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Cuomo Prime Time
U.K. PM Boris Johnson In ICU After Condition "Worsened"; Trump Puts Testing Issues On States After Insisting "Anybody That Wants A Test Can Get A Test"; Connecticut Considers COVID-Only Nursing Homes. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired April 06, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Wish I had met him in life. Thank you. Take care.
RISA HARMS, LOST COUSIN NICK JESDANUN, AGE 51, TO CORONAVIRUS: Thank you. Thank you. You too.
COOPER: And that's it for us. The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris, how are you feeling?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: I'm doing well. Thank God. Better than I deserve.
There is so much great human potential that we are losing to this virus. Every one of them is heartbreaking. And it was so important to hear that story, so we remember the need by realizing that people are getting taken so way too soon.
Anderson, thank you very much, brother. It's good to be back with you.
I am Chris Cuomo. Welcome to PRIME TIME.
Now, whether you look to Holy Week, or to Passover, both are being interrupted by this pandemic prison, the message of suffering remains every bit as resonant, a reality that requires as much collective conscience as any article of faith.
Now, we're going to see things this week that may suggest we're turning a corner. I argue we have to be vigilant not to play to false hope. So, we have to take a look at the reality behind where we are in the curve, why does it look this way, can there be something false about flattening.
But we already know that the cure lies in the collective. We're seeing it all over this country day and day again. Personally, you guys have helped me heal in ways big and small, I will never be able to thank you enough.
No matter how it goes, we do know this. Our way through this remains just one way, together as ever as one. So, let's get after it.
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CUOMO: I mean, we keep telling you, this virus can take anybody at any time, not that we need more proof of that. But the U.K. Prime Minister, Boris Johnson, you know, put prayers out for him. He is in a very bad way. Why?
Routine tests in London, remember, this is the Prime Minister, OK, you would think the most sensitivity, the most action, the most accountability, for his treatment, right?
He goes from routine tests to the ICU in less than 24 hours, all right? The Prime Minister's condition is said to have gotten worse since he's entered the hospital. He's in the ICU as a precaution, in case he needs the ventilator.
Now remember, the ventilator is the strongest piece of equipment. But it also does the most to reduce the body's ability to fight the virus because it's literally taking away your body's ability to breathe, to, you know, take in air and bring it back out, so a lot of people don't get off it, all right? We got to keep an eye on this.
Now, here, the President keeps talking about light at the end of the tunnel despite deaths now topping 10,000, and the surge still coming.
Why? The question for us is, is there any strength to optimism, can it sustain hope if it is empty? And I think the only answer is "No." Only truth conveys strength. And what the President is doing yet again is making us weak.
Context, a month ago, Trump told you that there was testing for all. Remember this.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Anybody that wants a test can get a test.
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CUOMO: That has never been true. Now he says, "Well if you are unable to get one, it's really not the federal government's problem."
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TRUMP: States are supposed to be doing testing. Hospitals are supposed to be doing testing. You understand that? We're the federal government.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many results have (ph) come back?
TRUMP: Listen, we're the federal government. We're not supposed to stand on street corners doing testing.
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CUOMO: The President of the United States will never be able to escape accountability and responsibility for what happens. He is our leader.
Punting buying for testing shortfalls, and kicking it to the states, after he told you that anyone could get one, we know what this is about now. And you have to see it for what it is because isolate the problem, it's not the politics.
If we don't have better detection, we will always be behind. And for the growing number of us, who are going to face this Beast, OK, it doesn't just pass. It progresses. It is weeks, not days. It is chronic and it is humbling.
Your only chance is not catching it. And if you want to beat this virus, I've learned a secret that I'm going to talk to you about in a few different ways tonight. This advice we're getting to just stay in bed, and let it pass, no way. You want to beat this virus, you have to fight.
That's why I wanted to bring back Dr. Sanjay Gupta to give us a look at what these numbers mean this way, and what I've learned with my own symptoms in the last 72 hours.
It's good to have you, Doc.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey Chris, thanks - thanks for having me. You look better. I'm glad--
CUOMO: Thank you.
GUPTA: --glad to see that.
CUOMO: So, the numbers.
GUPTA: You--
CUOMO: Yes? Did you want to say something, Sanjay, before I get into content?
GUPTA: I just - I just wanted to ask if you - if you felt - if you felt better as well?
CUOMO: I feel better than I deserve. And I now know that I can't just take it from this thing that when the fever spikes, you just want to curl up in a ball, and stay there for the next six, seven hours, and you can't.
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You've got to bundle up your clothes. You've got to, you know, start drowning yourself in fluids. You got to take your Tylenol. And you got to get after it.
If you don't want it to get into your lungs, you got to force yourself to breathe. You got to get up off your ass, you got to walk around. It hurts. You don't want to do it. Everything in your body is telling you not to do it, and it's - it's lying to you.
And I know that now. And the more I do, the more I push myself to do, the better I'm getting. So, I'm going to take faith in that for now. I know I'm not through it, but that's good.
Let's talk about the collective though for a second though, and I'll get back into what I sent you with the chest X-ray.
The numbers could be flattening of the curve, my brother, the Governor of New York, said today. How do we distinguish flattening of the curve from a potential lag in numbers because of the waves in testing?
GUPTA: Yes. It's a - it's a great point, Chris. I mean you're going to have the confirmed infections first, followed by hospitalizations, and then followed sadly by - by deaths. And so, there is the lag.
Obviously, the testing itself is a lag because by the time someone gets tested that usually reflects an exposure that's, you know, 10 to 14 days earlier, so there's another lag there. So, you're absolutely right.
I think you got to follow the trend for a period of time. Nobody knows the exact right answer here. And you shouldn't believe anybody who tells you they do because we haven't seen this before. This virus behaves differently than other viruses that we've seen before. It's a novel Coronavirus.
But, you know, I think the trend is starting to look like it is flattening out a bit. It's - it may not be this apex, you know, so you have this point in time at the very height. It may be sort of go up, and then you plateau for a while, and then you come back down. That's - that's possibly what's going to happen here.
But it does look - it does look encouraging right now, and it sort of fits the models as well. Quickly, take a look at the model for New York, you know, when you look at these models, Chris, you've looked at tons of them. I spent all weekend looking at them.
The model is a big shaded area, frankly, you know, that's - it gives you just a, I don't know if we have - there it is, a variety of possibilities there.
But near the bottom, that dotted line, we're still in the - in the solid line, but that dotted line is what it - this is looking like it's going to be, which is, you know, still high, but it's encouraging, as I think your brother put it, Chris, is sort of redlining here.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: I mean giving - getting very close to using everything that they have, but - but still, you know, within the capacity of the healthcare system.
CUOMO: And one of the sad realities is that they're not having as big a crush with ventilators as they expected because so many people are succumbing. I think that we really don't figure out--
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --how this thing kills us yet. We're seeing funky things with young people. We're seeing funky things that it does in its lungs in - in people's lungs, where they're starting to intubate people in their stomachs now, which they don't usually do.
They try to create more, you know, air passage for them because most of the lungs, obviously, you know this Doc, you told me, but most of our lungs are in our back, not in our front.
You know, we always think that they're here, in the front, but they're in the back, and they're trying to make adjustments now.
GUPTA: Yes. Well, you know, it's - it's interesting. We - we are getting a better sense of what's happening with this particular, you know, infection. I mean but you're right.
I mean, you know, is it the virus itself that's replicating over and over again, and eventually, you know, overwhelms the body, leading to multiple system organ failure? Or - or is it the body's reaction to the virus itself?
You know, somebody who's young and healthy, as you point out, you know, they should be able to fight the virus, you know, typically.
But, in fact, the body reacts so strongly that in fact it's the inflammation that ends up being a problem for the person, and - and what the - what the clinicians are trying to treat.
You know, I'll just tell you quickly, Chris. I mean this - this raises this whole issue about even Hydroxychloroquine, this medication that so many people are asking about. It's sort of an immunosuppressant, right? It's used for things like lupus.
It's to damp - dampen down someone's immune system that is hyper- reactive. Well that could work well if - if the problem is a hyper- reactive immune system. But what about somebody who's immune system is weak? And that's why they're--
CUOMO: Yes.
GUPTA: --they're suffering so much with this disease. Then you might actually end up harming the person. So, that's the challenge here, you know. That's why you study these things, Chris.
CUOMO: Now, I know that the President's saying it doesn't make it policy necessarily.
But deflecting responsibility for testing couldn't come at a worst time. We now know that if the federal government doesn't have a heavy, heavy hand in testing, Sanjay, it's just never going to happen. You're never going to get to scale.
So, what do you take from the President saying today, not only something that is raw in its complete contradiction of what he said a month ago, but basically absenting the federal government from having a big hand in testing, and saying it's really hospitals and states.
GUPTA: Look, you know, I mean, you know, this is - this is one of these things, Chris, I think, you and I have been talking about for so long now, I mean a couple of months at least, where we said, look, we see this coming.
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We - we know exactly what needs to be done, not just us, obviously, you know. The public health officials say in order to basically understand this - this virus, and how widespread it is, you've got to test.
And the policies that were put in place by the federal government early on really diminished testing, don't really test somebody unless they've just returned from China, don't test somebody unless they've come in direct contact with someone, who's known to have Coronavirus. That's not how you get surveillance.
We were never set up initially to actually have surveillance on this. By the way, there were countries around the world that did do this, you know, South Korea, everyone always gives that as an example. The reason why is they had good surveillance.
Germany had good surveillance, you know. And - and you can see that, you know, they had good result - or much better results--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --because of that. It is - it is a bad disease no matter what, and I'm not going to minimize that part of it.
But in order to do the best that you can - you can, we needed to be doing more advanced testing earlier on. And that was really, you know, some of the directives coming from the federal government.
Now public health laboratories, now commercial laboratories, now University hospitals, now all these private--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --laboratories, and they need to come on board, and they are. But, you know, we - this isn't something you can catch up on like sleep, you know, we're - we're behind.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: And we stayed behind on this, as you just pointed out, even in New York.
CUOMO: And, you know, look, and you need the guiding hand, the same way you do with the purchasing power for the states. And the only reason I harp on it is not because I want to keep going backwards. If you don't learn the lessons of the past, you will repeat them. And we know we're going to have another wave of this. And if the
politics allows this to become about non-accountability that the Fed and gets a pass on testing, it's really states, we'll wind up in the same place.
Now, in terms of where we don't want to go--
GUPTA: That's right.
CUOMO: --if you have Coronavirus, in most of the cases, your big fear is that it's going to get your lungs. That's what it wants. It wants your lungs, this thing.
So, this weekend, I had the fever start to go down a little bit, and I started to feel it come into my chest. So, I went to get a chest X- ray, and I want you guys to see this, just so you can see what we're looking for, and not, OK?
Now, Doc, obviously you understand this. What we're looking for in the lungs are big white areas. What are the terms that people will hear? What are they looking for? And what do you see in this mighty expansive chest in front of you?
GUPTA: Well I mean you're right. I mean one of the things that you'll hear is - is infiltrate. Do you have an infiltrate in your - in your chest, in your - in your lungs? And that's basically a collection of inflammatory fluid.
I would look for those in areas where, you know, the black areas are the air, in your lungs. I would look for some of those black areas, essentially be filled with white spots.
And I just want make it clear for the audience. I'm not diagnosing here from afar or - or via television. Chris and I talked about this earlier today, and he obviously had his own doctor look at it as well.
In the middle of the chest X-ray there, you can see you have a little bit of - of infiltrates, and you can see this - this is the side view now.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: You'll see in the sort of middle of this - the film there is your - is your spine. You see those sort of domino-looking bones, awfully small I might - I might add, Chris, for a big guy like you, in the middle of the--
CUOMO: Whatever!
GUPTA: --the spine there. And then, in front of that, is the - is the X-ray of your lungs, and it looks - it looks pretty good, maybe a little bit of fluid build-up there, but not something that I would definitively call pneumonia, which is what they're trying to diagnose.
Pneumonia is not just diagnosed by a chest X-ray. But it's one of the tools that doctors use to diagnose. It so looks - it looks good. And again, I just making it clear, I'm not diagnosing Chris via
television here. But that look - you know, it looks pretty good. And I looked at that more closely on my computer today.
CUOMO: Right. Look, and I had different pulmonary people look at it. They take very gross readings because it's either really pneumonia, or it really isn't, and they expect me to have infiltrate, because I have the virus.
And I have to tell you, it is scary to have your lungs go up there, and see this stuff and be like "What - what is that? What is like that smoke in there?" And they tell you, "Yes, it's the virus. It's in there. It's in you. You have to fight to keep it out."
And, you know, I'm doing fine. I don't have pneumonia. But if I want to stay that way, you know, I got to have some things fall in my favor.
GUPTA: Yes. I think you make a good point, Chris. I mean obviously, you know, you're getting doctors who tell you, "Look, you should take it easy." I obviously was counseling you last week even, "You know, why don't you take some time off?"
And I think you make a good point that you need to keep your - your lung, you know, you're doing some of these pulmonary exercises, these breathing exercises, what your doctors have advised you to do, and--
CUOMO: No real exercise.
GUPTA: --that can be critically important as well.
CUOMO: No high heart rate, no strenuous anything.
GUPTA: No real exercise.
CUOMO: No. But just - just getting my lungs, and doing the breathing, is more than I can handle right now. But I believe in it.
I believe in it as a discipline that if you want this out of your lungs, you're going to have to keep it out of your lungs. And if you just lay on your ass, you're going to get it. I believe that.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: The cases I've been hearing, the longer people lay down, Sanjay, the more trouble they have.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean it's a - it's a balance, I know, for people because a lot - and I mean this wipes people out.
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I know it wiped you out for a bit. You were taking these naps, three- hour naps during the day, which is something I've never heard you do. But you were tired. And it just wipes people out. So, again, I don't want to minimize that part of it. But you're right, you know, as much as you can keep your lungs moving, you know, do these - these breathing exercises, there's these machines that allow people to actually breathe in and out. It helps, you know.
And, you know, we're - we're all learning together here. But there are some truisms when it comes to preventing lung infections or at least diminishing them. And - and that's - that's one of them.
And, you know, your - your chest X-ray, you do have a little bit of - of those white spots in there. Luckily, it's not a - a big infiltrate anywhere, so no real signs of pneumonia. But you can see, as your doctors tell you, what the - the virus has possibly done to your lungs there.
CUOMO: Yes. And the question is what does it happen afterwards. You know, now they're having all these anecdotal reports about people having lasting lung damage from this, and you just - we don't know. We just got to fight every day.
Sanjay, I want you to stay with me. I'm going to talk to the Governor of Connecticut next, and then I want you to come back, and talk to a couple of different people, who're really in the fight of it right now, you know.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: You know, again, I keep telling you guys--
GUPTA: OK.
CUOMO: --I am the lucky one.
Imagine you're sick, your husband's sick, he has to go into the hospital, you've got four kids, 17, 15, seven, and five, and they start to get sick, and you wind up with your 15-year old having to take care of your kids, because you can't even move and get out of bed?
That's the nightmare that so many are living all over this country. And I want to bring in this woman, so you can see what it has meant for her family to get through it.
And then, I want to bring back one of the earliest guests we had on the show, about Coronavirus. We, you know, she disappeared on us. We were worried.
So, I want Sanjay to kind of guide us through both of their stories about what it takes to make it through this, all right? Sanjay, thank you for looking at my X-rays. I appreciate it.
Thank you for not billing me, I think. I don't know if there was a bill involved. If there was, I want to talk about it. I thought that the assessment was just average, just so you know.
All right, listen - everybody loves Sanjay. It makes me unique that I'm the only person who doesn't like Sanjay Gupta. When New York sneezes, Connecticut gets cold. That is a very savvy thing and a warning from the Governor of Connecticut. Being right next to the epicenter has big problems.
But we're seeing something different in Connecticut, in terms of its density, as a state, versus the number of cases. Have they figured something out in Connecticut? I'm going to find out next.
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CUOMO: A very interesting factor with Connecticut, it is our fourth most dense state, right? But it only has the 13th largest number of cases. Why? All right, let's bring in the Connecticut Governor, Ned Lamont, to discuss this.
Governor, first of all, this is good news. I know that you are seeing movements in your numbers, and it's a very fluid situation. Appreciate you taking the time.
Do you think that you learned something a little sooner perhaps, than other states, that have - has allowed you to stay away from the steeper curve in cases?
GOV. NED LAMONT (D-CT): We have. But let me first say, Chris, I really appreciate you being so honest about what you're going through. This is why we're all cheering you on every day.
And you can tell Sanjay Gupta, we just passed a no surprise billing, here in Connecticut, so you'd be safe here. Yes, we--
CUOMO: Yes. He got quiet when I asked him about the billing.
LAMONT: No, we've had an advantage.
You didn't have to be a psychic to know what was going on, Chris. We could look overseas. We could see what was going on in Wuhan. We could see what was going on in Italy. We could see what was going on in Seattle, Washington.
And I could look down in New York City where they had a, you know, one or two week head start. And that gave us an opportunity to hit the ball a little earlier in the game, and I think that makes a big difference.
And it's also, as you pointed out, we are dense but we're also a suburban state. We don't have any of the big metropolitan centers. There's no Downtown Queens. So, we've avoided a lot of the worst of those hot zones.
CUOMO: What does it mean to you, as the Governor of Connecticut, to hear the President say, "You know, we're really not in the testing business. It's really about States and hospitals."
A month ago, he said anybody who wanted a test would get one through the federal government. Now he says it's really none of his business. What does that mean to you?
LAMONT: Well it's not the right policy prescription. I think he should be rolling out a national testing strategy just so - just as he should be the one buying the PPE, and buying the equipment, or buying the ventilators, and distributing that.
But I'm not going to sit around complaining about that. I'm working with your brother. I'm working with Phil Murphy in New Jersey.
I want to get together with them and figure out our testing strategy, not just what we do for this region now, what we do afterwards, what we do in terms of some of the antibody testing, so we can prepare for what comes afterwards.
CUOMO: Yes. I'm hoping to be part of those trials. I'm hoping to get through this and, you know, let my blood be something that we can help, other people, with serum enrichment. I got to get there first. But I'm looking forward to it.
In terms of the road forward, where is your head in terms of states getting together, and creating a buying consortium? Yes, you probably have to have the federal government administer it. But you guys can't keep competing against one another this way.
I know it's done in good faith. I've been dealing with your state, and New Jersey, and what happens with New York with PPE. Everybody's acting in good faith. But it's like an impossible system right now.
What's the chance you think it changes?
LAMONT: Look, there's a supply chain out there. It's been corrupted. The black market, the gray market is taking over the supply chain. They're picking up a lot of commercial product, and reselling it, at a steep premium.
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And you're right. Every state is out there, desperate for vents, desperate for PPE, and we're paying for it, if we can get it.
You know, for me, it's a little like overpricing. And the last moment that car, you know, it doesn't make it there, the surge pricing, it takes off, and that vent goes somewhere else. It's just no way to do it.
CUOMO: Nursing homes, obviously, there's such an acute vulnerability here. Is it still true that the State is not tracking how many nursing home employees test positive? And, if so, what do you need to do about that?
LAMONT: We're testing the nursing homes more and more vigorously. We're separating out anybody COVID-positive, they're going to a separate wing, or they're going to a separate nursing home.
We're doing everything we can to get more protective gear for our folks. They're first-line responders, going into those nursing homes. We do not want a Kirkland, Washington incident happening here in Connecticut.
But it's risky. I mean we were the first ones to say "No guests going into a nursing home" just, you know, and that was hard. I got calls from people, who said, "You won't let me see my mother," and I was just saying, "If you love your mother, this is a time to teach her to Facebook - FaceTime."
CUOMO: I know. It's just so hard for them, especially if - if the patient gets in extremis.
And there's so many stories of people not being able to be with loved ones, when they pass. But you do have to benefit giving the most people a chance to live. These are all hard choices, Governor. I know that and I know it's a struggle for you.
I appreciate you taking the time. You will always have a place on this show to make your case to the audience.
LAMONT: Chris, thank you very much. And we're cheering you on every day. Hang in there, brother.
CUOMO: I'm one of the lucky ones! Governor Ned Lamont, thank you very much, Connecticut.
All right, we saw so much bad news come out of that nursing home in Kirkland that the Governor just referred to, in Washington, right? But there is some good news that got delivered to one family on a stretcher. Watch this.
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KAREN GOHEEN, DAUGHTER OF INFECTED KIRKLAND, WA NURSING HOME RESIDENT, TESTED POSITIVE FOR CORONAVIRUS: My mom is coming home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank God and the Son (ph).
GOHEEN: Yes, we're survivors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yay! Praise the lord.
GOHEEN: Survivors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God is good.
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CUOMO: Now, we have been following this story for weeks. That is the Mom of Karen Goheen, the nurse who I met on the show, introduced you to her. She wound up getting a nasty case of COVID. She went into the hospital for a little bit.
She came back out. Couldn't see her mother, you know, in part of that first explosion of cases there. Now, she's getting to a better place. So, it's great. Karen's going to be back with us for an update.
And also, we're going to take you through living the hard way, this family that is really the postcard for the pain that COVID can cause.
And we'll bring Sanjay back to get perspective as well. Stay with us.
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CUOMO: You know we've talked a lot about the various tolls that COVID will take on you if you get it, and certainly on a family, if it's more than one.
For a lot of people, it's not just the physical. I mean that's bad enough, obviously right? And it's also the emotional, it's also psychological, it's also financial.
So, living with this virus is a real challenge on many different levels, even more when you've got to take care of your kids, and you have a spouse, who's up against it, and you're up against it.
I mean there's so many people that fall under this category. But the people I want to introduce you to, right now, have really battled uniquely.
First, I want you to meet Lauren Thomas Mandel, OK, mother of four, 17, 15, seven, and five. We really could end the story right there. That is an amazing task to take on all by itself, let alone building in COVID to the mix.
Her husband and she are both positive. He is now - has hospitalized. He just kept working, he's a doctor, and eventually he literally like basically collapsed and he went in there with a double pneumonia, OK?
Now, a couple of the older kids who were helping with the younger kids are showing symptoms. So, we have her with us.
Also, with Lauren is Karen Goheen of Washington State. She was one of our first guests about this because of everything that was going on with her mother, and her brother, and her father, they all had Coronavirus.
And now, we're getting some great resolves out of their situation, and that really just boosts your spirit, you know.
And Dr. Sanjay Gupta is with us all as well.
So, I wanted to make this just a big conversation, and anybody who has something they want to say should - should just say it.
But Lauren, I want to start with you, and just give us the state of how are you guys doing in the family. I mean you guys are really up against it.
LAUREN THOMAS MANDEL, TESTED POSITIVE FOR CORONAVIRUS, FAMILY BATTLING CORONAVIRUS: Well today, we got hit with my 15-year old when she definitely came down with it. So, I've been trying now to deal with the 5- and the 7-year olds.
They don't really quite understand what's happening, and they want to be with mommy, so we have a little makeshift room for them, in my bedroom. They brought in tables and chairs. And I've actually had to feed meals today and, for the first time, really had to get out of bed and, you know, try and be a parent.
CUOMO: How are your symptoms?
MANDEL: Besides the breathing, I still get short of breath. Thank goodness, I - first, my husband, before this whole thing came to a halt, to bring him a pulse ox machine, and I think I check it about every five to 10 seconds.
My pulse ox is fine. It's between 97 and 99, which gives me a little peace of mind. Friends are sending me millions of things, music, everything, you know, to try and keep me calm.
I listen to as little as possible about my husband, not that I don't love him, and want him to get better. But the more I get upset, I cry, I get stuffy.
And my taste came back tonight, so I'm so excited. That - that's fabulous. I just want the fever to go away. If the fever and the cough could go away, I would be--
CUOMO: How long did you have the fever?
MANDEL: So, the fever, I don't know what your fever is like, you know. You think you're fine. You think you're better. And then boom, you know, at night, or whatever it is, you have the fever. You don't even know. The thermometer tells you. And you want to like just cry because then, you know, you're not better.
CUOMO: Yes.
GOHEEN: Right.
[21:35:00]
MANDEL: You know, the fever has been up - upper 90s, a 100 at the highest, that's since the day one, pretty much on and off.
CUOMO: And what day are you on now?
MANDEL: Tonight starts day 12.
CUOMO: And look, that is really the norm, you know, this idea that people are going to get through it in a few days and, you know, yes, some are blessed with that path, but very few, most of us, it's weeks, let alone when you're going to have to deal with all of these offsetting impressions.
Now, with us here, Lauren, I have Karen Goheen, who's a nurse, who also battled through this. She had to go into the hospital a little bit. She came back out.
What let you know, Karen, that you were really going to be on the other side like how long did it take before you felt like "OK, the Beast is at bay for real now."
GOHEEN: Yes. It was about 15 days before my fever - I stopped having headaches and fevers. And I was in the hospital.
And I started getting my appetite back. And - but I still needed oxygen for another four or five days. But the - but after about 15 days, that's when my fever stopped, and I started to have any appetite at all.
CUOMO: And in terms of what made the difference for you, do you believe, in terms of what got you past it? Was it just a coefficient of time? What do you think helped most?
GOHEEN: Well, you know, I think at the beginning, I was so caught up in this being the epicenter of the pandemic, and following the news, and being so anxious about family members, I didn't rest very well.
And I think if I could have rest, and shut off my brain, in those early days, maybe I wouldn't have gotten so sick.
But then, when I was in the hospital, I started listening to music that calmed me down at night, and helped me just sleep, just relax. That was - that was really helpful to me. And then I started getting better. So that's--
CUOMO: Hey Lauren, did you hear that from Karen? Have you tried that? Have you tried a little bit of music at night to help?
MANDEL: Yes. CUOMO: I mean you have real, you know, you have real concerns, as did Karen, you know. Her mother was stuck in that nursing home. They couldn't find out anything about her. Her father was in the hospital. Her brother was sick.
But, you know, you got to worry about the little ones, and I understand that. So, what about that? A little bit of therapeutic music at night, or you think that won't work for you?
MANDEL: I do that. I've been doing that during my panic attacks. The panic attacks are regular. She's laughing, so she must have had them too.
GOHEEN: Yes.
MANDEL: They're very regular, and you don't know if it's the COVID, or if it's panic attacks. And, as I said, then I've run to the pulse ox, and check, make sure that my oxygen levels are good, and calms me down for about 10 seconds.
CUOMO: So, I had my pulse oximeter on me, when I was getting my chest X-ray because you don't know for me to get (ph) real kind of paranoia. I put any paranoid person to shame in terms of what a hypochondriac I can be. This is the worst setup for me to get this sickness.
So, when I saw that X-ray that I showed to people earlier, the second I looked at it, I saw infiltrate on it, even though I don't know what infiltrate even means, except as a verb. And I'm in a panic as soon as I saw it.
So, Sanjay, a lot of people now, you know, God love them, people have been so good and supportive, they're seeing the X-rays, and they're saying, "Holy cow! You're really sick. I see the infiltrate in there."
Will you explain--
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --to people how having some infiltrate doesn't mean that you're necessarily in a bad way.
GUPTA: Yes, right. I mean, you know, infiltrate, you know, for the purposes of diagnosing this, usually means, and we could put up the X- ray again, I can show you, you know.
With that first X-ray, you're sort of looking at this, you're looking at the chest from the front, you're looking at straight, yes, there it is so, you know, that's the right lung and the left lung, and - and the black areas are the air-filled spaces in your lungs.
You're looking in those areas, so those - those sharp edges at the bottom of each lung, you want to make sure they - they stay sharp that you don't give fluid that's sort of accumulating in that area.
Again, you know, it's a little bit hard to tell on television there. It is a little bit hazy in - in some of those areas in the more center of your lungs, so maybe a little bit of infiltrate in that area, but not - not significant, nothing that's sort of accumulated there - there, Chris.
But, you know, you'd look at that.
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: And you'd say maybe this is somebody who's dealing with a little bit of a respiratory infection.
So, you know, and then - and then, of course, the other - the other X- ray that you should was looking at the same, obviously, picture just from the side, and sort of confirms the same thing.
CUOMO: Right. And look, again--
GUPTA: There it is there. So, again, and the spine is right in the middle and then--
CUOMO: --I'm sick, so that's why it looks like that.
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: Yes, and that's OK. You can be sick.
GUPTA: Exactly. I mean, you know, I--
CUOMO: It doesn't mean you're going to have pneumonia. And I just want people to feel OK about that. If I'm OK with it, you should be OK with it.
And what I want to do is I want to take a quick break, and I want to talk about where we all want to get.
Karen's going to give us some video that show us like what a beautiful ending is for her story.
[21:40:00]
And I want to talk with Lauren about what she sees coming in the future, where she wants to get with her family, because there's so many families like hers in this country right now. And I - I believe that if you talk about it, it makes it more likely that it happens.
So, let's take a quick break. We'll come back with Sanjay, Lauren, and Karen, next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: All right, God willing, none of what we're talking about applies to you. But so many are up against it in this country, and I just wanted to give you a cross-section of what people are able to deal with, OK, because our strength is phenomenal.
So, you've got Lauren Thomas Mandel with us. She has the virus. Her husband is a doctor. He has the virus. He's in the hospital. They've got four kids, 17, 15, seven, and five, and the kids have been picking up the virus, and she's having to deal all of this at once.
[21:45:00]
And we have Karen Goheen, who dealt with the virus early on, but she's got a beautiful ending for us that I want to start with, so we can keep our optimism.
Karen Goheen, I want to play that video of what brought us to you in the first place was that your mom was in that nursing home, where they had all that big blast of cases, in Washington, and it was all about when we'd--
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: --be able to see her, and is she OK, and does she have it? And finally, finally, finally, many weeks later, what is the scene that we're looking at?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(VIDEO OF WASHINGTON STATE FAMILY WELCOMING HOME 89-YEAR OLD MOTHER WHO CONTRACTED CORONAVIRUS IN NURSING HOME)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOHEEN: That's the scene of her being delivered to my house in an ambulance because she's going to come live with me where we can keep her safe, here at our house, and reunite her with my dad.
CUOMO: Beautiful.
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: Yes. It's just such an amazing ending to such a really tortured story.
Now, I know you wanted to know from Sanjay, as a nurse, you had a question for him about what, you know, what your risk profile is, and when. What's your question?
GOHEEN: Yes. So, I was wondering, if as a recovered COVID - COVID-19 person, can I safely assume that I'm immune to the virus, and that I'm not able to - I'm not contagious that I'm not going to transmit it to anybody, if I say, go shopping at the grocery store?
GUPTA: Right, right. So, well first of all, I'm - I'm glad you're - you're doing better, and that - that is a really sweet video of your mom.
GOHEEN: Thank you.
GUPTA: I'm sure she--
GOHEEN: Yes.
GUPTA: --feels very loved, and it's very nice to see.
We don't know the answer to your question. And that's--
GOHEEN: Yes.
GUPTA: --that's not a dodge. But you got to remember. As you know, as a nurse, you know, we're - we're early--
GOHEEN: Yes.
GUPTA: --early days into this. So, I'm just--
GOHEEN: Early, yes.
GUPTA: --even learning listening to you guys talk about, you know, what you guys are experiencing. I think we're all learning a little bit. I think it's safe to say that you're likely immune. I've asked lots of--
GOHEEN: Yes.
GUPTA: --Infectious Disease doctors about this, the type of virus this is, there's - there's no reason to think that after you've gone through this, and you've recovered, you should have some immunity. So, how long that lasts? We don't know. But you should - it's unlikely you get infected--
GOHEEN: Right.
GUPTA: --again. Now, having said that--
GOHEEN: Right.
GUPTA: --it doesn't mean that you couldn't still be harboring the virus in your - in your nose and throat.
So, people think that even days before they develop symptoms, and maybe even weeks after, they could still potentially be transmitting this virus, which may be why the virus is spreading the way that it is.
GOHEEN: Yes.
GUPTA: So, I think - one thing I would tell you, and you already know this, again, but just for everybody else, I mean stay home as much as possible, obviously.
GOHEEN: Yes.
GUPTA: If you do go out, and you're going out to an area, where you can't reasonably social distance, you know, grocery store, pharmacy--
GOHEEN: OK. Yes.
GUPTA: --something like that, now, just as a - over the last few days, the advice is to - to even wear some sort of face covering. And the reason that you're wearing a face covering--
GOHEEN: OK.
GUPTA: --is because if you still are harboring the virus, you - it'll decrease the likelihood of you transmitting it to somebody else. So, that's--
GOHEEN: OK.
GUPTA: --that's it. But--
GOHEEN: Good advice.
GUPTA: --but it's good to see someone like you recover.
You know, you know, Chris, I got to say as well. We see the numbers on the screen all the time, number of people who've been infected, number of people who've been hospitalized, et cetera.
GOHEEN: Yes.
GUPTA: I think we should - we should start showing. Maybe your show should start the number of people who've recovered from this as well.
CUOMO: Yes.
GOHEEN: Yes.
MANDEL: Yes.
GUPTA: Talk about optimism, you know, statistically--
GOHEEN: That would be good.
GUPTA: --most people are--
CUOMO: People don't measure it.
GUPTA: --are likely to recover. Yes.
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: They're not giving us good data on it though because it's about how you want to count that. Do you count it as people who exit the hospital? Do you count it on people who wind up reporting that they're symptom-free? You know, it takes us back to testing.
GUPTA: Go on, right.
CUOMO: But Sanjay and I were talking about that a couple of weeks ago before I got sick that I wanted to do it. You know, it's interesting, watching Karen and Sanjay talk, the difference in your eyes, between yours, and mine, and Lauren's.
Lauren and I are getting visited by the Beast right now. The fever comes at night.
GOHEEN: Oh, yes.
CUOMO: As you'll remember, Karen.
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: And I'm seeing it in Lauren's eyes--
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: --where your face just starts to get hot. And I saw you grabbing for the water. I know - I know where you are. And I feel for you so much.
MANDEL: Yes.
CUOMO: The kids, as an element, are you able to do what you need to do for them right now? Is there any kind of help that you need that we could help with, Lauren?
MANDEL: Well my 7-year old puts herself to bed somewhere around 1 o'clock in the morning, I think. I have a makeshift play room in her room now. She has everything.
And she's calling my mom at like 11:30 at night, 12 o'clock at night, coming in to check on me, and then, I don't know. And then, finally, I don't know what happens. I do fall asleep, and I don't - no idea what she's doing.
The other ones, thank goodness, go to sleep so.
And my house will definitely need some kind of infestation repair. Thank goodness, my husband's not here because he would not get better looking at what my house looks like right now in any way shape or form.
CUOMO: Well let's do this.
GOHEEN: That would be so hard.
CUOMO: I'm going to stay in touch with you.
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: And see how your family's going through it. I know Karen is saying it would be so hard, and she dealt with a lot herself.
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: And that's why you guys remind me just how lucky I am. And that's why I take it so seriously, trying to do what I can for people who are up against it. So, Lauren, I'm going to stay in touch with you every day.
MANDEL: OK.
CUOMO: And make sure how the family's doing, and what you need. Obviously, when you're - when you're not feeling it, don't answer. That's fine. I just want you to know we're here.
[21:50:00]
And Karen, same for you, just to make sure that your mom stays well, because--
GOHEEN: Yes.
CUOMO: --you know, we're all - we're all the family we choose now in this situation.
GOHEEN: Yes, right, Chris.
MANDEL: Sure.
CUOMO: Everybody matters.
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: And we know it. Sanjay--
GOHEEN: Yes. I'm glad you guys--
CUOMO: --thank you for being the best of us.
GOHEEN: I'm glad you guys have those--
CUOMO: Go ahead, Karen.
GUPTA: Thanks for having me. Best of luck to you guys.
GOHEEN: --pulse oximeters. Yes. Thanks, Chris.
CUOMO: Yes. That's been a good thing.
GOHEEN: You guys take care.
CUOMO: I love you guys.
GOHEEN: We'll be thinking about you.
CUOMO: Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
MANDEL: Thank you. Well you get better, stay better.
GOHEEN: Love you too, great.
CUOMO: I appreciate all of you.
GOHEEN: Thanks so much.
CUOMO: Lauren, most of all, most of all. Boy, am I impressed by her? I'm telling you I can - I can barely put a shirt on.
She's got four kids, 17, 15, seven, and five. Her husband's in the hospital. She's making her way through. That's the resilience that I'm talking about. It is awe-inspiring to me.
Something else, what does love and respect sound like? It's like this. This is tonight's daily dose of gratitude for healthcare workers in New York City, our heroes. Listen to this.
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(SIRENS WAILING)
(VIDEO OF NEW YORK CITY HONORING HEALTHCARE WORKERS WITH NIGHTLY APPLAUSE)
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CUOMO: This happens in the City every night, a City-wide clap at 7:00 P.M. Eastern. I'm going to play it for you every damn night because this is what's going to get us through, this collective conscience that we know what you're doing for us, our brothers and sisters.
We think about you. We care about you. We're here for you, just the way they are here for us. That's the beauty of it, the mutuality, the possibilities for all of us together, as ever, as one.
What have I learned over these last 72 hours and what do I know is coming next? That's the argument.
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[21:55:00]
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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CUOMO: All right, so here's what I've learned. Here's the secret to kick in this virus. It's not a pill or a potion. It's about your will and devotion.
The virus wants us to lay down. The virus wants us to take it. Other than the blessed few, the rest of us who get this are going to have an experience unlike anything else they've ever had, days and waves.
The old notion of "Get in bed, and stay there, when you get sick," it sounds great. And if you're really up against it, you need to do as little as possible. I've been there. Trust me. I know. But you can't stay there. Now I'm wise to the Beast and its ways, it changes.
The fever is just softening us up. It's making your body hurt, so you don't want to move your body because what it wants to do is get in your lungs. That's what it wants to do. I feel it, constricting my chest. When I had that chest X-ray done, I - I saw that infiltrate right away.
Now, I also have something else I haven't told you. I have a low IgM level, which is the primary immune response antibody.
I've always had a low level, OK? It's not something recent. Could be genetic, it could be cultural, I don't know. But it makes me susceptible to things like bronchitis and crap like that.
So, there I was, on Friday night, OK, I was not going to do the show tonight, I was done. I was in a pool of sweat. 12 hours later, I was in the same damn place. I hadn't slept a minute. I was just soaked and scared, honest to God.
So, then I get a call from a friend of a friend of a friend. Now, this keeps happening to me now. This new reality of how much people just care, I have this new network, of not just sources, but really good people, and they all come this way, friend of a friend of a friend.
Why? Because we're all battling this, all over the country, and the world, and people want to beat the Beast.
So, this doctor calls me up, asks me about my symptoms, he's a pulmonary expert, and says, "Can you get up?" I say, "Yes, I can get up." He says, "Do it."
He says, "Can you stretch your torso?" I say "What do you mean?" He says, "Put your arms over your head." I go like this. I'm like "Oh, God. Yes, no, doesn't feel that good." He said, "Do it."
He said, "Can you hold your breath for 10 seconds?" I said, "Probably not," to be honest. He said "Do it."
And then, he gave me the key. He said he heard me say that I wanted to keep this out of my lungs, and he said, "I saw your X-rays. It's in your lungs. And you got the right fear and you got the wrong approach. You can't wait it out."
He said "You have to fight," and not in some silly metaphorical way. This isn't about like channeling Rocky or Eye of the Tiger.
You've got to do the things that will beat this virus. You got to breathe deep when it hurts, and it hurts. I know it hurts. And I'm not trying to minimize anybody's pain.
When you get a fever spike, and that hurts, he said you can't take confidence that it's going to go down. There're going to be spikes for at least 10 days when you get a fever. You got to layer up, you got to drink, you got to take Tylenol, and you got to fight back. You've got to make that fever go down any way you can.
The chest gets you. It makes you small. It's - it's really what defines this COVID. And the COVID is banking on you doing nothing, your indolence, as the doctors call it. It wants us passive, on our backs. It wants us to do nothing. The answer has to be to do everything.
I lie on my side. I like on my stomach. I'm up. I'm doing my breathing. I know I've got that stuff in my lungs. I'm not going to lose to this thing that way. No way, no way I'm going to do that to my wife, and my kids, and all the people who care about me. I'm not going to the hospital for something that I can avoid it, if I can avoid it.
So, that's it, all day, all night, Hundo P, 100 percent, that's why I have to keep working, first of all, because I can. And if I can, I should. And it's because it's a way for me to help. There has to be a purpose to this.
You know, I'm not just going to go through the suck here for some sense of self-satisfaction and make it through. I want to write this all up. I want to get it out to you guys afterwards, so you have a better chance against this than I did.
I'll show you the X-rays, the good and the bad, the blood work hopefully to come, my supplements, my diet. Why?
I want you to have it easier than I did. That's a part of my job too, to give you the information that helps you have a better life, especially now, and to return the favor for you guys being so incredible with your love and attention.
That's why I had to come at the government, specifically in the prism of this President, when he says things that play to our weaknesses. It's not his job it's, you know, to not to - to test, that really?
He doesn't want the federal government to test? What the hell is his job, if it's not to do everything that he can? This has to be desperation on all fronts.
