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Cuomo Prime Time
Whistleblower Says U.S. Workers Without Proper Protective Gear Or Training Helped Coronavirus Evacuees; Coronavirus Fears Drive Dow To Worst Point Drop Ever; Friedman To Democrats: Form A Team Of Rivals To Defeat Trump. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired February 27, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: And whenever he could, which was a lot, he'd take them and their friends to get ice cream, he'd go fishing, he laughed a lot too.
Danny's name will be added to a Memorial Wall at their firehouse. He'll be buried next to his brother, Tommy. Two brothers who devoted their lives to protecting the city that they loved, two brothers reunited once again, two brothers together forever.
The news continues. I want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: Anderson, beautifully handled. What an appropriate tribute? And you know what? Tonight, by extension, one of the lessons that we learned from back then of those heroes was what?
At the time, they were told, "You'll be fine. You do the work down there. It's going to be fine. The air quality is fine." And all these years later, we're still learning about the battles that were fought and lost in those days in the immediate aftermath.
The information matters. People like those first responders they deserve to know what the realities are in the world around them. And here we are once again dealing with the fear of the unknown. But that was a beautiful way as a tribute to a hero. Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
And again, let's learn the lesson. Let's start tracking down some big questions surrounding what we do and don't know about how the Coronavirus is being handled here or mishandled.
When Trump promises "We've got it covered" that's good to hear. And it makes it disturbing to hear news of a whistleblower warning that we don't have it covered, that there are failures to protect our own employees.
Now we have a question. Is there a potential link to that whistleblower claim and the first confirmed case in California? And another question in California, why are there more than 8,000
people in that State being monitored? Why don't they know whether or not they have this virus or not? Why are so many others across this country not being tested?
The virus is not that scary. It's the unknown. So, what do you say? Let's get after it.
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CUOMO: All right, let's bring in Dr. Gupta.
Sanjay, it's always good to have you. We teamed up to try to get to the bottom of some of these questions because the unknown spreads panic faster than any virus can.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
CUOMO: And we have questions about the President's plan to deal with this. CNN has not independently reviewed this whistleblower complaint. But here is the part that's interesting to me. I want to see if you agree with this.
So, Solano County, California, is not 5,000 people, but it's not 5 million. It's about 400,000 people in Solano County, California. Some of them are dispatched as healthcare workers to bases in the country to deal with people that were repatriated from other parts of the world who might have the virus.
Now we hear about the first community-based, the 15th case in California, a woman, also in Solano County. She has no connection to the work, to the base, or anyone who was repatriated. But isn't that what community contact is about?
GUPTA: OK.
CUOMO: The workers, some of them are from Solano County. Is that a potential link here to look at?
GUPTA: That - that is a potential link to look at. And it's, to your point, Chris, we - we don't know.
The reason this is so significant, as - as people may have sort of realized by now, is that up until this point, up until this patient, this 15 patient, everyone you could sort of account for, as you made the point, Chris, that either because of travel or because of known contact with someone who's infected.
Now, someone is walking around, hasn't been to one of these areas, hasn't come in contact with anybody, who's known to be infected, gets the infection. That basically means, at some point, the virus sort of got out into the community. It means most likely that in addition to this 15th patient, there -
that patient got it from someone else, and that someone else may not have any symptoms, or minimal symptoms, never gets tested. That's sort of what it means now that this thing is in the community. That's a significant - that's a significant thing.
But we don't know. To your question, it's close to that Air Force base. Could it have been one of these workers? Could it have been a family member of--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --one of these workers? They're going to - they're going to - they're - they're good at this part of things, Chris, from a contact tracing standpoint.
You go back, you look at this person's life, and you try and piece together their life over several days, to figure out who were all the people they came in contact with, and usually you're trying to figure out who they may have infected.
In this case, they're all trying to - they're also trying to figure out who may have infected that person. So, it's a real sort of medical who done it at this point.
CUOMO: Now, here's the part that shouldn't be a mystery that is, and this is why I asked Sanjay to help out this morning.
I start getting phone calls, just like you do, of people saying "We can't test. They're not letting us test. The test doesn't work. We have to delay." And then Newsom comes out in California and says we're monitoring--
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --8,400 people.
There's no reason to monitor anybody. You test. You see if you have Influenza A, or whatever they call it, Coronavirus or not, that's not happening here. What do we know about why people aren't being tested in the richest country in the world?
GUPTA: Let me - let me - there's a couple of thoughts, and then I've done some digging today, Chris, after we talked about it this morning. But let me just give you a little bit of context because I think this is important.
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In - in South Korea, they're doing about 5,000 tests a day, OK, a day. In the several weeks that we've been testing in this country, it's probably down about a 1000 tests total.
So, there's a huge disparity, I think, to your point. And surveillance is one of the primary pillars of public health. You got to know what you're dealing with in order to deal with it. And so, the testing becomes really important.
Now, to be fair, sometimes, people who don't have symptoms, even if they are carrying the virus, are less likely to come back positive. Why? Because the symptom - you get symptoms as the viral load in your body increases. That's what makes you sick.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: But also makes it more likely for you to have a positive test. So, you know, do you get false negative tests, if you're testing too often? That's true. But I think a case can be made that we were not testing enough.
You know, there were people who were very concerned. They may not have been in China. But they may have been in other places like Korea, or Italy, places where we know the virus has been spreading, they get sick, and not only were they not getting tested, they were asking to get tested, and they were told they couldn't get tested.
So, that is a problem that I think now people at the highest levels of our public health system are - are trying to adjust.
CUOMO: What is the good reason that you say "Sorry, I know that you're presenting in a way that it might be, and I know you want to be tested, but you can't."
GUPTA: Well that's a - that's a good question. I will tell you that there were some problems with the tests initially, as you will remember, Chris.
The goal was we want to get these tests out to all PoC locations, Point-of-Care locations. But they found that some of these tests ended up being flawed. The control didn't work. They couldn't be confident in the testing.
And I don't know which led which. Was it because the test - some of the testing were flawed? They sort of dialed it back, and said "You know what? We don't need to test all these people"--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --"after all."
Or was it more "Hey look, we want to - to just make sure that we're not going to get - run into a situation of a lot of false negatives," you know things that because people are healthy or not having much in the way of symptoms, they come back negative, and that gives a false sense of comfort?
I don't know. But I can tell you this that that's not the way it's been done in many other countries around the world.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: Most other countries around the world have erred on the side of more testing. We seem to have erred so far on the side of less testing. That may change now, Chris, in part because, you know, people are talking about it, like us.
But also, this 15th patient, now evidence that this thing is in the community, and we've got to start - start to broaden the - the approach here in terms of who we're looking at because we clearly - that one would have been missed otherwise.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: Who else is out there? How do we find those people?
CUOMO: I mean it just doesn't make - look, I mean, you're the Doctor. But I keep talking to clinicians, and they say "It doesn't make sense to not test" because what's scary is the unknown. The boogeyman is the "How bad can it be." Someone like Newsom would rather say "I have 8,400 confirmed cases."
GUPTA: That's right.
CUOMO: And every week say how many are going back home, and it starts to give you comfort that "OK, this is just like the flu." You get sick. Most of us make it through. If you're old, infirm, compromised, maybe not.
GUPTA: That's right.
CUOMO: What did you learn when you started calling around about how states are trying to adapt to this and what they're finding out from the federal level?
GUPTA: I heard a couple of interesting things. First of all, I think this wasn't a uniform decision. I don't think everybody was on board with the criteria for who should get tested in the first place.
The criteria were pretty stringent that to be a person of interest you had to have traveled to one of these places, you had to - or have had contact with someone with a known infection in other countries.
It led - let more discretion to the - to the healthcare provider saying, "OK, this person has a pneumonia or some sort of problem. There's no clear cut reason. We're going to test for Coronavirus because we think that Coronavirus is circulating."
Up until today, frankly, that sort of discretion wasn't given to doctors. I - I don't think everyone was on board with that. I heard from very high levels that even early on, there was a push to sort of broaden out the testing.
Who was pushing in which direction and who was pushing in the other direction, I don't exactly know who and - and why they were doing that. But it wasn't a uniform sort of approach to this.
The second thing I think, you know, again, these flawed tests, I think, were a real problem, you know. And on one hand, the United States developed a test at the CDC very quickly, and that was a great thing because that test was important to identify these patients coming out of China. But after that, after trying to distribute these to - to clinics around the country, I think things fell apart a little bit over there, and that really hurt some of our initial surveillance.
CUOMO: Well look, I mean, you know, it led to Ron Klain, who obviously was working on the Ebola side for Obama, say anybody who says they know how many cases they have isn't telling you the truth because they're not testing enough to know.
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And what happens is now the states are starting to push back, and say, "We can test." You know, these are sophisticated states, California, New York, I mean many states all over the country have the capability to do this. They're being told "No."
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: That's the next piece in the puzzle. Sanjay, thank you for--
GUPTA: You got it.
CUOMO: --burning calories today, making phone calls, and helping us understand this a little bit better.
GUPTA: Will keep you on that (ph).
CUOMO: It's the fear of the unknown that will create panic that we do not need. Appreciate it, brother.
GUPTA: You got it.
CUOMO: So, California, 8,400 cases monitored. They have to meet these weird federal criteria for being able to test when they could do it themselves, why?
So, we check here in New York State, right? Not 8,400 cases or anything, but they're getting reports of people who are giving the symptoms, they don't meet the criteria.
So, we get the Commissioner from New York to come in, tell us what's happening here, what makes sense, and what doesn't, just in terms of understanding the problem, next.
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CUOMO: All right, New York State, other side of the country from California, first, no confirmed cases. Obviously though, the risks here are great. Tens of millions of tourists every year, 20 million people live in the State, and of course it's the global financial center.
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So, then we start hearing reports from different hospitals, different sources. People are coming in, could be influenza, maybe it's not. They say they want to be tested for Coronavirus, and they keep being told "No." Why?
Dr. Howard Zucker is the New York State Health Commissioner. He has the answers. Doctor?
DR. HOWARD ZUCKER, NEW YORK STATE HEALTH COMMISSIONER: Yes.
CUOMO: Thank you for joining us.
ZUCKER: Thank you for joining--
CUOMO: So, when we look at California, first confirmed case, case number 15 from the community, five days they wait to test.
The Governor comes out and says "We're monitoring 8,000-plus cases." He should know what he has on his hand, as you know. The fear for the public is what? What they don't know. Why wait so long? Why can't they test?
ZUCKER: Well I think part of it is there is a challenge that the federal government has these tests come into one place, which is the Centers for Disease Control.
We have in New York, a lab, the Wadsworth Center Lab, world-renowned lab that has looked at the protocols, and based on the CDC protocols, have developed a test that we are ready to move forward with as soon as the FDA approves it, we'll start testing tomorrow.
CUOMO: I'm sure the same is true in California. But--
ZUCKER: I suspect so.
CUOMO: But you can't.
ZUCKER: I can't, no. I need the FDA approval.
CUOMO: So, you have all these people coming in, the panic is in the unknown, you know this.
ZUCKER: Well it's the "Worried Well."
CUOMO: Right. The "Worried Well," very nicely said! You can test, but the federal government says no. Why? ZUCKER: Well - well, right now, they feel that they want to run the test at the CDC, and it's a matter of - of getting this through, and - and to be able to get our test approved, as well as probably other state labs that are of caliber like our lab.
CUOMO: So ordinarily, that would be fine. You just be patient. But this is not a time for patience.
ZUCKER: No.
CUOMO: Because time is the enemy. And you - we were talking earlier, and you said, "Well they're also overwhelmed at the CDC," you know, that.
ZUCKER: Right.
CUOMO: How can they be overwhelmed when it hasn't even hit us yet?
ZUCKER: Well this is why it's really important to prepare for what could happen. And you don't want to play catch-up on this. So, we--
CUOMO: But we are playing catch-up it seems like.
ZUCKER: Right. Well we - this is why, in New York, we have moved forward, the Governor - Governor Cuomo has put forth a $40 million appropriation to the budget to provide the ability to have diagnostic testing and supplies that are needed. And so, we are working on that.
And we would like to get the approval from the federal government, so that we could help those, who are concerned, and be able to take some of the burdens off of the federal government, not only for the State of New York, but also for some of the neighboring states that may not have the same kind of lab.
And I would add one more thing, which is that they have changed the criteria recently. So, it is - today, they've changed the criteria. So, there will be more tests that will need to be done. So, it would be better to have states like New York--
CUOMO: Right.
ZUCKER: --do the tests.
CUOMO: Now, they're getting negative pushback, you know, people like Sanjay, talking to people like me, it's getting out there that this criteria was too constrained.
The original criteria, was basically, "If you didn't come from this one area of China or you weren't in contact with someone who did, you don't get tested." And that is to keep a tight so that you can be efficient. But it doesn't make sense anymore, right?
ZUCKER: At this - well it's an evolving process, and we need to change accordingly. And so, we should be testing whoever, based on a clinical exam, or clinical assessment needs to be tested. And I think that that's the next step. CUOMO: Now, my suspicion is that I - I want you to give me a good reason for policy for it to be this way because the suspicion to me is, it is a great way to keep the numbers down, is that you don't get to test.
I'll do all the testing and I'll control what the numbers flow is, and that's all we'll know. And it may be slow in getting out. But at least there aren't numbers popping up all over the places.
ZUCKER: I--
CUOMO: Is there a better reason?
ZUCKER: Well I think that in the situation of this nature, when it comes to public health, all those kind of issues should be put aside because we're dealing with the public's safety, the public's health.
And whatever needs to be done, to move this - this forward, to make sure people are getting the tests that they need, should be done, and that should eclipse any concerns that we have.
CUOMO: But you don't - do you have any concern that your test is not as good as their test?
ZUCKER: I think our test is better.
CUOMO: Well and I'm sure California feel the same way. But let's be clear. This isn't a sophisticated thing to find, right?
ZUCKER: Right.
CUOMO: You can test for this the way you do with influenza, different strains, and figure out--
ZUCKER: Right.
CUOMO: --what it is.
ZUCKER: Right. Once we have the protocol, and our team, at the Wadsworth Center, came up with - with the test. We were able to move forward. And that - the Wadsworth Center is phenomenal. That was actually the center. Our lab is the one that--
CUOMO: Right.
ZUCKER: --came up with the Vitamin E acetate--
CUOMO: Right.
ZUCKER: --in the THC specimens.
CUOMO: Well that's a whole other story.
ZUCKER: Another story, yes.
CUOMO: That we still have to figure out is the dangers of vaping. ZUCKER: Right.
CUOMO: And what we have to worry about and not.
Let's end on the right note. I'm worried about the flow of information because I fear the unknown, and I think that that's what spreads panic, and we don't need that. More testing, I think, is going to give more confidence to the American people.
What should also give confidence is this isn't the boogeyman. If you get sick from this, you're not automatically going to die. We may have a falsely exaggerated sense of how lethal it is, and there are plenty you could do to not get it. So, help us through that.
ZUCKER: So, I think that we need to remove some of the anxiety that everyone has about this. And the way to do that is to prevent problems and the way to prevent a problem is to use good public health practice. Wash your hands, sneeze into your sleeve, also, stay home.
CUOMO: Sounds basic.
ZUCKER: Right.
CUOMO: But it really works well.
ZUCKER: It does.
CUOMO: With these viruses.
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ZUCKER: It does. Stay home. And - and they're boring kind of concepts, but they work, and they prevent respiratory spread.
The second is to prepare for a problem, and that's what we're doing. We are preparing. Dust off those plans, look at the strategies, and then to partner - to partner with hospitals, with nursing homes, with schools, and to be ready for a problem.
And I think, together, if we do all of that together and we work as a community, we actually could overcome any virus that nature sends our way, and I think we'll be successful.
CUOMO: How long you think until you're able to start testing people that you have here?
ZUCKER: Well we have been calling the - we were - I wrote to the FDA the other day, and I hope as soon as possible, and I hope by the beginning of next week.
CUOMO: Because every day, there are more and more people that are coming in that you have to make a judgment about, and right now, you can't.
ZUCKER: Right. And it is an evolving process. But I think it's important to keep this in perspective. A lot of people are getting very nervous about this, and - and I understand. If you don't know something, you would get nervous.
CUOMO: That's right.
ZUCKER: Right? And so, you have to remember that even though everyone speaks about SARS and but SARS and - and COVID-19, they're in the same family.
CUOMO: Right.
ZUCKER: They - they are Coronaviruses. But every - you know, if two people in the family, one kid has blue eyes, and one child has brown eyes, same family, but it just means that - that they may be a little bit different. And so--
CUOMO: Right.
ZUCKER: --I think that we need to keep this in perspective.
CUOMO: And in the case of my family, the one with the brown eyes is far inferior to the one with blue eyes. So, it's just different family by family.
ZUCKER: I won't comment on that.
CUOMO: Dr. Zucker?
ZUCKER: Thank you.
CUOMO: Thank you very much.
ZUCKER: Thanks.
CUOMO: Let us know how the information process goes, so we can make sure that people have no reason to panic.
ZUCKER: We will - we will do that. Thank you.
CUOMO: Doctor, thank you.
ZUCKER: Thank you.
CUOMO: All right.
The President's self-proclaimed best economy ever is having a very bad week. Why? Well, Coronavirus fears is a big part of this, right? The President takes credit for the gains. Now, he's blaming anything that goes wrong on everybody else.
We have a very valuable guest next with some perspective on our economy, a celebrated former Labor Secretary. We'll be right back.
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CUOMO: Trump wants you to think that Democrats are crashing the markets to hurt him. That is BS, and he knows it.
This is about traders and whether they have confidence in him, and his planning, and the global implications, namely U.S. companies, a lot of them, names you know like Nike, Coke, GM, Apple, Amazon, and many more, they're pulling back on their operations.
They're putting out reports they're not going to make as much money because of the expected impact to supply chains. This isn't about just what may or may not happen in this country. Look what's happening around the world, all right?
The second largest economy is potentially shut off. That sends fear to traders in the markets. Now, you have questions about the rest of Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Europe.
So, let's bring in someone who knows the macroeconomic, the world implications, on the larger scale of the economy, Robert Reich. He was the Labor Secretary under President Clinton.
It's good to see you, Sir, as always. Now, let's deal with what we know this isn't about. We're looking at your book here, "The System: Who Rigged It, How We Fix It" by you. Thank you very much for joining us.
Now, first the President said "Well, you know, the traders, they don't like seeing the Democrats on stage bashing the economy and Coronavirus." The markets crashed hours before the debate. This is not about a political hit. What is it about?
ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON, AUTHOR, "THE SYSTEM": Well it - it shouldn't be thought of as a political issue. This is not a partisan issue. This is about supply and demand, and fear of the future. And some fears, Chris, are perfectly rational. I mean some fears are not rational.
Right here, there's no reason to panic. I mean the stock market, for example, is not the economy. The stock market is a bunch of people who are investing based on hopes and fears.
And sometimes, those hopes and fears are exaggerated. Sometimes it's kind of a Road Runner cartoon. You know, suddenly you look down, and there's nothing there. But sometimes it is - it is quite different.
And we can't assume that just because the bottom is falling out of the stock market that the entire economy of the United States is also bottoming out.
CUOMO: Right.
REICH: The other thing to keep in mind is the consumer confidence, that is, how average people feel about the future, in terms of their jobs, their wages, their benefits, what they're going to be doing.
That plays a huge role in the economy because consumer purchasing is about almost 70 percent of the total economy in the United States.
CUOMO: Right.
REICH: And if people get worried about the future, and they pull in their horns, and they stop spending, that could be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
CUOMO: Right. So, like right now, on the bottom of the screen it says "Coronavirus fears drive Dow to worst point drop ever." Well the reason it's the worst point drop is it's never been this high before.
And as you well know, and the audience should understand, the people who make their money on Wall Street have been saying there was going to be a correction for some time, and it was just about when, and it's as likely as anything that this gave them a reason to sell off.
Isn't that part of the mix?
REICH: Yes. That is definitely part of it.
Now, the - the worst case scenario is that because of supply chain disruptions, and because consumers really are worried, and they are not - they're worried to the extent not just pulling in their horns, and worried about their future paychecks, but they're also worried about contagion.
You know, they stop going to movies. They stop going out to dinner. They stop going to - they cancel travel plans. I mean, there could be, down the road, if this continues at the rate it's been, there could be a lot of economic problems that are created, simply because of the behavioral changes that come about because of this fear.
Now, I'm not going to be predicting anything. But I - I think it's realistic to say this could be, it could be the biggest threat to the global economy since the Great Recession, since the Great Crash of 2008. I hope it's not.
CUOMO: Why?
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REICH: I hope it's not. But I - but given that China, the second biggest economy in the world, shows signs of contracting or actually closing down, given that Europe is facing a great deal of risk right now--
CUOMO: While Bob talks, Vaughn, put up the map-- REICH: --because there are no borders.
CUOMO: --of the countries that are involved. Keep going, Bob.
REICH: Well, you know, you have a - you have Europe with 300 million people. That's our second largest trading partner. Europe is infected. I mean, to some extent, it's not - it's not massive. But it is moving in a disturbing direction.
China is obviously a huge problem. And China is where not only we have supply chains, a lot of the supplies and products that find their way into American products actually start or are assembled in China.
CUOMO: Right.
REICH: South Korea is facing a big problem. South Korea is a major, major economy in the world right now.
CUOMO: So, some contraindicative data.
REICH: And one of the major suppliers.
CUOMO: Everything you're saying has been borne out by what we've been seeing. Apple then came out today, and said, "Oh, looks like China's getting this under control. We're feeling a little bit better about things." Maybe they're trying to fuel optimism, maybe that's just their experience.
The counterpoint to that is we just got a report here that the U.S. has its first Coronavirus-related drug shortage. The drug has nothing to do with Coronavirus. But someone alerted the FDA, "Hey, because of Coronavirus, our supply chain is disrupted. We're going to run short on a drug that is important in the U.S. market."
These are the kinds of things that traders find out about, Wall Street types find out about, and it affects their enthusiasm for different stocks. I mean, that's what this is about. It's not a political hit job.
REICH: Oh, it's absolutely not a politically - I mean nothing I've said suggests a political hit job. I mean this is a - this is kind of reasonable worries. This is not panic. There's a difference between reasonable worry and panic.
And again, you can't tell the future of the economy. Nobody knows the future of the economy. The stock market is one indicator.
Now, the Federal Reserve is likely to try to reduce interest rates or will reduce short-term interest rates in an effort to stimulate demand, if in fact consumers get very nervous and stop spending as much, and the economy starts sinking.
The Federal Reserve Board is obviously enormously powerful, but it can't do much if people start worrying about the contagion issue.
CUOMO: Right. REICH: And they stop going to places and the entire tourist industry, the travel industry, restaurants, hotels, everything else starts basically being affected by this.
CUOMO: Right.
REICH: That - the Fed has nothing to do with that.
CUOMO: Right. So--
REICH: But that's down, we - there's no reason to worry about that. The other factor, Chris, is exports. We do depend on export markets.
If those export markets start drying up, because of fears, or because a lot of people just simply don't any longer have the wherewithal to buy products from the United States, that's going to also affect--
CUOMO: Right
REICH: --our American economy. It's an inter-related economy. We are part of the world. You can't take the American economy out of the rest of the world, even though Donald Trump occasionally sounds like he wants to.
CUOMO: Well look, the Coronavirus is a reminder that we are all in this together. And what happens in one part of the world is going to have reverberations everywhere else.
We'll watch it and we'll keep coming back to you to understand what's going to happen and why it's happening in that moment. Thank you very much, Sir. Good luck with the book.
REICH: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, now, look, this is a political test moment, make no mistake about that.
In fact, in most election cycles, you have something come out. They used to call them, you know, October or November surprises, and you have to deal with it, Bush with Katrina, Obama with Ebola.
Will Trump pass this test? Is this that test? This is the time that you go to the men and women with the bigger minds. And we are lucky to have one tonight.
Tom Friedman is going to help us understand what this situation means, and he has a very unique, arguably controversial, take on what the Democrats should do to win in 2020. He joins us, next.
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CUOMO: You notice I didn't have any of the officials that are handling this situation for our government on tonight? That's not a coincidence. In fact, sources tell CNN that government health officials now have to clear any public statements on Coronavirus with Vice President Pence's office first.
The move comes, of course, in the face of criticism about how the Administration has handled its response to the outbreak, in no small part, putting Pence anywhere near something having to do with science.
Is it warranted? Let's put it to Tom Friedman. He's covered the White House, and is an expert in global affairs. He's also the Author of "Thank You for Being Late."
Good to see you, Sir.
TOM FRIEDMAN, FOREIGN AFFAIRS COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good to be with you, Chris. Thanks for having me.
CUOMO: Do you see this situation as one of the test moments that can define an election?
FRIEDMAN: There's no question, Chris. This is a - this is a global crisis that we still haven't come to see the full magnitude of it.
And it could be unlike any crisis really in our lifetime, outside of a World War, in that the entire world gets seized up because of the spread of this virus. And there's only one way it can be managed, in my view, Chris, one is with American leadership.
You know, I always felt that President Obama's greatest foreign policy success was the way he led the - the curbing of the Ebola virus. And the reason he got so little credit for it was because it worked.
CUOMO: Right.
FRIEDMAN: And what you see in these moments, Chris, is that we are the indispensable nation. There is no one other than America that can pull together a kind of global response.
And, you know, it's unfortunate that this Administration is hobbled by - by a past, one of - of violating truth and trust so many times, and abusing our allies so many times. But I don't think, you know, it's not too late to start.
And I think it's the time for America to really step forward because there is no alternative, when you face the kind of global pandemic like this, there's no alternative to American leadership. CUOMO: So, in a moment like this, you would think those who want power would seize on it and speak with one voice and make this a function of their campaign.
[21:40:00]
But on the Democrat side of the ball, they are all over the place, Tom. You have arguably the Party under siege from two opposite poles.
You have Bernie Sanders, who many would say isn't even really a Democrat in his politics, he is surging, he is taking over that Party, not unlike what we saw in 2016 with President Trump.
And then, on the other side, you have someone who is also not a Democrat in Bloomberg, who is spending his way into contention.
How do you see their fate at this point?
FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, I am - I've been a supporter of - of Mayor Bloomberg. I've not been a supporter of Bernie Sanders. But what I'm really a supporter of, Chris, more is a - is a unified front to take on Donald Trump because I believe this is a four-alarm fire.
I believe that what the country really wants now, if there's - if there's an overriding trend in the country, Chris, let's take the extremes out, I think the overriding mood in the country is they want someone to pull us together because we have big hard work to do - to do.
And now, in the face of this Coronavirus, we have really big hard work to do, and big hard things can only be done together. And that's why I wrote a column calling for basically a - a Democrat-led government of national unity.
And I don't know who's going to emerge in the - on the Democratic side. But whoever it is, I hope they will appoint a team of rivals that will represent all wings of the Democratic Party, and moderate Republicans, and Independents.
I'd love to see Mitt Romney in this cabinet. I'd like to see an authentic outspoken American military hero like Admiral McRaven, who led our Special Forces, and took down bin Laden in this - in this a kind of government.
We need a national unity government. People are not searching for Medicare-for-All right now. They're searching for "All for one, and one for all."
And I think the - the Democrat who can emerge with that message is the one that I hope will win. But I know that Democrat would be effective, would be able to govern effectively, and not just win.
CUOMO: Well look, I love the ideas. One of the reasons I begged Tom to come on tonight is I love the idea of testing this notion of a "Team of rivals" of running as an entire slate, not least of all because I suggested it couple months ago, but nobody cared. But when Tom Friedman says it, they will care.
FRIEDMAN: Please!
CUOMO: But I - but first we got to look at why it's not going to happen.
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
CUOMO: Tom, the analysis, the premise could be completely off. The country is not looking for unity. In fact, it is looking for it to be recognized as a function of divisions.
And that is the reason the President has been successful, is that those who are angry, and saying "I don't want to listen to the Cognizant, the - I don't listen to the Tom Friedmans. My country is being stolen. I'm being left behind. This country has old values that have been forgotten," they're angry. They believe he hears them.
Bernie Sanders has a formidable base, bigger than anybody else in the Democratic Party, as that I've seen, where they say the same thing. "Not anymore! We've got a guy who's mad as hell for us now." Who's asking for unity?
FRIEDMAN: Well let's remember the guy, President Trump who - who ran on that message actually lost the popular vote, so if we're just talking about numbers, let's start there.
Secondly, Bernie Sanders probably has somewhere between 30 percent, 35 percent of the Democratic side of the aisle that--
CUOMO: Maybe more.
FRIEDMAN: May--
CUOMO: Maybe we'll know a lot more after Tuesday.
FRIEDMAN: We'll see. Yes, we'll see.
CUOMO: He may walk into the Convention time with 40-plus.
FRIEDMAN: He might. That's still not even a majority of the Democratic Party. So if - if--
CUOMO: But what do you do, Tom? First of all, let's forget about what we want. We can pick it up after the break.
But Bloomberg and Bernie, they may both start with a B, but they are complete anathema to one - you know, Bernie Sanders' guy couldn't say fast enough, "I don't want his money. We don't want anything to do with him."
You know, you can have ideological differences within a Party. It happens all the time, especially with the Democrats, more so than Republicans. But not like this. You've never had a Democratic Socialist with the Ultimate Capitalist saying "We'll find a way to bring it together." You think it's even possible?
FRIEDMAN: Well, to that, I say then "Welcome to four more years of Donald Trump, a Trump who will control the House, the Senate, the Supreme Court and the White House." And that, to me, is "Pull the emergency lever."
CUOMO: Now, let's question that before we go to break.
If Bernie Sanders is good enough, to win for President, why is it such a disaster for every other race in play?
FRIEDMAN: I don't understand that.
CUOMO: So, if he's good enough to win for President, if that were to have, Democrats argue "Yes, but he could still make us not win the Senate," why?
FRIEDMAN: Well I think Bernie - Bernie Sanders believes things that a lot of Americans do not believe. One is this notion of Democratic Socialism. Another is a $50 trillion spending program. And those are things that a lot of Americans simply do not accept.
And, you know, even if he somehow could - could win the Presidency, Chris, how is he possibly going to govern, OK, when you - when - when the majority of Democrats aren't with you, let alone the opposition.
CUOMO: So, here's the good news. I know that it can be sometimes frustrating to hear problems articulated, even when it's done so as - as eloquently as Tom does.
[21:45:00]
Here's why I needed him tonight. He wrote a piece about what he sees as a fix. That is something we have never seen before, but the Democratic situation, right now, may call for it more than ever before.
What that is? How it would look? Next.
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CUOMO: Go with the "We" not the "Me." That is the theory that Tom Friedman has. He wrote an op-ed that whoever becomes the Democratic nominee needs to build a unity ticket made up of moderate and progressive Democrats. Here's a key quote.
"Neither can defeat the other. Neither can win without the other. Neither can govern without the other. If they don't join together, if the Democrats opt for a circular firing squad, you can kiss the America you grew up in goodbye."
Tom Friedman, thank you for staying with us. The question becomes who is at the top of the ticket?
FRIEDMAN: You know, Chris, we're going to find out, I think, in the next obviously two weeks probably. We'll see if - if South Carolina, if Joe Biden wins there, if that propels him, re-energizes him into Super Tuesday.
[21:50:00]
We'll see if Mike Bloomberg's strategy in investing in all the Super Tuesday states, and not running in the earlier primaries propels him, and we'll see if Bernie can keep running the table in these - in these states and at least build up a plurality of delegates going into the Convention.
He probably won't have enough to win on a first vote. They'll - there'll probably have to be a follow-up. And I do believe we're going to see the most unusual Democratic Convention that we've seen in a long time.
CUOMO: And that's why this idea of the Super Friends might happen where--
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
CUOMO: --if, you know, somebody comes together, and I think it's hard to depict with Bernie. I have to be honest with you because he's uncompromising in his ideals.
FRIEDMAN: I do too, yes, I mean.
CUOMO: So, the idea of having all these other people around him--
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
CUOMO: --who don't agree with going for it with Medicare-for-All, and everything he wants to do with the tax structure.
But the idea of "Hey look, you know all these people, and all of you like them to different degrees, we're going to put them all together, and you'll know what you're getting in a way that you never have before," that concept is good. It's just who's Superman.
FRIEDMAN: Well, you know--
CUOMO: Or Superwoman.
FRIEDMAN: You know, we're - we're in a really evolving moment now, Chris, with this Coronavirus. I really hope that in two weeks, it's in our rear view mirror, and things are back under control.
But what if it isn't? What if this is Katrina times 10? And I think if it is, you could see the public looking for a leader who has two things that - that are very, very important in this kind of situation.
One, experience in managing a crisis, and two, an ability to pull together a coalition and - and build trust across both intra-party and outside of the party.
And I think that could - that - those demands and requirements could really damage Bernie Sanders who is not seen as someone who played well with others in the Senate. He has one of the worst records of doing that. And he's seen as a very dogmatic ideologue.
I think Biden, Bloomberg, Buttigieg, Amy Klobuchar, Elizabeth Warren, they all, you know, could this - this all - they all could be viewed differently, Chris.
In two weeks, we could be looking for a very different candidate, especially if this President, you know, I've said from the very beginning. What happens when he has a crisis? What happens when he has a crisis in two ways?
You know, one is he has violated the two core principles of our democracy, truth and trust, so many times, now we need him to look into the camera, to reassure the country, to reassure the world. And people are saying "You? You have lied so many times into that camera, you know."
CUOMO: He does have a weird opposite index where 50 percent, 55 percent on the economy, credibility is usually in the 60s, in terms of whether they think he's a liar.
FRIEDMAN: Right
CUOMO: It's an odd mix.
FRIEDMAN: Yes, and especially in a--
CUOMO: And, right now, just like with Iran--
FRIEDMAN: --in a health crisis.
CUOMO: --we have to--
FRIEDMAN: Yes.
CUOMO: --believe him. And it's hard to believe him.
FRIEDMAN: Yes. It's in a health crisis that - that really matters. And it also Donald Trump has never for one day acted as President of all the people. He has only been the President of his base.
And a day has not gone by where he has dis - has not disparaged people from the other Party. He has made no effort to build bridges. And he's alienated so many of our allies. So, we're going to need a leader, a very different kind of leader
right now. And I - and I would say, you know, the - the whole Democratic context - contest could look very different, Chris, in a few weeks, I hope - I hope this thing goes away immediately.
I - I want a President elected, you know, who can think about the future, not managing a crisis. But we're in the middle of something that is potentially very big.
CUOMO: What is the potential chance of this happening where somebody's at the top of the ticket, and Elizabeth Warren, Amy Klobuchar, probably not Biden, but three or four of the other ones who were in contention, all agree to take positions in that person's government?
FRIEDMAN: You know, Chris, I get to travel a lot around the country. I cannot tell you how many people have stopped me just in the last two days, I mean, all over the place, and said two things.
One is I had that same idea, just the way you said, you know, of a national unity government. And do you think there's a chance?
People are starved for a leader who will pull us together. I think that is the - the secret underlying mood of the country. I do not buy the bit with the extremes.
I think, at the center of the country, Americans understand we're being ripped apart. We are becoming like Sunnis and Shiites in Syria today, and they are absolutely appalled by it, and they are frightened by it. And they are starved for a leader who will pull us together and out of many make one again.
CUOMO: Tom Friedman, thank you for highlighting the problem that is obvious and a solution that'll make a lot of people think. Appreciate it, my friend.
FRIEDMAN: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: All right, so why is the President moving off the MAGA train in his new outreach to a critical voting bloc? Have you heard the new slogan that's out? What a BOLO, next.
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(END VIDEO CLIP) CUOMO: BOLO, that means Be On the Look-Out.
The Trump Campaign is set to open 15 so-called Black Voices for Trump Community Centers across swing states over the next few weeks.
It's part of a new effort to reach Black voters and the Campaign is trying do it with a single word, "Woke." They're rolling out hats, hoodies and other merch with the term. His team is calling it a "Woke" concept.
Now, it raises a couple of questions. One, does he know what that means? And two, laying claim to a word that he proves on a daily basis he really does know nothing about, and, in fact, they make fun of people for being "Woke."
How will it play? Be On the Look-Out. CNN TONIGHT with D. Lemon, the man who is known for his wokeness, starts right now.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST, CNN TONIGHT WITH DON LEMON: Wow! That is super rad. That's so hot, Chris. I mean, you're so cool.
