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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
President Trump And Members Of Coronavirus Task Force Hold Daily Briefing; Trump Signs Order Banning All Immigration To U.S.; Bank Of America Economists Estimate Government Will Need To Spend $1 Trillion On Small Business Loan Program. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired April 22, 2020 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: It's two dynamic forces opposing each other. If you leave the virus to its own devices, it will take off if you do nothing to stop it. If you put into place the kinds of things that we talked about, first containment and then hopefully you never get to mitigation, but containment is important.
Those two forces are going to determine whether you're going to have a big outbreak. So what Dr. Redfield was saying, first of all, is that we will have coronavirus in the fall. I am convinced of that, because of the degree of transmissibility that has the global nature. What happens with that will depend on how we're able to contain it when it occurs.
And what we're saying is that in the fall, we will be much, much better prepared to do the kind of containment compared to what happened to us this winter. Now, the complicating issue is that unlike the syndromic and influenza-like observances that we have, that you could pick it up by clinically what's happening, it's going to get complicated by influenza season. And I believe that's what Dr. Redfield was saying that it's going to be complicated.
So whether or not it's going to be big or small is going to depend on our response and that's what I think people sometimes have misunderstanding. Nobody can predict what is going to happen with an outbreak but you can predict how you're going to respond to it and that's really very important.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you would caution against people thinking that in the fall there's not going to be coronavirus anymore and we won't have to worry about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or if it is, it'll be spotty and it won't be a big problem like we worry about.
FAUCI: There will be Coronavirus in the fall. If we do, which we won't, but let's take an imaginary period (inaudible) forget about it, we're not going to do anything about it, it will take off. That's what viruses do, but that's not what's going to happen. We're going to respond to it to not allow it to do that. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Fauci, what happens when governors like Gov.
Kemp are not following this careful measured plan and moving forward even without meeting the gating criteria? (Inaudible) about that?
FAUCI: Well, if I were advising the Governor, I would tell him that he should be careful and I would advise him not to just turn the switch on and go, because there is a danger of a rebound. And I know there's that desire to move ahead quickly. That's a natural human nature desire.
But going ahead and leapfrogging into phases where you should not be, I would advise him as a health official and as a physician, not to do that.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: OK. Go ahead, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. President. Can you please gives some details about the executive order? I know that the White House has just released this document, I haven't had a chance to review it.
TRUMP: Well, we can talk about that later, so the executive order and immigration, we want Americans have the jobs. We want Americans have the health care. We want to take care of our citizens first, we have to and it's a very powerful order. It's for 60 days, at the end of 60 days or maybe even doing 60 days of extended or not and they'll maybe change it, I might modify it. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) for immigrants who are already here, Mr. President?
TRUMP: Yes, go ahead, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Immigrant who are already here in the country or immigrants abroad who are already affected would have a green card trying to get into the country and health care workers.
TRUMP: We're talking about immigrants that are trying to get in and we're talking about the people and also by the way, people that are coming in illegally. Now, as you know because you've seen the numbers, our border, our southern border is very, very tight. It hasn't been this tight in years. It's being helped by 116 more than that miles of wall that are going up. I'm trying to get to 450 by the end of the year, 450 miles, and we'll have 530 miles early next year and that's really great.
It's fully funded. We have all of the funds and the Army Corps of Engineers is doing a fantastic job. Same people that did Javits Center as you know. They're doing a fantastic job. So our southern border is very, very tight for good reason, for very good reason.
We're also being helped by 27,000 very good soldiers from Mexico and I want to thank the President of Mexico. He's been terrific in many ways, including on what we're doing with COVID. And as you know, we have a very good trade arrangement with Mexico now, which we didn't have before, so I want to thank the President of Mexico in particular for the 27,000 soldiers. They're doing a fantastic job. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you want to talk about the advantage for
health care workers, sir? You want to talk about the advantage for health care workers?
TRUMP: We want to protect our health care workers and that's one of the other reasons we're doing this. Yes, John (ph).
JOHN(?): Mr. President, I want to ask you about Rick Bright. He's the head of the federal agency in charge of getting a vaccine out to Americans once it's ready. He says he has been pushed out of his job because he raised questions about hydroxychloroquine and some of your directives on that. Was he pushed out of that talk?
TRUMP: I never heard of him. You just mentioned the name. I never heard of him. When did this happen?
JOHN(?): This happen today.
TRUMP: Well, I never heard of him. If a guy says he was pushed out of a job, maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. You'd have to hear the other side. I don't know who he is. Please.
JOHN(?): And on the hydroxychloroquine ...
TRUMP: Hold on one second, please. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to - you said by 4th of July, you expect people - we have a National Mall and we'll be having a celebration like we did last year.
TRUMP: I hope so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Given what the doctors are just saying that coronavirus is still going to be out there, might not be as bad as it is now, but it's certainly circulating. Is that going to be safe to have that many people in the mall?
TRUMP: Well, we're going to probably have 25 percent of what we had last year. Last year, as you know, was maxed out. I saw a magnificent picture of Dr. Martin Luther King and I saw a magnificent picture of our event last year and both of them were maxed out. It was beautiful to see, beautiful. Very similar.
This year, most likely, we'll be standing six feet apart. We'll have to do that in a very, very interesting way and maybe we'll even do it greater. So we'll leave a little extra distance. But if we do that, we'd certainly do that. I don't see maybe the purpose if we can't do that. We have to have people, thousands, we had 10s of thousands, most of you were there, 10s of thousands of people, it was incredible.
And it was to an extent an air show of all the different aircraft flying over. We even had Air Force One flying over. So ideally, it would be wonderful if we could actually have it as it was last year and eventually we will have that. I think it's important to know eventually we are going to have that. Stadiums are going to be the way they've been for the last hundred years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) be able to have by July (inaudible) ...
TRUMP: No, I know, but the stadiums, as an example sports, going to be the way they used to be. I mean, I told one of the owners, he said, do you think I should take out seats? I said, no, you shouldn't take out seats. We're going to have it the way it was. We're going to be back. This virus will eventually be gone.
And if it should show up in the fall, we're going to put it out very fast. We have great people. We're going to put it up very fast, because we've learned a lot. We've learned a lot about how to deal with this. And we'll put it out very fast. Yes, please. (Inaudible) ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You talk a lot about testing capacity and governors agree that that exists, but it's very different from testing implementation and they are still begging for you to use your full authority to help them get reagents and other things. As you would like to say, what do you have to lose by helping them do that and becoming the king of testing.
TRUMP: Well, I am going (inaudible) and let me just say, we are thinking of testing already. There's no country in the world that's done more, not even (inaudible) ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (Inaudible) point 2 percent of the population has been tested, is that good enough?
TRUMP: I just said there's no country in the world that's done more and we have tests that have already come out that are going to be introduced very shortly that will do it more. My problem is this, it's very much of a media trap. Whether we did 2 percent, 5 percent, 50 percent or a hundred percent, it'll never be enough no matter what.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One point two percent.
TRUMP: Now, with the expertise and with what we did because of our expertise and tremendous talent manufacturing what we did with the ventilators, that wasn't a trap, because we got them done shockingly to everybody, because of the incredible talent like Mike Pence saw yesterday in Wisconsin. But we have numerous of those sites all over the country doing the same thing.
So that when the governors were complaining, some of the governors, I must say, and it was very much along party lines for the most part, but when they - except for one. When the governors were complaining, we said no, no, how many do you need, we need 50, we need a hundred, one governor asked for many, many, many thousands and it turned out they didn't need that and that's good. We got them.
And nobody that needed a ventilator, you know this and we went through this with the governors, that needed a ventilator did get a ventilator. That was an incredible achievement. With testing, it's a little different. It's much easier than
ventilators. It's like 2 percent. But, for instance, the swabs are coming in by the millions. They're coming in, literally coming in by the millions. Totally ordered. We wanted the highest quality. We could have gotten a much lesser quality. We didn't want to do that. We got the highest quality.
But testing, it's like no matter how well you do you can always say more. With a ventilators, they either have them or they don't. In fact we went to one meeting, who wants to ventilator, one governor said, we'd like 25. Twenty-five, you got them. Who else? Nobody spoke up. That was four weeks ago. So that was great. The probably the testing is, as I said, if we test 350 million people, you'll say, no, we want them to have a second test or a third test or a fourth test.
Not everybody believes as strongly as some people on testing. Some people want to do testing because they think it's impossible for us to fulfill that goal. That's easy compared to ventilators, as I've said. But we have a tremendous testing capability better than anybody in the world right now.
And every day, it's growing and it's growing very substantial. These doctors are very talented people. They've seen testing all their lives. They've never seen anything like we've been able to do.
So we're going to give everybody what they want with the testing, but again, testing, and I've said it from the beginning, the actual test has to be administered locally. You can't do from Washington or faraway locations, federal testing, nearly as well as you can where you have a governor, he has mayors and they have representatives and they know the back of a Wal-Mart, put it in the parking lot in the back of a Wal-Mart or put it in a certain location in different states.
They're doing it beautifully. It's working beautifully. The relationship I have with the governors and Mike has and we all have with the governors, I would say other than one or two, but even then they don't complain. They're not complaining. So we're doing tremendous testing and ultimately we're doing more testing I think than probably any of the governors even want. OK, please.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Back on the immigration EO, can you say is it just for green cards, for green card holders or is it also for people seeking temporary work visas?
TRUMP: The green cards were subject - it's subject to change. We have some people coming in, for instance, helping the farmers. We want to have the farmers take care. They've been coming for years and years and they're helping our farmers and they've been coming in for years.
We don't want to do - the border has been turned off a number of times over the years and you know what happened? Our farmers all went out of business. They were out of business. They couldn't farm. We're taking care of our farmers. Nobody ever took care of farmers like I take care of farmers, including the $19 billion that we're dispersing to farmers because of some very good things that happened.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Subject to change because some of your advisors are saying there could be a problem with it or subject to change because (inaudible) ...
TRUMP: No. No. Just it might be modified. It could be modified next week, in two weeks. It could be modified in two months. No, we may modify it as we go along. But right now we have a very powerful immigration ban, but it could be modified, meaning made tougher or made less tough.
We don't want to hurt our businesses, and we don't want to hurt our farmers, very important. Please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Inaudible) conversation with Gov. Kemp, what did he say to you when you said you strongly disagreed with him and, of course, for gym owners and tattoo parlor artists and barbers in Atlanta and Georgia generally, would you advise them to listen to you and not to their governor?
TRUMP: Look, I'd like them to listen to their governors, all of their governors. I have the right to do if I wanted to clamp it down, but I have respect for our governors. I know what they're doing. And as you know, Brian Kemp, Governor of Georgia I worked very hard for his election. He beat their superstar. He beat the superstar of their party. I think you can say I helped a lot.
Michelle Obama, Barack Obama, Oprah Winfrey, they all went into campaign for him very, very hard and he lost. He also was weighed down in a primary and ended up winning a primary after I came out and endorsed him. So a lot of good things and there's a lot of good feeling between myself and Brian Kemp. I like him a lot.
I happen to disagree with him only in time and timing, I disagree. When you have spas, beauty parlors and I love these people. I know the people from spas and beauty parlors, tattoo parlors, Bikers for Trump, a lot of tattoos. I love them. I love these people. And barber shops, these are great people.
But you know what, maybe wait a little bit longer till you get into phase two. So do I agree with him? No, but I respect him and I will let him make his decision. Would I do that? No, I'd keep him a little longer. I want to protect people's lives. But I'm going to let him make his decision.
But I told him, I totally disagree. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. President. The Vice President in his remarks is talking about the federal efforts that have been undertaken as it relates to nursing facilities and as you both know, they've been just so incredibly hard hit just tragic, over 10,000 COVID-19 deaths so far.
The industry says that they're struggling as it relates to testing, can you commit to increasing testing at the nursing facilities (inaudible) ... TRUMP: Yes, we're doing that automatically. I mean, that's almost
common sense. But we're doing that automatically. I mean, you look at the State of Washington, that was our first glimpse of it. They got hit so horribly in that nursing home. It seem like like everybody was from a particular nursing home.
So we knew immediately that was going to be a problem and we're doing that a hundred percent. We're taking very special care of our nursing homes and our seniors, other than me.
Other than me. Nobody wants to take care of me. But other than me, we're taking care of our seniors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And other area ...
TRUMP: Yes, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. President.
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, it's just an enormously important question and we want to thank the American people who have been putting off visits to their grandmothers and grandfathers and moms and dads. It's tough. I'm going to be in Indiana next week and I'm not going to go see my mom. She lives in her own home, but people get it that the risk of serious illness for healthy American of the coronavirus is fairly low. You'll either have flu-like symptoms or no symptoms at all.
But as we've said so many times this podium and the American people get it, a healthy American could inadvertently convey the coronavirus to a senior with an underlying health condition and have the kind of heartbreaking results that we've seen in nursing homes around the country. It's the reason why from early on, the President took decisive action to raise the infectious disease standards at every nursing home in America. He deployed all 8,000 of our inspectors, Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services to dedicate all of their time to ensuring compliance with those new higher standards.
We've spoken about nursing home issues with governors around the country and, frankly, there are governors around the country that have done remarkable work with nursing homes. You mentioned Gov. Brian Kemp. He actually used the National Guard in Georgia. He deployed them to nursing homes to do cleaning and to disinfect areas of those nursing homes and it's a tremendous service.
But to your point about testing, if you look carefully at the guidelines open up America again, you will see that in phase one, the level of testing that we contemplate is first that we want to be able to test anyone who has the symptoms that may be coronavirus and be able to test them quickly. Secondly, we want to do the kind of contact tracing and Dr. Redfield and his team are deploying CDC teams in every state in America to be able to find out everyone that person has been in contact with and test them. But if you look right underneath that, what we're directing states to
do is be prepared to deploy testing resources, first and foremost, the nursing homes and long-term care facilities so that we can monitor any potential outbreak of the coronavirus among the most vulnerable population.
Thanks to the leadership of our Surgeon General, as the President announced today, we're also going to be deploying testing resources to vulnerable communities, to underserved communities. The CDC released new preliminary data on the impact particularly on African-American communities in this country and it's the reason why part of our phase one recommendation is that we deploy testing resources into those communities that are described by the doctors as socially vulnerable.
And even as we speak, we'll announce next week that we're already in the process of deploying testing. And so it's a good opportunity to remind every American to be especially careful around our seniors, to heed the guidance about avoiding visitations, to protect the health of those who are most vulnerable.
But the American people can be assured that from phase one forward, all the way through phase three and reopening, we're going to be helping to guide the states to focus on the most vulnerable beginning with our seniors with serious underlying health conditions.
TRUMP: (Inaudible) right behind you, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. President.
TRUMP: (Inaudible) ...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Commercial labs says that they need to buy new diagnostic machines to be able to double their testing capacity. Your administration has said that there's enough testing capacity to double overnight. How do you kind of square that difference?
TRUMP: Very easy, they can get new machines if they want, but even if they didn't, we have tremendous testing capability. You take a look at what's happening in California and New York. Gov. Cuomo told us very strongly, he said, wow, we have a lot of labs. It's a research center of the world. They have tremendous in California too, long conversations. They have tremendous testing capability there too.
Now, if they want to increase it, they can increase it, but they have plenty right now. You saw that maps the other day where we put up the different sites in various states and virtually all states are like that. How about you wear the mask? Nice of you to wear a mask.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Mr. President, may I follow up on those maps from the other day?
On Monday, a reporter for a local television station in Miami sent me a question asking if it was possible to get the information on those maps distributed to the media so that local TV stations and newspapers can check on that information, so that can be done ...
TRUMP: (Inaudible), do you want to do that? Do you want to say something?
DR. DEBORAH BIRX, WHITE HOUSE CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: All right. Thank you for talking about testing and testing capacity, because we have been talking about that for several weeks. Because we could see and we did a full inventory of every single state and every single laboratory.
And I also appreciate you talking about the implementation piece of the testing capacity and it's complicated. So we have been - we have a team calling every lab and working through the American Society of Microbiology, as I mentioned before, to really work with every lab director to see what the issues are in each laboratory. And I just want to thank Administrator Verma, who really worked on increasing the funding for this test and uniquely doubling the funding for the coronavirus nucleic acid test from $50 to $100 to really address some of the issues about laboratory technicians, because sometimes we think these tests run themselves. They don't.
They actually need people to help with the machine. So we're talking about purchasing more machines. We actually need to have additional laboratory technicians to really be able to work all of those machines. And so it's lab by lab, state by state and that's the dialogue that's going on now to unlock the full potential of the United States.
Maybe the testing would not be needed at this moment and maybe it is, but we want it also totally available in the fall if it comes to an issue where we have to distinguish between flu and COVID-19. So we're building infrastructure and capacity, not only for today, but for tomorrow and really showing a new way to really deal with pandemics and bring testing to scale, because the country has never had to do this before.
I mean, if you look at some of the other countries, they're struggling with some of the issues from PPE to testing. And so this is a universal issue, but we're working on it as a collective to really have a very innovative and integrated way to approach testing.
TRUMP: But without (inaudible) they have tremendous capability.
BIRX: And the maps are - I will ask the companies because obviously it's proprietary where every single machine is. And if you have that machine and five others, maybe you don't want to know - let that person know you have five others. It's kind of like Coke and Pepsi.
So I think we're working very deliberately to really be able to share those maps. The governors, I can tell you that the all of the state governors and the mayors have those maps and the addresses and the type of machine for every single laboratory in their jurisdictions, so that they know.
TRUMP: And many of the governors were not aware that those laboratories were available. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dr. Birx, before you leave, on the State of
California is now partially broken with CDC restrictions on who would get guidance on who should get testing, because they want to test people without any symptoms at all in high risk environments like a nursing home. Do you agree with this? Vice President Pence, do you agree (inaudible) ...
BIRX: Well, not only do we agree with it, it was in our guidelines.
PENCE: It's on our guidelines, yes.
BIRX: That was fundamental to our guidelines and I think we were the first group that said, testing asymptomatic will be key. We've always said that we think that's a significant contribution to infections.
And we went to the places where we thought it was most critical, define cases the earliest and so that is where we have asked states in the guidelines to start with nursing home indigenous peoples and people in underserved areas and cities to really ensure that we're monitoring for any type - because we know that a symptomatic piece may be the tip of the iceberg. In fact, be the iceberg underneath the surface.
And so if you're only seeing cases, maybe this - but in parallel, we're working with states and local governments to really define what that population is by doing in collaboration with states working with them together to really reinforce this antibody testing, but in a careful way, where you do two antibody testing to increase your sensitivity and specificity into the 99-plus percent range. Because we think it's really important that you have a very high quality test, but a high quality test that you can really tell someone that they've had this before.
And so we're waiting to have those two tests that we can do in series to really assure people. But that was in the guidelines from the very beginning and we think it's fundamental, both for right now and going through the fall, because that will be our early alert if any of the COVID virus reappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much more testing (inaudible) ...
TRUMP: John (ph), you didn't know that was in the guidelines?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's currently in the CDC guidelines (inaudible) --
TRUMP: No, but it's right in the guidelines.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dr. Birx, (inaudible) --
TRUMP: Jerome, would you like to say something on that, please? VICE ADM. JEROME ADAMS, U.S. SURGEON GENERAL: Thank you, Mr.
President. And I just want to reiterate to everyone that the task force and the administration have a commitment to protecting vulnerable people and that includes in the area of testing. We've had the opportunity to talk to many different groups and we hear that testing is absolutely a concern and we'll be giving you more details in the coming days.
But I just want you to know that we're building on the public private partnership that the President rolled out with pharmacy and retail companies like CVS, Walgreens, Rite Aid, Wal-Mart and Kroger to accelerate testing for more Americans in more communities across the nation. We're going to be increasing access to testing for under tested, underserved and minority communities and we're working closely with partners and states to establish sites and areas most in need of increased access to testing.
We're using data. CDC provided data to locate sites and counties that are under tested and socially vulnerable, especially with high populations of black, Hispanic, rural and Native Americans. We're using the CDC's vulnerability index as you heard about earlier to select sites. This measures the resilience of communities when confronted by external stressors along four main themes; socioeconomic status, household composition and disability, minority status and housing type.
Our goal, our goal is to have about two-third of these initial sites located in counties with moderate to high social vulnerability and about a quarter of these sites and counties with high social vulnerability. So again, I want communities that are vulnerable to understand that we are strategically and intentionally making sure we're deploying testing in those areas so that people can get identified if they have symptoms, can get identified if they are asymptomatic and that we will be able to deploy resources appropriately.
TRUMP: I'm going to say our Surgeon General is doing a great job, thank you. Great job. Really good. (Inaudible) ...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, thank you. Can we talk about Iran? You've put out a message this morning making a rather big announcement for our military when it comes to Iranian aggression. Are you going to change formally rules of engagement for our U.S. military so that they can engage ...
TRUMP: Well, it was covered a hundred percent. We don't want their gunboats surrounding our boats and traveling around our boats and having a good time. We don't want them anywhere near our boats and so you know the order I gave. I don't think I have to say it again, but I've given that order. Under the ...
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: All right. And Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
You have been listening to the President and the members of the President's coronavirus task force. Moments ago, the President introducing his director of the CDC, asking him to clarify comments that he made to "The Washington Post." This is Dr. Robert Redfield. He said that the outbreak will be more difficult than what the United States is going through now in the fall and that he couldn't get people to understand that in meetings.
Only Director Robert Redfield did not walk back his comments and when he was asked directly, were you quoted accurately in "The Washington Post," he said, yes. It is going to be more difficult in the winter. It comes on the same day that a top doctor involved in finding a vaccine says he was pushed out of his job because he called for more vetting of the unproven drugs the President was touting as a treatment, specifically hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine.
The President just moments ago at this briefing talking about that doctor, Dr. Rick Bright, who again is the most senior administration official in charge of a vaccine. The President's comment when asked was he's never heard of him. Can that be true and if it is true, what does that say?
Joining me now, Dana Bash, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our fact checker Daniel Dale also with me as we begin our coverage here.
Daniel, let me get straight to you with that point. It was a pretty stunning moment when the President was asked directly about Dr. Rick Bright, who is the most senior administration official in charge of a vaccine and was confronted with what Dr. Bright said in a statement to The New York Times. Dr. Bright said that he was pushed out of his job and he said that he was speaking out, because he thought science, not politics or cronyism has to lead the way.
He continued to say, "Contrary to misguided directives, I limited the broad use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine promoted by the administration as a panacea, but which clearly lacks scientific merit." The President is asked about Dr. Bright and he says he's never heard of him.
DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Erin, I find that very, very hard to believe.
First and foremost, let's just say that's true. He's an avid, voracious consumer of news and information. And so -- and this has been the top of the news for the past couple hours or was before he went into the briefing room. So he had to have known this.
It reminded me -- I don't know about you, but it reminded me of that time on Air Force One when he was asked about Michael Cohen and paying off a woman and using payments to do that and he kind of said, oh, I don't know what you're talking about and then he moved on really quickly.
It was a very similar reaction to this. And I think the tell was in the attempt to follow up and ask, never mind the scientists but about the drug, hydroxychloroquine, about what he thought about it, he didn't want to go there. He went quickly to another reporter. That, as I said, was the tell.
And if you kind of take a step back, think about how brave it was for Dr. Bright to say what he said, internally, but then to make it public, and it is a pattern. It's a pattern that we are now seeing and that includes having the CDC director come out and kind of fall on his sword. It's the second time in two weeks we've seen the scientists, you know, be at odds with the political leadership or the political direction, I should say, of the president and the others in the administration.
BURNETT: And Kaitlan Collins is us now.
I want to -- I want to talk more about Dr. Bright. But, Kaitlan, first, I want to ask you about the head of the CDC, Dr. Robert Redfield, which is the first person the president basically wanted him to say that the story as it was covered about his comments to "The Washington Post" was wrong.
And then I believe it was Jon Karl, he asked specifically to Dr. Redfield, did you say, and here's the quote, there's a possibility that the assault of the virus on our nation next winter will be more difficult than the one we just went through? Dr. Red field's response, yes, I said it. I was not misquoted.
So, the president wanted him to walk it back, but the bottom line is, he said what he said.
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erin, this is the second time the president has had one of his health officials come out to clarify comments that they made where they do not clarify them, they just simply restate them.
This happened when Dr. Fauci said something that was obvious to Jake Tapper that if mitigation practices had been put in place earlier, then lives would have been saved in the United States as this outbreak was spreading. That is obvious. So was what Dr. Redfield said when he said that the coronavirus outbreak is going to be more difficult to deal with if it's happening on top of flu season.
So the question there, as he came out, you know, he reaffirmed the statements he made to "The Post". I want to note, he did not address the comment that he also made to "The Washington Post" in the extensive interview yesterday where he said the president's comments about the protesters going against the stay at home orders in certain states. Dr. Redfield said they're not helpful to the social distancing practices they're trying to get the nation to follow to flatten the curve and save lives. He did not address that in the briefing just now either.
BURNETT: And I want to ask you, Daniel Dale, about that point. Kaitlan is saying the president as we know has been -- he's the one behind the guidelines and yet, going to Twitter and encouraging protesters to go out and protest the very guidelines that he has put out, right? So there's that inherent contradiction.
Tonight, also, a lot of confusion, talking specifically about the state of Georgia and Governor Kemp, right, who Trump did campaign for, and made a point about that, coming out and saying nail salons, hair salons, spas, tattoo parlors can open on Friday. The president came out tonight and couldn't have said it more clearly or more times that he completely disagreed with Kemp and told Kemp that. That's different than what the president seemed to say hours ago, isn't it?
DANIEL DALE, CNN REPORTER: Yes. I mean, we heard from him yesterday. Brian Kemp is a capable man. He has the right to do what he wants to do, and he said we're going to see what happens.
So I think this is obviously reversal. You can call it a flip-flop, but I think it's the kind of flip-flop that public health officials would be happy with. You know, he came to the place that Dr. Fauci and others want him to be.
I should note, Erin, while we're talking about the facts here, the president continues to make false claims about other governors. You know, the today talking about testing, he said, I think we're doing more testing probably than any of the governors want.
That's not what we're hearing from governors. We've had a procession of not only Democrats but Republicans like Mike DeWine of Ohio, Charlie Baker of Massachusetts, Kristi Noem from South Dakota, Pete Ricketts in Nebraska, Governor Hogan from Maryland, all saying they believe testing is insufficient and needs to be ramped up.
He also said when asked about the need for more testing that this is a media trap. This is not an anti-Trump conspiracy. We're hearing from tons of experts outside government, people like Dr. Scott Gottlieb, Trump's former FDA chief, saying testing needs to be tripled or something like it for a safe reopening for the country. So, this is not the media out to get the president. This is what we're hearing from experts and from members of his own party.
BURNETT: This is what experts are saying, Sanjay, and yet, the president is saying that he is very big on testing, and that some people are not that big at testing, including some of the professionals. That is not any professional that certainly I've interviewed on this program. Are you aware of any professional who is not big on testing?
It sounds like we have an issue with Sanjay's audio. But he can clearly hear me.
So, we'll work on that.
Let me go back to you, Dana. The other point, and this was very telling. I'm going to play for Sanjay in a moment. But you had Dr. Fauci who has, you know, not been at the briefing as often recently. And I'm going to ask Kaitlan about that. But he came out and explicitly said, we will have coronavirus in the fall, period. I am certain of that. He then circled back to say again, there will be coronavirus in the fall. That was moments after the president of the United States said it may
not come back at all, if it should show up in the fall. I found that to be a stunning moment.
BASH: And dangerous. Jeff Mason with "Reuters" asked the exact right follow-up question multiple times which is how do you know that? I mean, that is completely not predictable and not able -- he's not able to predict it in a real scientific way.
And, look, he should know better for lots of reasons, if not the least of which is this is one of the things that got the president in trouble in the first place, comments like this at the beginning of this round, saying oh, there's 15 cases and it's just going -- it's contained and we're not going to have anymore problems after this. You don't know. And that's the reality.
And that's to kind of look at the president and go back several hours to Andrew Cuomo where he was being completely transparent about the fact that we don't know what we don't know, and this is a very difficult decision. I mean, talk about an illustration of two completely diametrically opposed ways to approach this.
And again, the president doesn't like to go back to things he says that turn out to be incorrect, but that was very dangerous terrain. He was standing on.
BURNETT: Certainly. OK, I believe we have Sanjay back.
Sanjay, dangerous, of course, that he's obviously not a doctor, an epidemiologist or public health expert, and they are saying the opposite. The president was really clear. It may not come back in the fall. It may not come back at all. That was his quote, talking about the fall.
Dr. Fauci, same press conference a few minutes later. We will have coronavirus in the fall. I am certain of that.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, this is quite striking, because I was at the original -- some of the original press conferences when President Trump said this is going to go away. We only have 15 cases. And clearly that wasn't the case. And that won't be the case.
I mean, the reason -- the one constant in all this is the virus. I mean, the reason that we started to have some plateauing in the numbers is not because the virus has changed. It's because we've changed. Our human behavior has changed and it's made a difference, and that's a good thing.
But the virus is here. I mean, what you've heard if you put together over the last few months is that until there's a vaccine, we're really not going to be able to control this virus. We need to have some form of social distancing. We're going to need to have a lot of testing so we can start to contain things. The virus is a constant.
I mean, I hate it. Everyone hates it. This is something that's spreading around the world and it's very contagious and it can be lethal. But it's -- that's the constant. Everything else has to sort of circulate around the virus in order to mitigate the damage.
BURNETT: So, do you, Sanjay, I mean, I guess -- I guess this is a double question. Do you mind it believable, and if you do find it believable, how troubling is it, that the president would say he has never heard of him when talking about the person in his administration in charge of a vaccine, Dr. Rick Bright, who says he was pushed out of his job because he refused to toe the cronyism and party line of what he said lacked scientific merit drug, hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine, which the president has referred to as a possible game changer.
Is it true the president has never heard of him? I guess number one. And if so, whoa, what does that say?
GUPTA: Right. So, you know, Dr. Bright ran since 2016 BARDA, which is the Bio Medical Advanced Research Development Authority. It's a big division, and as you point out, really, at the forefront of vaccine development, which has been one of the most significant conversations.
I mean, if we have a way out of this mess, it's probably going to be through a significant therapeutic or a vaccine, maybe both. And so I don't know, Erin.
You know, there's a lot of people maybe Dr. Fauci who's obviously at the NIH has sort of been the conduit. So, I don't -- I would think he would know him because BARDA is an important organization. The second point, this idea that a scientist at that level said, hey, you know, let's just slow down. Let's do what we should all be doing, that we were all trained to do since we were in medical school. Get the data.
That's -- I think that's from what I've read, that's what he was asking to have done, Dr. Bright. And to somehow feel like he was pressured out of his job because of that, I mean, you know, I've had a lot of conversations with colleagues about this today, as you might imagine, big topic among medical colleagues.
It felt -- we were telling the stories out of China. You know, about doctors being pressured not to talk. I was stunned when I first heard that Dr. Bright -- and I don't know the full story. I guess he's still on the job but it's a narrower job description. He's not going to be doing the same thing he was doing before.
If it's true that he was pressured out of this job because he wasn't cheerleading for a medication that did not have scientific evidence behind it as of yet, maybe won't have scientific evidence behind it, that's really frightening I think from a medical and scientific perspective.
BURNETT: Well, the China analogy I think is fascinating. We hear about their lack of transparency and shutting down dissent or what doctors said to put some sign of a comparison out there is very sobering. Kaitlan, to the point of when doctors say something different than the
president, right, in the past you have the doctor bright example today, right? What he's saying. You have Dr. Redfield, the chief of the CDC, saying something to "The Washington Post", which he said he said, that the president says he didn't say it. And today, Redfield said he said it.
And then, you had Dr. Fauci tonight, as I said, just saying there will be coronavirus in the fall. I am certain of that. When the president says it may not come back at all, if it shows up.
Where is the president right now with Dr. Fauci who I should note has not been as regular presence at these briefings in recent days?
COLLINS: Yes. He -- this is his first briefing this week. We know he was there on Friday. But other than that he had been back at NIH, of course, where he works regularly instead of attending the briefings. And it's notable, because people always ask where is Dr. Fauci when he's not there, because what you see when he does come out here is he's the doctor who will offer a really blunt assessment of how he sees things.
He's not afraid to contradict the others sharing the stage with him or what people like Governor Brian Kemp of Georgia are saying tonight. He pushed back very strongly against the state of Georgia which I noted was a big difference from Dr. Birx when she was about the measures that Georgia was taking yesterday.
And so, the president has been careful to offer a lot of praise on Dr. Fauci in public. He's done this with other members of the coronavirus task force, talking about how he turned them into stars by bringing them to the briefings. But we also know that the president has privately bristled at just how candid Dr. Fauci can be. So, of course, that has been an obvious, you know, source of contention people have always been able -- have always wanted to watch.
Though Dr. Fauci has said the president has always listened to his recommendations, we know there have been times when they disagreed. For example, that Easter date the president set when he didn't have any data or science behind it. It wasn't a date the team behind him picked, certainly not the health experts.
And that was when Dr. Birx and Dr. Fauci had to go to the president and say we don't think this is a good idea. There are always questions raised, and, of course, as you see, once questions are raised, Dr. Fauci appears at the briefing tonight.
BURNETT: Sanjay, and to the point about Dr. Fauci, he came to the briefing not only did he clearly say the opposite of what the president said about coronavirus in the fall, and by the way, in so doing, putting himself on team Redfield, I suppose, but he also was quick to call out Georgia directly, which as you point out, Dr. Birx did not do yesterday. She really dodged that question.
GUPTA: She was very polite about it. I mean, she said we've provided the guidelines. We've made it as clear to understand as possible. There's still an outbreak going on. I don't know how you would social distance at a hair salon, but I guess maybe they'll get credit creative. That was the ambassador's response today.
Dr. Fauci said I'd advise him not to do that when asked about reopening things in Georgia. Dr. Fauci was asked that question, I think it was a second or third question, that was after President Trump came out and said that he had called Governor Kemp and said, I strongly disagree with the reopening of things in Georgia. So, they were in lockstep on this.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you all very much.
And I want to turn now to a very special CNN report. It is from Wuhan, China, where the virus originated. Our David Culver is there back on the ground in the city which has now started to reopen following a 76- day lockdown.
DAVID CULVER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): CNN back at the original epicenter of the novel coronavirus outbreak, Wuhan, China, and its more than 11 million residents, navigating this post- lockdown uncertainty.
Among them, American Christopher Suzanne.
(on camera): Let's switch out mask, what's your preference here.
(voice-over): He suggested we upgrade our protective equipment before going for a stroll. It's a city he knows well.
CHRISTOPHER SUZANNE, WUHAN RESIDENT: So, this place is -- you know, I was married here, I had a baby here. I've been here for the past ten years.
CULVER (on camera): This is home.
SUZANNE: Yes, this is home.
CULVER (voice-over): Christopher's home is slowly emerging from a brutal 76-day lockdown. He returned to Wuhan in the midst of it.
SUZANNE: I'm real happy to see people at least keeping their distance while going about their day.
CULVER: But just two weeks after the reopening, some here are closing the gap on social distancing. Many stores and restaurants keeping people from coming inside. But that's not stopping crowds like this one from standing shoulder to shoulder waiting outside for their orders.
In places like our hotel, there are noticeably stricter measures. Staff spraying us down each time we walk in and checking our temperatures. Inside, even the elevators telling you where to stand, offering you a tissue to touch the button tons.
But will it last?
SUZANNE: Like we are afraid there is going to be the second wave. I think everybody here knows.
CULVER (on camera): You think it's coming?
CULVER (voice-over): Yet there is growing skepticism over where the first wave actually originated.
(on camera): So this is where Chinese health officials believe the source of the novel coronavirus is, this is the Huanan seafood market. Of course, they believe other things may have been sold here, hence the transmission from animals to humans of this virus. But you can see it's all closed off, still. This has now been since January 1 that they shut it down.
However, I want to take you now to the lab where U.S. intelligence is looking into the possible origins of this virus having come from there.
(voice-over): We drove to the lab inside China's Centers for Disease Control just down the street from the market.
(on camera): This is one of the labs within Wuhan, not too far from the market either.
(voice-over): It's an origin theory Chinese officials quickly dismiss. They also push back on claims that their reported number of cases and deaths is far less than reality, even as numbers have repeatedly been revised upward to account for previous undercounts. Just last week, another 50 percent was added to the Wuhan death toll alone.
SUZANNE: Whether or not they want to share that information with the public here, it doesn't really concern me. I'm really more concerned about my family and what we can do.
CULVER: And others like this convenience shop owner, more worried about resurrecting their businesses.
I'm a bit worried. I don't know when we will resume completely.
As China claims to get the virus under better control in places like Wuhan, there's now greater concern about those coming in from elsewhere.
From our arrival in the city to the interview on the street, we were questioned repeatedly.
(on camera): I'm from the U.S. but I live in Beijing.
(voice-over): A group of plainclothes and uniformed police growing increasingly uneasy with our being there, a reflection of both their fear of imported cases and a mounting distrust of foreign media.
(on camera): We'll go in the car. We'll go.
BURNETT: All right. David joins me now live from Wuhan.
David, that was an incredible piece. Just exactly what people want to see. I mean, I want to ask you, because today we just heard in the U.S. as you know, from the former officer director of the office involved in developing a vaccine, Dr. Bright. He said he's been sidelined. He said it's because he questioned the use of potentially dangerous drugs that President Trump has pushed.
You have been reporting on a similar situation with the whistleblower in Wuhan. Tell us about that.
CULVER: That's right, Erin. Sanjay mentioned this with regards to how China was handling things regarding whistleblowers. One of the most famous, almost a national hero is Dr. Li Wenliang. And we actually spoke with him a week before he died.
This is a guy, Erin, who had no interest in becoming a hero. He simply wanted to alert his friends of something going around here that seemed like SARS. He was an ophthalmologist, worked in a Wuhan hospital.
His message was shared with police. He was reprimanded. They told him to stop spreading rumors and silenced him.
He wasn't the only one. Several other medical personnel and just regular citizens were likewise silenced. And that played into the government having to respond in some manner, because we saw an outrage here on social media, on Chinese social media which is heavily censored at times. In fact, they had to work overload in the censorship to cover his passing away.
And what ended up happening is the Chinese have now changed his image here to be a national hero saying that while he was ignored by the local government, they say the central government recognizes his heroics.
However, a lot of folks here still his early warnings been listened to, things would have been different, Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Perhaps different for Wuhan and very different for the entire planet.
BURNETT: Just to state the sobering and terrible reality. Thank you very much for that incredible report.
And I want to turn here in the United States, let's go straight now to Dr. Jonathan Reiner who advised the medical team at the White House under President George W. Bush, now director of the cardiac cath lab at George Washington University Hospital and, Dr. Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute.
Thanks very much to both of you. Dr. Reiner, the piece we saw was an incredible piece. I want to ask one crucial point coming out of it. The president of the United States is talking about wanting this July 4th parade, there will be fewer people. He wanted it back to normal.
Wuhan had 76 days on lockdown. And even, you know, there was -- there was a lot of those images looked sparse. He goes into the hotel and gets sprayed down and his temperature taken. That is not normal. Not for Wuhan and not for anywhere.
Is that what Wuhan is going to look like for the foreseeable future in the United States when we get to phase 2 and phase 3, Dr. Reiner?
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CARDIOLOGIST, ADVISED WHITE HOUSE MEDICAL TEAM FOR EIGHT YEARS: I think we have to stop talking about normal and we have to start talking about how we get to some acceptable form of the next stage.
The reason why the Chinese were able to essentially put out the fire in the epicenter for this pandemic is that they undertook really austere social distancing measures. They separated families, forced quarantines. Now people around with color-coded QR codes.
So, the Chinese made the decision they were willing to do whatever was necessary to put out the virus.
I don't see that same resolve coming from our leadership in Washington.
BURNETT: And, Dr. Jha, testing is obviously such a crucial part of this. You know, the president said he supports testing and there are some professionals who are, in his words, not that big on testing. You've talked a lot about testing and you have said that we are far in this country from doing everything we need to do.
How much more is needed?
DR. ASHISH JHA, DIRECTOR, HARVARD GLOBAL HEALTH INSTITUTE: Yes. So, first of all, that report from Wuhan really is extraordinary. Here is in very simple terms for Americans what they need to understand. If we're going to control the virus, either we're going to do it through extreme social distancing or we're going to do it through ubiquitous testing, lots and lots of testing.
We have estimated we need at least three times as much testing as we have right now. We have been flat for like 3 1/2 weeks. We have made no progress. I don't know which professional -- I haven't met a single professional who does president think we need a lot more testing and we're not making progress. It's baffling because the alternative is to stay shutdown. And that is not an alternative anybody likes.
BURNETT: And, Dr. Reiner, you talked about this.
BURNETT: Stalled is the word, you know, Dr. Jha is using. That's the word you've used. Does anybody explain why there is this stall in testing across this country?
REINER: You know, we may have the lab capacity, but we don't have the infrastructure to process the tests. Either it's the swabs or it's the reagents. So having lab capacity hasn't translated to testing capacity.
There was an interesting report that came out of the Rockefeller Foundation this week which is advocating an enormous expansion of testing to the point where we would be testing 30 million people per week within six months. Three million people per week within just a couple of months.
Just to give you a sense for how much increase in scale that is, we've only done about 4 million tests in the United States to date. So it's an enormous expansion in our capability. Most public health officials like Dr. Jha's group have advocated just such an aggressive form of testing.
BURNETT: And, Dr. Jha, you know, this comes as there still seem to be so many questions about this virus. I mean, you know, there's daily studies that come out. And I know, you know, some of them meet certain levels of scientific review and others don't, but they all make the point which is there's a lot we don't know. We don't necessarily know how it's transmitted, how long you can have it, how long you can be contagious, necessarily what parts of the body it affects in every person, who is more vulnerable. So many questions.
There's a new research today, Dr. Jha, showing a cluster in China. They have this whole map showing the restaurant where people were sitting, all of whom got it.
The take away they had was, maybe this thing is way more easy to spread than anybody thinks, possibly aerosol that could have come out of the air conditioning in the restaurant, which is pretty terrifying in general, and specifically for the possibility of reopening.
You know, what do you make of how little we know and a report like that?
JHA: Yes, we are learning a lot on a daily basis. We haven't heard of this virus six months ago.
So, the scientific community is working overtime trying to generate new data.
That study on the restaurant is interesting because one person, because of the air conditioning air flow, spread it to about eight other folks in that restaurant. So what I bring up is, are you going to feel confident going to a restaurant for dinner if you know there are infected patrons in that restaurant? You're not. No one is going to go to restaurants if they think they're going to get infected.
So the only way to bring confidence back into our economy is to have widespread testing so we know there aren't a ton of infected people walking around, going into restaurants, going into coffee shops. This is how we open up our economy -- this choice between economy versus health has always been a false choice.
And the only way out of it, social distancing or testing. Those are our two choices. I like testing better as a better way to keep our economy going.
BURNETT: Thank you both so very much.
BURNETT: And now from the health impact to the economic impact. Bank of America economists estimate it will take nearly $1 trillion, $1 trillion to save America's small businesses.
Now, among those hardest hit by the shutdown, though, have been minority small business owners.
Kyung Lah is OUTFRONT.
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As days turn to weeks and money fading fast, Kim Prince feels that she and her community's businesses are the ones getting burned.
KIM PRINCE, OWNER, HOTVILLE CHICKEN: They're dismissed. That's how it feels. It feels you've just been pushed to the side. You're not deemed essential enough.
LAH: Hotville Chicken in south L.A. is among the small businesses who applied for the Paycheck Protection Program. Hotville is a black owned business in a majority black community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a dark time for the city.
LAH: Joe Rosen (ph) leads a community economic group helping dozens of black and Latino businesses apply for the PPP.
(on camera): Eighty-three businesses.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eighty-three, yes.
LAH: And of those 83, how many of them have gotten the money?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As of today, four have actually been funded.
LAH (voice-over): Just four minority-owned businesses servicing an economically challenged community, where police choppers are common, but traditional bank loans are not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don't have a relationship with a bank, that's what we're hearing from our constituents, our clients, is that because they didn't have a strong relationship with their bank, they haven't been able to compete for those dollars.
LAH: Kim Prince just opened last December using her 401(k) and seed money from a local investor, but no bank. She's heard nothing about her PPP application, even as large chain restaurants received millions.
PRINCE: Access to that capital during normal times was already hard enough.
LAH (on camera): What about when you read that Shake Shack and Ruth's Chris got all the money?
PRINCE: Ooh, I was speechless.
LAH (voice-over): Shake Shack returned their PPP money and President Trump says he will ask larger recipients to do so as well.
Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin defended the overall distribution of the funds.
STEVEN MNUCHIN, TREASURY SECRETARY: We have over a million companies that have received this with less than ten workers.
LAH: The PPP out of cash now is on the cusp of a new multi-billion dollar funding deal. It reserves $60 billion for banks geared to learning to minority businesses.
BASEEMAH PENNA, OWNER, SUMMER SOULSTICE BOUTIQUE: So we bring the truck to you.
LAH: Like mobile boutique, Summer Soulstice.
(on camera): Have you heard anything?
PENNA: We haven't gotten an email back, a call, nothing.
LAH (voice-over): Owner Baseemah Penna set up in this parking lot for us. She's not able to open during the coronavirus shutdown. She hopes round two of the PPP will mean more businesses in her community will get the funding help they desperately need.
PENNA: We have been suffering the most. We've been hit the hardest.
BURNETT: And, Kyung, you know, when you look at that report, this issue has gotten the attention of the White House and Capitol Hill.
LAH: Yes. In the White House briefing, the president announced he would be tasking an existing White House counsel led by HUD Secretary Ben Carson to focus on how to help underserved communities, minority communities.
Now, in response I reached out to some of the businesses we spent time with in south L.A. and they said, quote, we'll see. They're very skeptical about words, Erin, and they are deeply concerned that real dollars won't make it into their businesses -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Kyung, we'll certainly, you know, we've seen it from small business owner after small business owner. Even with businesses with a long track record unable to get this money while much more bigger, more established companies, organizations were able to get it, you know, even when you look at some of those ivy leagues.
All right. Kyung, thank you very much.
And thanks to all of you for joining us. Our coverage continues now with "AC360" and Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Erin, thanks very much.
Tonight, with the coronavirus death toll approaching 47,000, the White House appears to be choosing loyalty and political concerns over science or even the simple truth.