Return to Transcripts main page
Cuomo Prime Time
Trump On Coronavirus: "We Closed It Down, We Stopped It"; Mulvaney Out as Trump's Acting Chief Of Staff; Former Senator Al Franken To 2020 Democrats: Focus On Trump. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 06, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: But I got to tell you, these wrestlers, by and large, Jim, are telling me they really like Jordan as a coach and a friend. Many of them told us they're speaking out now because they have been watching Jordan lie, they say, for two years, and they've just had it.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Goodness! Well patience running thin apparently. Drew Griffin, thanks very much for the great reporting.
GRIFFIN: Thanks.
SCIUTTO: Of course, the news continues tonight, so I want to hand it over to Chris Cuomo for CUOMO PRIME TIME.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST: All right, thanks, Jim. That's important reporting. We've got to stay on it.
Hello, everybody. I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
We have the Mayor with us tonight from the epicenter of the Coronavirus crisis, Seattle, Washington. Why has it become a virtual ghost town? What do they need?
Now, maybe more troubling, as a question than that is, how do you match the reality on the ground there and in this country with our President claiming he shut down the outbreak? He insists there are already enough tests available. His Vice President just told you there are not.
We also have tonight an exclusive. Al Franken is with us, the U.S. Senator forced into political exile two years ago. He has a take on the election you must see.
What do you say? It's Friday night. Let's get after it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: All right, let's be clear. It's not about what I think. The President's words form the indictment against him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're in great shape.
I heard about it in China, came out of China. I heard about it. And we made a good move. We closed it down, we stopped it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: No. And then, it goes on. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Anybody that wants a test can get a test. Anybody that needs a test gets a test. They're there. They have the tests. And the tests are beautiful. And the tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect, right? This was not as perfect as that, but pretty good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Talk about a sickness there is no cure for! Those are his words, in that hat, that hat that should say "Keep America Greatly Misinformed" or "Keep Me First." There is nothing subjective here.
Again, the VP, the man in charge, there are not enough tests. The CDC, "We had problems with the tests." The CDC, "We need more time to get out tests." You want to compare a pandemic?
People will live and die on the basis of the approach of this government to this pathetic abuse of power in Ukraine, to that transcript? I just don't understand how people can ignore this, how you can see this as somehow OK?
What is the latest? Nearly 300 cases, 15 dead. He didn't shut anything down. But be clear, those numbers, I don't like to see them, but they're almost nothing compared to what we're seeing elsewhere, thank God.
But this President has to stop making it worse with his petty pandering and deception. How do we see it, playing out? As you're about to see, Seattle's merry - Mayor Jenny Durkan, OK, she's on the front lines of the fight.
Mayor Durkan, I did not bring you here to discuss the President and politics. I want people to be aware of what's happening in your city, what you need to deal with, and how you can get more help. Thank you for joining us, especially now.
MAYOR JENNY DURKAN, SEATTLE, WASHINGTON: Thank you, Chris, for having me here.
And I - I want to say, I may be on the front lines. But the people who are really on the front lines that I am so grateful to are our healthcare workers and our first responders who are trying to keep people safe, they're trying to help families.
I have deep condolences to the families who've actually lost people. I think the President fails to appreciate that these are human beings who have lost some of the people most dear to them.
And we, as a government, have an obligation to let people know what the truth is, to know ourselves what the truth is, so that we can prepare both a health response and an economic response.
And that's what we need here in Seattle that there's - we have a list of things that we've asked for the federal government for our - help in, and I'm hoping that we get it pretty expeditiously.
CUOMO: Information, integrity, follow-through, that's leadership in a situation like this. The only thing I must push back on, Mayor, is he doesn't fail to appreciate it. He doesn't fail to understand it. He knows what the reality is.
What matters to him more is how he looks. It's the only explanation for trying to compare what he's doing here to the perfection of that Ukraine transcript. It is out of bounds, and then some.
Back to what matters. Why are you dealing with so much in Seattle right now? And how do you quantify it for the audience?
[21:05:00]
DURKAN: So, I think the first thing people have to understand is that we think we are at the beginning stages of what could be a large outbreak not just in the Seattle area, but it could be nationwide.
And we need the public to know what they can do to protect themselves, so that they can. We also need to have the resources we need. I met with Vice President Pence yesterday, together with Governor Inslee, and a number of the Members of the Congressional delegation.
Number one thing we need is broad-scale testing. Most of our public health officials here believe that we actually have more cases of the virus in the community spreading.
You may see, as we get more testing capability, that those numbers go up significantly, that could cause panic because people may think that this - the disease is suddenly spreading. But we think that what we'll be doing is catching up to the number of diseases that are present here.
We have to know what we're dealing with, so that we can have the right public health response, so we can protect our first responders, so we can actually protect those people who are most vulnerable to this disease.
And that's why government needs to be fully aligned. The people need to know that they're getting accurate information. And we, in the state and local level, dealing with this, have to have the support we need, up and down the chain.
CUOMO: And look, the virtue of being honest and transparent is sure, you'll see a big pop in the number of cases.
You'll also see a big pop in the number of cases where people go home, where they're not even hospitalized, where they overcome because the ratios suggest that. 80-plus percent are asymptomatic or overcoming. And people will take confidence in that that it's not just the worst cases that you hear about.
So, you know what you need. You go to the CDC. The President says "Tests for everybody. Tests are ready. They're perfect. They're beautiful." Did you get all the tests you need?
DURKAN: We hope to get those tests shortly. We don't have them yet, but we had additional testing come online today. We will know at the beginning of next week.
CUOMO: That's your own testing, though, right?
DURKAN: That's our - we have an institution here--
CUOMO: Yes.
DURKAN: --that's able to do additional testing. The CDC and FDA have allowed that to happen.
CUOMO: Right.
DURKAN: But we need more test kits. I'm going to get briefed tomorrow, and over the weekend, to see where we are on that because it's going to be one of the key things we have to do.
Number one, to assess how much has this virus spread in the community, but also so that people can know whether they have the disease or not.
If you quarantine a first responder or a healthcare worker for 14 days, just to see if they develop the symptoms, we should also be able to test them, so they and their families know whether they have the disease, whether they can return to work or not. Testing is going to be a critical stage.
The other thing we're going to need is economic relief. You know, our small businesses, and workers, and particularly, the gig economy workers, could suffer severe financial loss here, and don't have the resiliency that our large corporations have.
We need the federal government to step in on these kinds of crises in the same way it would for a hurricane in another part of the country. And if we get it right here, we can get it right for the rest of America as well.
CUOMO: What's your biggest concern? You seem very calm in doing the preparation for the interview tonight. You are being regarded that way that you are seen as steady in this, and not overwhelmed by the situation.
How not? How are you keeping it in check? DURKAN: I think that the - that my biggest concern is that this is really a marathon. And a lot of our front-line workers, our healthcare workers, our first responders are getting fatigued and depleted themselves in Kirkland, the city nearby, where this Senior Center was.
A number of firefighters who responded to that have been pulled out of service, which impacts that community in a whole number of ways.
And I want our community to know that this is serious. This could impact us significantly. We will get through it. But we have to take it seriously, but yet not panic.
CUOMO: Right.
DURKAN: And I think that if we get the resources we need, and I think every American deserves, that we can weather this storm, but it will take all of us pulling together, at every level of government, and the community pulling together as well.
CUOMO: Right. I mean, and look, and just to be clear, Mayor, I'm not trying to politicize your situation versus the President. The only reason I'm jumping on him is I know the danger of misinformation in situations like this.
He says everybody can have a test. People call your office, and say, "I want a test." You say, "I can't give you a test." Now there's a disconnect. Now they don't know what to think.
You know, he's saying "It's being shut down." They're calling you, and say, "Why are we hearing about more cases?" We had a graphic at the top of the show, 298 cases. Since we've been discussing, it's now 304. People will say, "Why is it going up?"
And if there were just consistency of message and honesty from the top that there have to be so many more cases than the ones we know about. It doesn't make any sense. We have over 300,000 cases of the flu. How do we have only 300 cases of this?
[21:10:00]
That's why I'm calling for the transparency on high, so that you don't have to deal with it at your level.
DURKAN: No. And I think, Chris, you're exactly right. And so, the public knows as well. And look, this is not a political issue.
We've got to address this as a public health crisis that could hit anywhere in America. And if we do that, and address it in that way, I think Americans will have confident that we're doing what we need to do.
But at the same time, we - we have to have consistency. You know, the President's adviser, Mr. Kudlow, went on the air this morning, and said, "Avoid Seattle." That was the wrong thing to say. It's inconsistent with what the Vice President and his Task Force said to us yesterday. They've taken steps to have him correct that because they know, at
least the healthcare providers and the people connected to that Task Force, know how important it is that they give accurate, and truthful, and fair information.
CUOMO: Yes. It's not the plague. We'll make it through. If we're going to do it, we're going to do it together. And the biggest threat is people not knowing what to expect. That is when it starts to get ugly.
Mayor Jenny Durkan, we stand here ready to get out information as becomes available. You tell us what you need, you tell us what's happening, and you will have a forum here.
DURKAN: Thank you so much, Chris.
CUOMO: The best to you. Stay healthy. And may people in Seattle get healthy very soon. Be well. We'll be in touch.
DURKAN: Thank you.
CUOMO: And we will. We'll monitor the situation. You have to because you got to just keep track of things, and manage expectations.
But there is also breaking political news. A major change in White House staff, we'll tell you about, a real head-shaker.
And, an exclusive, Al Franken, the Senator who resigned under pressure from some in his own Party, more than two years ago, all ahead. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:15:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Breaking news tonight, President Trump now on Chief of Staff Number Four.
Mick Mulvaney, remember him? He told us to get over Trump's request for foreign election interference. Loyalty rewarded, not! He's out, replaced with Mark Meadows, one of Trump's most loyal Congressional supporters.
Of course, last month, the President said this, about reports that change was coming. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: That was a false report. I have a great relationship with Mick. I have a great relationship with Mark. And it's false.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Do you need to say anything more!
Kaitlan Collins, at the White House, listen, it is a scary time when we're dealing with something like Coronavirus, and you know you cannot trust the President to tell the truth.
Let's get to the politics. Why did this happen?
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's what's so interesting about the timing here because Mick Mulvaney kind of helped stay on because of impeachment. People were telling the President, "Do not shake up your team while you're going through this impeachment trial."
But now, the President is facing another giant crisis in this Coronavirus outbreak, and this is the time he's deciding to make this change. Now, this is not surprising to anyone in Washington.
It was not really a question of if but when Mark Meadows was going to become Chief of Staff because he is one of the President's most trusted advisers. They speak several times a day a week about any kind of topic. So, it's not really a surprise because Mick Mulvaney had really lost a lot of his power in the West Wing.
CUOMO: So, loyalty to Trump aside, what's the spin on why Meadows is the right guy?
COLLINS: Well he is someone who has had the President's ear for several years now. The President has gone to him time and time again for advice on things. And the President sometimes gets in these moods, Chris, where he wants to change his staff. He believes that will help him be more successful.
And, of course, what's been really notable is every Chief of Staff of his has been so different, the leadership styles of Reince Priebus to John Kelly to Mick Mulvaney. So, it will be really interesting to see how Mark Meadows comes into this role. People in the White House seem to like him.
But one other thing that's interesting is he is one of the first Chiefs of Staff to really have a relationship with people on Capitol Hill, not just Republican lawmakers, but Democratic lawmakers too. So, that will be something interesting to watch, as he is coming into this role.
Of course, Mick Mulvaney is going to Northern Ireland as the Special Envoy. And that might raise a little - a few eyebrows, why is he going there. We're told that actually that's a job he lobbied for long before he became Chief of Staff. And remember, we reported that Mick Mulvaney had gotten bumped off the
President's trip to India. They said it was because he had a cold. A lot of people said that it looked like his time was coming to an end because of that.
He reminded the President, after that trip, "Yes, I still want that job in Northern Ireland." So, that is what we're told played a factor in this decision tonight as well.
CUOMO: All right, well here's what you'll have to chase down going forward. He wore more than one hat, right? OMB, he was dealing with Consumer Affairs. Who is going to take over those jobs?
Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much, especially for the quick work on a Friday night. Appreciate it.
COLLINS: Of course.
CUOMO: All right, we haven't heard much from Al Franken, have we?
He hasn't done a lot of interviews, since his exit from the Senate, certainly not news interviews. But he will, tonight. What does the Senator - the former Senator make of the 2020 election cycle? What's he been up to? Answers ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:20:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Former Senator Al Franken, the Minnesota Democrat, joins us in a PRIME TIME exclusive to talk politics future, present, and past.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CUOMO: Senator, pleasure to see you.
AL FRANKEN (D), FORMER SENATOR OF MINNESOTA: Great to see you.
CUOMO: How you've been doing?
FRANKEN: I've been doing great. I've been really busy. I, you know, it's very important for me to have my voice out there. I've been doing this podcast. That sounds pathetic usually because there are 600,000 podcasts. But I - a lot of people are listening to it and. CUOMO: There's only one Al Franken podcast though.
FRANKEN: Yes. That's true. And we have - Jeffrey Toobin's joined me a couple times.
CUOMO: Never been invited myself.
FRANKEN: That's true. Well we - we do very deep dives on issues.
CUOMO: Oh, then I don't belong there.
FRANKEN: Exactly!
CUOMO: I did not--
FRANKEN: Exactly, you got it.
CUOMO: I thought it was a fitness thing.
FRANKEN: No, no, like I'll give you an example. When we did - when the Kavanaugh hearings happened, I didn't want to do that day's news. But I had Jeffrey on to explain The Federalist Society, so that people will get a perspective on what--
CUOMO: Right.
FRANKEN: --on what that is.
CUOMO: Yes. And it's not a competition. I mean I am a lawyer though, just so you know.
FRANKEN: I did not know that.
CUOMO: No, it's all right.
FRANKEN: No, I actually did.
CUOMO: I mean, no - yes. No, I don't have to be on the podcast with you. Weird that I haven't been at that, nut I'll let it go because really that's not what this is about.
FRANKEN: OK. OK. Well - we'll see how you do here.
CUOMO: I'll tell you what. I'm starting with levity because I don't see much cause for joy with what's going on in your Party right now.
FRANKEN: It's been frustrating.
CUOMO: You tell me though--
FRANKEN: It's been frustrating.
CUOMO: --how do you see the state of play?
FRANKEN: Well the state of play is what it is. We are - appears that we're down to the two candidates, and they'll hash it out. And I've been frustrated because I've been watching these debates, and
for five, six, seven, going back debates, I've been kind of screaming at the - at the screen going like, "Talk about Trump. Talk about Trump."
CUOMO: Instead of?
[21:25:00]
FRANKEN: Instead of arguing about - well let's take healthcare, OK. Well we'll have - it's good that we're all looking to get to Universal.
But we won 40 seats the last cycle, and we won it for a reason, which is the Republicans win in '16, they have both Houses, and they're going to repeal and replace, and what do they come up with?
CUOMO: Nada.
FRANKEN: 23 million Americans lose their healthcare under that plan. You lose your protections. States can get rid of all these different protections on--
CUOMO: The President says--
FRANKEN: --pre-existing conditions.
CUOMO: The President says that's not true. But he is in court, right now--
FRANKEN: No, he--
CUOMO: --fighting to get rid of them, just for the record.
FRANKEN: He doubled down. After losing 40 seats, he doubles down, and he joins the State's Attorney's General's--
CUOMO: That's right.
FRANKEN: --suit to declare--
CUOMO: Invalidate pre-existing conditions and all of Obamacare.
FRANKEN: The entire thing. Including--
CUOMO: Yes. It's going on right now.
FRANKEN: --including free vaccinations. That's part of the protections of the - of the ACA.
CUOMO: Relevant right now with what we're facing, even though we don't have a vaccine.
FRANKEN: That's why I brought it up.
CUOMO: Thank you. Here's the - here's the problem though. FRANKEN: What is it (ph)?
CUOMO: They kept doing it, granular debates about whose single-payer system would happen faster, and for more trillions or less trillions, and you're not having that debate in the general, but you were obsessed with it, in some purity test.
What do you think the reality is of what happens in the general and what you can get done even if you win?
FRANKEN: Oh, first of all, what we can get done on healthcare, if we win, may be different from a single-payer without insurance. If - if Bernie - even if Bernie wins, you know, when I first got to the Senate, we were - that was when we were crafting ACA.
And I went up to Bernie because I knew he was single-payer. And I said, "Bernie, if you like, I'll join you on single-payer, but we're 58 votes short," you know, and so--
CUOMO: What did he say?
FRANKEN: He kind of laughed. So, anyway, you know, what we can get, you know, every other developed country has Universal Healthcare. But they all have some insurance, private insurance that you can get. So, they're--
CUOMO: Most do have supplemental plans and special--
FRANKEN: Well they all do.
CUOMO: Especially for special care and stuff like that. The Senator says he can get it all done as single-payer, and that's the way to do it.
FRANKEN: Right.
CUOMO: And he has never expressed any flexibility about it.
FRANKEN: Well--
CUOMO: For him, it's about authenticity. What is it for you?
FRANKEN: Well, you know, he - that's what we're hashing out now. And that's a very appropriate discussion.
But we need to be talking about Donald Trump and how awful he is, as not just a President but as a human being. And look, right now, we have this Coronavirus. When you have a crisis like this, the strongest thing you can bring to it, as a leader, is credibility, and he has none.
CUOMO: He said his reaction today has been perfect, "Not as perfect as the Ukraine transcript." I am - I'm not kidding you.
FRANKEN: Well, you know, perfect--
CUOMO: That's what he said, but close.
FRANKEN: Perfect is perfect. It's either perfect or not perfect.
CUOMO: But he compared--
FRANKEN: It's not more perfect.
CUOMO: --it to the Ukraine transcript
FRANKEN: I know. Well you know how perfect that was.
CUOMO: But what does that tell you about what you're up against that that's what he'll say talking about Coronavirus while you have a 100 debaters talking about the granular mechanisms of single-payer healthcare.
FRANKEN: Well once we have the nomination, whoever has it, they'll be talking about their plan. It'll either be Biden or - or Bernie.
CUOMO: What about "Or bust?" What about that as a possibility? They are nowhere near each other, these two gentlemen and two different policies.
FRANKEN: I don't think they're that far apart.
Look, I was there for the ACA when we legislated that. Bernie didn't get what he wanted, but he not only voted for it, but he did Community Health Centers. That was a big contribution to that.
I did the medical loss ratio. Medical loss ratio says that insurance companies have to spend at least 80 percent of their premiums on actual healthcare, not on CEO salaries, not on advertising, not on - not on administration, 85 percent for large group. That should go to 90.
But, you know, what--
CUOMO: That's a great idea in terms of controlling costs and making sure you get effectiveness of dollar.
FRANKEN: Yes. Americans got $1.5 billion back from the insurance companies who didn't meet the medical loss ratio. And before the ACA, there were companies that had medical loss ratios of 40 percent.
[21:30:00]
CUOMO: I totally get it. And look, I know you have no official position for the audience, not Biden, not Bernie, you're watching, you're a concerned citizen and Democrat.
But Sanders, it's interesting to hear. We know that he moved with you guys on ACA, but that's not his pitch right now.
FRANKEN: Well if these - if he becomes President, he will try to get single-payer without insurance. I don't - I doubt very much that he would be able to get that. CUOMO: What does that look like though? If your Party is saying, "Listen, Mr. President, we're not going single-payer. Our own Party didn't want it."
FRANKEN: But you can go - you can go single-payer, but also have insurance. You can do that as well. You can say - I mean that's--
CUOMO: We've just never heard him say that. And he says--
FRANKEN: Well he doesn't say that.
CUOMO: --this is a revolution. We're all in. We're going all the way. That's what we need.
FRANKEN: Yes. But he's going - we have three branches of the government. And the Congress has two Houses.
CUOMO: I know.
FRANKEN: So--
CUOMO: But that's why they're hitting him with the Trump stick, which look, person to person, I don't know how you make that comparison between Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump. I don't see it.
FRANKEN: No. It is completely, yes--
CUOMO: But they'll say, yes, except he's equally as inflexible. He's equally his way--
FRANKEN: No.
CUOMO: --or the highway.
FRANKEN: No.
CUOMO: You disagree?
FRANKEN: No. That's why I'm saying, when we were doing the ACA, he, you know, contributed in the way he contributed. Community Health Centers is extremely important. It wasn't terribly controversial. We all were - were for that.
You know, there were some things that we - a public option should have been in that. That was - Joe Lieberman killed that.
There are a couple things that we could have gotten in there. I think if Scott Brown hadn't won, and we had a lot more flexibility to - to re-craft it. But we got what we got. The thing is, is we lost big in 2010.
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: We lost the House. In 2014, we lost the Senate because of healthcare.
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: 2018, they lost because of healthcare.
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: And there's a reason for that. And the reason is people, they can get rid of - they can put back lifetime caps.
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: They can put annual caps.
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: They'll get rid of Medicaid expansion. That's what they had in that bill. Let me tell you something about Medicaid expansion. Here are the last three states, by referendum, to approve Medicaid expansion, Idaho, Utah, Nebraska. This is--
CUOMO: And what does that tell you?
FRANKEN: It - Medicaid expansion is incredibly popular when--
CUOMO: Except it was politically weaponized and Republican Governors wanted to not do it, if they could, as a way of rejecting the ACA.
FRANKEN: Well this is how we won the Governorship in--
CUOMO: That's right.
FRANKEN: --in Kentucky. The--
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: It's - Kansas just adopted it, not by referendum of the Governor and the legislature.
CUOMO: Right.
FRANKEN: It's incredibly popular. When - when they dropped their bill, that would have - 23 million Americans would have lost their healthcare. Part of what they were going to do is defund. There was going to be no Medicaid expansion.
I went to Red counties in Minnesota. I went to rural hospitals. At those rural hospitals, I - I had these town meetings. People were crying. This is what Medicaid expansion did. This--
CUOMO: Yes. It's life or death for them. Other than mostly paying for your mortgage, or your rent, this is the biggest nut in most people's lives, if you're healthy.
FRANKEN: This is what Medicaid expansion did in rural America. These hospitals now had far less uncompensated care.
CUOMO: That's right. FRANKEN: Meaning when someone comes into the emergency room, they had no insurance at all, the hospital aided.
CUOMO: That's right. Now, they didn't have to aid this way.
FRANKEN: Now they have Medicaid--
CUOMO: That's right.
FRANKEN: --now the hospitals had a lot more money.
CUOMO: That's right.
FRANKEN: What could they do? They could get more doctors.
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: More technicians, more machines, more nurses.
CUOMO: It's in the research. It's in the data.
FRANKEN: And they did that, and they became the largest employer in the county. They could do healthcare, you could get - your mom can get healthcare at home. I had a couple that was crying because they didn't know what they would do with her mom.
CUOMO: I hear you. Let me ask you something. One, this is not what your people are arguing right now, just so you know. This is not the way they're arguing it.
FRANKEN: Well we'll get a nominee, and that's the way they should be arguing--
CUOMO: But we'll--
FRANKEN: --might - might do.
CUOMO: --we'll see. We'll see. The question is will Bernie change his positions if it's him. Can Joe Biden make the case if it's him?
You make the case very well. Do you miss being in the Senate?
FRANKEN: Yes, of course I do. I mean it was I could do stuff for - for people.
I could do like the medical loss ratio, I could do. That was a big thing. I could do small things like. Because of what I wrote into the reform of No Child Left Behind, foster kids no longer have to change schools, if they get a new foster family outside the district.
CUOMO: You made real things happen.
[21:35:00]
FRANKEN: So, these kids now can stay in the school that they want to stay because they have a great teacher that they love or they have a activity, a sport, or theater that they love, or they have these thing called friends.
And I just know there is some kid that is playing basketball now with his teammates, even though his foster family is in a different school district. I required them to get a ride, give the kid a ride.
CUOMO: It's the beautiful part of public service.
FRANKEN: Yes.
CUOMO: Let me ask you something about--
FRANKEN: And I'm continue - that's what I'm doing now, is trying to make a difference--
CUOMO: Right.
FRANKEN: --in a whole bunch of different ways.
CUOMO: And look and you can. It's just--
FRANKEN: Yes.
CUOMO: --regrettable when somebody who has that kind of passion for public service winds up having to exit it, not on their own terms.
The New Yorker comes out with an article, eight of the Senators who were against you are in this article saying they regret it, and they say that to different degrees, in fact, some go much further than that. We're going to put up the Senators names and the fact that they say it.
When you saw this, how did it hit you?
FRANKEN: Well I knew. Those eight had - had apologized to me. I mean they've done it privately.
CUOMO: But why apologize? They take a vote that goes against you and then they say they regret it?
FRANKEN: It wasn't a vote. It was--
CUOMO: Yes, right.
FRANKEN: --a letter, you know--
CUOMO: Right.
FRANKEN: --which they signed up for this thing to me.
CUOMO: Right.
FRANKEN: It's I appreciated them saying that they should have - give me due process. Well so and, you know, I am friends with - with them. And I am a forgiving person. And I was grateful that they said that in The New Yorker.
CUOMO: I am grateful that you took this opportunity.
FRANKEN: I am grateful to you.
CUOMO: Your voice is needed.
FRANKEN: As--
CUOMO: It is unusual, in your Party right now, to hear the way you're talking, based on the state of play. And you are welcome here anytime to help us make sense of the election going forward.
FRANKEN: I'll - I'll take you up on that.
CUOMO: And look, the podcast thing hurts, not going to lie, Al.
FRANKEN: It hurts.
CUOMO: Yes.
FRANKEN: I can't just find something you're expert on.
CUOMO: Oh! No, it's nothing. Forget it. Good luck going forward.
FRANKEN: You bet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CUOMO: All right, listen, Franken makes good points on the reality of healthcare reform within his Party and in government.
But his Party's got a bigger problem than policy purity right now. Did you see the show last night? A Biden supporter and a major Bernie Sanders surrogate got into a fight that is continuing today, and it does not bode well for the Party going forward.
Let's take a look, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:40:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: So, last night, I'm testing the Biden and Sanders camps on their perceived weaknesses in the general election. Then, this happened. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILARY ROSEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Don't use Martin Luther King against Joe Biden.
NINA TURNER, SANDERS CAMPAIGN CO-CHAIR: There is no tension, than then to deal--
ROSEN: You - you don't have that--
TURNER: First of all, nobody--
ROSEN: --you don't have that standing.
TURNER: --first of all - first of all, Hilary--
ROSEN: I'm sorry. You don't.
TURNER: You don't - don't tell me what kind of standing I have as a Black woman in America.
ROSEN: You - you because--
TURNER: How dare you?
ROSEN: You have a lot of standing as a Black woman in America.
TURNER: First of all, you're dipping into something that I have to say--
ROSEN: You don't have the standing to attack Joe Biden using Martin Luther King's words.
TURNER: --you need to - you need to - I did not interrupt you. I--
ROSEN: That's my point.
TURNER: I didn't attack anybody. You're taking it - you're taking it that way. Listen. Don't dip into what I have to say about the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. How dare you?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: Now, Nina Turner and Hilary Rosen, I know them both well. I consider them friends.
Nina was making the point that in the letter from Birmingham jail, that Dr. King was saying, "Listen, moderate Democrats, doesn't work moderation with social justice, you have to be all in." She was making the case that that's where we are now.
Hilary Rosen was saying "Don't paint Biden with that brush."
Now, since that moment, Hilary Rosen has apologized. I spoke to Nina. They are both invited back on to this show because not only do I want to figure out the debate about their perceived problems beyond this, but to talk about what this means about the state of play in the Party, and in this country.
What does this suggest, what you just watched, about what's to come in this primary? What a guest I have for you tonight! Mehdi Hasan, Columnist at The Intercept, and Inquisitor Extraordinaire.
Listen, I'm a fan of your work. You do it the right way. I wish I could be better at questioning the way you are.
MEHDI HASAN, SENIOR COLUMNIST, THE INTERCEPT: Oh!
CUOMO: So, thank you for joining.
HASAN: You're too modest, Chris, thanks for having me on.
CUOMO: I'm softening you up. How can you watch that and think that there is any chance that either one of those camps is on its way to victory in the general?
HASAN: It's a very good question.
And we were talking about when there was lots of candidates at play, and we were talking about contested conventions, Chris, remember that? If there's a brokered convention, then they're definitely going to lose. That was when there was multiple candidates in play.
As you point out, even with just two, if it's this bitterly-divided, and if it goes all the way, as it looks like it might, because none of us can predict what's going to happen next, given what's happened over the last few weeks, then yes, that's a problem.
An incumbent President tends to do well in U.S. elections precisely for this reason. They don't face challenges. They're able to kind of, you know, breeze into the election. Trump's raising lots of money.
And here, you have the Democrats, yes, starting to tear each other apart. And we saw it in 2016, and we're seeing it again in 2020.
I just hope it's about the issues and not, you know, about MLK letters and, you know, the - the apology today on Twitter from Hilary Rosen that got her even more trouble, where she talked about angry Black women.
I think - I would, you know, like a lot of people, I would like the arguments to be about the issues. I'm looking forward to the next Biden-Bernie debate where it's just the two of them.
CUOMO: Mehdi, you are too smart to believe that what's coming is going to be policy-oriented.
I thought you and I were going to go back and forth tonight about the reality of single-payer, and where your Party needs to be, and whether Biden has the energy versus Bernie has the position. Not now!
HASAN: Right.
[21:45:00] CUOMO: If you, on the Left, the Democrats, beat each other with this stick, you will not have it available against Trump. And he will remind, whoever, is the nominee, about this, and he will beat them with their own arguments that they're making right now.
HASAN: I mean that happens in every election, Chris, to be fair. I mean you have the primaries. You have - I mean, Donald Trump called Ted Cruz's wife ugly and said Cruz's dad killed JFK.
CUOMO: Yes.
HASAN: Cruz still campaigned for Trump and turned out for - nobody - nor that - Hillary Clinton didn't use that against Trump, maybe she should have, but she didn't use it against Trump. That - that was one of his surrogates.
I think, you know, at the end of the day, Bernie said a very important thing yesterday, where he said, "Look, if I lose, I'll be supporting Joe. And if Joe loses, he'll be supporting me." What - where--
CUOMO: And today, he tweeted that Biden has to apologize--
HASAN: Well--
CUOMO: --for what was said here. By the way, Hilary Rosen--
HASAN: But that's understandable, Chris.
CUOMO: --doesn't work for the campaign. She endorses him.
HASAN: Oh, but come on, hold on, hold on, Chris.
CUOMO: But she doesn't work for the campaign.
HASAN: Come on!
CUOMO: Yes.
HASAN: A lot of the "Bernie Bros" who are rightly accused of being toxic, or using bad language, they don't work for Bernie either. But the media and lot of the Democrat candidates insisted Bernie take responsibility for them.
So, I'm not sure why there's a double standard in play here. I think we need to be very clear. Let's be consistent. She may not work for the Biden campaign. But I think everyone needs to denounce bad things when they happen in this race, especially on a high profile prime time show, like yours.
CUOMO: You are exactly right. Well-argued, as expected.
So, now back to your main problem, which is what does this tell you about - you say "I hope it's going to be about the policy."
If you think about it, Mehdi, it can't be. These two camps are so ideologically opposed. And it is I - how do you see it going this way instead of going this way, as you get closer and closer to the Convention.
HASAN: It's a good question. And I think you're right to say it's not going to only be about policy. I mean it shouldn't only be about policy. I think it should be mainly about policy but, you know, leadership matters too.
A lot of, you know, the question, if you asked - look at the exit polls on Super Tuesday. Democrats want someone who can beat Trump. The reason Biden is winning now is because he is perceived as the candidate who can beat Trump.
He got all that support on Monday night from all his former rivals, the "Establishment." He got support from actual ordinary grassroots Democrats, especially Black voters across the country, who said this is the guy who could beat Trump.
Now, that needs to be tested. He's now the front-runner again. When Bernie was the front-runner, that needed to be tested. It needs to be tested. Now, I'm worried he's not being tested. There's this weird assumption that yes, he - compared to Bernie Sanders--
CUOMO: You're right.
HASAN: --compared to Bernie Sanders, he's definitely the electable guy. Forget Sanders. Let's say--
CUOMO: You're right. That's what I was trying to do last night.
HASAN: Yes.
CUOMO: When this - this fight broke out.
HASAN: Let's say you hate Sanders.
CUOMO: In the middle of this thing. You know, that's what I was trying to do. I was trying to say "Each of you have perceived weaknesses."
HASAN: Oh, definitely.
CUOMO: "Let's see who deals with it better." But I, you know, I guess that central concern is you're right. Always the primary bruises you up, and someone uses it against you in the general.
But this issue, what they're talking about here, it's your fundamental high ground against Trump.
HASAN: Yes.
CUOMO: And you're giving it away.
HASAN: I think this - I mean my personal view of Biden is the problem with his candidacy, and there's many pros, but the many cons are that you give away a lot of things that you want to go after Trump about.
CUOMO: Fair point. HASAN: Whether it's kind of the perception of corruption, whether it's the whole family members' issue, whether it's the "How coherent are they?" issue, I think there's a lot of issues that you throw away there.
And I think the - the big problem with Biden is there's a sense - OK, he's the Establishment candidate. He's of course the more electable guy.
The problem is we, in the media, Chris, and of course Democratic Party Elites, if you want to call them that, are not very good at picking the electable guy. In 2000, Al Gore, how did that work out? In 2004, John Kerry, how did that work out? In 2016, Hillary Clinton, how did that work out?
It was actually an outsider with a funny name who, some people thought was from Kenya, who actually won the election last for the Democrats, who wasn't actually, at the time, perceived as the Establishment or the favorite candidate. He was seen as a - as a risky candidate, Barack Obama, in - in 2008.
CUOMO: Sadly, the President, up until very recently, was arguing that Obama may still have some problems with where he's from. That's the state of play. Even though--
HASAN: Right, Donald Trump wants to impeach Barack Obama.
CUOMO: That's right.
HASAN: You can't really impeach private citizens.
CUOMO: That - that's--
HASAN: There you go.
CUOMO: Well don't - don't let the facts get in the way of - of a good barb.
The word "Establishment" is even going to wind up coming into sharp focus within this Party because it's going to be used by Trump against the Party as well.
Mehdi, make me a promise. Mehdi Hasan, you are so smart. You are so good on these things. Please, be a regular for me. When you are available, come on, so that we can get your acute focus on the state of play and where you think it's going, and why.
HASAN: Chris, I would love to, and I would also love to you get - I would also love to see you get Joe Biden on this show, and put some tough questions to him.
CUOMO: Me, too! Help me out, brother. Help me out. All I can do is ask.
HASAN: Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: But you know why they don't come. Everybody picks safe harbors these days.
I got to go. You are always welcome here, Mehdi Hasan. Check out what he does. The man can take people down. They don't even know they're bleeding till it's over.
Alabama just executed Nathaniel Woods. You know that? You have been following this story? There were real questions about the facts, certainly the punishment. Question, why is Trump pushing for more executions, specifically right now?
[21:50:00]
I argue this move is a window into what he sees as great and you should see as a great mistake, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: OK. There's so many in this country right now worried about their actual health.
And what's our President doing? He's lying. He's distorting the reality. He's playing politics that this is another perfect move. He literally said "Like the transcript with Ukraine." Really, as we count the dead, as we worry?
[21:55:00]
Why? He has a penchant for playing on problems to advantage. He seems to want to remind us of prejudices and animus. He seems to want you angry. And he just gave you a really ugly example that is anathema to American greatness.
You may have heard. A man was just killed because of a policy in this country that exists in few other civilized countries, the death penalty. And the President just announced he and his A.G. want to do it more. Why? I argue, for all the wrong reasons, once again.
That man who was killed, his name was Nathaniel Woods. Here's his daughter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMESE WALKER, DAUGHTER OF NATHANIEL WOODS: The man who did it, he confessed. So, I don't see how my daddy get the execution and he don't, when my dad is innocent? How can you sleep at night knowing you killed an innocent man, you took him away from his family?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: The man who pulled the trigger says the other man had nothing to do with it. He was just put to death. The man who pulled the trigger is still alive.
Her father died by lethal injection 24 hours ago in Birmingham. He was convicted in 2005 of being an accomplice in the murder of three police officers. That's not in dispute. But he didn't pull the trigger. And, again, the gunman says Woods didn't have a gun, and ran away when the firing began.
Alabama is one of 25 states that still uses, actively, the death penalty. Federally, it's still on the books. 60 people are currently sitting on federal death row. And some are certainly worthy of your greatest contempt, Charleston Church Shooter, the survivor - surviving Boston Bomber, monsters, the worst of us. No doubt about it.
But what does it say about us that capital punishment is still the rule in this country? And that President Trump and his A.G. want to do more after nearly a two-decade hiatus?
See, and that's the key. Why has been it been hiatus? Support for the death penalty has been in the mid-50s for the past three years. Hasn't been that low since 1971. Why?
Lots of reasons. It doesn't work. It doesn't deter. We've evolved, or I thought so. And also, we're uncomfortable with the message that killing can be OK.
You need proof? Look at the company that we keep. Look at the chart right now on your screen. In 2018, the United States had the seventh most executions in the world, behind China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Vietnam, and Egypt. Is that the company you want to keep?
So, you have Justin Amash and Ilhan Omar introduce a bill to end federal executions, and the President says "No, let's double down." Amash nudged Speaker Pelosi to bring it to the floor just minutes after the Woods' execution.
Why are we doing this? Let's talk about it. It rarely satisfies victims' families. Go out and check. I have interviewed many. Do you really want a social instruction in brutality that this is us at our best?
Trump does. He loves all of it. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: The only way to solve the drug problem is through toughness.
When I was in China, and other places, by the way, I said, "Mr. President, do you have a drug problem?" "No, no, no, we do not." I said "Huh?" Big country, 1.4 billion people, right? Not much of a drug problem. I said "What do you attribute that to?" "Well, the death penalty."
I think it's a discussion we have to start thinking about. Don't you agree? I don't know if you're ready.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CUOMO: You want to kill drug addicts? Seriously? And they applaud?
China, the country with so many, it's a state secret how many they kill. Boy, he loves that authoritarian muscle. "Might makes right! Killing in the name of justice!"
I thought only God decides who lives and dies. Isn't that the pro-life argument? Eye for an eye now though? Old Testament justice! Certainly wasn't Jesus' message. What about loving mercy?
This is not what America represents around the world. It is what Trump represents. It's what - what he's always been about.
"Bring Back The Death Penalty. Bring back our police!" That's the ad he took out in 1989, two weeks after the Central Park Five were arrested, hadn't been convicted, later exonerated.
It shows the thinking behind Trump's love of the death penalty. Situation raises a question that shadows our politics and our current state of affairs. What are you about? Are you about fairness under law? Are you about being better than what you oppose?
Now, look, if you were to hurt my kid, I would find you, and I would hurt you. You know why? Because I am flawed, and that is me at my worst. Is that what you want the social instruction to be? The nadir of my humanity?
We should not reflect what we are against. The countries that kill are the countries that we say we are against. Think about it.
All right, that leaves us with the argument for tonight.
