Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Experts Shoot Down Trump's Suggestion of Exposing COVID-19 Victims to Sunlight Heat to Treat Virus; Some U.S. States Race to Develop Reopening Strategies Despite Warnings; Officials: Twenty Three Cases Now Linked to Wisconsin Primary Election; Some Georgia Businesses Won't Reopen Despite Governor's Plan; Texas Governor to Lay Out Reopening Plan Next Week; New York's Governor Says 1 in 7 State Residents Tested for Antibodies is Positive; Researchers in China Clone Antibodies from Recovered Patients. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired April 24, 2020 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:28]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Friday morning. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

This morning, a push to reopen. States across the country, some tentative, some more aggressive, giving the green light to some businesses while others are set to announce their strategies in the days ahead.

Today in Georgia, Governor Kemp forging ahead with his plan to let hair salons, barbershops and bowling alleys open. This despite warnings from medical experts and even from the president. But it's not just red states making these plans. Blue states set to ease restrictions. This even as the death toll nationally climbs.

But states are loosening up guidelines isn't all medical experts are worried about this morning.

HARLOW: That's exactly right. The president making dangerous suggestions for treatment forcing the maker of Lysol to warn people do not inject our product.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous -- whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn't been checked? But you're going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body. And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: It's a stunning statement from the leader of the free world, not based in fact or science. The bottom line, injecting disinfectant into your body could kill you and even the president's own task force says heat and sunlight are not treatments for COVID-19.

We'll get to that in a moment. Let's begin, though, with Martin Savidge and our Ed Lavandera. They both join us.

Marty, let me begin with you in Atlanta on reopening day for the state.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it started. It's off to a kind of hit or miss, depending on where you are. The shopping center, where we're standing in front of, there are a number of businesses that under the letter of the executive order could be open but right now they are not open. There's only one that's actually told us they will open. That's the hair salon. They're not open yet.

There is a lot of pushback that has come ever since the governor outlined his plan. And we've wondered about the businesses, those businesses, a lot of them entail hands on, so you wonder about that, the pandemic. But then on top of that, it's just the sheer what kind of message are you really sending?

Here is the mayor of Atlanta. She has been about the most critical, this is what she said recently.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR KEISHA LANCE BOTTOMS (D), ATLANTA, GEORGIA: In order for us to get through this pandemic and to get to the other side of this crisis, we have to socially distance. And in a normal world, we'd be able to look to our president and to the White House and receive sound guidance and advice. But instead we're now telling -- having to tell people not to ingest and inject your body with household cleaners.

The only thing that's helped us is that we have stayed apart from one another. And I'm simply asking people to continue to do that. I think as leaders, we have to make it easier for people to stay home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: And I'll just remind you again of what the list of services and businesses are that can reopen under the governor's plan. You've got hair salons, you've got nail salons, you've got the massage parlors. You've got the tattoo places. You can also go to the gym and if you like you can go bowling. Then on Monday, it's going to be restaurants will allow dining in and you can also go out and go see a movie. They're very strict regulations.

Let me show you a barbershop we found around the corner that was open. Nobody there wanted to talk to us. But the line started forming at 6:30 in the morning. The door is open at 7:00 a.m. and they were practicing social distancing. The barber didn't have on gloves, which he's supposed to have as part of the personal protection equipment. He was wearing a mask.

And final footnote, an hour and a half later, the Georgia State Patrol, three officers showed up at his parking lot and went in to inspect his business. The GSP are the ones who are tasked with making sure that everyone follows the health protocols that the governor demands. So they were showing up and checking. I asked if it was OK, they said, yes, and they left.

SCIUTTO: Well, it's good to hear they're keeping an eye.

Ed Lavandera, Oklahoma, another state making moves today. What have they decided to open first?

[09:05:02]

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in Oklahoma, those personal care businesses, hair salons, nail salons, that sort of thing, opening up. And the governor there in Oklahoma also talking about opening up other venues and businesses, restaurants, movie theaters, as long as strict social distancing guidelines are followed.

And here in this state of Texas, this is the first day of what the governor has described as retail to go. Essentially allowing retail stores across the state to open up for essentially curbside pickup. We're outside of Good Records, which is a funky east Dallas gym that has been in business 20 years. This is the owner, Chris Penn.

Chris, you're getting ready, you're changing kind of the signage on your storefront here, getting ready for today. What -- are you nervous about how this is all going to play out?

CHRIS PENN, GYM OWNER: I have a little trepidation on how things are going to work out. But I feel good. We're kind of embracing the rebranding and a new way to connect with customers. And it's just me. It's a one man operation, so I don't have my employees coming in and we're not interacting, so I feel comfortable safety wise for me and the people I'm serving because it's just me. So we're cutting -- we're being safe as possible.

LAVANDERA: How hard is the financial hit been in the last month?

PENN: Extremely hard. And it's something you can't plan for. And unexpected by all means, almost science fiction what's going on. But our landlord has been really cool, working with us. And we're going give it our shot and we're going to have fun with it. And hopefully we can make it out the other side.

LAVANDERA: All right, perfect, Chris, thank you so much.

So, Jim and Poppy, you kind of hear there that sense of apprehension. You know, a lot of store owners that we've talked with who are not only nervous about spreading the disease to customers, but they're also worried, you know, they have to go home at the end of the day and interacting with people in a much more widespread kind of way is something that they're nervous about -- Jim and Poppy.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Of course. SCIUTTO: Yes, it's not happening in some sort of deluge, you know,

flood here. It seems like it's baby steps here and there.

Martin Savidge, Ed Lavandera, thanks very much.

HARLOW: It is a very different story here in New York today, where studies shows nearly one in seven randomly selected people in New York have tested positive for antibodies against coronavirus.

Brynn Gingras is with us for more. So the question becomes what does that all mean, right, and what do those numbers actually tell us, the science behind immunity still not clear, right. If you have antibodies it doesn't mean you can't get this thing, but what is the governor saying?

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, that is still the big question, Poppy. And the governor even says he's taking that information with a grain of salt, but, listen, these numbers provide a big baseline for, according to the governor who addressed this really on CNN's global town hall. He says this coupling with the fact of hospitalization rates and then the number of other factors, this is what he's going to be continuing to look at as they reassess their reopening strategies all across the state in different region by region.

And so these numbers, they are tools for the state, these numbers, they're going to continue these testings with the antibodies, but like you said, the big question is immunity. Really how much immunity does, you know, people have once they have the virus. But those numbers are telling, right? You guys just said one in seven people in New York likely had the coronavirus.

Well, if you look at New York City, it's even more. One in five people likely had the virus which really, guys, jives with that Northeastern study that we were all talking about yesterday saying that there were probably a lot more cases in this area than originally thought before March 1st.

HARLOW: A lot more.

SCIUTTO: Yes. It raises the questions -- yes, more asymptomatic cases possibly.

Brynn Gingras, we know you're going to stay on top of it. Thanks very much.

Also new this morning, in a potential first step in developing a treatment for coronavirus, researchers in China say they have cloned antibodies from people who have recovered from COVID-19.

HARLOW: Yes. This is really interesting. What's not yet clear is if these antibodies could actually be used to prevent infection.

Elizabeth Cohen joins us with more.

Fascinating that they've been able to clone it. The question about how effective it will be and efficacy is what lingers now, right?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. That's the question. And let's take a step back about why these antibodies might work. We've heard about convalescent plasma, and that is, you take blood from someone who's recovered from coronavirus and you put components of that blood right into someone who currently has coronavirus.

The theory is that the antibodies from the person who fought it off will now go to the person who is currently infected and those will work. That may in fact work but the problem is scalability. One person only has so much blood. You can only get so much blood from that one person. So what's much more scalable is taking those antibodies and cloning them, and that's what it appears the Chinese researchers have done.

But that is actually not the hard part. There are various labs around the world that are working on this, that's not the tough part. The tough part as you said is to see if that actually works and, this is very important, if it's safe. It is known that using these kinds of cloned antibodies can actually make someone sick. So those are the things they need to figure out. So we're still months away from this working.

[09:10:02]

SCIUTTO: So other treatments, we already know hydroxychloroquine, early studies have shown no benefit. In fact some dangers to that. But another one, there was a lot of promise, was Remdesivir, but a study now raising questions about whether that's an effective treatment.

COHEN: Right, so there was a study that was -- study results that was posted on WHO, the World Health Organization Web site, that said that it didn't work and then the company that makes the drug saying, well, it was actually inconclusive, the study was too small. But the bottom line is, is that it doesn't look like it did very much, maybe because it was given to people too late.

But I have to remind you, Remdesivir was designed for Ebola, didn't work for Ebola, might not work for this either.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: I woke up to that news this morning, Elizabeth, and was pretty disappointed just to see because I think people had been having sort of higher hopes about Remdesivir. So we'll see. Thanks very, very much.

Still to come, widespread condemnation after President Trump dangerously suggests using light and disinfectants as possible treatments for coronavirus in humans.

SCIUTTO: Yes, a company had to put out a statement saying don't do that. Plus, more people who voted in the Wisconsin primary election are now testing positive for the virus for the virus. What that state is doing to combat the further spread. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:15:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Remarkable, alarming, disturbing, choose your word. This morning, widespread condemnation after President Trump makes frankly dangerous suggestions as to possible treatments for coronavirus. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A question that probably some of you are thinking of, if you're totally into that world, which I find to be very interesting. So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous, whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light, and I think you said that hasn't been checked, but you're going to test it.

And then I said supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way, and I think you said you're going to test that too. Sounds interesting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we get to the right books, we could --

TRUMP: Right, and then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that. So that, you're going to have to use medical doctors with -- but it sounds interesting to me, so we'll see. But the whole concept of the light and the way it kills it in one minute, that's pretty powerful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, after the presentation we just saw about the heat and the humidity, is it dangerous for you to make people think they would be safe by going outside in the heat considering that so many people are dying in Florida, considering that this virus has had an outbreak in Singapore, places that are hot and not humid --

TRUMP: Yes, here we go. The new headline is Trump asks people to go outside, that's dangerous, here we go. Same old group. Are you ready? I hope people enjoy the sun, and if it has an impact, that's great. I'm just hearing this, not really for the first time, I mean, there's been a rumor that, you know, very nice rumor that you go outside in the sun, you have heat and it does have an effect on other viruses.

But now we get it from one of the great laboratories of the world, I have to say, covers a lot more territory than just this. This is probably an easy thing relatively speaking for you. I would like you to speak to the medical doctors to see if there is any way that you can apply light and heat to cure. You know, that if you could, and maybe you can, maybe you can't.

Again, I say maybe you can, maybe you can't. I'm not a doctor. But I'm like a person that has a good, you know what? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But sir, you are the president --

TRUMP: Deborah, have you ever heard of that?

DEBORAH BIRX, CORONAVIRUS RESPONSE COORDINATOR: Yes --

TRUMP: The heat and the light relative to certain viruses, yes, but relative to this virus?

BIRX: Not as a treatment. I mean, certainly fever --

TRUMP: Yes --

BIRX: Is a good thing when you have a fever, it helps your body respond. But not as -- I've not seen heat or light as --

TRUMP: I think it's a great thing to look at, I mean, you know, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Respectfully sir, you're the president and people tuning into these briefings they want to get information and guidance and want to know what to do --

TRUMP: Hey --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're not looking for rumor --

TRUMP: Phil, I'm the president and you're fake news. And you know what I'll say to you, I'll say it very nicely, I know you well, I know you well, because I know the guy, I see what he writes, he's a total faker, so are you ready? Are you ready? Are you ready? It's just a suggestion from a brilliant lab by a very smart, perhaps brilliant man.

He's talking about sun, he's talking about heat, and you see the numbers. So that's it. That's all I have. I'm just here to present talent. I'm here to present ideas because we want ideas to get rid of this thing. And if heat is good and if sunlight is good, that's a great thing as far as I'm concerned.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Yes, Dr. Birx, of course, said there very clearly, not as a treatment. Well, the company that makes Lysol released a statement this morning saying, quote, "we must be clear that under no circumstance should our disinfectant products be administered into the human body through injection, ingestion or any other route."

The Washington State Emergency Management Department also felt the need to respond, tweeting, quote, "please don't eat tide pods or inject yourself with any kind of disinfectant. Just don't make a bad situation worse." These are not fake tweets or statements. They are real. Let's bring in Dr. Mark McClellan; the director of the Health Policy Center at Duke University and a former FDA Commissioner, he also served in the George W. Bush administration as a member of the president's Council of Economic Advisors. Dr, McClellan, good to have you on today. Just in the simplest terms,

how dangerous is it to have a sitting president raise medical treatments that have no basis, and in fact might be dangerous?

[09:20:00]

MARK MCCLELLAN, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: Yes, disinfection is not a treatment for people with the coronavirus. Disinfection is very effective, which was the point of the study's release yesterday -- very effective in freeing surfaces of the virus and see a very important part of our steps to reopening frequent disinfection of any surfaces in public.

But as Dr. Birx said yesterday, that's very different than treatment for people who have COVID-19. There are a lot of treatments in development, but not disinfection.

SCIUTTO: This is of course not the first time the president has pushed an unproven treatment. I mean, in this case, it's not just an unproven treatment, it is one that is demonstrably dangerous, injecting a disinfectant. But of course, he pushed hydroxychloroquine before there was any proof that it had an effect. Is this something that health experts need to stand up and say, because Dr. Birx had to stand up and say, no, Mr. President, this is not --

MCCLELLAN: Every doctor --

SCIUTTO: Safe for the American people.

MCCLELLAN: And Jim, Dr. Birx, I think was very clear yesterday about the distinction between the treatments that people are working on to hopefully help us get better outcomes for COVID-19 as soon as possible. We don't have any effective treatments now. There are a lot of good ideas being researched, very promising ideas --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MCCLELLAN: And that's different from the importance of disinfection of surfaces. And that's something else that Americans do need to remember. So, this is, you know, don't use Lysol internally or anything like that. But we do need to pay a lot of attention to disinfection of surfaces and frequent cleaning if we move forward with reopening the country.

SCIUTTO: Yes, and of course, different to say disinfect your hands, you know, as opposed to --

MCCLELLAN: Exactly --

SCIUTTO: Injecting it into your body --

MCCLELLAN: A hand sanitizer, exactly --

SCIUTTO: Yes, don't drink the stuff. Let's talk about reopening now because it's interesting that, of course, there were a number of Republican-led states that have been most aggressive in opening up, Georgia being an example. But we're also seeing Democratic-led states taking more tentative steps. What steps forward towards reopening in California and Minnesota, a discussion of a possible announcement today from Michigan. As you watch states begin to do this, who is doing it right in your view?

MCCLELLAN: Well, Jim, we've done several reports on this at Duke and with some of our colleagues like Scott Gottlieb and other former FDA commissioner. And in those reports, we highlight the importance of doing this incrementally. So, we are not reopening back to what the situation was before. States should take gradual steps, and that includes a lot of distancing in businesses, a lot of disinfection of surfaces, and the things that people would touch as we've talked about before.

And also increased testing and a lot of attention across the public to symptoms. If you have symptoms, you need to stay home. If workers have --

SCIUTTO: Yes --

MCCLELLAN: Symptoms, they need to stay home. And there also needs to be testing because many times people can spread the virus without showing any symptoms at all.

SCIUTTO: On the testing question, you see that's the thing because every elected official I've talked to, and every health expert like yourself has said, to open safely, you need broad-based testing. But really, there's not a single state in the union that's able to do that today, that has the capacity to do that today. You look at a state like New York, when they have done some testing, it seems to show that the prevalence of this is greater than we imagined.

So how can -- how can these states be doing it safely, even if gradually if they don't really know how many people are infected today?

MCCLELLAN: I think, Jim, your point about the testing that New York has done, that's testing for whether people were previously exposed to COVID-19, not for whether they have the infection now. And it's true that there has probably been substantially more exposure to the virus across the country than we've been able to measure. That is why increased testing for whether or not people have the virus right now and are infectious is important as a part of this reopening.

And the testing capacity in the United States is going up, and our recommendations, we suggested testing on the order of 2 million, 3 million tests per week is what we'd like to get to with the level of activity of the virus in the country right now, many states are headed significantly in that direction. And I think that's a key part of opening up. And until we get more testing in place, we need to be extra cautious and very specialized about the reopening.

SCIUTTO: We'll be watching the rates of testing, Mark McClellan, good to have you on this morning.

MCCLELLAN: Good to be with you. POPPY HARLOW, CO-ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: Nearly two dozen people who voted

in person in Wisconsin earlier this month are now infected with coronavirus. The lieutenant governor of the state is with us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:25:00]

HARLOW: There are now more cases that are linked to the Wisconsin primary election held earlier this month. Health officials say at least 23 people who voted in person or worked at the polls have tested positive for coronavirus. Wisconsin was the only state to hold in person voting this month after Republican lawmakers in the state's Supreme Court blocked efforts to hold mail-in voting or postpone the election there altogether until June.

SCIUTTO: Today, public libraries, golf courses and arts and craft stores will be allowed to reopen across the state. We're joined now by the Lieutenant Governor of Wisconsin Mandela Barnes. Lieutenant Governor, we appreciate you taking the time this morning.

MANDELA BARNES, LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR OF WISCONSIN: Hey, good morning, Jim and Poppy, thanks so much for having me.

SCIUTTO: So 23 people who went out to exercise their right to vote as you know, there was an attempt by the governor, your colleague, to delay this, to allow more mail-in voting, absentee ballots.

END