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Cuomo Prime Time
At Least 158 U.S. Coronavirus Cases, 11 Deaths; Super Tuesday Shifts The Reality Of The 2020 Field; Sanders Hits Biden For "Establishment" Support. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired March 09, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: As a teenager, I watched Bobbie Battista, dreamed of working at a place like CNN. She is remembered here with love and respect. And our thoughts are with her family and her friends. Thank you Bobbie for all you did for this network. Bobbie Battista was 67 years old.
And that's it for us. The news continues. Want to hand it over for Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: The best thoughts to her family. Anderson, thank you for that. I'm Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
Finally, the CDC has green-lighted more testing. Now the question is how long is it going to take to get the full facts of what we're dealing with in this country?
Tonight, we're going to show you the reality. Someone in one of the epicenters of the outbreak, she's been sick after possible exposure. She's self-quarantined. We're going to talk to her in her home about what she and her aging parents are up against. This is the real deal.
In politics, what does Biden's good fortune mean for Bernie Sanders? We got one of his biggest backers, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez, here to argue the case.
And did you hear the President just - he just demanded action against Senator Chuck Schumer for making almost exact comments that he has made about the Supreme Court? He says we must enforce civil society. Trump should start with himself! There is a sickness spreading in our politics. This one has a cure.
So, what do you say? Let's get after it.
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CUOMO: All right, Coronavirus, let's keep you in the latest, all right? 158 cases now in the United States, death toll 11, 10 in Washington State alone, now another death recorded in California. Worldwide, this is a scary number, OK?
The WHO puts the mortality rate at 3.4 percent. I'm not sold on any of these numbers. Why? The same reason in each instance, inadequate testing.
Start with the worldwide rate, testing is very uneven in different countries. Some places are showing only the worst cases that involve compromised and elderly folks. Dying is more likely there, just like with the flu that we're dealing with here right now.
Other places, like South Korea, why do they have a fraction of the mortality rate? Because maybe they're testing a lot more, so you're seeing a different range of outcomes, all right?
That's why we've been on the White House about slow-walking testing. It's not about Trump. Forget Trump. It's about the truth. You will know more about more cases. Sure, you may get some false positives. So what? The case number is not the concern. That's politics, OK?
We have 300,000-plus cases of flu right now, and growing. You worried about that? No. You see what I'm saying? The outcomes are what we worry about. You will see people overwhelmingly beat Coronavirus. It's serious. But it's not something out of a movie. Thankfully, the CDC broadened its guidelines for testing finally. So
now, anyone who has symptoms like real fever, you know, real cough, difficulty breathing, you can go and get testing if a doctor agrees.
The House just passed $8.3 billion in Coronavirus response. That package should help prevent spending - spreading, once it gets approved, all right? Goes to the Senate, could be signed by the President by Friday, let's see if they get it done. We'll stay on them if they don't.
This should have happened a month ago. Remember, this is not going to end tomorrow. The economy is going to feel effects. The markets are going to react to news, like United Airlines cutting flights because of a sharp drop in demand. You're going to see it.
Still, our focus has to be the best information. You must have it, OK? And we must make sure all is being done to get us through this ASAP.
Three very important people to do exactly that, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Dr. Zeke Emanuel, and Ron Klain dealt with the public policy aspect of the Ebola situation for President Obama.
Gentlemen, thank you. Sanjay, as always.
Testing availability, they say "We relaxed it. There'll be more." What does that mean in reality of getting new numbers and dealing with the spread?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well I think the real answer is "We'll see" because we're hearing a lot of claims so far.
But what they're telling us, and I spent some time at the White House today with the Vice President, talking about this specifically, about a million and a half kits are going to go out at the federal level to all these various hospitals around the country.
In addition, university hospitals and state hospitals should be able to start testing. And within time, some of the commercial labs, like Quest, you know, labs that you're more familiar with in your community, the Vice President told me, should be able to start testing at some point as well.
So, it's - it's going to ramp up. I think it was an acknowledgement in some ways of - of, frankly, what you and I have been talking about that there has been inadequate testing.
Only 500 people have been tested roughly in the United States compared to thousands - tens of thousands around the world. I think they're acknowledging that. I mean I think there's been this shift now with regard to testing.
CUOMO: Politics aside, let's give them the benefit of the doubt. You know I don't buy it. I see politics all over this. But let's put it to the side. Is it about capacity? Can we not handle the cases?
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GUPTA: No. Well that's a - that's a good question. I think in terms of the testing, we can certainly get this - this testing out there.
The question, you know, according to the modeling, and - and we have some data to show this, what happens if suddenly you get a - even a mild to moderate pandemic in this country? How many people are going to be in the hospital? How many people are going to get sick?
We have some of those numbers we saved--
CUOMO: Yes. Put them up.
GUPTA: --we saved. So--
CUOMO: Sanjay's got the numbers.
GUPTA: So, there you go. You could see on the left, you get the mild to moderate, on the right, the very severe.
Just look at the moderate, 200,000 people needing intensive care units. We have about a 100,000 intensive care unit beds. And Zeke will comment on this, I'm sure, as well. They say about 70,000 - 65,000, 70,000 people will need to be on breathing machines.
Well guess what? That's exactly how many we probably have in the country right now. And a lot of them are being used. I mean, hospitals in this country, Chris, aren't built for, you know, having a lot of redundancy.
CUOMO: So, there may be some challenges, which is why I get a little suspicious about the numbers, you know.
GUPTA: How do you take care of them? Right.
CUOMO: I'd rather though deal with the reality.
All right, so Zeke, help me out with this - on this front contextually with what we learned from the WHO. I don't want to falsely underestimate things. We're in the business of accurate information.
But when you look at the testing distinctions among the countries, you know, I get why they went with that high rate, I mean, better safe than sorry.
But you're only hearing in so many of these countries about the worst cases. That's going to give you a bogus denominator. I mean even, you know, Dr. Anthony Fauci keeps saying that to us.
DR. ZEKE EMANUEL, FORMER WHITE HOUSE HEALTH POLICY ADVISER UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: You have a degree in health policy or public health, obviously because that--
CUOMO: No. But I stayed in a Holiday Express Inn last night.
EMANUEL: That's exactly right, which is we don't know what the true denominator is.
CUOMO: Right.
EMANUEL: And so, reporting the death rate as high is probably inaccurate. And most Infectious Disease experts think it's below one, maybe about half a percent. That's still a very high number. I mean, as Sanjay has said in--
CUOMO: Yes.
EMANUEL: --previous episodes, you take a high number of people with infection, even if it's a low death rate, that gets you to a very high number that need medical attention and that could die. And I think that is a scary number.
Let me just say, I talked to someone in Philadelphia, where I work at the University of Pennsylvania, who tried to get a test because he had been in Italy, and people were, you know, "You've been in Italy, you shouldn't come in," he couldn't get the test today.
CUOMO: Yes.
EMANUEL: I talked to an emergency room doctor in Seattle. There were 300 tests available in Kings County, and they still haven't heard the word when they're going to be able to actually use their judgment to order a test and the test will be freely available.
So, I think the promise that Steve Hahn, Head of the FDA, made on Monday that we'll have a million tests by the end of the week out there, is certainly not being fulfilled. And again, I think this is a point that I've made that Sanjay has made, that Ron's made is, you know, we had time from January to today to get ready--
GUPTA: Yes.
EMANUEL: --to get the testing ready, to get our hospitals--
CUOMO: Yes.
EMANUEL: --ramped up, to get surge capacity lined up, and to think about all the equipment we needed. And it doesn't look like that was done. And bad judgments were made by the CDC on which test to use, restricting the actual people--
CUOMO: Right.
EMANUEL: --who could get tested, and that has given us a false number, as you said, a false number of how many people have the virus, and a false number of how many people died from it.
CUOMO: Right. Because see, you know, look, obviously we're going to be focused on who dies, Ron.
EMANUEL: Right.
CUOMO: I mean that's just human nature.
RON KLAIN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE EBOLA CZAR UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA: Yes.
CUOMO: But when you learn that so many more are going home, I think there's a comfort effect in that, and at least it gives the media the ability to report both numbers, if they're acting in good faith.
Now, the good news about the delay is it's OK because it's all your fault. President Trump came out and did what he did best, and blame any problem he has on somebody else. "Obama! Obama screwed it all up."
Put the politics to the side. Again, I know that's not true. We've all done the homework. Forget it. We're living where we are right now.
Masks, OK, we keep telling people, Anthony Fauci, everybody else, if you're sick, you need a mask. If you are not sick, don't worry about the mask. It's not just about making a policy judgment. It's about whether or not professionals have the equipment that they need because it's getting sold out.
How real is that, Ron?
KLAIN: Look, I think it's real. And I think it's not just masks, right? It's we talked about tests, we talked about masks. It's also about equipment for hospital workers to be protected.
You know, this disease, one thing testing will do is it will bring patients into the healthcare system. That means the doctors and nurses who treat them have to have protective gear.
We're going to have to have protective gear in hospitals all over the country because this is going to spread all over the country.
We're going to have to have enough protective gear for all those doctors and nurses. We're going to have to have the ability to take the gear on and take that gear off and all these things.
So, this is a giant logistics challenge. Testing is kind of the tip of the iceberg that we've seen. But once we get people tested, it's not just a numbers game, Chris. It's a question of then getting those people into treatment. And once they get into treatment--
CUOMO: If they need it, right.
KLAIN: --if they need it, and once they get into treatment, I mean the numbers that Sanjay put up earlier, about 10 percent of them--
CUOMO: Yes.
KLAIN: --needing hospitalization, that's a lot of hospitalizations. That means we're going to need a lot of resources and planning and execution in our hospitals.
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CUOMO: Right. And look, what I have up here is now this is the number that Sanjay was trying to contextualize for you earlier is that you're going to get numbers, you're going to meet and then exceed capacity. That's something we're going to have to deal with. The nursing homes are a big concern.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: The person who's coming up next, on the show, this is how it started for her. She's there in Washington, in Kirkland. She can't see her mom now. She's not getting good information.
Supposedly, they are going to release new guidelines, what are they, and do you have confidence in this?
GUPTA: Well I think that the big thing is this recognition that, first of all, elderly people are obviously more at risk, much more at risk.
If you look at some of the data coming out of Italy, they say people who died, median age was 80 years old. So - and nursing home is where older people typically are. We've obviously seen what happened in Washington State.
So, put those two things together, and they say we got to focus on nursing homes. And what it's going to mean, I think, and again, we - I talked to some of the folks at the White House about this today, it's going to be harder to visit nursing homes.
You may - you may get screened if you want to go visit somebody in a nursing home. You may get screened before you go into the nursing home, things like that to try and keep people who are most at-risk safe, and - and nursing homes are where they are.
So, that's an example of some of these policies that are going to change. The focus in nursing homes has long been on things like abuse and quality of care, which it will remain.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: But the idea of infectious disease protocols within nursing homes is now going to move to the top of the list. They're going to really make sure that that infectious disease protocols are followed--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --to try and keep the Coronavirus out.
CUOMO: I'm OK with that. That's the smart thing to do. What I don't like is them not giving information about the people inside their facilities to the family who needs to know, and now, can't get in there.
GUPTA: That's right.
CUOMO: Because if - you've taught us so many times, and anybody who have elderly parents knows, you got to be their advocate. And if you don't know the information, it's scary.
One of the tips we've all been had is "Hey, you want to shake hands, you want to do all that stuff, be a little spare on it."
So, in deference to Sanjay, although I'm not really a big fan of this, instead of - come on, wide now, let them see that I'm actually doing, all right. You don't have to shake hands right now. You can do something else to show affection.
GUPTA: You said - but you say only--
CUOMO: Don't worry about what I said.
GUPTA: OK.
CUOMO: So, Sanjay Gupta, Zeke Emanuel, and Ron Klain, thank you very much for giving us some context for this situation. You know, your minds, your experience will help people keep a focus on what matters, so thank you. God bless all of you for being with me tonight.
Now, everything there just talked about to you is playing out in Washington. Imagine how worried, how freaked you'd be if you got hit with Coronavirus, be honest, even though everybody's telling you, you'll be OK if you're not old, and don't have an underlying condition.
Imagine if it was your family. Now imagine if it's both. You're going to meet somebody in the home where they're quarantined, dealing with the known and the unknown. What a situation playing out in Washington? You'll see it firsthand, next.
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CUOMO: To know the reality, you got to show the reality. In this country, no place has been hit as hard by Coronavirus as Kirkland, in Washington State. Now, specifically this Life Care Center, a nursing home, has emerged as an epicenter for the outbreak.
Six of the 10 deaths in the state have been tied to the facility. Dozens of others, residents, staff, members, visitors, are now on watch, because they may have been exposed to the virus.
Karen Goheen is who you're going to meet. Her mother's in there. She visits her all the time. Now she can't, and she's not getting a lot of information about her mother's condition.
Her father is also elderly. He seems to have been exposed. He's in the hospital now with bad symptoms. Her sibling tested positive for Coronavirus.
Now, she has a fire - fever that spiked over 104, so she has self- quarantined, and hasn't been tested. Here's what she has to say.
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CUOMO: Karen Goheen, can you hear me OK?
KAREN GOHEEN, IN SELF-QUARANTINE AFTER VISITING KIRKLAND, WASHINGTON NURSING HOME, MOTHER LIVES IN NURSING HOME TIED TO CORONAVIRUS OUTBREAK: Yes.
CUOMO: Well I must say you look well, thank God, because I know that you're dealing with some tough symptoms, where you're at home, you've decided to quarantine yourself, you're a nurse, so you understand best practices.
How do you feel?
GOHEEN: Well it's up and down, so like this morning I didn't feel like I had a fever. And then this afternoon, and I started chilling, and now I have a fever of 101.5. So, even though you say I look good, you know, I'm not really feeling all that great.
CUOMO: Both of your parents are in a - an elderly facility, and you go to visit them. They're basically healthy. But that's what you're really concerned about. You didn't want to talk to me about you.
GOHEEN: Right.
CUOMO: You say you're going to be fine. But you're worried about them. GOHEEN: Right.
CUOMO: Give me the situation.
GOHEEN: Yes. So--
CUOMO: Why are you so concerned?
GOHEEN: Actually, my mom is the one that was in the facility. My dad was at home. He'd been taking care of her before she got sick.
And then, he was visiting her every day in the facility, to keep her company, like you do with elderly people. You don't leave them all alone in a room to be lonesome. So, he was visiting every day for six to eight hours for 2.5 weeks. And then, when we found out, we couldn't go anymore.
And just a couple days, after that, my dad started exhibiting a fever. He wasn't eating or drinking. He was confused, and he's still confused and disoriented. He can't figure out why he's at the hospital.
CUOMO: It's interesting! You guys are concerned that you may have picked up the virus at the elderly facility. Your father's not well. He's in the hospital. You're not well. You haven't been able to get tested. We'll deal with that in a second. You got a sibling who has Coronavirus.
Your mother though, right now, they say, does not. Do you trust that information?
GOHEEN: I don't know what my options are. I can't go there to verify. But, you know, I have to believe them because she's in their care.
CUOMO: I know it's hard for you. I know just because you're a care provider, and these are your parents, and you know that they're fragile, I know that emotionally is this the most difficult part of this for you is the not knowing and not being able to go?
GOHEEN: Well yes not being able to be there to comfort my parents, to make sure they're getting the right care, I mean we've been at her bedside every day for weeks. And we have to encourage her to take fluids, and eat, and we've had to help with that, you know, like.
But if they're short-staffed, then are they doing that?
CUOMO: So, where are we in terms of you getting tested so you can know what the heck you have, and whether or not you got to stay at home, or you can go and do what you want to do?
GOHEEN: Well, Chris, you made an effort to help me get tested. I think you reached out to the Department - Washington State Department of Health, and Jay Inslee, to try to get me to be tested. They called me this afternoon. I'm happy to be tested.
[21:20:00] But you know there's people out there that are sicker than me. I know there's a shortage of - of test kits. I know there's people that may need to be tested because they're, you know, high-risk, so like I'm happy to get tested.
It's just I don't want to kick anybody out of the queue, you know.
CUOMO: One, I don't know--
GOHEEN: Like you say, I'm just feeling healthy.
CUOMO: --I don't know anything about - I don't know anything about what you said about us doing anything. I don't confirm or deny anything that we did.
GOHEEN: Oh?
CUOMO: But I will say this. You--
GOHEEN: Oops, sorry.
CUOMO: --are a typical nurse. You won't put yourself--
GOHEEN: Well--
CUOMO: --first, no matter what. I want you to give a message to the audience for me. Everybody is so worried--
GOHEEN: OK.
CUOMO: --about being in your position. What do you want people to know--
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: --about how you're doing, what this is like, and what you think they should feel, about prospects with Coronavirus.
GOHEEN: Don't panic. Coronavirus is potentially deadly in people that are immunocompromised and elderly. There is no treatment for it. So, even if you get tested, you know, they aren't going to give you the magic bullet because there isn't one.
So, if you're sick, stay home, self-quarantine. You have got to look out for the rest of the public.
CUOMO: And there's one thing I'm going to do that you're not going to like. I'm sending you stuff for at home. I don't care if you want it or not. I know you said not to, to the team that you don't need it, send it to other people.
Too bad! God bless, feel better soon, the best to your entire family, thank you for talking to us.
GOHEEN: Thanks. Thanks for helping educate the public.
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CUOMO: Boy oh boy, I have to tell you, someone dealing with such bad things, in so many different ways. But, at the same time, Goheen is representing us at our best. We wish her well. We'll stay in touch. We'll let you know how it goes.
All right, now, let's test what the Biden bounce means for Bernie. We lived a Super Tuesday for the history books last night. Joltin Joe indeed, Biden taking like what 10 of the 14 states after being seen as all but done?
It's now a new race with new realities that you can see if the number - in the numbers, if you know where to look. Guess who does? The Wizard of Odds, next.
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CUOMO: All right, it was one of the largest presidential fields in history. You had 25 people got into this thing, 21 now out, but the game has totally changed.
The Wizard of Odds is here to tell us how and why. Thank you for being with me last night, or early in the morning, and now here again. We didn't think it was going to happen, but it did. How did it happen?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER & ANALYST: Yes. I mean, look at this. This, to me, is so telling, Joe Biden in the dark blue here on your screen. And I just want you to look how well he did throughout the entire country, right?
Look at this. He won in the South. He won in the Midwest. He won in New England folks, Maine, Massachusetts, Elizabeth Warren's home state, and he was able to do it by putting together a coalition of African-Americans in the South, White working-class voters, as well as Whites with a college degree.
Really the only weaknesses for him was out here in the West, where essentially he did not do particularly well with Latinos, as well as young progressives.
CUOMO: How real is - I know I'm going to the negative.
ENTEN: Yes.
CUOMO: But how real is the challenge with Latinos or the challenge geographically in the West?
ENTEN: Look, most of the contests in the West are done. That's one thing that's important, at least the ones that are really assigning a lot of the delegates. I will say with Latinos, he did better with them in Texas, where they tend to be more conservative. It tends to be more of a Western problem with Latinos.
CUOMO: Right.
ENTEN: I think the young problem isn't necessarily going away anytime soon. But he's doing so well with older voters that you know what, it cancels it out more so.
CUOMO: Right. Now, Bernie did kill it along here with - with the Latinos on this belt right here. It was Biden winning in these White suburbs that would make Trump very nervous about that.
All right, so now in terms of just to make Harry's point, the March map, you'll see, it's not going to be as much about the West, although Arizona is going to - have to be something that he's very sensitive not to lose.
ENTEN: Right.
CUOMO: But the big prize would be Michigan.
ENTEN: But - the big prize is Michigan. And you know what, that Minnesota win last night, you know, that he got and he ran up the score there, I think, tells us a lot about Michigan.
Michigan, of course, has a lot of people, like in Minnesota, White working-class voters, the suburbs as well, but it also has African- Americans that he's done particularly well at.
And, you know, if you just look at the map last night, and those conditions hold, I got to be honest with you, something has to change. If nothing changes, Biden is really going to run with the score, Florida.
Remember how well he did last night in Alabama and--
CUOMO: So, what has to change? What's the theory of the case for Bernie? In terms of momentum, what we saw was late-deciders.
ENTEN: Yes.
CUOMO: Harry was brilliant about this all night, is that Klobuchar and Buttigieg get out. I said to him last week, I don't know if you'll remember, I don't think it's enough time, and he who says remember Newt Gingrich in 2012, and he was right.
Obviously, people who broke late, 30 percent, 40 percent of people said they broke late, look at the numbers you got. ENTEN: I mean, this is a huge margin. 47 percent to 17 percent, and this has been a problem for Bernie Sanders all along, is he gets those people who decide early, but those people deciding late tend to go against him, and Biden was able to ride that wave of momentum coming out of South Carolina.
CUOMO: With no money.
ENTEN: With no money, folks, no money. He won states that he didn't even visit that he had no ads on the air, and it was crazy. And that just gives you an indication of how the late-deciders are determining this contest, and momentum means everything right now in this primary.
CUOMO: Harry, thank you very much, well done.
ENTEN: Shalom, be well.
CUOMO: We'll test it now, what does this mean for Team Sanders. Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Star Surrogate for Sanders, here, to make the case to you that you should feel the Bern more than ever.
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CUOMO: Zero quit in Bernie Sanders. He's coming right for Biden, doubling down on who and what he's up against.
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SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Joe is running a campaign, which is obviously heavily supported by the corporate Establishment.
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CUOMO: The former VP, quick to respond.
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JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The Establishment are all those hardworking middle-class people, those African American voters, single women in suburbia, they are the Establishment. (END VIDEO CLIP)
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CUOMO: All right, new normal, as we all learned in Thunderdome, two enter, only one can leave. Let's bring in one of the Senator's biggest big-name supporters, Democrat from New York, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
Welcome back to PRIME TIME.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Thank you for having me.
CUOMO: So, what do you think? Lessons learned? Adjustments?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well I think there's a lot that - that happened on Tuesday. One thing that we know for sure is we have a great opportunity, right ahead, to expand on the Senator's strengths.
We're about to have primaries in the Industrial Midwest, where Bernie Sanders has had a tremendous record, and track record, on trade, where we are going to expand in our strengths with younger voters, with Latinos, but also with working-class voters.
Bernie Sanders beats Trump. And he's very strong with voters who make less than $40,000 a year, which by the way is 60 percent of the American public. So, we're really excited and reaching out to working families and championing the cause saying, "Yes, we are the stronger candidate against Trump - Trump.
And we can do so while advocating for a living wage, while addressing our climate crisis, by tackling our healthcare crisis in this country, and making sure that people aren't dying because they can't afford insulin in the United States of America."
CUOMO: Fair points all. Let's talk politics, and then we'll talk policies. Politics first, didn't happen last night, on two levels.
One, you saw Biden over-perform from what was expected. I mean, let's be honest, at this time, last week, there was a lot of talk about whether he'd make it through Super Tuesday.
Over-performed with people in the suburbs that you people need, over- performed with what we call White-working class people. You know, we both hate the demographics. But they are what they are. That's - those are the labels.
Why did he over-perform? How do you win back, especially in a place like Michigan, where Bernie Sanders must beat Biden?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well I think one of the things that we saw, and first of all, you know, of course we want to be good sportsmen in this process, and to congratulate the former Vice President on his performance.
But he over-performed because he had low expectations. And I think that's one thing that we have to clarify. It was kind of a last-minute consolidation of some of the more moderate and - and conservative Democratic candidates in the cycle, which happened right before this race.
CUOMO: True.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And for folks who are making that decision in the 72 hours before the race where you have these dramatic developments, that is compelling, but that is an event, and it is a moment, it is not necessarily a movement.
CUOMO: True.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Which is what the Senator has been building, not just over the past year but the - but over the past several years.
CUOMO: True again.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Also something to notice last night, his performance among Latinos will help put critical states in play in November.
CUOMO: Could.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Nevada, Arizona, Colorado, these are states that we need to be competitive, and the Senator - and Senator Bernie Sanders is delivering key constituencies that we need to win in November.
CUOMO: I agree with the criticism that there were low expectations. That is actually a matter of fact. Now, it has to be a concern for the Sanders campaign that so many people who broke late broke against him. That's not new.
What is new, 2016 versus 2020, is the idea of the movement, and I say it all the time, Congresswoman, that Bernie is the only one who's got a movement behind him, now the Biden people will beat me up for it, you know, whatever, that's the business, they didn't show up for you last night.
The young people who you are promising to the Party that you can bring in didn't come in anywhere. How do you explain that with any optimism?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well I think one thing that we have to see and one huge question is the largest prize of the night, which is California. And we are going to be having hundreds of delegates decided, which was the largest--
CUOMO: Yes.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: --prize yesterday, which Bernie Sanders won, not won by a little, won by a lot. We are going to see exactly what that lead looks like in the coming days.
CUOMO: Yes, we have to see. It'll take days. You know, it's hard to know.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Yes. CUOMO: He's certainly ahead. But you guys wanted like 60 percent of the delegates. You're looking at like 40, 45 right now. But let's play that out. Let's not play with the "Ifs."
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well we can't get too - too greedy sometimes.
CUOMO: Well, look, you know, it's a greedy business. You know what I mean? It's greedy - you need everything you can get because you're at a disadvantage--
OCASIO-CORTEZ: For sure, for sure.
CUOMO: --going into the Convention, and let's talk about why. Let's be honest about it here. The use of the word "Establishment," OK, I think the case can be made that you lost to Democrats last night, not the Establishment.
There are too many different demographics that came to play on Biden's side. You can't dismiss them all as part of the problem. So, you are injecting a progressivism into a Party that is mostly center-left.
First, let's talk about the language. Do you have to be careful about Establishment because you make people feel like African-Americans, like all the sudden, they're part of the problem?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well I do think that there's a kind of disingenuous conflating of what we mean.
CUOMO: Go ahead.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: The fact of the matter remains that Bernie Sanders is now the only front-runner in this - in this race that does not take corporate lobbyists' money. He does not take money from health insurers - health insurance executives.
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He does not take money from fossil fuel lobbyists. And he does not have closed-door - he does not have closed-door fundraisers with Elites. And - and I think that that is an important distinction.
Now, if you voted - if you did not vote for Senator Sanders last night, that doesn't mean you're part of the Establishment. And I think every American knows that Washington has - there's a very strong grip of special interests in Washington.
Bernie Sanders has a unique integrity. He has not bought and he has zero corporate lobbyists' money financing his campaign. That is--
CUOMO: You think Biden is bought?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: I think that there's a - there are real issues with where - where campaign money comes from. And I think it's not - it's not a secret.
This is how many of the - even swing district members won their races in 2018 because they do not take corporate PAC money. There are some that are very progressive. There are some that are very conservative.
But one of the through lines that we saw in 2018 was that if you won your race, you likely did not take corporate PAC money. It is a huge trust issue with voters, and I think that Bernie Sanders has that trust. What he says he will do everything he can to deliver.
CUOMO: I - I get you conceptually. I think it gets a little tricky for voters because they get caught up in the numbers. Sanders has such a massive money machine. You're right. Where it's coming from is different. That's fair point of distinction.
But the money story, right now, is that Biden had like $18.50 in campaign terms, right? He had like $2.2 million, spent $2 million in the last week. Bernie Sanders 10X-ed him, but didn't get it done.
Last point that I want for you, and you know you're always invited here to continue the case for the Senator. "Us versus them," I do not accept, at this point, the comparisons between Donald Trump and your candidate.
I don't think it's fair because one of them is pushing a malignancy in this country that division works. And Bernie Sanders, even at his worst, doesn't approach that.
But you guys do play the us-versus-them game, and it makes me wonder what you think the future is, at the Convention, because either you split off and do, like in Europe, where you guys are the Labor Party or the Green, you know, you have like a real other party or the us- versus-them thing, how does it not come back to bite you when you come to Convention time, when it seems like everybody else is part of your problem?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well one thing that I would say and that I hope, just for the sake of the Party overall, is that this does not get to a brokered Convention. I think that is really important. I think that hurts the nominee whoever that nominee is.
I think it's really important that the American people and that the Democratic electorate that the voters decide--
CUOMO: Bernie agree with that? Or is that AOC on her own?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well I think - I think, you know, overall I think that the Senator has reiterated his point that he believes that the person with the most delegates--
CUOMO: He switched the position, AOC.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: --should win.
CUOMO: We both know that. 2016, he was saying something different. Look, I get politics. I don't mean - I'm not beating up the Senator unfairly but--
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well I can tell you, Chris that--
CUOMO: --he changed it.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Well I can tell you, Chris that my opinion and how I feel is that we have to unite as a Party, and the way that we do that is by deciding our nominee at the polls.
It's extraordinarily important. Some things are bigger than a primary, and defeating Donald Trump is extraordinarily important. That's why I think Bernie's - supporting Bernie Sanders is very important.
He's - he performs better than Biden does, at the polls, against Trump. He performs better in the Industrial Midwest. And guess what? As we learned in 2016, you can get all the votes you want against Trump. If you don't get the Electoral College, we will not get the Presidency back.
CUOMO: That is true.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: We can get millions more votes than Donald Trump.
CUOMO: We got to get them in the right places.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: We need to win Michigan--
CUOMO: Yes.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: --Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, which are all the states that Bernie Sanders wins against Trump, and outperforms Biden in many of these states.
CUOMO: Well that's why--
OCASIO-CORTEZ: This is due to trade. This is due to immigration. This is due to a lot of different issues in which the Senator has exempt - has exemplified a commitment to working-class people.
CUOMO: I hear you. And the most important poll is going to come out next Tuesday.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Absolutely.
CUOMO: And we will see what happens in Michigan, and that rule really do a lot to shape the race. Every time there's an opportunity to discuss these issues going forward, you know you have a place here if you want it, same goes for the Senator. Congresswoman?
OCASIO-CORTEZ: And I deeply appreciate that.
CUOMO: Absolutely. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, the best to you and good luck to the candidate going forward.
OCASIO-CORTEZ: Thank you so very much.
CUOMO: All right, let's be very honest about it. Democrats are in a struggle. That is a sign of the times, the politics of disruption.
Andrew Yang knows what it's like in that arena. He and the Yang Gang were a surprise coalition in the 2020 race, around much longer than expected. He wants you to know where this could all end up, next.
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CUOMO: All right, so we just heard from a Congresswoman famous enough to go by her initials alone, AOC.
But now we have the man who was so resonant with you Americans that he had a gang pushing his presidential bid. The Yang Gang told us about the resolve for different results in this country. Andrew Yang is now on CUOMO PRIME TIME.
Great to see you. Welcome to the team. You heard AOC.
ANDREW YANG, (D) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.
CUOMO: The argument has stayed the same for Bernie. There is no shift. It's just "You'll see." Biden basically got lucky because he had low expectations. Is that the right resolve?
YANG: Well there's one major variable that we don't know, and that's what Elizabeth Warren decides to do this week because--
CUOMO: How big is that?
YANG: Because it's - it's potentially enormous because what happened in the moderate wing is that Pete and Amy dropped out, and endorsed Joe immediately, now Bloomberg has done the same. And so, there are - there's all of the support that has flown to Joe Biden over the last number of days, hours really.
And over, on the other side, you have Elizabeth Warren still fighting it out. It's an open question whether all of her support would flow to Bernie because I'm not sure if that's actually that it's the same type of dynamic and relationship as you saw in the moderate wing.
CUOMO: The experts say no, that there's an operative dynamic that's a little different that Warren has a significant amount of voters who would not go to Bernie necessarily, especially educated suburban White women.
[21:50:00] YANG: That - and this is the issue is that Bernie has been promising growth, growth of the revolution, and he needs to find a way to grow. And his greatest opportunity for growth is if he can somehow appeal to the voters who've been supporting Elizabeth Warren.
And obviously, if Elizabeth were to come forward, not just to - to suspend, but also to endorse Bernie, that could go a very, very long way. So, I know Elizabeth's campaign right now is reassessing what their path forward looks like. Tuesday night was a very, very tough night for her and her team.
But that, to me, is one of the greatest variables in the race right now, whether Elizabeth Warren decides to continue with her campaign. And if she does not, then what happens to her supporters, and how much sway does she have over where they go.
CUOMO: What would you do if you were she?
YANG: Well it's tough because - and I have to say, I'm just going to tell Elizabeth Warren's story. I'm a huge admirer of her as a huge fan. I got calls from most of the other candidates the night I suspended.
And Elizabeth had had a tough night herself in New Hampshire. It was not the result she'd wanted. But you never would have known it from her phone call to me. She was magnanimous, gracious, a real leader, like she's a tremendous individual behind the scenes.
She had the strongest debates, probably across the board, like people believed that. And so, if you're her, and you're a fighter, and your brand is around persisting, what do you do in this instance?
Conventional political wisdom would probably suggest that you drop out or it might even have been that you drop out before Massachusetts, your home state votes. But she's been one person who, in my mind, has not been bound by conventional wisdom.
CUOMO: It's going to be interesting.
Now, the next big checkmark is the debate. What do you think that shapes up as Bernie versus Biden?
YANG: I mean it clearly - so, there're, at this point, only two possibilities. It's Bernie versus Biden or it's Bernie versus Biden with Elizabeth Warren there playing some kind of intermediate role.
And even if Elizabeth is there, it's going to degenerate probably into Bernie versus Biden, because each of them, at this point, sees the other as the lone rival to the nomination. And, at this point, the dynamic between those two is getting established by their remarks where Bernie's being very overt in his criticisms of Joe.
Joe actually is doing a mixture of things. He's not really going after Bernie so much as he's going after Trump, which is a very smart general election pose. I mean like a lot of the people went to Joe because they're trying to
figure out who's going to beat Trump. And so, if Joe starts taking aim at Trump, which he's been doing, then that starts making you picture Joe as his general election opponent.
CUOMO: Yes, it's all - it's all very smart analysis. Look, what's - what's the dilemma? The dilemma is why are you better? That was easy for you. It's right on your lapel.
You know, you were introducing people, not just to the mandated income every - every month, but that we got to think about solutions. You don't see what's going on. You're playing a game. The rules have changed. You don't even know it because you're just happy to play the game.
That part is over with these two. These are old-school warriors in there.
YANG: Yes.
CUOMO: But who's better than Trump? If Bernie's getting hit with the "Us versus them," and Biden is getting the "You say it again, we're going to do push-ups mode," who's better than Trump? It's a big trick.
YANG: It is. And Bernie's case again was that they're going to activate a whole new group of voters. They were going to--
CUOMO: Yes, didn't happen last night.
YANG: And - and that's really the tough case to make is that if - if it's not happening thus far then what's going to change moving forward? Is there going to be some new dynamic that's going to help them grow? And, to me, again, the major variable is Elizabeth Warren.
CUOMO: I think that's a really interesting insight. I've been glossing over it a little bit because I assume she's going to stay in. But I'll tell you what. It was interesting to watch AOC finesse this point.
You can't keep calling Democrats the Establishment if you want them to vote for you, and African-Americans, you know, suburban men and women, working-class people came out for Joe. If you keep calling them the Establishment, you got a tough swing.
YANG: I agree.
CUOMO: Great to have you here. Your mind, the mentality you bring to it, and what was in your heart that drove you through it, means everything to people out there.
YANG: Thank you, Chris, thank you so much.
CUOMO: Yang Gang is real right now.
YANG: Yang Gang!
CUOMO: Thank you very much. Hey, I got a double BOLO for you tonight because I see something that really represents the worst and the best of the race that's around us. I'll give you both, next.
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CUOMO: All right, BOLO, Be On the Look-Out.
First, what you should not accept.
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SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): I want to tell you, Gorsuch, I want to tell you, Kavanaugh, you have released the whirlwind, and you will pay the price. You won't know what hit you if you go forward with these awful decisions.
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CUOMO: I don't like it, Senator, Minority Leader, Chuck Schumer. Look, I know Trump says the same crap. That's why it's wrong.
I get Schumer's concerns and many of yours about undoing Roe v. Wade. It's real. You're just not helping by appearing to threaten Justices. If you act like what you oppose, how are you any better? And that's not "Go high when they go low." That's reality.
Now, it drew a rare rebuke from Chief Justice Roberts, who not only called Schumer's comments inappropriate, but dangerous. But you know what? He's a problem too here. Why hasn't he said that about Trump?
He is the worst when it comes to respecting the Judiciary. He had the gall, Trump, to say action should be taken against Schumer that he wants to enforce civility. You want to enforce civility, Mr. President? This is easy. Start with yourself.
And they wonder why so many of you think so little of them. It's a problem. They should fix it.
Now, from worst to the best, not since the "President Bush Shoe Dodge" have I seen this kind of quick thinking and moxie. Did you see the reaction of the people around Biden, Jill Biden, the
Senior Adviser, Symone Sanders, when these lunging vegans, that's how they were described, stormed the stage last night?
