percent mortality.
So, it isn't a question of "They don't have as good care as we have." So if, in fact, we do get a pandemic that does impact us in this country, I think you're going to see comparable types of morbidity and mortality.
We don't think it really is 2 percent because the denominator of that number is probably larger than we think because there are many cases that are without symptoms.
CUOMO: Right.
[21:10:00]
FAUCI: So, it's probably lower than two.
CUOMO: The cases you find out about are the most serious cases.
FAUCI: But it's still much, much here.
CUOMO: And so, those people are more likely to die.
FAUCI: Right.
CUOMO: And just to be very clear, you know, the President put out that there's going to be a vaccine any day. That's not true. And people shouldn't be worried when they hear that there's no available vaccine. It's not expected to be ready. So, there is no disappointment expected on that level.
Sanjay, now you get sick, I'm sick right now, and I'm walking through the airport, and I'm sick, and I'm using all these stupid symptomatic, you know, drugs, and people are saying, "You think it's Coronavirus?"
What should people be looking for now that it is cold and flu season?
GUPTA: Well, statistically, it is far less likely to be Coronavirus, and far more likely to be common cold or flu, I mean, exponentially more likely. I mean it can be hard to tell. The symptoms can be very similar, something that I think is interesting with Coronavirus.
And again, in the United States, I think you really - you really just don't have to worry about this right now. I mean we're going to keep reporting on this. And if there starts to be community spread, you're going to hear about it. But, right now, it's probably not going to be that.
One thing I do find interesting though is, with Coronavirus, the symptoms do tend to be more lower respiratory versus with cold and flu more upper respiratory. So, what does that mean? It means that you might have fever with both, you might have cough
with both. But if you have sore throat, if you have runny nose, those are more upper respiratory, those are more likely to be cold or flu. So, those types of symptoms can - can give you a little bit of - little bit of an idea that it's not Coronavirus.
But again, you know, 57 people in this country.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: If you have any of these symptoms, it's not. It's - it's not likely to be Coronavirus.
CUOMO: But listen, I couldn't ask for better people than you. Obviously, I'll be checking back in. And you know you both have this show as a resource to get the information out. I've been slow on this. I do not like making people worried without reason. They have enough troubles in this country already.
GUPTA: Yes, I know.
CUOMO: Dr. Anthony Fauci, thank you very much. Please keep us in the loop to make sure that you have everything you need to keep this country as healthy as possible. Sanjay, as always, you are a plus. Thank you.
GUPTA: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right, look, and I will, I promise you, I will report on it when the numbers are there, when there are things that don't seem right with the politics. But I don't want to get into this game where we start playing on the maybes rather than things that are reasonable certainties. I don't think it does us any good.
Now, we have enough real things that are happening right now to worry about like the ramifications of the concern. What's happening in the markets is this was not a good day. I don't know why the President says these things.
It was a bad day. It's two bad days in a row. And it's happening because of this, and what the markets expect to happen, next. The realities of election year economics are playing out right now. Numbers that you need to know, next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: Trump's top Economic Adviser is Larry Kudlow. He is offering a two-fold message for America on the Coronavirus. He says it's, quote, very contained, that's true-ish because it hasn't really come here yet, and there likely won't be, what he calls, "Economic tragedy" as a result.
We are about to argue that is demonstrably false. Let's get insight on that front, three questions with Catherine Rampell.
Good to have you.
CATHERINE RAMPELL, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR, WASHINGTON POST OPINION COLUMNIST: Good to be here.
CUOMO: Now, even if the Coronavirus is not here in earnest, it is already affecting our markets, true?
RAMPELL: Yes. Well certainly we've seen the last two days, markets fall 3 percent or more each day.
CUOMO: And when we look at it, we're basically looking at about five different levels of potential disruption. We see what the obvious thing is with stocks. But the reason they're macroeconomic concerns, if we detail them, supply chains, why does that matter?
RAMPELL: Basically, it's now global economy, and the stuff that gets sold in the United States, and even the stuff that is manufactured in the United States, relies on things that are purchased abroad, including in China.
China, remember, now represents something like 16 percent of global GDP. Major ingredients into - that go into prescription drugs that are made and sold in the United States come from China. Auto parts, that are critical to U.S. auto manufacturers, they come from China.
So, all of those kinds of disruptions in the supply chain can affect American companies, American businesses, American consumers here.
CUOMO: Right. So, to follow Catherine's thinking there, just put up that graphic again quickly, Vaughn, disrupted manufacturing, as she says, you're going to have reduced travel, right, obviously, lack of confidence in political leadership, we're seeing that play out, as we do almost every day. Failing commodity prices, you'll see that as a domino effect of this.
And again, how deep, how long, those are variables. But it's going to affect even if it isn't affecting us directly. That takes us to the next point. Confidence, OK?
RAMPELL: Yes.
CUOMO: The markets love trading on fear, OK? So, this has given them a sense of anxiety, which is literally fear without focus. They don't have a reason to be that scared in the American system of healthcare right now with these. But they're going to do that anyway.
So, when you look at that, and you mix it with the political climate, what do you see?
RAMPELL: I think that markets are starting to realize that we may not have as little risk exposure as they had been expecting, right? A number of the estimates for how many people have gotten sick in China, and elsewhere, have been revised upward.
For example, you've seen companies like Apple come out, although that happened a couple of weeks ago, where they - where they have said basically, "We face supply chain disruptions. We don't know how that's going to affect the rest of our business." But there's also this element of political leadership.
If Americans do not have confidence in their public officials to adequately handle a potential outbreak, that can lead people to basically assume the worst, which is why I think it is completely unhelpful for Trump to tweet demonstrably false things like "Hey, I looked at the markets, and they look good to me," which is what he said yesterday.
I think it's unhelpful for Larry Kudlow to go on TV, and say things like "We've seen no supply disruptions," which is what he said today, when in fact, again, two weeks ago, Apple said that they had seen supply disruptions.
CUOMO: They had to adjust their earnings report--
RAMPELL: Right.
CUOMO: --based on not getting the flow that they thought.
RAMPELL: And - and not just Apple, right? There are lots and lots of businesses that have said that they are at risk.
So, at the point that you have American officials going on TV, and saying things that are obviously wrong, that can lead the public to think "Hmm! Maybe when they tell us don't panic, I should panic."
Austan Goolsbee, who's an Economist at U-Chicago, he had been an Adviser in the Obama Administration, he has a useful rule of thumb that he has tweeted out several times recently, which is essentially that if you lose your credibility, the statements that you make can start to mean the opposite of what you intend them to.
CUOMO: Well and they have Trump saying "Don't worry. There's going to be a vaccine like around the corner."
RAMPELL: Right.
CUOMO: The most optimistic estimates put it a year away. Those things aren't just, you know, made up in an instant. You have to test them. You got to figure it out.
[21:20:00] Quickly, the idea of what this means for stocks because to the extent that any of you are 401(k)-sensitive, you see a 1,000 points go, you see another 900 points go. How big chunks in a market that's this inflated can people expect to see?
RAMPELL: If I knew the answer to that--
CUOMO: You wouldn't be sitting right here, OK.
RAMPELL: --I would be a much richer woman. So, I don't know. I think it really depends on what the trajectory--
CUOMO: But the 1,000 points dropping today, five years ago, we would have been like "Oh, my God, 1,000 points!" It would have been all these breakers in effect. It's different now. Contextually, how big a deal is this?
RAMPELL: Well we've wiped out all of the gains that we've seen so far this year, in this - in the market. We could see further declines, I don't know.
You might see a reversal, right, if - if suddenly there's a resurgence in confidence, if in fact we have a miracle vaccine that's invented like that, as Trump seems to think we will, but the CDC or the NIH and others have said otherwise, maybe you'll see a turnaround or maybe as, let's say, we move into spring and - and the climate gets warmer or the - or weather gets warmer rather, then you'll see, you know, less transmission of this virus.
We just don't know at this point. We just have to watch and - and see how much disruption we get in China, in Italy, in other countries that have been quarantining people, and shutting down factories.
CUOMO: Right. But make no mistake even though it's not here, in earnest, we're already feeling the effects--
RAMPELL: Right.
CUOMO: --economically. And our politics may dictate more of that to come. Catherine Rampell, thank you very much. I appreciate it.
RAMPELL: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right, so, look, it's real. And the politics, in our current climate, tend to add to any kind of malady we have. For example, should there be someone overseeing the Coronavirus situation? What's going on at the CDC?
There are some facts about how much money was asked for, when, where they want it to come from, what's happened to cuts in programs that we need right now? That are part of the political mix, and they demand testing, next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME. (END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:25:00]
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: All right, the politics with Coronavirus matter a lot, mostly on the funding level, and that's what I want to talk to one of his defenders about.
But just to get the politics out of the way, the President saying that Coronavirus is no big deal, and the CDC disagreeing, it's not a good thing. Look, I hope the President is right. Obviously, he doesn't know what they know.
Him saying that the markets are strong, when they dumped for two days, that's obviously not true.
Him being upset that the CDC is giving you information about symptoms is political malpractice. His job is to make sure you are OK, not his election is OK. That's not supposed to be his sole focus.
Republican Markwayne Mullin is here.
Congressman, it's good to see you. I want to give the President the benefit of the doubt--
REP. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): Good to see you, Chris.
CUOMO: --on something politically here. I may have been--
MULLIN: Sure.
CUOMO: --I may have been unfair. I want to read a quote about what he said that is being taken out of context. I may have done the same thing.
"There's a very good chance you're not going to die with Coronavirus." And God willing, I hope he's right. "You are talking about 1 or 2 percent." Now, that's very high. It's higher than we deal with the common flu, and we know that that's a big killer in this country.
"But in the other case, it was a virtual 100 percent." Now, I believe he was talking about Ebola there, and it wasn't a 100 percent. It was somewhere in the 50s, very scary, but not a 100 percent.
"Now, they've studied it."
MULLIN: Right. Right. CUOMO: "They know very much. In fact, we are very close to a vaccine." I think he meant with Ebola, not with Coronavirus, and I think I took it out of context and--
MULLIN: Oh, I - I would agree.
CUOMO: No. I know. You're not saying it.
MULLIN: Sure.
CUOMO: But I said he was talking about Coronavirus. I don't think he was. Looking at this, with the team, I think he meant Ebola.
MULLIN: No, I don't think he was either, right.
CUOMO: I want to be fair. Let's put that to the side. What I want to talk to you about is the responsibility of funding.
MULLIN: Right.
CUOMO: He's asked for $2.5 billion as of Monday. The briefings were over a month ago. Why wait?
MULLIN: Well I think the President's job is to do two things. One is to make sure he doesn't create panic inside the United States. I think that's why the President is saying what he's saying about.
Basically, the markets are strong. The markets are strong. But, as you said earlier on the show, they trade on fear. They love fear. You can't control that. But the President can calm that down.
He's calming people's nerves by not overreacting. And he studied this thoroughly. I think the CDC and Administration has done a really good job at getting a grasp on this before they come to Congress, and overreact.
And what you see, right now, with the President ask - asking for $1.25 billion, which will be a total, by taking it out of other areas, will be a total of $2.5 billion, to combat it, you're seeing the President make a methodical and a good educated guess because it is still a guess, but it's an educated guess towards what they're going to need to combat this.
CUOMO: Well, question, let's deal with the number. You did a very generous account there of breaking it down. It is $1.25 billion in direct money. And the rest is cuts.
MULLIN: Right.
CUOMO: Why do it that way? Why cut such--
MULLIN: Yes. Well it's not cuts.
CUOMO: --essential programs like Head Start?
MULLIN: It's taking it from other areas. CUOMO: Yes, but that's a cut, right? You're going to cut it from one place--
MULLIN: Well it's - it's not. It's taken--
CUOMO: --to give it to another.
MULLIN: No. It's taking money that we've appropriated to the CDC for other things.
For instance, the Ebola, we're taking $538 million, I think it's $538 million, give or take a couple million, I know that sounds crazy, but that's - I think it's $538 million - $538 million from the Ebola account that we had money set aside, money that's not being used.
CUOMO: That's fine. But one of the other program--
MULLIN: The CDC has a lot of money that Congress has--
[21:30:00]
CUOMO: But one of the programs is Head Start. Head Start, they need every dollar they can get.
MULLIN: Well--
CUOMO: Why take money from that?
MULLIN: Well I don't know the direct funding that the Head Start's money is coming from because the Head Start also has different accounts. The - the crazy way the government works is that we put money in silos.
CUOMO: Right.
MULLIN: And it doesn't work like a business where you can just take money and move it from here to here. So, they're in different silo accounts. And they didn't specify which account it's taken out of.
So, it may be taken out of a - out of a building fund for - for Head Start that they haven't used, or for a project that was - that was funded 10 years ago, and the project never took off, but the money is still sitting there. You see the same thing happen with the DoD.
So, they didn't get specifics in that, Chris. And so, I don't know exactly. If you use Head Start as a general talking point, yes that sounds bad. I don't think it's the President's intention to cut Head Start funding.
I think what it is, is he's taking unused money, and instead of just asking Congress for new money, he's looking at unused money that hasn't been used, that's sitting there in an account that is untouched, and he's saying "Hey, why don't we just use that money and shift it over?"
And I think it's - I think it's a good move for the President. CUOMO: I think if that's all it is, look, we'll learn.
MULLIN: I think he's being very thoughtful--
CUOMO: You can't hide anything with the--
MULLIN: --toward the taxpayers.
CUOMO: You can't hide anything with the CBO. We'll find out what they did and how they did it. We'll talk about it when we have all the facts.
MULLIN: Correct.
CUOMO: But a little bit of this is getting caught short with making cuts. And one of the problems with making cuts is you never know how it's going to affect you until you get to the next cycle. George W. Bush had a program--
MULLIN: That's right.
CUOMO: --about emerging disease threat that was shut down. On February 11th--
MULLIN: Yes.
CUOMO: --during the outbreak, the President proposed huge cuts to the CDC and the NIH, and that they pulled 39 of the 49 agencies out of low income countries where they worked to stop the spread of disease like this. It may have seemed like a good idea at that time.
MULLIN: Right.
CUOMO: But now, you don't have what you need where you need it.
MULLIN: You - you are always judging the taxpayer dollars. We're responsible for the taxpayer dollars. And we want to spend them in the most responsible manner as possible. And I think the President is doing the same.
And when any President makes the decision, regardless if it's Bush, or if it's Obama, or if it's Trump, they're all making the decision based on the information that they're receiving.
Now, any agency head is going to defend their agency, why they need more money.
CUOMO: True.
MULLIN: But it's the - it's the - it's our CEO, it's the Executive, it's our - it's our President that ultimately has to make that decision on what he's going to ask Congress for, and where he's going to use that money at.
And it's like any business owner, when in business, and in my companies, when I decide to use money here, and - and I decide I'm going to invest in this area, but then all the sudden, we have a catastrophe, and a job goes bad, and I need to put money over there, listen, I just - I just shot myself in my own foot, and I've got to go back--
CUOMO: That's fine.
MULLIN: --and reassess what I was planning on doing.
CUOMO: And that's fine. That's about dollars.
MULLIN: That's the same thing the President is doing.
CUOMO: That's about dollars.
MULLIN: Yes.
CUOMO: Translates into policy on the government level. And then there's another concern that is the politics of the situation. You could be right. It could be that--
MULLIN: Right.
CUOMO: --he doesn't want to spread panic. Now, let's both be honest. That has not been his way. This President exaggerates problems for effect on a regular basis.
When he wanted money for the wall, and needed to create political need for the wall, he exaggerated problems that I know for a fact were grossly exaggerated, watching them happen in real time.
MULLIN: Well--
CUOMO: Now, the concern is the reverse, Congressman, that he's saying "Coronavirus, no big deal, don't worry," he doesn't know what he's talking about. "The markets are great, don't worry, they're not going to be affected by this."
MULLIN: Well--
CUOMO: They are being affected by this. He's giving a message that I think is good for him politically.
MULLIN: Chris?
CUOMO: Bad for the country.
MULLIN: You know, you can make a political decision on anything you decide to do.
You - we can sit here and debate the wall, and the importance of it. I - I won't agree that the - that building the wall is very important for national security issues. And I don't think the President has outlined.
That's a different opinion on you because we make decisions based on two things, the way we were raised and our life experiences. The President, I do believe, is making a decision trying to keep the -
the markets calm and trying to keep people calm too. We've lost more - a lot more people to the flu this season than--
CUOMO: Absolutely.
MULLIN: --we had to Coronavirus.
CUOMO: Absolutely.
MULLIN: However, we don't understand the Coronavirus.
CUOMO: Right.
MULLIN: And - and we are, by the CDC's own record, saying that we're 12 to 18 months away from having a vaccination for it.
CUOMO: Yes.
MULLIN: We start clinical trials coming this April. So, the President is doing the best he can not to spread the fear. Now, if I'm in China, I'd be scared to death.
But, right now, what you're seeing inside the United States are, you know, the Coronavirus that has come into the United States, 36 came off the cruise ship. You have 12 that had traveled abroad. You had three that - that came in from - from China, and you've had two, only two cases--
CUOMO: We have not had a lot of cases.
MULLIN: --that's been played person-to-person here inside the United States.
CUOMO: Let's hope it stays like that.
MULLIN: Right.
CUOMO: They don't expect it too. But hopefully, they're prepared. What I'm saying is you don't want to play politics with this kind of stuff because, you know, pandemics--
MULLIN: You don't, absolutely no.
CUOMO: --can be very scary. And I'm not saying you're doing it.
MULLIN: However--
CUOMO: But he had his buddy, Limbaugh out there--
MULLIN: Yes.
CUOMO: --saying this is just the common cold. We both know it's not just the common cold. That's why I wanted to get your perspective on the funding.
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MULLIN: It's more serious than that.
CUOMO: And I wanted to get your perspective on the priority. And I'm happy to see that your priorities are in the right place. Congressman Markwayne Mullin, we can talk politics all day. But this is about people and health and getting it right.
MULLIN: Yes, Sir.
CUOMO: So, thank you for being here.
MULLIN: That's right.
CUOMO: All right, now--
MULLIN: Chris, thanks for having me on.
CUOMO: Always.
MULLIN: It's always a pleasure.
CUOMO: Always a pleasure. Always a good time to have on Markwayne Mullin. And I wish him a happy early Lent.
You know, today is Fat Tuesday, a week from Super Tuesday. I know you should never, God forbid, you mix religion and politics. But it's an interesting day for it to be Fat Tuesday with the debate that they've been having tonight on our watch.
The Democrats are going at each other like I have never seen before. Why? Because Bernie Sanders is breaking away. He's living the phattest, P-H-A-T, on Fat Tuesday. What is it going to look like this weekend? At what point is Bernie going to be too big?
The Wizard of Odds with the numbers, next.
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CUOMO: There's a debate going on right now. You see Norah O'Donnell and Gayle, so they're holding onto the reins of these Democrats that are running for the finish line. There is no controlling them. Why? Bernie Sanders is the frontrunner, and they are all out to get him.
The field is crowded and crazed.
Now, what is the reality of Bernie Sanders? There are ways of looking at it, not through the lens of what you see on a debate stage, the numbers, hence, The Wizard of Odds.
Good to see you, brother, as always.
HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER & ANALYST: Shalom!
CUOMO: So, let's start--
ENTEN: You want to hit the button? Go ahead.
CUOMO: I'm going to hit the button. There you go. So, here's the state of play.
ENTEN: Yes.
CUOMO: OK? Now, why does he have a seven in 10 chance, a 70 percent chance, only 30 percent chance he doesn't, after just a few contests.
ENTEN: Right. So, essentially what we know over time is I went back and looked at essentially how the national polls projected out to how the final votes came out. And, of course, on the Democratic side it's very key. We have proportional allocation, right?
CUOMO: Right.
ENTEN: So, basically, you get the percentage of delegates as the percentage of vote, as long as you're above 50 percent.
And given his large lead right now, and given how much he's gone up in the polls, essentially that calculation leads to this that he has a seven in 10 shot of winning the most amount of delegates going into Milwaukee.
Now, of course, there could be a contested Convention, so maybe he has a plurality, and fall short of the 50 percent plus one. But overall, it's very clear that he is the favorite to win the most amount of delegates.
CUOMO: And in no coincidence, one of the only positions I've ever seen him change quickly is in 2016, he said, "Well I don't know that a plurality is enough. You should go into the Convention and talk about it," when he was close with Hillary Clinton. Now, he says--
ENTEN: What a surprise, right?
CUOMO: --a plurality is enough. But here's what we haven't seen, OK? South Carolina is such a huge test for two reasons. One, you got the diversity argument.
ENTEN: Absolutely. CUOMO: But, as I just said, Norah O'Donnell and Gayle King, two of the best, are holding the reins like this because the Democrats are all over Sanders, and one another. He's never been attacked like this.
ENTEN: No.
CUOMO: That could make a difference. So, give me this - the set of numbers here in the context of these voters in South Carolina in their home state are watching him get beat up in a way they never have.
ENTEN: Right. Absolutely true. And the key thing about South Carolina, why this can perhaps turn this race around is look who the leader is in South Carolina?
It's Joe Biden who's actually leading in my average of polling with 30 percent. Sanders is back at 23 percent. This is an interesting number, Steyer at 13 percent, sort of much higher than he is nationally.
But I think this is rather key. If there's a place to stop Bernie Sanders, it is South Carolina. You have to stop him in South Carolina.
CUOMO: Why?
ENTEN: Why do you have to stop him in South Carolina? Because if you don't stop him in South Carolina, then essentially what you're going to see, obviously on Super Tuesday, right, you have 34 percent of the delegates are awarded on Super Tuesday.
Given what we know about Sanders' lead in the national polls right now, if you do not stop him in South Carolina, that essentially means he is going to carry through that momentum to Super Tuesday.
CUOMO: So, winning matters. You know, one of the tried but true statements in politics, when you get wins, it builds momentum. It changes media narratives. So, this number, 30 percent, 23 percent, OK, in the context of stopping him, what does the race have to look like for him to seem stopped in South Carolina?
ENTEN: Well, I think - look, Joe Biden needs to win. I mean, that's the bottom line. He needs to win. He probably--
CUOMO: But what if he wins by three?
ENTEN: It's - it's really about media expectations, I got to be honest with you. It's about the way that the media plays it.
Is a three-point win going to be enough for the media to say "Oh, my God, Joe Biden is back," I'll show you an example of a time in which, in fact, South Carolina did change the race and why I'm so interested in it.
Look at this. Back in 2008, before Obama wins South Carolina, look at the national polls, Clinton, 42, Obama 33. After Obama wins South Carolina, look at that that switch. If we get that same type of switch this year, it could, in fact, change the entire dynamic of the primary. CUOMO: This is an interesting analog. We'll see how it plays on in just a couple of days. Thank you always, Wiz.
ENTEN: Shalom!
CUOMO: All right, Harry Enten, always a plus. That's why we call him "The Wiz."
Now, for more on this strategy behind the booming Sanders' campaign, what are its strengths and what are the emerging perceived witnesses? You know who needs to take on that challenge? This guy, Congressman Ro Khanna, next.
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CUOMO: Big lesson out of 2016 is that Donald Trump wasn't just the right man for the right moment, but for the right movement. Don't sleep on a movement.
Bernie Sanders is the only Democrat with a real movement behind him. So, why are Democrats so worried about him? Congressman Ro Khanna, a Sanders' Campaign Co-Chair joins me now.
Welcome back to PRIME TIME, Congressman, as always.
On the debate stage, yes, a little bit of it is the smell of desperation, but they are putting a beatdown on Bernie, if they can, but they're all in unison. "You're too extreme. You're too scary. You got the problem right but your solutions are going to destroy us."
Why so worried?
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): You know, Bernie Sanders has been hearing this for 40 years. That's why he's not fazed by any of the attacks. He's used to being the outsider. He's used to being attacked.
But the reality is he is the one who is talking about improving people's lives. It's not rocket science why he's doing well. He is saying "I am going to get rid of the student loans. I am going to give you healthcare. I am going to give you a pay raise. I am going to make sure you can go - your kids can go to college."
And that's why he's winning. He's actually talking about making people's lives better.
CUOMO: All right, so let's do this in three steps, plus, minus, and then a political problem.
The plus, like the song from "The Producers," what's he got that they ain't got?
KHANNA: He's got a movement, as you pointed out. He's got real people, on the ground, who are willing to knock on doors, who are willing to call their neighbors, and this makes a big difference in Super Tuesday.
You don't have enough money, unless you're Michael Bloomberg, to hire staff. And so, he actually has organic people organizing in the biggest states. And it's probably his biggest advantage tactically.
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CUOMO: So, Ro Khanna, Oversight Committee, Armed Services Committee, Budget Committee. I only spent like 15 minutes, but went back trying to get records of you talking.
You are very budget-conscious. Obviously, you wouldn't be on the Budget Committee. Bernie Sanders is nowhere close to paying for any of his promises. And he is nowhere close to compromising on any of the things he wants to get done.
How does that work out in politics?
KHANNA: Well he has a vision of where he wants to go. But he has proposed tax increases on the rich. He's proposed tax increases on corporations. He's proposed strategic cuts on defense, and he's proposed cuts on these foreign wars that would save trillions of dollars. So, I think--
CUOMO: Still doesn't get him close.
KHANNA: --he is at - well it depends on what - what you're looking at. I mean I--
CUOMO: Math.
KHANNA: --I think we have to look at Medicare-for-All - well if you look at Medicare-for-All, he's got a plan to pay for that. I mean, it's - it's been--
CUOMO: Not for all of it.
KHANNA: --proven by--
CUOMO: Because he uses the Lancet Study now.
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CUOMO: He uses the Lancet Study now, you know, the Yale study that shows they'll be spending. KHANNA: Yes.
CUOMO: Now, one-to-one, as you know, Ro, as a politician, people roll their eyes when they hear about fraud and waste being something that's going to be taken out that will make it better because government, to most people, does mean fraud and waste.
But the piece of paper he gave me last night, it gets him about half way there. How do you get the rest of the half when the numbers are in the trillion?
KHANNA: Well I don't think so. Look, even - even the MIT Economist, Simon Johnson, and others who've crunched the numbers say you can get there by raising taxes on the rich, by having a tax on - payroll tax on employers.
I mean, you don't have to take my word for it. Look at the MIT economists, look at the Harvard economists. There's a way to pay for it with a payroll tax and a tax on--
CUOMO: There is. But there's just a lot of other spending that, you know, even when you take care of Medicare-for-All, there's another $25 trillion or $30 trillion in spending, you know, you're going to have to pay for, and are you worried that there's a political cost?
KHANNA: I don't think there's the cost of saying we're going to get out of bad wars, we're not going to have these huge military increases.
Let me give you a concrete example. In the debate tonight, Bloomberg basically said, "I endorse Trump's military budget increases." That's a $120 billion. You know what we could do with that $120 billion?
We could pay for free public college for every person in this country, school lunch, and improved Medicare, which includes hearing aids. So, there are ways to pay for these things, making choices.
CUOMO: Yes. But, you know, look, there's a political cost to the earlier question because God forbid something happens, and the military says we weren't prepared. But now, here's the new boogeyman that you guys are going to have to deal with.
"It's not just his ideas. It's his style," say Democrats. This is not coming out of my mouth. As you know, I have a long relationship with the Senator.
KHANNA: Yes.
CUOMO: He's an equal opposite Trump. He hates the media. He will not work with anybody and he will beat down his opponents. He's rigidly inflexible. He doesn't do criminal things, arguably.
Nobody's painting him with the Trump brush that way. But he's just as inflexible as Trump. Response?
KHANNA: No, Chris, you know that's not true. You have spent time with him.
CUOMO: I am biased on this. But this is what his--
KHANNA: And it's not only due to his (ph) charming. He's got a sense of humor.
CUOMO: This is what the people running against him are saying.
KHANNA: Well that's just not credible. It's not credible to compare any of the Democratic candidates to Donald Trump. I mean they all would respect the rule of law.
Bernie Sanders has done numerous media interviews. He's very accessible. He has a point of view. He has the courage of his convictions. But he is certainly open to intellectual dissent.
I myself, as a Co-Chair, have departed with him on six or seven issues. I've gone on TV and said "I disagree with Bernie Sanders." And you know--
CUOMO: All right.
KHANNA: --I get all these frantic emails from his staff. But he's fine with it.
CUOMO: Ro Khanna, I appreciate you making the case. You're always welcome here to do so. Good luck going forward.
KHANNA: I appreciate it. And you're always very fair to him. I appreciate that.
CUOMO: Thank you.
Big night in the race, last debate before Super Tuesday, and, whoo, is Sanders taking it? Bloomberg too! We're going to catch you up on the highlights, next.
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CUOMO: Listen. There's been no debate that matters like the one tonight for the Democrats. We have been monitoring it down in South Carolina because, look, if
the game doesn't change in South Carolina with all the talk about diversity and the bigger field, you have Super Tuesday right after it, that's it, especially for Bernie Sanders.
So, I have Hilary Rosen here right now. And I felt for Norah O'Donnell and Gayle King. Of course, it's not about us. But two moderators against all those desperate Democrats--
HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Right.
CUOMO: --very tough for them to control it. That's the sign of desperation. Who rose? Who fell?
ROSEN: I have to say I though they, actually Gayle and Norah, did a pretty good job.
So, right out of the gate, you saw Bloomberg and Warren, both go after Bernie. And I think that that was what people came into this debate to do, was to sort of knock him off of his game.
Bloomberg did it with the Trump attack, by saying, "You know, Russia is trying to get you to be the opponent of Donald Trump because they want Donald Trump to be President." Bernie didn't really respond to that.
Then, Warren said what I think, over the course of the next few weeks, is going to be a more important criticism for her. She said, "I agree with Bernie on policy. He just can't get things done and I can."
CUOMO: All right, so let me ask you about that in two pieces. One, she moved away from positions--
ROSEN: Yes.
CUOMO: --that she used to hold, always a little dicey, especially within your Party. The second one is what has she gotten done? So, how does that work for her and as a plus-minus?
ROSEN: Well I'm - I'm not sure what you mean she moved away from her positions.
CUOMO: She had more - she was much more Bernie-like in terms of her policy positions. She started to move away from them.
ROSEN: I'm not - well I think she hasn't moved away.
I think when she got confronted on Medicare-for-All, and what it would cost, she said, and how it would work, she said, "Look, we're going to have a transition period. And it's going to cost money. And we're going to have to figure that out," which, by the way, is actual truth.
CUOMO: True. But there was the middle-class talks, the tax built in--
ROSEN: Bernie has gotten away with kind of not really talking about it. CUOMO: --she moved away from it.
ROSEN: So--
CUOMO: That's all I'm saying.
ROSEN: Yes.
CUOMO: Bernie never changes.
ROSEN: Bernie never changes. But I think she - she called him on that a bit tonight. And I think that what she was saying was like with the Consumer Finance Protection Board with the legislation, she actually has been more of a legislator--
CUOMO: Right.
ROSEN: --than Bernie has been.
CUOMO: I mean, Klobuchar came up and said--
ROSEN: She's been more in the mix.
CUOMO: --when you measure Senators, I'm in the top part.
