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U.S. Military Aids in Coronavirus Response; U.S. Still Lags on Testing; Interview with President of Council on Foreign Relations Richard Haass. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired March 27, 2020 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: -- you just have to be a New Jersey resident who is showing symptoms. If you meet those two requirements, you will not be turned away. Everyone else will be, and everyone will be turned away once they reach capacity.

I should mention that this is one of the two sites -- this site and also the Bergen County Community College -- being run by the state of New Jersey, a partnership with the state's health department and the state's National Guard.

Tomorrow, Saturday, they're going to be testing only symptomatic health care workers and symptomatic first responders. And this is key here. We talk about how New Jersey has the second highest number of confirmed cases, second only to New York at just under 7,000.

But we really don't know how many cases that's -- they really have until you do more testing. And when it comes to testing first responders and health care workers, that is very key as well because we've been hearing through all of our reporting that these are folks who are on the frontlines, they're being exposed to the virus and they're concerned about spreading it further -- Jim.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Yes. That's the thing, we always hear that from the experts, that headline number there, 82,000 likely understates the actual number of infections because testing, not widely available. Athena Jones, thanks very much.

Help is on the way to help ease the burden the coronavirus has put on hospitals in California. The U.S. Navy Mercy hospital ship is going to dock at the Port of Los Angeles this morning after departing San Diego earlier this week. The ship will provide an extra 1,000 hospital beds as California reports more than 3,000 cases so far. Deaths there, just over 60.

CNN's Stephanie Elam joins me now from Los Angeles. Stephanie, how soon before the ship can start receiving patients?

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's just what we were looking to find out, Jim. And they are expecting that as early as tomorrow. They will be able to start taking patients on board of the USNS Mercy. What's interesting about this, it's similar to what you just heard

Shimon (ph) saying in New York, is that this location is going to be for non-COVID-19 patients, the idea being that this will be a referral hospital where they will take other patients, that they will work with local and state officials to figure out which patients should be transferred from the hospitals that they're in now, and move them here to the Mercy.

And the idea being, it'll free up space and ICU space for patients who do have COVID in the hospitals. Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti, yesterday, saying where New York is is where Los Angeles could be in six days' time. And so they are expecting to need this increased capacity of hospital beds.

It's expected to come underneath the bridge, it'll come right through here and this is where it will be docked. It has 70 service members on there, ready for all kinds of medical needs to treat adults. They say that they will also be able to do surgical procedures as well, so this will actually help the capacity of the state.

And we're just talking about in Los Angeles County, you mentioned the numbers for California overall but in L.A. County right now, we have 1,200 cases and 21 deaths right now. So this is also part of the reason why they are so convinced that they're going to need more help here in Southern California, and to get this help by having this ship that will be docked here for the near future to help out.

I mean, this is the ship that is used to going into warzones to help out military personnel, now being able to use its other job and come here to L.A. County and help out all of California with those extra thousand beds -- Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes, good. I mean, some of those wards look pretty densely packed there as well. Stephanie Elam, thanks very much.

Right now, lawmakers are on the House floor, debating that $2 trillion stimulus bill. It was unanimously approved by the Senate earlier this week. Members had to rush back to Capitol Hill overnight, following concerns that a Republican congressman, Thomas Massie, might force an in-person rollcall vote.

In response, President Trump is calling on Republicans to throw Massie out of the party. Those who are not speaking at today's House debate are asked to stay in their offices. This, out of social distancing concerns. Of course, they want to set an example. Speaker Nancy Pelosi, expect the stimulus package however to pass today.

[10:34:00]

President Trump is trying to reopen the economy by divvying up the country into high- and low-risk counties for coronavirus. What do the health experts say? Does that work, does it make sense?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. President Trump is growing anxious to get people back to work despite the U.S. now leading the world in confirmed coronavirus cases. Right now, there is a patchwork of cities, counties and states with stay-at-home orders, other restrictions; others do not have it, sometimes in the same state.

But the White House says the president wants to focus on lifting restrictions in some counties, which he says are less affected by the virus.

Joining me now is Rebecca Katz, professor and director of Georgetown University's Center for Global Health, Science and Security, and Dr. Carlos Del Rio, he's professor of medicine at -- and global health at Emory University in Atlanta. Thanks to both of you. I know you've got a lot on your plate.

I want to play something that Bill Gates said last night about how long these social distancing restrictions should last, and I want to get your reaction. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL GATES, CO-CHAIR, BILL AND MELINDA GATES FOUNDATION: So we're entering into a tough period that if we do it right, we'll only have to do it once for six to 10 weeks. But we have to do it -- it has to be the whole country --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Dr. Katz, you hear Bill Gates there. Does that make sense? And are there risks in relaxing too soon as the president is suggesting?

[10:40:03]

REBECCA KATZ, PROFESSOR AND DIRECTOR AT CENTER FOR GLOBAL HEALTH SCIENCE AND SECURITY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: I think what Bill Gates is saying is exactly what many of us in the public health community are saying. We are -- I'm adding my voice to a growing chorus, that the -- relaxing the restrictions early just doesn't make much sense to us. And in terms of the -- either from an economic perspective, or for the -- the way that the models all look in terms of spread of disease.

And I think Mr. Gates is absolutely right, that in order for these measures to be effective, they have to be nationwide. Otherwise, you're going to see cases jumping from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

SCIUTTO: Yes, viruses know no borders. We've heard that many times.

Dr. Del Rio, you're of course in Georgia. So far, 56 deaths, 1,600 cases of coronavirus. And you have this conflict -- and I was speaking to the Atlanta mayor just a few minutes ago -- they have a stay-at- home order, the state does not. There's not a big wall around the city of Atlanta. How do those kind of patchwork recommendations work? Do they work?

CARLOS DEL RIO, PROFESSOR AND CHAIR OF DEPARTMENT OF GLOBAL HEALTH, EMORY UNIVERSITY: Well, Jim, they don't. And it's not just the city of Atlanta. The city of Atlanta is a small part of what we call the Atlanta metropolitan and statistical area. And the MSA has multiple counties, multiple cities. And if we don't have every county and every city doing this, we're simply not going to be able to control the disease in the city of Atlanta, let alone the state.

And I understand and I see where the governor of Georgia is saying he's reluctant to understand where the president is reluctant, but I couldn't agree more with Mr. Gates. We either do this fully, or we're doing it partially. And I think lifting the restrictions, we know from the 1918 flu pandemic, if you lift the restrictions too early, you get a second peak that in fact tends to be worse than the first one.

SCIUTTO: Yes, yes. The history of that, I've read the same one, where it says the second time around was actually worse in that case.

I want to ask you, Dr. Katz, because the president -- president's idea is based on the idea that you can determine with some certainty which area is high-risk, which is medium-risk and which is low-risk. But how do you do that given that testing has been so patchwork in this country, and frankly just not available? Do you really know?

KATZ: You don't. I think you can look at the health care system, you can look at how overwhelmed your hospitals are. But without testing, they're -- I don't -- I don't -- maybe the White House has access to data that nobody else is able to see, but I don't think we are actually able to know definitively what the burden of disease is and how to -- to put these labels on to say that a certain locality is low-risk.

I think also, to the point made earlier, we just -- what may be deemed as low-risk, if you're not containing the virus in neighboring localities, it's going to be very fluid and may immediately go to a high-risk situation. So without data, (INAUDIBLE) how we do that.

SCIUTTO: I want to look if we can, Dr. Del Rio, at where the U.S. is on the curve at this point. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, he'll always remind that whatever the numbers are today, those are actually backward-looking. It doesn't tell you where the situation is today.

But -- but look at this graphic here. The steepest line in that figure, on the far right, that is the growth in confirmed infections here in the U.S. And what was notable to us was, it's a steeper climb than Italy, the next one over, or even China, at least based on the figures that China has supplied.

Dr. Del Rio, what do you attribute that to, the fact that it's grown even more quickly here than in the two other countries most affected by this?

DEL RIO: I think, Jim, that you have two things. Number one is the spread of the virus, but number two is that we're catching up on testing. And since we're so far behind on testing, part of the growth that we're seeing, as Dr. Gupta says, are cases behind. We're looking at things that happened before. So part of the growth actually means catching up on cases that were already there. But I want to emphasize what was said, and I want to emphasize over

and over. We need to get testing up. And if we really do very good job testing, like South Korea and other countries have done, then we can start thinking about lifting restrictions because we need data, and we need information. And if we don't have data, lifting restrictions without data, in my mind, is reckless.

SCIUTTO: Dr. Katz, let me ask you a question. Because if the president does issue these recommendations, what would you say to people at home, people with families, people with grandparents -- right? -- who they're concerned about. Should they listen to the president, or should they consider making their own decision to continue to social distance?

KATZ: Well, I think my -- my hope is actually that the governors and the mayors themselves will -- will understand the true level of threat in their own communities and act accordingly. So I think it is -- it is up to some of -- our -- it's up to our political leaders, but if not from the federal government, then maybe from our state and locals --

[10:45:06]

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KATZ: -- to be able to assess what their -- what their true situation is, and to be able to listen to public health community and take action that way (ph).

SCIUTTO: Yes, you just wish it was a singular voice, but it's not.

Rebecca Katz, Dr. Carlos Del Rio, we appreciate the work you're both doing and we wish you the best of luck.

DEL RIO: Thank you, Jim.

KATZ: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: CNN's new podcast has the answers you're looking for about coronavirus. Hosted by Dr. Sanjay Gupta, listen wherever you get your favorite podcasts. It answers a lot of questions.

President Trump says he had a good conversation with the president of China. At the same time, his administration is accusing China of spreading the pandemic around the world. We'll have more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:50:16]

SCIUTTO: This crisis, of course, is not just a health issue, it's also an economic issue and it is a national security issue.

Joining me now to discuss is Ambassador Richard Haass. He is the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, also the author of the forthcoming book "The World: A Brief Introduction." I feel like we're getting an introduction to the world every day now, in light of this pandemic.

You and I have spoken a lot through the years about U.S. leadership on issues. And Fareed Zakaria has a new piece out just now that says that the U.S. is still exceptional, but in this case for its incompetence in the response to this. I wonder if you agree with that assessment?

RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: I'm sorry to say I do. Traditionally, the United States leads in two ways, Jim. One is we lead by trying to rally the world to meet a certain challenge, whether it's an aggressor in the traditional sense, or here, it would be that we would rally the world in both the health sense and the economic sense, and we're doing precious little of that.

The other way the United States historically has led is by the example it sets. And we would show that how we were contending with the -- the medical aspects of this as well as the economic, we were again showing the rest of the world how it is to be done.

And there's just no way to sit here and make the argument that the example we're setting is one anyone would want to emulate.

SCIUTTO: Remarkably, the president, digging his heels in on his own personal or desired response to this now, you know, pushing this idea, he's going to relax or attempt to relax these restrictions rather than what all the health experts, including Anthony Fauci standing right next to him at the podium, saying, you need to let these stick for a while so that you can reduce the rate of spread?

HAASS: Look, I understand the desire to return to some degree of normalcy. The economic hit of this is going to be enormous on individuals, on businesses. So I understand the temptation. But like most temptations, this one needs to be resisted.

We need -- we need to deal with the medical public health challenge, full stop, unconditionally, straight on, for probably another month or even longer. We need a holding action on the economic side. And that's what Congress is essentially about, providing the means by which Americans can weather the crisis.

But only after that, after we've really dealt head-on with the -- with the public health side, and then we try to return the economy to anything like normal.

SCIUTTO: Yes. The president has taken particular aim at China here. He, the State Department at the G7 meeting, sticking to this name, Wuhan virus. It's our understanding -- CNN reporting -- the National Security Council has distributed talking points to U.S. officials to hammer this home, talk about an alleged cover-up by China, disinformation campaign.

One, I mean, we do know that China, in the early days, did deliberately try to stifle news of this and then it kind of turned the corner and went aggressively after it. Why do you think the president is taking such particular aim at China here? Is he looking for someone to blame? HAASS: Well, the short answer is probably so, to deflect attention.

Look, China does deserve criticism, not so much because it's -- began there, it could have begun anywhere -- but because of the cover-up and their -- their initial response. But China can't be held responsible for our lack of testing or our shortage of ventilators or anything else. We've got to -- we've got to deal with that ourselves.

This also, though, takes place in a larger context, where (ph) this administration has had a bizarre almost schizophrenic relationship or approach to China since the get-go. On the one hand, we've painted them as a strategic rival, we've been incredibly critical. On the other hand, as recently as today, the president has this friendly conversation with President Xi, we did the first phase of a trade deal.

They want to -- it's both ways, they want to blame China at the same time they want to maintain something of a relationship with China, and certainly with its leader.

SCIUTTO: Yes. The president even said it was a good conversation.

Final question before I let you go, the U.S. is involved in a number of its own hotspots around the world. You've got Russian forces in Ukraine, you've got U.S. forces in Iraq, Syria still fighting ISIS, you've got tensions with Iran. Is it your concern that if countries like Iran or North Korea, that they seek to exploit the focus on a pandemic to strike elsewhere?

HAASS: It could be. It's a little bit of a "while the cat's away, will the mice play." And I worry about that, one, to take advantage of the opportunity, the others, to distract attention from their own internal problems. And that points me to Iran.

[10:55:05]

If there's any country that worries me right now, it's what Iran is going to do because they face, in some ways, the most existential crisis they've faced since their revolution 40 years ago, and I really worry about some of the extraordinarily harsh anti-American rhetoric being uttered by their supreme leader.

SCIUTTO: We'll keep an eye on it. Ambassador Richard Haass, always good to have you on. Thanks very much.

HAASS: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, just minutes from now, we're going to get an update from Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York, where we're continuing to see a rise in coronavirus cases. Please stay with us.

[11:00:00]