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Misinformation From White House on Ingesting Disinfectants; Interview with Texas Record Store Owner; Interview with Hugh Acheson. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired April 24, 2020 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:17]

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I'm Anderson Cooper with CNN's special coverage of the coronavirus pandemic. And on a day that we cross another grim milestone in this crisis -- more than 50,000 deaths in this country -- the president is flat-out lying about the dangerous suggestion he made just yesterday during his briefing, on using disinfectant as a treatment against the coronavirus -- internal use of disinfectant, injecting it.

Here was the president a short time ago today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- clarify your comments about injections of disinfectant --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, I was asking a question sarcastically to reporters like you, just to see what would happen. Now, disinfectant, where doing this, maybe on the hands, would work.

And I was asking the question of the gentleman who was there, yesterday, Bill, because when they say that something will last three or four hours or six hours, but if the sun is out or if they use disinfectant, it goes away in less than a minute. Did you hear about this yesterday?

But I was asking a sarcastic -- and a very sarcastic question -- to the reporters in the room about disinfectant on the inside. But it does kill it, and it would kill it on the hands, and that would make things much better. That was done in the form of a sarcastic question to the reporters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: He was not asking a sarcastic question, number one, just flat-out he wasn't. Number two, he was not addressing reporters, he was talking to some of the nation's top scientists and folks from the Department of Homeland Security. Now, we know this because it's on tape. And you're going to hear it

for yourself, what he said not even 24 hours ago, with his Task Force coordinator Dr. Birx and Bill Bryan from DHS off to his side, who he was talking to. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Supposing we hit the body with a tremendous -- whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light. And I think you said that hasn't been checked, but you're going to test it. And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that, too? Sounds interesting.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Right. And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or -- or almost a cleaning? Because you see, it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it'd be interesting to check that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: The voice you heard off to the side was Bill Bryan, a scientist from the -- from DHS. You saw Dr. Birx's reaction which was just pretending it all wasn't happening

CNN's Kaitlan Collins at the White House and our chief political correspondent Dana Bash is also with us. Kaitlan, we saw the tape. Clearly, the president wasn't talking to reporters, he was asking his medical experts and it wasn't anything that was a sarcastic question.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and he also said that unprompted. I had been in the room, there weren't any questions about that yet at that point, and the president was musing about those findings that the DHS official had laid out for us, and that's when he made those comments.

And he also said, quote, "I would like you to speak to the medical doctors to see if there's any way that you can apply light and heat to cure." He noted he was not a doctor, and essentially was asking them to look into it. So when he says he was just being sarcastic, responding to what he says are hostile questions from the media, that's -- it's just not the case. The president was actually musing about this.

And we should note that the White House, after there was a lot of criticism from doctors -- and Lysol even had to put out a statement, saying, Do not do this at home -- the White House put out a statement this morning, saying that the media was taking the president out of context. But they did not note that the president was being sarcastic in that statement.

COOPER: Right. That's -- I mean, and -- and you know, Dana, we've seen this time and time again. The president says something, the White House lies about what happened, saying, oh, it's the media taking it out of context, blah, blah, blah, you know, reporters, media. And then the president follows up by lying about it as well, but lying in a different way than the White House just lied about it, because they haven't coordinated their lies.

I mean, we all saw the discomfort, Dana, on Dr. Birx's face --

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes.

COOPER: -- when he made that initial suggestion. And she ended up -- we didn't show it, she ended up saying, well, not as a treatment, no. And then later on, she said, while looking at Bill Bryan from DHS, who was off-camera, she said, Well, I don't really, you know, know anything about that as -- you know, as a treatment.

The White House later had to correct their official transcript of the briefing because it initially said that Dr. Birx seemed to be confirming it as a treatment.

TEXT: The President: Deborah, have you ever heard of that? The heat and the light, relative to certain viruses yes, but relative to this virus? Dr. Birx: That is a treatment. I mean, certainly fever --

[14:05:04]

COOPER: Clearly, she got in there and said, originally, that's what it said, it said, "That is a treatment. I mean, certainly fever." She didn't say that, they corrected to, "Not as a treatment."

TEXT: The President: Deborah, have you ever heard of that? The heat and the light, relative to certain viruses yes, but relative to this virus? Dr. Birx: Not as a treatment. I mean, certainly fever --

COOPER: So clearly, Dr. Birx probably got in there and said, look, I don't want this on the record, saying I said it as a treatment. It's not as a treatment, which is what in fact she said.

What's happening -- I mean, what do you -- what do you make of this, Dana?

BASH: That -- it's the pattern we have seen so many times, as you just laid out so well, which unfortunately, at this point, we need a road map for except that we've been down it so many times, it's, you know, very familiar terrain. And that is, the president just saying something that is off the wall and the White House having to clean it up, and he backtracks.

The difference, of course, to state the obvious, is that this is the president of the United States during a global pandemic.

COOPER: Yes.

BASH: And it's not just him musing about things that don't matter. It could not be a situation that matters more.

And it's also a pattern within this pandemic. I mean, at least with hydroxychloroquine, that's an actual drug, it's not bleach that could actually kill you if you inject. But even that, he was peddling that notion of it being a cure-all, and now his own government has studies -- maybe they're not, you know, extensive studies, but enough studies -- to show that it doesn't actually help as much with coronavirus, and in fact it has more side effects and more downsides than upsides.

And so that is really the danger here. You know, are there people out there who will listen to the president and actually take it seriously? Possibly. I mean, you would hope not.

But the fact that we're even having this conversation about the president saying something as wacky as he did, and having to worry and having, as Kaitlan said, a company like Lysol having to put out a statement? What is happening? I mean --

COOPER: Yes.

BASH: -- that's all I keep thinking, what is happening.

COOPER: Yes. I mean, it would be -- you know, the president, one of his go-to things, lines is often, you know, well, you know, everybody was laughing at us overseas, they're not laughing at us anymore. You know what? I mean, I guess they're not laughing because they're also in the midst of a global pandemic and people are dying, so it's probably not funny to them either.

But it is just pathetic and sad, I mean, that this is what -- and what's so strange to me is, it just -- again, it starts to feel normal and you just think, oh, yes, that's just what he says, he just does that stuff. But, I mean, this is just one of those things, it is -- again, it's one of those times you should just kind of plant a flag and point out, this is not normal. It is not responsible, it is dangerous, it's not normal and it's just kind of pathetic.

BASH: Yes. I mean, it is very easy to just brush off things like this that the president says, because we've had to do it for -- you know, in various ways at various times, to not give it more oxygen than it deserves. This is one that does deserve it because, again, he sees these press conferences as a very important platform for him and for leading the country in this pandemic.

Well, you can't have it both ways. You can't give facts and figures and be a leader and have your medical professionals there, and then just muse about things that are really, really dangerous, even to say out loud.

COOPER: Yes.

BASH: And he wasn't being sarcastic, you played the tape. That's just not true.

COOPER: Yes. Dana Bash, appreciate it. Thank you.

Dr. Jennifer Lee is a clinical associate professor of emergency medicine at George Washington University, also CNN medical analyst. And Dr. Gavin Macgregor-Skinner is an infectious disease expert and epidemiologist. Both of you, the president now says -- welcome, thanks for being with me.

The president says he's being sarcastic, which is obviously just a lie, demonstrably false. Lysol, you know, issued a statement, saying, do not use our products internally.

When each of you heard what was said, I mean, did it -- I'm wondering just what went through your minds, I mean, as medical professionals? Yes.

JENNIFER LEE, CLINICAL ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF EMERGENCY MEDICINE, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: So, Anderson --

COOPER: Yes, go ahead.

LEE: -- I couldn't -- I was -- I had trouble believing what I was hearing. I mean, it just doesn't make sense at all. We all know that the chemicals in these disinfectants, like bleach, are poisons. And under no circumstances should they be ingested or inhaled by anyone.

And, you know, it's ironic because we're actually seeing, in the last few months, that calls to poison centers are up 20 percent over where they were last year around this time, for accidental ingestions and exposures to disinfectants and cleaners, many of those by children.

[14:10:06]

But it also happens that there are people with psychiatric illness who take this -- these poisons intentionally. And I just got worried right away, that by the president talking about this, by the conversation around it, are there going to be more intentional overdoses and ingestions of these poisons.

COOPER: Yes. I mean, and it's an understandable concern, the president's -- you know, usually a president's words have weight and gravitas and people pay attention to them and this is obviously a case where you don't want anybody to pay attention to it.

Dr. Macgregor-Skinner, the president also mentioned UV light and heat as possible treatments and somehow using UV light and heat internally. Again, that -- you know, I don't know if -- they're obviously -- it's probably less deadly than bleach and disinfectants. But I mean, there's a potential for, you know, if somebody's going to think they can do that at home and jury-rig something and burning themselves.

GAVIN MACGREGOR-SKINNER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT AND EPIDEMIOLOGIST: The important point here is, Anderson, is that as a medical professional, we're spending too much time on defense, defending the myths, the rumors, but also the things that people with influence are saying within communities.

And we've got to flip that paradigm, focus on the evidence-based medicine of what we practice every day, focus on what we know and what we don't know, and ensure that, as we're starting to move towards a pathway of opening up America, I'm not (ph) spending my time throughout the day defending what we know is dangerous, is unsafe and doesn't work, based on evidence, but focus on what we can do. And that's -- we've got to do that better.

COOPER: Yes. And Dr. Macgregor-Skinner, where do you see -- you know, where we are in this? I mean, what are your -- what is your greatest concern in terms of helping us move forward?

MACGREGOR-SKINNER: Right now, we're seeing at the neighborhood level -- and again, this -- we have to be more consistent in our projects (ph), but we're seeing neighbors helping neighbors, but we're seeing communities actually start to map where the vulnerable populations are, where there's cases, where there's other high-risk people.

Within businesses -- and I'm helping lots of businesses at the moment get prepared to open up -- it's what does that look like, what is the picture of when we open that business. And as we define that.

And I'm training people within so many industries -- hotels, restaurants and other services -- where they're now going to be protecting themselves, they're going to explain to the clients, the people that come in, that this is what we're going to look like. We're going to have personal protective equipment on, we're going to be doing more cleaning and disinfection, and we're doing it to protect you and ourselves.

COOPER: Yes. A lot of advice is going to be needed, moving forward, for a lot of corporations. Dr. Gavin Macgregor-Skinner, Dr. Jennifer Lee, appreciate your expertise.

The open signs are back on Tuesday for some businesses across the state of Georgia, but not everyone is convinced the governor made the right call. We'll discuss with restaurant owners -- a restaurant owner who says he will not be opening his restaurants. They're going to -- Georgia's going to allow restaurants to open on Monday.

[14:13:13]

Plus, doctors and nurses at a U.K. hospital think a second wave of cases could be around the corner. Are they ready? We'll take you inside an intensive care unit.

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COOPER: In Texas, some retail stores are opening back up today but it won't be business as usual. Stores are offering curbside pickup, which means people can return to shopping but not in stores. It's part of Texas Governor Greg Abbott's plan to start slowly reopening the state by getting people back to work.

Ed Lavandera is in Dallas for us. So, Ed, retailers, employees all over the country have taken some of the biggest hits, obviously, during the pandemic. What are the precautions stores in Texas are taking to make sure that everybody can be safe?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the rule -- this is essentially working under the premise of retail-to-go. So that (ph) retail stores can open up, but can be curbside pick-up only, customers can't come inside stores. We're outside of Good Records record store, a vinyl shop here, a funky

little gem in East Dallas. And this is part of a storefront of areas that have been opened up. We have the owner of this store, Chris Penn, who has been here and he's started doing this. You can see how he is greeting his customers, who are pulling up here. He has gloves, the face mask on.

Chris, do you welcome this opening or are you nervous that it could cause more harm than good?

CHRIS PENN, OWNER, GOOD RECORDS: Well, I'm approaching it with trepidation, but we're being extremely vigilant and cautious. And it's just me, it's a one-man show. Not having any of my employees show up yet, and putting it in the backseat or the trunk, and we're going to get boxes where we put the stuff outside and we go back in, and we won't have any contact with the customer at all.

LAVANDERA: And you told me that if you're allowed to reopen and let customers in, you might actually even consider staying closed until you feel comfortable. You don't want to get your family sick when you go home --

PENN: Precisely. We've got to -- the priority number one needs to be people's lives. I mean, music is a therapeutic thing, and I'm happy to sell records. It gives me something to do, keeps me sane. But we've got to make sure we're doing this the right way, and hopefully everybody listens to the scientists.

LAVANDERA: And, look, you told me opening up a vinyl store in the digital age is not the highway to getting rich, so you've gone through some financial troubles here in the last month or so. You also had problems getting the financial aid and the stimulus package money.

PENN: Oh, yes, we didn't get accepted yet. Let's hope it happens, and you know, it's -- you open a record store, you're not going to be taking vacations in the Bahamas, it's a labor of love.

[14:20:04]

We're on our third location, we've been doing it 20 years. And we've been through two bouts of construction. DART (ph) Rail (ph) had us move, and this is the major hurdle we've had. And we'll see what happens, we'll see where we end up when this is all done.

LAVANDERA: All right, Chris. Well, good luck to you.

And there have been customers here, Anderson, as we've seen over the course of the last few hours, who have been coming up and Chris comes out, delivers the packages. And that is the kind of thing that we're seeing across the state.

And as you mentioned -- and it's important to kind of point out -- even business owners, even small business owners like Chris, apprehensive about where all of this is going and what it could mean here in the coming weeks -- Anderson.

COOPER: Picked a vinyl store, too, that was cool.

At least two counties in Florida have announced plans to reopen their beaches as of this morning. Beaches in Bay County, which includes the popular Panama City Beach, are back open for recreational use only. Strict limitations, social distancing guidelines have to be followed.

In Sarasota County, public beaches will reopen on Monday. No coolers, tents , umbrellas or chairs will be allowed, and congregating will be prohibited. Our Rosa Flores is in Miami.

So this comes after the city of Jacksonville opened its beaches last week, sparking a lot of criticism because there was clearly some issues with social distancing there. As beaches reopen, what more can you tell us about how safety is being enforced?

ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, enforcement is one of the big concerns, Anderson. I've spent most of this week listening to task force meetings, press conferences, both at the state level and at the local level. We spent hours doing this.

And I can tell you that the Jacksonville Beach mayor continues to defend his position, his decision to reopen beaches there. And of course, as you said, Bay and Sarasota Counties are following suit.

But we're seeing a different tone in the local leaders where I'm at, in the southeast part of the state, because this is the epicenter of the COVID-19 crisis here in Florida, in the counties of Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach. This is where we're seeing about 60 percent of the more than 30,000 cases in this state, about 60 percent of the more than 1,000 deaths.

And so we're seeing a difference in tone in these leaders. For example, Miami-Dade Mayor Carlos Gimenez was talking about reopening parks starting next week, but he mentioned specifically that until he has the enforcement resources, he's not going to do it. He also mentioned beaches are out of the question until they're ready, until they see and figure out how parks have reopened and if that works.

The mayor of Broward County mentioned something very interesting during one of the state task force meetings. He asked about widespread antibody testing, and how important it's going to be for public confidence in the government and in the reopening strategies, for there to be a, quote, "overcoming of the psychology of fear." He mentioned that people are scared for the state to reopen, and for Broward County to reopen, again because this is the epicenter of the COVID-19 crisis.

So, Anderson, it's going to be fascinating to see, once the state task force delivers its recommendations to Governor Ron DeSantis today, which is -- we're expecting to happen today, we're hoping to hear more news about that.

But will the governor actually listen to these leaders that we've been listening to during press conferences and these task force meetings, about their concerns, about enforcement, about proper testing? We're just going to have to see if Governor Ron DeSantis actually listens to that feedback -- Anderson.

COOPER: Rosa Flores. Rosa, I appreciate it. Thank you.

The Georgia governor's decision to partially reopen today has been criticized by several mayors in the state. Still, places like hair salons, gyms and bowling alleys are allowed to welcome customers. But not all that can -- not all of them have decided to do so.

One of those who has decided not to open is my next guest. Hugh Acheson is a chef and partner at several Georgia restaurants. Hugh, thanks for being with us. You wrote a piece in "The Washington Post," saying you won't let your employees become what you said were "sacrificial lambs." What you -- talk about the decision to stay closed, because it's got to be tough.

HUGH ACHESON, CHEF AND PARTNER AT FIVE AND TEN, THE NATIONAL, EMPIRE STATE SOUTH: It is tough. I mean, you know, we are not an economically rich part of the GDP, but we work hard every day. And I just think that right now, it's really difficult to get our workers to go back to work safely.

And these are a lot of economically unempowered people, and this is an echelon of society which they work really hard, but they just don't have the voice that's loud enough to say, you're putting me in harm's way. So I'm standing up-front for them to make sure that we're not, at least in my restaurants, and hopefully having an impact on others as well.

COOPER: Restaurants are on the governor's list of phase two reopenings, slated for Monday. I mean, as an employer, did you consult with your workers about how they're going and whether they would feel safe to return? And to you, what need to happen in order to be able to open up a restaurant?

[14:25:02]

ACHESON: You know, I did consult a lot of my staff, and we talked about it. And we figured out that the best thing to do right now was to come up with a really good plan. And I don't think the state government hasn't really given us the step-by-steps on really proper management of this situation.

I think every restaurant owner has a decision to make, and they manifest (ph) to build that proves and assures to their customers, their employees, their families and themselves that they're creating a really safe situation. That means sanitary checks, that means delivery that's contactless. It just means spacing out restaurants properly.

And we got some edicts from the government on how to do that, but there's a lot of clarity and wisdom that still needs to be put behind it.

COOPER: Yes. I mean, do you envision a time when people will have, you know, temperature checks when they come into restaurants? Because that's become commonplace in some parts of Asia, where you know, they've been battling this before we were. ACHESON: Yes. I think that the American mindset overall is a little

bit wary of that type of intrusion on them. But I hope we get there. And we have to understand that restaurants are private businesses, so we can demand that those things happen if we need to.

I don't want it to get to that. I think we can get to a safer possibility in the next few weeks, and have much more really impactful plans on how we really make sure that the public is safe and that my employees and myself are safe.

COOPER: And I understand that in the last couple weeks, backed by World Central Kitchen, which is Jose Andres' organization, and Blank Family Foundation, that you've been serving means to first responders and communities in need in Georgia?

ACHESON: We have been, Anderson. You know, out of Empire State South and Atlanta, my restaurant in midtown, also out of Five and Ten in Athens, we're serving up to 3,000 meals each week from each restaurant, so six to 7,000 meals total --

COOPER: Wow.

ACHESON: -- and that's going to ministries and homeless outreach and first responders in hospitals and ambulatory services, housing projects, Latinx community, all the people in this situation who are sometimes being overlooked.

Look, we've admitted a lot of people to hospitals because of COVID-19 in Georgia, we've also admitted a lot of people for malnutrition and starvation. And so we've got a job to do, and my job is to nourish my community.

COOPER: Hugh Acheson, I appreciate what you're doing. That's awesome, thank you so much.

ACHESON: Thanks, Anderson.

COOPER: As the country surpasses 50,000 dead from the coronavirus, the president is just flat-out lying about his suggestion to use disinfectant internally as a treatment. He was claiming he was being sarcastic, claiming he was talking to reporters -- he wasn't -- I'll speak to an expert on the virus' spread, next.

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