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U.S Death Toll Tops 40,000 As Need For Testing Grows; Today, Florida Governor Meets With Reopening Task Force; Novartis To Test Hydroxychloroquine. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 20, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Top of the hour. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

It's fairly simple when you speak to the experts. If you want to control this virus, the country needs to have tests for this virus broadly available. As the death toll tops 40,000 people now here in the U.S., the governors of those states say we don't have the resources to get to full testing capacity. And mind you, that's Republican and Democratic governors. That contradicts what the president is saying.

HARLOW: Many of those governors standing firm on those restrictions to keep the virus from spreading, and for all those who are protesting the restrictions, Dr. Anthony Fauci, he has a message for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Unless we get the virus under control, the real recovery economically is not going to happen. So what you do if you jump the gun and go into a situation where you have a big spike, you're going to set yourself back.

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HARLOW: Let's begin this hour with Brynn Gingras. She joins us with more in New York, the nation's epicenter. I mean, a really clear warning there from Dr. Fauci. We have a long way to go and that's what officials in New York are saying as well.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Governor Cuomo, Poppy, has said, essentially, we're at half time. Yes, the numbers are going down, less people are being hospitalized, but still these measures need to be adhered to in order to keep those numbers to continue going down. And we do have a long wait to get down, to the bottom, in fact, opening up the economy, opening up business again. Now, if you guys remember just a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about ventilators, the need for ventilators in order to fight this disease inside the hospitals. Well, now, in order to reopen the economy, testing is the major concern, as you guys have outlined for your viewers. And it's governors all across the country, both Republicans and Democrats, saying we need Washington to step in.

Just over the weekend, the president essentially said it's up to the states to get their testing up to capacity, even taking it a step further, saying there were governors who were not utilizing their resources available to them. In some facts, he said some are complaining about this issue. But our recent Harvard study has said only 150,000 people are getting tested daily when we need three times that number to even start this process of lifting some of these restrictions.

The governors are saying, listen, the help we need is we need lab technicians and we help getting the supplies, reagents, we need help getting the nasal swabs. So there is just a number of issues that governors keep pointing to, again, on both sides of the aisle in order to get more tests, in order to take even the next closer inch to actually getting this economy back to where it used to be.

HARLOW: And, Brynn, just as you were speaking, we've heard that Mayor Bill de Blasio of New York City is cancelling all non-essential big events in the month of June in New York. That would be parades, concerts, rallies, large gatherings, just showing how long this reopening in this city will take. Brynn, thanks so much.

So let's go to South Carolina because you have four coastal communities there pushing back on the governor's plan to ease some restrictions to the public beaches today, Jim.

SCIUTTO: National Correspondent Natasha Chen, she is in Columbia, South Carolina. So this is something we've seen in a lot of states where the local leaders, they want to be safer, more conservative, get different direction from the state level. So how does that play out on the ground there?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. So we are seeing that there is a protest planned here in Columbia on Friday of people protesting stay-at-home orders. So you would think that they would be pleased with reopening businesses.

But I did just speak with a Democrat in Greenville, South Carolina who is running for Congress. She and some others with public health backgrounds have a Facebook group with more than 28,000 members urging the governor not to do this.

She told me she was absolutely floored by this announcement. She feels that this is dangerous considering South Carolina has not hit its peak yet, and she says that the retail workers will be struggling with that decision to balance between earning a paycheck and risking their lives, essentially, with this announcement.

SCIUTTO: Natasha Chen there in South Carolina. Well, the White House Coronavirus Task Force says that it is keeping an eye now on the Boston area because of the spread of new cases there. Massachusetts Governor Charlie Baker said the state is, quote, right in the middle of the surge now. It's interesting, Poppy, because you're seeing different states, communities reaching that surge at different times.

HARLOW: 100 percent. Let's go to Athena Jones.

[10:05:00]

She joins us live this morning with details. Good morning, Athena.

ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Poppy. Well, Massachusetts, as a state, has now surged to the third spot just behind New York and New Jersey when it comes to total number of confirmed coronavirus cases. That's significant, 38,000, more than 38,000 confirmed cases in the state of Massachusetts, more than 1,700 deaths. It's important to note about 6,000 of those cases are in long- term facilities in the state.

But as you mentioned, the White House Coronavirus Task Force is taking a particular look at Boston. We heard this from Vice President Pence saying that while New York and Long Island and other metro areas are beginning to stabilize, they're keeping a close eye on Boston, Dr. Deborah Birx calling it a hot spot. That is because about 45 percent of the cases in the State of Massachusetts are coming from the greater Boston area, Suffolk County and Middlesex County, which encompasses Cambridge.

And so let me show you what the Boston Globe has done to try to highlight the death toll and the real toll this virus is taking, not just on the State of Massachusetts but beyond. They put together 16 pages of obituaries on Sunday. Usually it's seven compared to this Sunday this time, this Sunday last year.

Now, I should be fair, this is not just deaths in Massachusetts. This includes other states. There are mentions of other countries, but the idea here is to highlight that this is a real issue.

We know that Governor Baker says, as of right now, the hospitals do not appear to be overwhelmed going into the weekend. A large percentage of beds were still available, but they're keeping an eye on this.

HARLOW: Athena, thanks very much. It's been quite an increase there for Boston.

Let's talk about all that's developed, where we are this Monday morning. Dr. Ashish Jha, Director of the Harvard Global Health Institute, is with us. Thanks for being here, Doctor.

DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Good morning. Thank you.

HARLOW: I want to get to testing in one minute. But if you could just respond on what we heard Athena report, and just a juxtaposition, look where New York is, look at the beaches opening in South Carolina and then look at Boston sort of surging. What should we make of this?

JHA: Yes. So thank you for that question. A couple things, I mean, so we are really in the thick of it in the greater Boston area where I am, and I think the next -- this week and next week are going to be very hard weeks for us. But it's a reminder that different parts of the country, different cities, different states, different towns are going to surge at different times. And so we don't have one spike and a plateau and a decline, but we really are going to have a whole series of them rolling across the United States. And whatever place is the hot spot, we really have to focus our attention on and help that place get through it as safely as possible.

HARLOW: Okay. So we heard over the weekend from the president and the vice president both saying that there is sufficient testing to at least go to phase 1 of reopening in some places. So many governors, Republicans and Democrats, countered that with their own facts on the ground. You believe we need 500,000 tests done a day just to even think about reopening. Where would that put us?

JHA: Yes. So we're doing about 150,000 now, and our estimates of 500,000 really are very conservative. What we've been trying to think about is what is the absolute bare minimum. And the way to think about this, if we open up and you go out to your Dunkin' Donuts and pick up a coffee, you want to be pretty sure the person serving you coffee isn't infected and shedding virus. When you go to a restaurant, you want to know that your waiter isn't shedding the virus.

The only way we're going to be able to know who has got the infection, who's not, who's shedding and not, is if we're doing a lot of testing. If we can't test more than we're doing right now, the idea that it's going to be safe for people to go out and live their lives in the economy is going to be very, very difficult for most people, and I think a lot of people just aren't going to do it.

HARLOW: we heard from Ohio's Republican governor, Mike DeWine, yesterday on Meet the Press, and he said that he could probably double or even triple testing virtually overnight, quote, if the FDA would prioritize companies that are putting a slightly different formula together for the extraction reagent kit. Is that a good idea? Basically, is some red tape getting in the way here?

JHA: Yes. So, look, we have to come up with lots of different solutions. Every state has a different bottleneck. And what you need is a federal government that's deeply engaged helping states. Right now, we have a federal government that keeps giving the wrong message to the American people. They keep saying, we don't need any more testing, we don't need any more testing. That's just wrong.

And I don't think -- I actually don't think even the experts at the White House agree with that. They know we need more testing. I don't understand why that's the message, but, yes, the federal government has to partner with states and help states ramp up testing, and the federal government needs to be a really important facilitator there. And that test could be very helpful to Ohio. [10:10:01]

I don't know the specifics of it.

HARLOW: Right. Okay. So I'd like to focus the remainder of our time on antibody testing, because I think this week, especially people are going to start hearing a lot more about this, reading about it, but there are risks depending on which test is used, right? Because the FDA relaxed some guidelines and a lot of tests have flooded from outside of this country into this country that people can buy themselves and they think they're totally protected and that's not necessarily the case.

JHA: Yes. This is going to be a huge problem over the next couple weeks. So in February, the FDA was so difficult to approve any test, and we couldn't get testing going. Now, I think they've gone the other way and they're letting every test, anybody who builds a test almost getting FDA approval. And that means there are a lot of tests out there that are creating lots of false positives. So if you get one of those antibody tests and it says you're immune, there is a very good chance that you're not immune.

And so we really have to be very careful about this. We don't want to give people wrong information. They're going to get hurt by that. And we do need more FDA oversight to make sure the high-quality tests are the only ones being approved.

HARLOW: Yes, know which one you're using.

Okay. Finally, 30 seconds left, this plasma. Basically, 60 Minutes did a great piece last night looking at putting plasma from people who had COVID into patients. And we just -- what is your read on that? We don't know if it's going to work, but does it look promising to you?

JHA: Yes. So first and foremost, we don't know. We don't have like great evidence. That said, this is an area where I am optimistic. We have a long history of doing this in medicine. There is some preliminary evidence that it works here in COVID. So I am optimistic, but at the end of the day, we're going to have to let the science tell us yes or no. We'll know very soon whether the science is there.

HARLOW: Yes, in just a matter of weeks. Dr. Ashish Jha, thank you so much for being with us.

JHA: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Yes, listen to the science.

New York City cracks down on non-essential events through the month of June, just days after Jacksonville, Florida did the opposite, opening beaches. Look at those pictures there. But do we need a consistent, cohesive national approach if we're going to beat this as a country? We'll discuss, coming up.

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SCIUTTO: Later today, Florida's governor, Ron DeSantis, will meet with his reopening task force. This comes just days after the mayor of Jacksonville, Florida opened up public beaches, as you could see here. Those beaches were very quickly crowded with people.

Joining me now, Democratic Congresswoman Donna Shalala of Florida. She was also the Health and Human Services Secretary under President Clinton. Congresswoman, thanks so much for taking the time this morning.

REP. DONNA SHALALA (D-FL): You're welcome.

SCIUTTO: So when you see those pictures of people crowding the beaches in Florida, are orders like this at this stage to reopen putting people's health at risk?

SHALALA: Yes. It's not only putting Floridians' health at risk, Jacksonville is right across the border from Georgia. And it tells you that one state can't make a set of decisions that are inconsistent with public health and with science because it's going to affect another state. I think that decision was reckless.

Look, I represent beaches. I represent Miami Beach, South Beach, Key Biscayne, some of the most wonderful beaches in the country. We closed them down. We closed them down in the middle of spring break once we realized what the connection was with coronavirus. We've got to stick with the science.

But it shows you how undisciplined the leadership of this country has been, because we do not have a consistent message and a consistent strategy working with the governors. There is no question the governors have enormous authority here, but the federal government has to play out its role.

Representative Raskin and I have introduced a bill to do exactly that. We outline what the federal government's role is. Number one, they ought to provide all of the equipment that the states need, including all of the testing.

We are competing against each other. The hospitals are competing against each other. It's the wild, wild west and we're paying more than sticker prices. We're paying bonus prices to get the equipment needed, even including testing devices.

So the Feds have to take that over as they did during World War II in terms of the War Production Act.

SCIUTTO: So let me ask you about that, because every official we speak to on this broadcast, and I ask Republican and Democrat that question, do you need testing before you reopen safely, and they say, yes. And then their next answer is we don't have the testing yet. Because of that -- and you're hearing the same from the president's own health advisers, Fauci included, because of that, is discussion of reopening right now on a national basis or a state basis or a local basis, is it premature?

SHALALA: Absolutely premature, but more than premature, it's dangerous. We don't have testing. We haven't tested all of the first responders. First, you do testing the way we're doing it, and that is for therapeutics to find out who has the disease. But then you have to test a much wider group of people testing for control and then getting the numbers down to one so that you can follow up on the one person who has infected another person. You can follow up that case and pin it down.

[10:20:02]

The states have to come up with their own strategies, there is no question. They have to be based on science. But then they ought to go to the federal government, probably the secretary of HHS in our bill, and present their plan and then we've got to fund it. Congress is willing to fund these plans as long as they're based on science.

But we need a much more disciplined strategy in this country or we're going to continue to see these spikes, and it's totally irresponsible to start talking about opening up before you have the scientific basis to open up, the public health strategy.

Once we have that to wrap our arms around, then we can talk about opening up. But we're not testing people in grocery stores.

SCIUTTO: Well, you start there. I mean, we haven't even started on a broad basis testing the healthcare workers.

There is discussion now on the latest expansion of loans to small businesses, adding perhaps $25 billion to testing. It strikes me whether it's frustration or amazement. What you're saying right now, we've heard for weeks, right? There needs to be a national strategy, money, plans, et cetera. But here we are getting into late April. Is any of this -- are you seeing evidence of this happening, a plan to even get the swabs, right, basic equipment like that at the state and local level?

SHALALA: Well, here is the problem. It was important for us to bring in the private sector. But each of these machines, these testing machines, require their own reagents. And so since we don't have uniformity, you're negotiating with different companies for swabs, for reagents and for other things. That's why it's so important that the federal government should have stepped up and taken over this process and then distributed everything that everybody needed fairly. Only the feds can do that.

SCIUTTO: So what do you do? What does Florida do? What does your district do? What does Arkansas, New Jersey and all those places we talk to, what do they do if they're not getting that leadership?

SHALALA: The governors are providing some of that leadership. Some of them are being pushed around by their business community and by people that want to get back to work.

Look, I am going to fly to Washington this week. I want to get back to work too. Is it safe for me to fly to Washington? Probably not, but I've got to do my job. And like first week (ph), they can -- if the first responders can do their job and take some risk, members of Congress can certainly do that.

But my state does not have widespread testing, and the place I'm going into does not have widespread testing. As far as I know, the members of Congress, unless they showed symptoms, have not been tested. But I don't want to be tested before the people, the first responders, the people who are working in my hospitals and in the grocery stores and the drugstores here are being tested.

SCIUTTO: Well, let's hope it happens soon. They deserve it. Congresswoman Donna Shalala, Thanks so much to you and good luck and safe travels.

SHALALA: Thank you.

HARLOW: All right. The president has touted the drug, hydroxychloroquine, as a game changer. We've heard it a lot. So what are the facts? When does it work, when does it not? We will soon have some definitive answers. We'll bring you a live update on that next.

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[10:25:00]

HARLOW: Well, Novartis just announced it now has FDA approval to test hydroxychloroquine as a potential treatment for coronavirus patients. Our Senior Medical Correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, joins me now.

What do we know about this Novartis test and then other drugs that are actually showing some promise here?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. Poppy, actually, Novartis is joining a large group. There are more than two dozen groups in the U.S. alone that are studying hydroxychloroquine. There are many other drugs out there. But this one has gotten so much attention because the president has been so enthusiastic about it. And today, results of a large study are expected to be announced.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: For weeks, President Trump has jousted with health officials over the drug, hydroxychloroquine, to fight coronavirus. The president seems to be a big fan.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: What do you have to lose? I'll say it again. What do you have to lose? Take it. I really think they should take it.

COHEN: But the nation's top infectious disease doctor says we need to study it before we know if it works or not.

FAUCI: There are no proven safe and effective therapies for the coronavirus. COHEN: Today, we expect to get a hint as to whether hydroxychloroquine could help treat coronavirus patients. Preliminary results are expected from the first large-scale study of the drug in coronavirus patients. Funded by the state of New York, it involves hundreds of hospitalized patients and was conducted by the university at Albany.

New York not only making headway on investigating possible treatments for the coronavirus, but on testing as well. Governor Andrew Cuomo on Sunday announcing that his state will conduct the largest antibody survey in the nation. If someone has antibodies to COVID-19, it means they were infected and may now immune.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): We will take thousands of tests, antibody tests, over this next week all across the state to give us a real snapshot, a real baseline of exactly how many people were infected by coronavirus.

[10:30:02]

COHEN: Public health experts are hoping to eventually conduct widespread antibody testing across the nation.

END