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New York Times Reports, Hidden Outbreaks Were Spreading In U.S Cities Far Earlier Than Americans Knew; Source Says, Trump Praised Georgia Governor's Plan To Reopen State In Tuesday Call, But Said Wednesday He Disagrees With Move; Florida Governor Defends Local Leaders Who Reopened Beaches, Parks. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 23, 2020 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And Seattle by March 1st.

[10:00:02]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: And it's remarkable.

Also today, new details about the first known death in the United States linked to coronavirus. A 57-year-old woman from Santa Clara County in California was healthy, they thought. She had no underlying conditions and, quote, died suddenly. That happened on February 6th. It is alarming, and this new information is prompting more states to begin retracing their own timelines.

But states are also moving toward reopening at the same time. Georgia moving closer to opening businesses. We're learning that the president's task force had to convince the president to change his view on the governor's plans there in Georgia. Let's get to that in a moment.

But, first, let's get to this study, Elizabeth. What does this tell us and how did they get to these numbers?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Let's go right to the numbers and see what we have here. So The New York Times is reporting this is a model out of Northeastern University. So it's not looking at past infection per se, it's modeling what past infection would have been given certain circumstances.

So if you look on the far left, on March 1st, the CDC was saying 23 cases. That's a very small number. And they were all at this point, pretty much all, linked to travel, people who had been in Wuhan. But in Boston, Seattle, according to this model, there were actually 2,300 cases, in Chicago 3,300, and San Francisco 9,300, and in New York 10,700.

So, again, I want to emphasize this is modeling. This is saying, based on a whole bunch of data, this is what we think it would have been. But even if it's a fraction of what these modelers think, and these are very respected modelers out of Northeastern University in Boston, even if it's a fraction of what they think, it seems clear there were many more cases than the CDC was aware of. SCIUTTO: Other focus, of course, is --

COHEN: And this --

SCIUTTO: Sorry. I was just going to say, the other focus, of course, is on what treatments work and do not. There's been a lot of focus on a drug the president himself has pitched, hydroxychloroquine. A study from the Veteran Affairs granted a small one, showed it was not working, might actually be damaging.

There's another large study in New York. Do we know where that stands and when we're going to hear results from that?

COHEN: Right. So, Jim, this one is a bit of a mystery. We were expecting to hear preliminary results several days ago, and we didn't. We don't know where this stands. It involves the governor. It involves all sorts of people. Let's see take a look at what's happening with this large study out of New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: Coronavirus patients desperate for a cure, awaiting the results of studies on several drugs so they'll know which could work, including this one, hydroxychloroquine, one of the biggest studies so far at the University at Albany in New York.

But there's a mystery about that study. Hydroxychloroquine has been heavily politicized. President Trump is the cheerleader for it.

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We're having some very good things happening with it. It will be wonderful. It will be so beautiful. It will be a gift from heaven if it works.

COHEN: But doctors say it needs to be studied first. On April 12th, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo gave a date to expect preliminary results from the Albany study, which is being sponsored by the state.

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): I think we'll get actual reports on April 20th.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, we'll get some preliminary results back on April 20th.

COHEN: But April 20th came and no results. The next day, Cuomo was asked about it again after he visited the White House.

REPORTER: Do you have any indication of what the state results have been? You said that they were going to be sent to Washington yesterday.

CUOMO: I have no -- I do not know. I do not know.

COHEN: The researcher says he'll be releasing final results as early as the end of next week and the hopes of helping COVID patients as soon as possible. DAVID HOLTGRAVE, UNIVERSITY AT ALBANY, STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK: So we're hoping that by next week, we will have reached the final phase of this study.

I think this study is really important and it's important that we quickly get to the final phase as fast as we can.

COHEN: So far, the most recent studies have not looked good for hydroxychloroquine, the largest thus far at the Veterans Health Administration. 368 coronavirus patients, those who took hydroxychloroquine, had more than twice the death rate as those who did not.

In a French study of 181 patients, hydroxychloroquine didn't work and some patients taking it developed heart problems. Neither of those studies has been peer reviewed or published in a medical journal yet.

One small study also had 20 study subjects and showed the patients had a lower viral load after taking hydroxychloroquine. But that study's methods have been questioned and the journal that published it is reviewing it again.

For coronavirus patients and their families, more waiting to see which drug might make the difference between life and death.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COHEN: We're going to be staying on this, Poppy and Jim, until we learn the results of this large study out of the University at Albany. Poppy, Jim?

SCIUTTO: That's right, you've got to go with the date. Elizabeth Cohen, thanks very much.

Joining us now to talk about this, CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Dr. Arabia Mollette from Brookdale University Hospital Medical Center in New York.

[10:05:06]

Good morning to both of you.

Sanjay, if I could begin with you. I mean, this Northeastern study is fascinating. What would it mean on a couple fronts if this is accurate? One, would it mean far more of us have been exposed to this than we realize, but also, two, does it change our narrative as to where this came from, principally?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it definitely means the former point. There is probably a lot of people out there who have been exposed to this, that this was spreading within the community far earlier than we thought.

I think for most public health people who have been following this since the beginning, I don't think at any point they thought they were absolutely catching the first patients who had been actually contracting this infection. They thought they were representative of a tip of a larger iceberg, they just didn't know how large this iceberg is. And, frankly, we still don't know.

These numbers coming out of Northeastern are pretty staggering. They seem high. As you know, there were a couple studies that came out of California that suggested maybe there's 50 to 80 times more patients out there who have been infected than we realize. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

But, yes, this is -- we thought that the first patient was diagnosed January 21st. The first patient now, or at least what we think of may be the first patient, actually died of this February 6th. If you look at the lag time between the time someone is exposed, the time someone developed symptoms, hospitalization, it could be three or four weeks. So if a person died on February 6, that means it was already likely spreading in the community in early January. So I think that part we know for sure.

It still seems the origins of this still seem like they likely came from animals, it likely was something that originated in that area of China. But, you know, there is a humility, Jim, to your point. We're learning as we go along, and I think we have to continue that humility right now.

HARLOW: Dr. Mollette, just to remind our viewers how they first met you, we have some video, I think, when we first met you in this remarkable piece that our Miguel Marquez did inside your -- yes, it happens to the best of us -- inside your E.R. And this was March 29th. So, really, as we were peaking here, getting there in New York, and as you write beautifully in your daily news opinion piece this week, you serve some of the most underserved and underresourced people in New York City. Do you think you were seeing some of these cases much, much earlier than previously thought?

DR. ARABIA MOLLETTE, E.R. PHYSICIAN: I'm glad you asked that question. We just had a conversation, my staff and I, we had a conversation about this yesterday, and one of the things that many of us were saying amongst each other was that we noticed that the volume at the emergency department back in February started to increase, and we noticed that many people were coming in really, really sick.

And at first, we were thinking like, okay, is this the flu? Of course, we were swabbing people for the flu. I know I swabbed the same patient for the flu three or four times perhaps thinking in my mind, did I misswab the person or this was a false negative, and therefore, people -- we were admitting people but we couldn't figure out for the life of us why they were so sick.

And many them were coming in hypoxic or very high fevers, used to be a shortness of breath. But, again, we just didn't know at that time. And then many of my -- or some of my coworkers also fell ill, but no one had an idea of what was taking place or what happened. And so now, we've been having this conversation and we figured that perhaps it was due to the coronavirus.

HARLOW: Wow. SCIUTTO: Yes. Humility, as you say, Sanjay, right? We all need humility because so much information is coming in. I wonder that if you're surprised, when you look at some of these early antibody tests -- and, again, it's early, there's not a lot of data because it's not widely available. But when you see 2 or 3 percent of people that have those antibodies, does that surprise you then if we're learning that more were exposed? I mean, does that teach us anything about whether your body can produce something to protect itself against this?

GUPTA: Yes. No, I think this is very interesting. I had a good conversation with the people who are running these antibody studies using the MLB as a backdrop. They're testing the executives, players, people who work in the arenas, everybody, trying to get a diverse sort of look at this. And you are seeing a pretty significant number of people who have some antibodies. But there is caveats here. And I think these are important caveats, not to just throw cold water on it.

But first of all, there is a question about the tests themselves in terms of how good they are, how accurate they are, the blood spot test versus actually getting your blood drawn. There are only four tests that have been approved for emergency use authorization. There are some 90 tests out there.

I mean, this is confusing for people out there.

[10:10:01]

Everybody wants to get their hands on one of these tests right now, but you've got to be careful, because the last thing you want is to get an inaccurate result, a false positive, and think, hey, I'm good to go, I've got the antibodies, that may not be the case.

And the second point is exactly that. Once you have these antibodies, what you're really asking, I think a lot of people are, is do I have immunity and how long and how strong is that immunity? And right now, we still can't answer the question. And I think there is still value in getting these tests once they come out and are validated, but we have to make sure that we're asking the right questions and we're getting the right answers.

It may not tell you for certain right now that you are immune to this. So we still have to all practice these same behaviors for a while.

HARLOW: For sure, that's a great point.

Dr. Mollette, before we go, you are seeing a crisis on top of a crisis, right? And you write about that, the economic crisis for so many of the patients that you treat that may be getting sick, but also the fallout from not having their jobs or having to go work on the frontlines, whether it's in food or transportation, et cetera, and potentially getting sick. But you still say and plead with people to stay home.

That on top of what this is costing, I think Kaiser's estimate was upwards of $41 billion, the cost for the uninsured in this country with COVID-19. MOLLETTE: This is hard. This epidemic has revealed the ugliness of our healthcare system. It revealed the ugliness of our socioeconomic system, it also revealed the social inequalities as well especially against the communities that are underserved. I served and I worked -- I work and represent these communities, particularly the black and brown communities, or African-American and Latino communities.

And it's painful and disturbing to take care of people who are so worried about paying their bills and putting food on their table. And I oftentimes had to put myself in their shoes. As a matter of act, I've been in their shoes before, and many of my relatives as well.

And so even though that is the case, the numbers are increasing. Even though I think yesterday that Cuomo reported that we have 500 deaths, one death is enough. Two deaths are enough. And for me, it's very traumatizing.

And this whole experience since the end of February for us, because this is when the volume actually increased in the first week of February -- the first two weeks of February, it exploded. This had been a very traumatizing experience for many of us.

You don't understand how many times we take breaks and we cry. Yesterday, one of my nurses broke down in the lounge and just cried because we are -- we've lost someone, an employee that worked in our emergency department, one of our nurses had also lost her husband to the coronavirus, I lost a relative, as well a family friend, I lost a neighbor, I lost several coworkers. And I know I'm sounding shaky, but --

HARLOW: I'm so sorry.

MOLLETTE: I'm sorry.

HARLOW: I'm so sorry. No, it's -- we know when all of us, Jim and Sanjay and us, were all watching your piece with Miguel, we were just all so moved by the work you're doing and the message you're sending, and we didn't even know all the loss you've endured. So thank you.

MOLLETTE: Losing patients. And when they look into your eyes and they give that last breath, what makes you think I'm going to be okay after this, or any healthcare workers that are on frontline? Their eyes pierce your soul. And it's different. It hits very different.

So I'm really hoping that we find a treatment, a cure, a vaccination, and because after the social distancing measures are lifted, we're going to see an increase until we find a cure for this disease. I'm just asking for prayers for my healthcare workers and everybody that's been infected by this. So, sorry for getting a little emotional.

HARLOW: Don't be sorry.

SCIUTTO: Don't be sorry.

HARLOW: Yes, that we can give you is those prayers. We'll do that and thank you for what you do every single day, Dr. Arabia Mollette, and to, Sanjay, for what you do every day.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Well, more states are looking to reopen, this, despite warnings from health experts, Georgia reopening some businesses tomorrow. CNN has learned that President Trump and Vice President Pence called Georgia's governor, Brian Kemp Tuesday night to praise his decision to reopen, but the very next day the president in public criticized the move. So what happened?

Chief White House Correspondent Jim Acosta joins me now. Jim, a whiplash there, not the first time we've experienced it. What's the story behind it?

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. From talking to a source close to the task force, Jim, it sounds as though yesterday afternoon before the coronavirus task force briefing over at the White House, there were members of this task force who were anxious about what the president was going to say about the Georgia governor's decision to reopen businesses on Friday. I can tell you that during that meeting, according to the source, Dr. Fauci and others were raising the concern that reporters in the briefing would obviously ask them the scientist how they felt about it, and that they would disagree, they would be seen disagreeing with the president.

And so members of this task force went to Dr. Deborah Birx, who is the coordinator of the task force, and asked her to go to the president to try to convince him to change his mind. And, apparently, during that meeting, she helped change his mind. And to the relief of members of the task force during that press conference yesterday evening, the president said he disagreed with the Governor Kemp's decision.

Now, I'll tell you, during this task force meeting before the briefing, apparently, it got quite dramatic. Dr. Anthony Fauci said that he could not go along with the governor's decision down in Georgia to reopen businesses on Friday, and he made that very clear during the meeting. And so the prospect that was being set up is that had they gone out into that press conference, had Dr. Birx not changed the president's mind, they would be publicly disagreeing with the president.

Now, we know, Jim, we all watched that press briefing yesterday, they ended up disagreeing with the president on CDC Director Dr. Redfield's view that the coronavirus could have serious implications in the winter during the cold and flu season, and obviously they disagreed with the president publicly on that. But on the Georgia governor decision to reopen businesses on Friday, they at least felt like they were in line with the president on that, and they were relieved that he changed his mind.

But it is remarkable, Jim, that there was anxiety in this task force meeting yesterday before the -- that the president was going to come out and once again support the governor's decision as he was indicating privately, and that these task force scientists were going to be disagreeing with him. So they were relieved at least on that front they were able to change the president's mind.

SCIUTTO: Well, we'll see how long they stay on the same page. There's been back and forth on a number of issues like that. Jim Acosta, thanks very much, as always.

HARLOW: All right. Let's talk about Florida. Governor DeSantis expected to make an announcement tomorrow on recommendations to reopen parts of the state.

With me now is someone on the governor's task force, Miami-Dade County Mayor Carlos Jimenez. Mayor, it's so nice to have again. Thank you for being here.

Let's talk about Miami-Dade, where you have had the most deaths statewide from COVID. So you say right around the corner is when you are going to announce your recommendations for Miami-Dade, which, as I understand it, include opening up marinas, golf courses, parks. What tells you it's time to make that call?

MAYOR CARLOS JIMENEZ (R-MIAMI-DADE COUNTY, FL): Okay. Just around the corner, and what we have to do is make sure that we are prepared for the opening and have the resources for our parks and our marinas and golf courses to enforce the new rules. Because we're not opening -- when we say we're going to reopen, it doesn't mean we're going to reopen the old way.

And so an example, in parks, you won't be able to play basketball one- on-one or team sports. You will be able to play tennis, singles tennis but not doubles tennis. You have to jog in a certain direction. So there are a lot of differences in the way that the parks are going to be open.

HARLOW: You bring up jogging and that's important, you can only jog in a certain direction. But actually reading in detail into what you've laid out, you're allowing people to jog without a mask. If they're walking, they have to wear a mask but they can take it off when they jog. Take a look at these numbers just in the last three days in your county, sir. There have been over 1,230 new coronavirus cases. So why is now the time?

JIMENEZ: It's the time because, actually, the curve has actually been going down. It's actually flattening out. We feel that actually we've had the greatest number that was back on April the 6th, and so it's the time. And then what we're doing is doing it in the way that it's safe, and we're doing this in consultation with our medical experts, with infectious disease doctors who have been part of this process the whole way. The plan is laid out.

HARLOW: One of the doctors on your task force, sir, Dr. Aileen Marty, the Florida International University researcher who, again, is on your personal moving to a new normal task force, said she's concerned that, quote, too many members of the population continue to disregard the risk of the virus, and she said that she is discouraged by seeing things like a recent boat party, yet you're allowing the marinas to open, boats 37 feet or longer can have eight adults and then unlimited number children. Again, why is now the moment?

JIMENEZ: She is part of the task force and she was in concurrence with things we were doing. And she may be concerned, I agree, but she voiced during our calls, because we had over 100 people on there, and she's part of our task force saying, how can we do this in a safe manner? How can we reduce the incidence of infection? So, yes, she's part of the decision process.

And so she may be concerned, we're all concerned, but it's time to move on and do it in a safe manner. And this -- what we have been putting on -- what we have, our plan, is a safe way way to start to reopen Miami-Dade County.

HARLOW: How do you know it's safe if so many people that have raised concern for her are disregarding? I mean, take a look, right? You're not opening beaches yet, okay? And, look, I should commend you for being among the first in the state to shut down restaurants and non- essential businesses.

[10:25:06]

I'm just wondering on the backend of this -- take a look at this. This is a video out of Jacksonville. And what you see there is when they open up the beaches -- I think we can zoom in, but there's just a lot of evidence of not social distancing there. So --

JIMENEZ: Correct. And that's why before we did this, before I open up, the first thing we're doing right now is we're adding additional personnel to make sure that we enforce the rules. That's the key to the whole thing. You have to enforce the rules.

HARLOW: But what does that mean? Are you going to arrest people? Are you arresting them, are you summoning them?

JIMENEZ: No, we're going to be giving them -- we're going to -- if you don't abide by the rules, you'll be asked to leave the park, and if you get disruptive, we're going to get the police to take care of it. It's actually a second-degree misdemeanor here if you don't follow the rules. And that's what we're doing. We're going to make sure we have the people there to enforce the rules. And then the rules we have put forth are safe.

There's nothing -- we're never going to come up with something that gives you a zero probability or possibility that you're going to spread the virus. But what we want to do is make sure that you reduce the possibility of passing the virus.

HARLOW: I hope so. I'm just not sure that jogging without a mask in one direction totally does that.

But let me ask you one final question. Georgia's governor, Brian Kemp, you know, he's reopening a lot of state tomorrow, things like nail salons, barber shops, massage parlors, bowling alleys. You're not doing that. He's doing that. The president says he disagrees with that move now. Who is right, the president or the governor of Georgia on that front?

JIMENEZ: I think the president is absolutely right. There are things that we can't do, let's say even in parks. We're not opening up, say, Domino Park because you're touching the same pieces while multiple people are touching the same pieces, then you can transmit the disease.

Look, I'm a paramedic, okay? I think I know a little bit about what we're doing here. And I follow the advice of our medical experts, our infectious disease medical experts. They've been part of this process the whole way. And so there is never -- like I said, never a zero risk or anything, but we have -- the measures we're taking in place are there so that we reduce the incidence of the transmission of this disease which is what we have to do.

We also have to make sure that we always stay below the capacity of our health system to treat COVID-19 patients. And so far, in Miami- Dade County, we've been way below the capacity to treat our COVID-19 patients. And so we've seen the trend flatten out, we've seen it going down, and it's time for us to start to reopen in a safe way. And that's what we need to do.

HARLOW: We wish you luck in doing that for the health of everyone there. Again, over 1,200 cases there in just the last three days. Good luck and you're welcome back any time. Thanks, Mayor.

JIMENEZ: Thank you, ma'am. I appreciate it.

HARLOW: Jim.

SCIUTTO: We may remember that Michigan voters hit the polls earlier this month despite calls to delay the election due to the outbreak. Now, we are learning more about the impact it is having on voter's health. You'll want to hear this. It's coming up.

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[10:30:00]

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