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Cuomo Prime Time

First Coronavirus Vaccine Volunteer On Clinical Trial; Healthcare Workers On Front Lines Of Coronavirus War; The Road Ahead As Coronavirus Shakes Up The Election. Aired 1-2a ET

Aired March 18, 2020 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[01:00:34]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to another special late night our have CUOMO PRIME TIME.

Every single state in the nation now has coronavirus cases. West Virginia was the last to report Tuesday. Now, we're all in. Why? Look, it was always going to go this way. All right. What to be worried about is how we handle what is to come and how we can reduce it before it hits us and overwhelms.

Now the numbers. You know what? Now's a good time. Vaughn, put up that chart for a second. Would you do me a favor?

We know we haven't been testing, okay. This chart is making its way all over the internet. Everybody is sending it to me with OMGs attached to it.

But here's my point. It suggests a false premise. January 21st, February 7th, look at the dates. They weren't testing. They weren't testing. And we know that the numbers are going up. It's spreading in the communities. That spike is like, you know, freaky. I agree with you, it's freaky, but it's out of context.

Yes, more and more cases. There are many more cases than they're telling us. Okay. It's not a secret. I'm not saying they're hiding information. We're just not testing. We're ignorant on this.

Now, here's the real problem. The real problem is not the growth rate of cases that we're handling, if you do what you're supposed to do if. I do what I'm supposed to do, by staying away from each other. That's why it's so important.

Look at Italy. Look at the messages they're sending us from Italy, about what they wish they had done weeks ago. And then if you need more impetus, then I don't know how to help you.

Capacity is going to be the issue. We're already at high capacity in hospitals all over the nation. So you know, you won't be able to handle what's coming. What are we supposed to do? Let's talk to a doctor who's going to be on the front line, California internist, Dr. Sam Fink. I mean, Doc, I've got to tell you, you know, this is for me, the only

frustrating part. We knew this would happen. We knew it would come. We knew it would spread in the community. We knew that the cases were not being represented fairly because there wasn't enough testing.

But they know they don't have capacity, and they know they won't have capacity, and I feel like we're not throwing everything at it. Am I missing anything from your perspective?

DR. SAM FINK, TREATED TWO COVID-19 PATIENTS: Well, I think what we're throwing at it is that we're really trying to flatten the curve by practicing good, effective social isolation.

And here's a problem we can all help. There aren't too many national problems like that, we can all do our part, the further we stay away, the less the case will be. That means they'll be doctors, hospital beds and ICU beds if you need them to take care of you. So that's why this is so important now.

We're ahead of Italy. Italy did not respond as quickly as we did. And it's really hard for any society to respond to a pandemic like this.

But I think we're going to be okay, I think we're doing the best job we can at this point. What we need to throw at it is social isolation. And we need more testing and hopefully that will come in the very near future.

CUOMO: Now, capacity, where does capacity fit in the mix for you? Am I overdoing it on capacity? Am I under doing it on capacity? You know, what do you think about it?

FINK: I can tell you in my local hospital right now, we're fine. I mean, I think that we're waiting what's to be and I think time will tell, but we've got to keep the number of cases down.

I know in other parts of the country, they are at capacity. So we're going to see that. And I think that if we watch all the areas of the country closely, and we effectively isolate, I think we can do that.

I mean, San Francisco, I think just a few hours ago, we announced that they were going to have a curfew for three weeks, in the areas that have a lot of cases. It's something we need to do. We all need to be supportive. We all need to be there. We all need to help each other.

CUOMO: What are your concerns?

FINK: You know, my concerns right now. You know, I tested a patient, one of my patients on Friday, here we are, we're Tuesday evening, and I still don't have the results. Testing is slow.

I have kits, but I'm not getting test results. My understanding is that will improve next week.

Right now Quest, which is a major laboratory is testing all the specimens even from the East Coast and the West Coast. That will change next week. If we get a better sense of who has got this, where they are, we're

going to do a better job, but I think that will come and I also get the sense that everybody is trying the best they can. I think we're going to get there.

CUOMO: Now, let's discuss your optimism. You've treated people with coronavirus. As you know, anticipation of something can be worse than the reality.

FINK: Yes.

CUOMO: People believe if you get this, you've got one foot in the grave and another one on a banana peel. What have you seen?

[01:05:14]

FINK: Right and we know that isn't true. The numbers right now, you have 100 people that get it, about 80 of them are going to be just fine at home. They may have nothing, just a simple cold symptoms, it may be a bit worse. Another 15 may end up in a regular hospital bed, and maybe five of those will end up in the ICU.

CUOMO: And another question I keep getting, so right now, you and I we are walking on the street together, okay, we're six feet apart. We're kind of walking here. I feel fine.

Two days later, I call you and I say, I've got this crazy fever and they tested me I have coronavirus. People feel like that's it. That's it. Fink is as good as done. He's got it, too. What's the reality of transmission?

FINK: I think the reality that if you're really walking together for a long way, yes, I would go in quarantine probably for about 14 days.

CUOMO: Even if I had no symptoms?

FINK: But you tested positive, correct?

CUOMO: I tested positive, but I had no symptoms when I was with you. I didn't cough on you. I wasn't doing that.

FINK: What we do know about this virus is that it is fairly contagious. So yes, I would take that precaution and isolate myself because I'm getting that you know, my child was in school, and one of his friends knew a friend who had it and it goes through many different levels of transmission.

I don't think we have to go that far. But I think if you're in direct contact with somebody that you knew had corona, you should self- isolate for 14 days.

CUOMO: Will you have the equipment that you need?

FINK: As far as hospitals, I'm hoping they do. For myself, now, I can tell you I was trying to get some N-95 mask, those are popular. I just spent $100.00 a box for a box of 20. So it's $5.00 a mask, so I'm trying to get whatever I can to run my office. I have stayed open through this, seeing patients that are not ill so that I can take care of other medical problems especially high blood pressure and diabetes.

CUOMO: How hard is it to get somebody a test? Doc, that's another thing we hear. I called my doctor. He said, I can't get you a test. She said, I can't get your test. You don't meet the protocol. I don't know how to do it. There are no tests.

FINK: Sure, and I can answer that. You know, my large Internal Medicine practice, right now I have about 15 swabs, and I will test those that really need to be tested.

Now, my worry is that when I send them out, I may not have the test result for three to five days. That's a problem. I think I can get the test kits. I don't know that I can get the results, but I'm hoping that will improve as soon as next week.

CUOMO: I call you, I say I've got 104 fever. My chest is killing me. It just reeks of coronavirus to you. Are you making a choice where look, I don't need to test you. You obviously have a problem. Stay home for two weeks. Let's monitor your situation. See if you have to go to the hospital. Does that warrant a test?

FINK: No. Because what I do in that situation and that only happened two or three times to me today, and I was doing this, you know, online, and you know, I did send one patient to the emergency room,.

If you've got 104, you're short of breath, your chest hurts, I'm sending you to the emergency room.

But the more common scenario, there's a low grade fever. You've got a dry cough and not feeling well, and I keep those patients home because it's not going to hit them right now in the current climate to self- isolate it home for 14 days anyway. So a test really doesn't give them anything.

CUOMO: What if I don't have a fever? But I have a little shortness of breath, maybe it's anxiety, maybe it's something else? My stomach isn't feeling right. Do you need the fever just to check the box that this could be corona?

FINK: No. And I thought about another case. In fact, that happened to me today as well. I've told patients, if you have any concern, isolate at home, because the other concern is what are you going to do? You're going to send them into the healthcare system, to the ER that's already pretty crowded. You may send them to a doctor's office.

So I'm trying to keep patients home if they feel ill. If they have the coronavirus, I don't want them to give it to anyone else, then if they don't -- I certainly don't want them to get it from somebody who else is there.

So that's how I'm handling it. And so far it seems to be going well and we'll see how it goes.

CUOMO: So you don't have to have a spooky high fever for an adult to have coronavirus?

FINK: I totally agree with you.

CUOMO: Well, no, I'm not saying -- I'm not a doctor. I'm asking it as a question that because people think if I don't have a fever, I'm okay.

FINK: You know, you cannot have a fever and still have coronavirus. I mean, fever is one of the signs, you know, you can have fever, dry cough, shortness of breath.

There can be other symptoms and patients have reported abdominal pain. The problem is right now in the community, we have influenza. We have colds.

CUOMO: It could be other things, too.

FINK: And it's so hard for any doctor to isolate.

CUOMO: Yes, I know. And now we're also paranoid. You know, like now here on the East Coast, it's allergy season, it is kicking in. You know, people are starting to feel you know tightness in the chest, and you know the stuff we used to call hay fever and all of that stuff.

And everybody is so scared by the unknown, that I can't tell you, Doctor, how reassuring it is to get sober answers from somebody who has seen it like you, Dr. Sam Fink. Thank you very much. I appreciate you for your information and the way you're delivering it as well.

FINK: Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.

CUOMO: All right, God bless. Stay safe and thank you for healing the rest of us.

All right, next guest. What a great story. She took a shot for you. The healthy woman who was the first to test out a trial of a potential coronavirus vaccine. Why did she do something like that? She'll tell you why, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CUOMO: On CUOMO PRIME TIME, we're going to start doing something new. We're going to keep track of Americans and Americant's. An American as somebody who's going out of their way to make a difference in this situation, an American't, you know what that means.

My next guest is an American, and then some, her name is Jennifer Haller.

She recently became the first person injected with a trial coronavirus vaccine. Brave, right? Meet her right now.

CUOMO: It's great to have you on PRIME TIME. I want to thank you for what you're doing. You are the picture of surrendering the me to the we. The only question that matters is the first one. How are you doing? JENNIFER HALLER, FIRST CORONAVIRUS VACCINE VOLUNTEER: I'm doing

great. I feel -- I feel great.

[01:15:10]

CUOMO: Now, what did they tell you is going to happen here one way or the other? So they give you a potential vaccine. Now, what is in the vaccine? Is it like dead forms of the virus? Or is it live forms of the virus? What did they put in you?

HALLER: Yes, that's a great question. And it's been very, very helpful for me to explain that to people so they can be less worried about it.

But this vaccine uses messenger RNA, so there is no element of the virus in this vaccine. Scientists can explain that better to you. So there's no risk -- there is no risk to me of contracting the virus through this study. There is no risk to people around me that in fact throughout the whole process of the study, I will never be exposed to the virus. I mean, maybe in real life, but --

CUOMO: Okay, so that's all good. I mean, you may be exposed to the virus based on how you live your life or somebody comes into contact with you that you didn't know wasn't supposed to, but we get it.

It's not in the vaccine. So what is the potential downside for you other than the anxiety of this process?

HALLER: Yes, you know, there's the usual vaccine kind of potential side effects. You know, soreness at the site of injection, fever, chills, nausea, things like that. And I actually have not experienced those at all so far.

In fact, my arm feels better than it has with a previous flu shot. So you know, of course, there's the big one, right? This has never been tested on a human before. But I'm doing great. Everything's good.

CUOMO: A little bit of levity in these situations always helps. Everybody is afraid of so many different things. So your arm is feeling better. Any signs of super strength?

HALLER: Yes.

CUOMO: Your ability to run faster than you could before?

HALLER: You know --

CUOMO: Could you tell me what I am thinking right now? Anything like that?

HALLER: Yes, I'm got my fingers crossed. I know I have a lot of friends that are very hopeful that this may turn into some kind of a superpower. But so far, I haven't noticed anything.

CUOMO: Any idea once they start the lotteries again what the numbers might be? I am a phone call away. I'll split it with you, 80/20, seems fair.

So, let's talk about why you did this, okay? Because I don't care what they tell you about what's in the needle or not in the needle. You know, you're going to have to go through different protocols, you're going to have to expose yourself to things and you're going to have to isolate yourself in a way during this process. Why?

HALLER: Oh, well, to correct you. No isolation and I'm free to live my life as I normally would. Although, you know, that's completely changed.

CUOMO: You're isolating anyway, but don't you have to do things every day like I mean, how does it work for you? Is it just one and done, and you just wait to see what happens with the shot?

HALLER: Yes. No. So it's very controlled. So I got my first shot yesterday morning and a follow up phone call today, a follow up phone call tomorrow.

I will go back in for a blood draw in a week and one more week after that, and then four weeks after yesterday, I will go in for the second dose and do that process again. And that's it.

There are a handful additional visits for blood draws over the next 14 months. But besides that, there's nothing that it.

CUOMO: There's nothing that you're not allowed to do that you would otherwise do in your life. You can do everything you ordinarily would do.

HALLER: Yes, that's correct. I can -- well, you know, I cannot start taking any new drugs or I can, if I need to, but that needs to be reported. But I am not planning on that.

CUOMO: And did they tell you anything under the like, that God forbid category of just normal life right now in the State of Washington. There is high exposure, a lot of cases.

If you were to get sick with anything or with coronavirus, is there any additional consideration because of what they put in you?

HALLER: Well, there's a 24-hour on call phone number that I can use if I have any problems. So far so good.

CUOMO: But I'm saying if you were to get coronavirus, would you get more or less sick than if you hadn't had this test vaccine? Are you more susceptible? Is your immune system compromised by it? Anything like that.

HALLER: Understood. No, I don't believe so. We'll take that to the scientists and have them answer that question.

But you know, of course it's an unknown. We can't say anything for sure. Again, being the first, but none of that is expected.

CUOMO: Why did you do this? [01:20:01]

HALLER: Yes, that's a big question. I am so privileged in my life to be healthy and to have family and friends around. My kids are older.

I have a great job in the tech industry in Seattle. I work for a company that allows me the flexibility to take time off and to work remotely whenever I need.

And so I just have a huge privilege that that I can do those things. I will continue to receive my salary through this. And so, so many Americans right now do not have that privilege and are concerned about paying rent, certainly losing their jobs. How are they going to feed their family? There's so much that other people are worried about right now that this was something that that was easy for me to decide that I wanted to do.

You know, I'm blessed to have an opportunity to be able to do something. We all feel so helpless right now, and I actually am getting to do something here.

CUOMO: I asked you because I want to know what is different about you from so many who feel helpless right now, and their answer was to not volunteer for a vaccine, or to do anything for anybody else, but to run out and buy as much toilet paper as they could find.

What do you think it was that triggered you to say, you know what, I've got it pretty good. I think I'm going to give of myself right now even though I don't have to, nobody is asking me to.

HALLER: Yes, you know, I believe that thousands and thousands of people applied to participate in this study. I don't have the numbers, but I believe that to be true.

And I believe we are all good, and I certainly went out to Costco last Thursday, and I fortunately already had enough toilet paper, but I bought plenty of supplies.

And so it is natural for us to during crisis to go inward and to protect ourselves and to protect our families. And I think you know, this is a great opportunity for us to kind of wake up and to step out of that a little bit and start thinking about others and having concern for others and what they're going through at this time.

I really hope this is a wakeup call for our country to enact what we need to take care of people, we need universal healthcare, we need paid time off. We need paid sick leave. There's so much that that needs to change that I'm very hopeful that we'll wake up to this and we'll start making some big changes after this.

CUOMO: Any change that comes in society necessarily starts with the feeling that you have put on display for the audience tonight, which is you make a decision to care about somebody other than yourself.

So Jennifer, I wish you well. I hope it is uneventful and yet very helpful to researchers in giving us a better way to deal with something this, and I thank you for what you're doing for the show. And for me, and for all of us.

HALLER: Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.

CUOMO: American. You know who else fits into that category? All of these doctors and nurses on the frontlines of the coronavirus war. They know what's coming. They know they can get sick, too. In fact, they're probably more likely to, right?

What's being done to keep them healthy, so they can do the same for us? Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:27:42]

CUOMO: So capacity, capacity, that means rooms, that means machines. It also means protective gear, lack of testing, exposure.

These are issues that all of us have been thinking about, but as Elizabeth Cohen shows us, it's the reality not just a thought for many of our healthcare workers and first responders, and they're going to face it all day, every day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Doctors, nurses, healthcare workers on the frontline of the battle against the novel coronavirus, and they're already getting sick.

An emergency physician in New Jersey in critical condition with the virus. A healthcare provider at Johns Hopkins has tested positive.

In Philadelphia at St. Christopher's Children's Hospital, a doctor was exposed to coronavirus and the Trauma Unit had to be shut down.

At rallies outside hospitals, the nation's largest nursing union speaking up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROCHELLE PARDUE-OKIMOTO, REGISTERED NURSE, NATIONAL NURSES UNITED: This is a public health crisis and we need our hospital leadership to get it together. We need to focus on our patients. We need to protect our nurses. We need to continue to be able to come to work and care for our community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN (voice over): Even just giving a coronavirus test to a patient can be dangerous for a doctor or a nurse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a swab that's put in the back of the nose all the way to the back of the throat. When you put that in, it's highly likely a person coughs or sneezes so you're at risk. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN (voice over): Doctors and nurses are especially worried since protective gear, masks, gloves, eye shields are in short supply.

This hospital in Albany, Georgia went through five months' worth of protective gear in six days.

At Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, they're limiting the number of doctors and nurses who have face-to-face contact with patients who might be infected.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN, MASSACHUSETTS GENERAL HOSPITAL: There are stories that people are asymptomatic and can transmit and so the more we are limiting healthcare interaction with patients, the less likely that people might be exposed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN (voice over): And it's not just infections with coronavirus that's causing problems. Doctors and nurses having to work harder because many of their colleagues have to stay home because they might be infected.

At this hospital in Western Massachusetts, 160 employees have been quarantined. At Mass General, many workers there also told not to come to work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALENSKY: It is a depleted workforce in the hospital just at a time when we have patients really knocking down the door.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[01:30:09]

COHEN (voice over): But doctors and nurses carry on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALENSKY: We're tired. We're working a lot. But I would say there is no prouder time to be in Medicine and to see what's going on, on the frontlines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN (voice over): They're the heroes in this outbreak and they need to be protected so they can stay healthy, and so they can take care of the rest of us.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE) CUOMO: All of these problems are practical, but also political. What

will our President do or maybe the men who want to be our President?

A clean sweep for Joe Biden tonight. First time voters have cast ballots, knowing their choice could end up taking over the coronavirus crisis. So what does it mean for the state of play?

The Wizard of Oz looks at this battle for the White House, reshaped in ways that we could have never imagined just weeks ago. Next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[01:35:08]

CUOMO: Some perspective, not since 9/11 forced the New York Primary to be delayed have we seen this big of a shift in the middle of an election season.

Some states are postponing. Others like Maryland are going to vote by mail in some cases. Still voters in three states did cast their ballots in what was supposed to be yet another Super Tuesday. That's why I got the Wizard of Oz here to help us sort out the new normal. There is. So let's do this.

You know, what I think is obvious is that that debate the other night, they should have been talking about coronavirus the whole time, anything about long term planning or systemic change? I just don't know where the national appetite is for it. What did we see tonight that proves me right or wrong-ish?

HARRY ENTEN, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER AND ANALYST: I mean, I think the thing that sort of proves you right or wrong-ish. I mean, look at this.

So Illinois was the one state, folks, the one state in which there was a significant day of vote compared to Arizona and Florida where the majority of the vote was cast early.

Take a look at this concern about effects from the coronavirus outbreak. Look at this, 87 percent -- 87 percent of Democratic primary voters said they were concerned versus just 13 percent who said they were not concerned. So very clearly the coronavirus very much on the minds of Democratic voters.

You are circling Democrats there. I will say that in some of the polling, Republicans are not nearly as concerned as Democrats. So I don't think that's too much of a surprise given that the President was downplaying it for weeks on end.

It's going to be interesting to see if the Republican numbers do in fact catch up to the Democratic numbers, but certainly today in Illinois, a lot of people are very concerned about coronavirus.

CUOMO: One other thing that matters for the Democrats is this number.

ENTEN: Yes. CUOMO: Less turnout, more better for the President.

ENTEN: Oh, you think that. I heard you say that in the last hour.

CUOMO: Yes, I did. Field test.

ENTEN: I'm not necessarily sure that's the case.

CUOMO: Why? It is easy to say I'm wrong. Tell me why.

ENTEN: First, let me just point out that in Illinois, the reason I have Illinois on this slide again, it's because it was the state that had the most number of people that were going to vote today, and you can clearly see that turnout is down about 500,000 back from 2016, which is very different than what we saw in the other Primaries this year, in which turnout was either matching or exceeding 2016.

CUOMO: Because of coronavirus.

ENTEN: Pre-coronavirus virus. So very clearly coronavirus had an impact on the turnout in Illinois. Now, getting to your point. Look, the fact is, I know there's this whole idea that higher turnout is good for Democrats. But that's not necessarily the case. Right? It depends who is turning out.

You may remember back in 2004, right, when George Bush was running for reelection, there was all this talk, if John Kerry can just get his voters out.

Well, John Kerry did get his voters out and then Bush got out more of his voters. The fact is, if you look at the polls, it's not necessarily clear to me that lower turnout is necessarily a good thing for the President, especially given that the most enthusiastic people at this point tend to be the people who want to get the President out of office, at least that's what we saw in the Midterm Elections.

CUOMO: The reason I'm saying it, I agree with everything you just said, is because you just had in the last slide that Democrats are much more worried about this than Republicans.

ENTEN: Correct.

CUOMO: So if you're worried about it, you're less likely to vote because you're worried about the virus. And if you're not worried about it, you're more likely to vote because you're not as worried about the virus. And I think that may come into play as well.

But let's leave it there because it's an unknown. Here is what is known. Democrats who are talking about trust?

ENTEN: Yes, I mean, look, you know, older folks are more concerned about the coronavirus once you control for partisan identification, right?

So older Democrats are more concerned than younger Democrats, which you might think, if less older folks turn out, it would be a good thing for Bernie Sanders.

But the fact is, who do you trust more to handle a major crisis? Look at this number today from the voters, the average in Arizona, Florida and Illinois, 66 percent say Joe Biden is better handling it. You trust him more to handle a crisis than Bernie Sanders.

So as we've seen this shift in the dynamic in the Democratic Primary, I think it's probably to Biden's benefit, and you saw that in the debate right on Sunday night where basically what you saw was he was saying, it's an emergency. It's an emergency. It's an emergency we need to attack it.

While Sanders didn't seem to be on as firm footing on that particular topic.

CUOMO: You know, there's also a little interesting difference in the dynamic. This man is not in office. This man is.

ENTEN: Yes.

CUOMO: I wonder if that adds a layer to the dynamic of voters who are saying, what is Sanders doing right now on coronavirus? What is he pushing for? Is that something they may have an expectation about or no, he's just one of a hundred senators. This is about the White House.

ENTEN: I think it is probably more about the latter. You know, he's one of a hundred senators, but I think it really gets to the point of Biden being the one who you trust most.

He was right next to the Commander-in-Chief, right? He's the one who has all that experience. He is the one who is pledging this return to normalcy in some sort of sense, and voters right now are so craving that especially in these crazy times.

I think coronavirus just adds to the crazy times in the minds of voters who just want a little bit of normalcy, and so that makes them flock back to Biden.

CUOMO: What happens after tonight for Sanders in terms of his argument for why he needs to stay in?

[01:40:03]

ENTEN: I don't really know the argument for why he needs to stay in. I mean, look at this. I think this is such a key slide. So right now if you look at the delicate count, after tonight's Primaries are all said and through, right, Biden is going to have about a 300-delegate lead, perhaps a little bit more. Obviously, we're still counting some of the votes.

CUOMO: Much bigger than Clinton's.

ENTEN: Right. Allocating the delegates -- there it is right there right now. Look at that. He is up by -- look at that -- 307 at this particular point. And if you were up by 307 at this particular point, what you

essentially need, given the number of delegates that have been allocated so far, and given the fact that Democrats, a lot of their delegates are proportionally right, Bernie Sanders would need to win the remaining vote by somewhere around 20 percentage points.

But look at this, Bernie needs to win by about 20. But look at the margin right now Biden has over Sanders in our last CNN poll in the states that have yet to vote. He is leading by 32 points.

So right now Bernie Sanders is running about 52 points behind where he needs to run. I've got to be honest, you know, I may be a wizard of some sort, you know, as you point out, the Wizard of Oz, whatever.

But I don't think you need to be a mathematical wizard to know that if you're running 52 points behind where you need to be, it's not going to happen for you.

CUOMO: His argument is, they don't come out in the primary, but the people who will decide this election are the people on the sidelines who don't love parties, who are very young, and they will carry me to victory and you don't win any other way.

ENTEN: I don't get it. I don't get it. Right? We've had a lot of Primaries already. Have we seen youth turnout go up?

CUOMO: They are saying they don't come out in Primaries. They only come out in the General.

ENTEN: No, you know, wait. Right, I'm going to wait until tomorrow and then maybe the newspaper might finally get delivered, even though it hasn't been delivered in the last seven days. I don't really get that argument.

The people who have been coming on in Primaries have been suburban women particularly, and you know who they're supporting? They're supporting this guy, Joe Biden.

So you know, look, the fact is, Joe Biden is ahead. Joe Biden is going to continue to be ahead, and if I were putting odds on the nomination, as I did last week, right now he has a 99.9 percent chance to have the plurality majority of delegates.

CUOMO: I'll tell you what though, we poll all the time about what you care about, and what the list of issues are and what the priorities are. You don't need to do that anymore. Who's going to help me get through this? Who's going to keep my family safe?

Who's going to figure out how to get us back to what we used to think with something called normal. It's all through one lens now. Who will capture it? We'll see.

Wiz, I love you. You're great.

ENTEN: Shalom, buddy.

CUOMO: I can't touch you. Six feet.

ENTEN: Yes, I'll give you -- I'll give you the salute.

CUOMO: It works. It works. Bernie Sanders has a tough decision to make at some point. If it's tough at all, let's bring in Elaina Plott and the Professor, Ron Brownstein on where is Sanders?

I get what the Wiz says. Ron Brownstein is going to say the same thing. Sanders doesn't agree. How long does that hold up after this third Super Tuesday? Two great minds. Next.

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[01:46:47]

CUOMO: Biden won big, but you've got to look at how? How? Well, he wound up proving his appeal to an array of Democrats, okay. Coalition is a word that you're going to hear.

Even as many do see promise in Senator Sanders' movement, a call for Revolution. The idea that the senator will bring out voters in the General that you cannot win without.

And now, as this is all coming to a head, you've been hearing this for weeks and months, but not through this lens, not through the coronavirus lens. What does it mean?

Elaina Plott and the Professor, Ron Brownstein join me now. It's good to have you both.

You know, Ron, you spent so much time with history. We've seen what they call October surprises. Sometimes now in economics called Black Swan event, an unknown. They certainly have shaped elections past, but we ain't never seen nothing like this. How do you think it plays?

RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well nothing has disrupted American life to this extent. You know, in our experience. I mean, probably not since Pearl Harbor. I mean, this exceeds even I think 9/11 by the time it's all over.

So we don't know exactly all the ways in which it will affect and reshape the election.

Certainly one of them though, is it puts a premium on leadership and on experience. And I think that is part of the reason why Joe Biden has -- not just a principal reason -- but one of the reasons why Joe Biden has pulled away from Bernie Sanders and it will be -- it's a backdrop that highlights his strengths relative to Donald Trump, who, you know, even on his best day, among his best supporters, you know, would have to be seen as volatile and unpredictable and veering around.

So just one quick number, Quinnipiac did a poll at the beginning of this month asking, who would you trust to handle a crisis? Joe Biden led the President -- the sitting President -- by 16 points on that question. I think that's an important asset, even though, you know, the

President will have the ability to show leadership in the coming months in trying to recover from the very slow start they've had in responding to this.

CUOMO: Elaina, young voter question for you because what you take from me and having more IQ points, I make up for in years over you in age, so I ask you this question. Young voters do not seem as concerned about coronavirus. Do you think that there's a chance that it will mean less to them in the election and that if you want them to vote, you're going to have to stick to their issues that they're not going to come out because they're scared about this?

ELAINA PLOTT, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, they weren't coming out before this was an issue. Right, Chris? I mean, Bernie Sanders's entire candidacy has been premised upon this idea that he can fundamentally reshape the electorate. That has not been the story at all in any Primary thus far.

And I think you know, the variable that young people are perhaps less scared of the coronavirus than earlier voters, you know, I don't see how you boost turnout from something that's already not helping Bernie Sanders gets to where he wants to be in the first place.

CUOMO: So now it comes to well, what happens? He got beat badly again tonight, but -- and I've asked you both this question before and you've both smacked me down on it. But, Ron, it maintains the Senator's candidacy which is, sorry, guys, you guys are very smart. Elaina, you're a great journalist. Ron, you're a great journalist and a political scientist, but you're wrong.

[01:50:07]

CUOMO: In the General they'll come out. These people don't vote in the Primary. They're on the sidelines. They are Independents. They don't like the party. They're young, they're new. I'll get them. Can't beat Trump without them. I've got to stay in.

BROWNSTEIN: Well, look, first of all, I think the first question is, do you advance or diminish your cause? Do you increase or diminish your leverage in the party if you go out and get walloped every week?

I mean, he did not exceed 36 percent of the vote today. Chris, there are only three states where he's gotten past 37 percent of the vote. One of them is his home state of Vermont, one a caucus in North Dakota and one in Idaho, which is a small state that is not very Democratic out West.

He has lost self-identified Democrats in every state since South Carolina except Colorado, California, and Vermont.

He is losing not only the college-educated whites and African- Americans, but he is losing blue collar whites in almost every states now including about two thirds of them in some of the states.

Tonight, he says he is mobilizing a campaign of the working class. I guess, you could argue that if you continue, you will diminish your leverage because you will be showing that you have a smaller piece of the party that is wed to you than you have argued.

CUOMO: All right, then how about this. That the entire state of play in our government has just shifted over to exactly what Bernie Sanders wants to do, Elaina Plott. You're going to give everybody a check. I know that was really Andrew Yang. But certainly Bernie wouldn't be against it.

You believe that you have to revamp the entire healthcare system now to make sure that everybody gets what they need. That's what he's calling for. And these measures about forgiving debt, about helping people in the working class, about separating them out from the elites. These are all Bernie's ideas. Why isn't the whole race just change in his favor?

PLOTT: Because you know, what I think overrides that, Chris, this craving among voters perhaps more than ever right now for technocracy.

I did a story for "The Times" on Sunday speaking to Trump voters about how they feel the administration has handled this --

CUOMO: Elaina, you can't just say word technocracy to someone who is as ham-headed as me and think that it's just going to be absorbed. Mayonnaise is the biggest word I use. What is technocracy?

PLOTT: This is the idea that experts and expertise are not bad things. That that lifelong kind of government officials' bureaucracy, in general, expertise within agencies are actually essential to, you know, a functioning democracy.

That's something that Donald Trump, you know, really rejected and drove against in his obviously very successful 2016 bid.

But what I wanted to say, Chris, is that this is the first time I've ever spoken to Trump voters when they've actually expressed a deep appreciation for and trust in government agencies like the C.D.C.

And if you're hearing Trump voters saying that, I can't even imagine how deeply that must extend in the Democratic Party. So beyond, you know, stimulus measures and whatnot, I think that's the ethos that as long as this virus continues, it will continue to propel voters in favor of Joe Biden.

CUOMO: All right. And then how about this? That what's going to be done by Congress right now? And I think necessarily so and I think it's just one step. I'm worried about them giving checks to every American thinking they're going to spend it. Why wouldn't they save it? I mean, if they know they're not going to be working, you know, you're going to give a prudent person money, and you think, they're just going to go run out and buy a TV?

You know, so they're going to have to take more steps. But if Congress gets us out of this before the election, Ron, why doesn't that redound to the benefit of Trump as a President who is at the helm when we get out of this? BROWNSTEIN: It's not inconceivable that it does, Chris, I agree with

you. And first of all, I mean, for any Democrat, I mean, the irony here of Republicans, every single Republican in the House and all but three in the Senate opposed President Obama's stimulus plan in 2009 and fought tooth and nail against every dollar.

Mitch McConnell, you know, basically, you know, threw himself in front of the train and tried to block that stimulus, and now to have Republicans sort of casually saying, well, we need a trillion dollar stimulus. You'd have to ask what exactly is different other than the partisanship of the President?

But I agree with you. It is not easy with Donald Trump, you know, depending on how this unfolds. Now, Democrats have a lot of ammunition in terms of the way they've handled the early stages.

The delay in testing, Don Kettl, who is one of our premier scholars at the Federal Government Bureaucracy said to me for a story this week, this will go down as one of the greatest failures in the history of the Federal government, the delay in testing. The delay in in reinforcing the supplies that we need in hospitals and, you know, medical facilities. All of these are tremendous management failures.

But if they can turn the corner and hold down the ultimate incidence of disease and prevent the economy from sliding off of the cliff, absolutely, the President will --

By the way, in the polling so far, opinion about how he is handling this, almost exactly as following the tracks of the overall opinion and virtually everyone who agrees with the way he's handled the job in general says he's doing a good job and everybody who disagrees says he isn't.

[01:55:10]

BROWNSTEIN It's like impeachment, like everything else more reinforcing than reconfiguring the basic lines of division.

CUOMO: Until this touches you where you live, which none of those other things did. And when he said he gives himself a 10 out of 10, you know, that may shape opinions when this comes close to home, because Elaina, last word to you, one thing that has definitely changed, I don't think people have the same appetite for pointless political division anymore.

When there's an existential threat around, even if it's just getting sick for a while, we're much more worried. Give me a quick last word, I've got to go.

PLOTT: I think that crises only cease to be political when they become personal, and the more that this touches people, whether in red states or blue states, the more that it's going to shape their calculus of how they view November.

CUOMO: I'm glad I gave you the last word. It is much better than I could have said it. Thank you, both. Elaina Plott and Ron Brownstein. PLOTT: Thanks, Chris.

CUOMO: Thank you for watching. Stay tuned. We will give you the information you need no matter the hour until we get through this and beyond. Stay with CNN.

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