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California Governor Outlines Phased Reopening Plan; Fauci Discusses Study Of Remdesivir In Coronavirus Treatment. Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired April 29, 2020 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:30:00]
JARED KUSHNER, SENIOR ADVISER TO PRES. TRUMP: We've been able to so far exceed those goals for the month of April. Somebody asked me why it took so long. I actually said you should look at how did we do this so quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: But governors and mayors and public health officials tell us every day something very different. Yes, progress in some areas, they say, but also still supply shortages and confusion over who is responsible for what.
CNN senior investigative correspondent, Drew Griffin is with me now. Drew was spending a lot of time on testing. Drew, three main test experts focusing most of the attention on right now, what are they?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I'll take them in reverse order of their relevance right now. The antigen test, which is what Dr. Birx is hoping for.
This would be a very easy way to test for the virus on millions and millions of people at a time. It looks for a protein marker in your blood. The problem is this test does not exist yet. Look for that in the second wave, which could be a very big play, a big role in that second wave of virus that we're all expecting.
The antibody tests out there, they are widely disseminated and being used. The problem there is so many of them are questionable in their validity. A lot of people wondering whether or not the FDA has allowed just too many unregulated tests of those on the market, those actually look for whether or not you've had the infection and recovered and perhaps have the antibody that could protect you or give you some immunity, though that is not scientifically proven.
The big problem remains, John, with the actual COVID-19 tests, the PCR test, which is the nose swab, the saliva test, that tells you if you have an active infection. That is where the supply problems are so damning because it's completely uneven across the country as to who has the materials to actually conduct those tests.
Big labs, they seem to have all of the supplies they need, but the hospitals, the labs, the state labs, the smaller labs, the clinics where people actually are coming in sick. Just take a listen to what these people are telling us about where they're getting the supplies from.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY BOOSALIS, PRESIDENT & CEO, PREMIER HEALTH HOSPITAL SYSTEM: We kept running into anecdotal information from vendors that said they had a reagent, but they couldn't sell it to us.
SUSAN BUTLER-WU, USC KECK SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Not unusual for us to place and order and to be told that the order is going to be canceled and it can't be filled or that we only get 10 percent of what we order.
CARMEN L. WILEY, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR CLINICAL CHEMISTRY: We feel there's a disconnect between the theoretical capacity and what we're actually able to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: The disconnect is that a lot of these labs just can't get what they need at the time they need it, John. Dr. Fauci, did recognize this yesterday. He said we need to connect the dots, but we'd been waiting for these dots to be connected. I mean, I've been reporting on this very issue for more than a month now still not fixed, John.
KING: Every single day, your reporting, when you talk to these people, whether it's a mayor, a governor, public health professional, a lab person, and yet, from the White House lawn, the President's son-in-law says, all is good.
Drew, because of all the questions about this, the Congressional Subcommittee now demanding action from four separate makers of those antibody tests and the FDA, what's the issue here?
GRIFFIN: The issue is whether or not these antibody tests work or not. They have a failure rate that is unacceptable in some instances, whether it be false positive or false negative. The overall issue, John, is because the FDA relaxed the rules so much. The FDA didn't test the tests.
So what the Committee is asking for is, number one, these, as they would call it, worst of the worst tests be taken off the market. And number two, the FDA to dial back the entire marketplace for these antibody tests until they can actually verify that these tests being sold on the open market actually work and are telling people correctly that they either had or did not have the coronavirus.
KING: One gets the need for speed, but one would hope that we at least knew that they work first, a very important questions. Drew Griffin, appreciate the consistent reporting on this testing issue. It is the critical issue before us right now. Drew, thank you very much.
Georgia went first, now other states starting to follow a suit and start to reopen their economies. Every state, you see highlighted in red here, is partially reopening, either this week or next week.
Arkansas, for example, opening restaurants today, gyms tomorrow, salons, the next churches, mosques, and temples next week. As you can see, California not reopening yet, but the governor is laying out a roadmap to begin the long process.
CNN's Stephanie Elam is live for us in Los Angeles right now. It's a four part plan for reopening. What is life going to look like? What is the change going to come for Californians, Stephanie?
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, it may look a bit like the 70s here for a while, because haircuts are not until phase three. And he says that that is months away. But to take a look at this four phases, he says we're in the first phase right now, which is making sure that the workforce who has essential jobs at their workplaces are as safe as possible with the PPE and the cleaning procedures.
[12:35:00]
He says this is the time, though, that businesses need to start preparing for phase two, which he says is just weeks away. And that's where we can see some of the daycares opening up, some school programs coming back, some nonessential jobs like manufacturing coming back online, maybe some curbside retail businesses as well.
And then months away, not weeks away, are phase three, which is personal care like gyms and salons. And then after that, phase four, and that is when they're saying basically there needs to be herd immunity or some sort of vaccination for the population, for us to see those large scale sporting events, concerts and also conventions.
So that means seeing sports in person is probably not going to happen for a very long time. He was asked, the governor was asked today on "The Today Show" about whether or not he thinks how California is doing. Take a listen to his response on that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel in your gut that the worst is behind you in California?
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): In my gut, I do with this caveat only if we take seriously these next phases. If people just assume, like they did down in Newport Beach over the weekend, that the virus is going to take the weekend off or maybe go on summer vacation, then we're in real trouble with the potential second wave that erases all the progress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ELAM: And this, all of this plan, he said, is based on the data, which is based on Californians behavior. And he said right now we are starting to see a stabilization in the number of cases, new cases, as well as the number of deaths. But it's not going downward, which is what everyone wants to see. And so, therefore, all of this can change. I was in Newport Beach yesterday. A lot of people were out, the City Council there, though, John, has voted to keep the beaches open, but treat it more like they do 4th of July with that big rush of people and have more policing out there.
But all of this, he says, can change. And they have worked into their plan of phase to bring back, if they need to, some of these restrictions to keep the virus from spreading, John.
KLING: It will be the biggest experiment of all when it begins to kick in out in California. Stephanie Elam, thank you so much.
Los Angeles, meanwhile, has just reached a sad point, surpassing its 1,000 death. The mayor says 59 people died on Tuesday. That's a six percent increase from the day before.
Joining us now, the director of the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health, Dr. Barbara Ferrer. Doctor, thank you for being with us.
So you're in the worst pocket of the state. The governor says the worst is behind him, his gut says. How would you answer that question for Los Angeles?
DR. BARBARA FERRER, DIRECTOR, L.A. COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH: You know, I first, I want to I want to thank you for inviting us to be here today.
And I agree with the governor that people have tried extraordinarily hard here. We've had a lot of limitations on what people can and cannot do. And we've had really high compliance, which I think has led to the fact that even across the state, we've had really a very slow spread of the virus here in California.
L.A. does have, however, worse statistics than any other part of the state. You know, L.A. County, where 10 million people, we have 40,000 beds in skilled nursing facilities. Forty five percent of our deaths are happening among people who live in skilled nursing facilities.
And that creates, I think, some of the reason why you see, when you look at our mortality rate, our hospitalization rate, our case counts, that they're slightly higher than other parts of the state.
We also have a lot of poverty here and people living in the margins. We have the largest homeless population in L.A. County. And I think these factors do contribute to the differences. You'll see. But one thing I know for sure is that everybody here in the county is doing their part to slow the spread.
We have really made great gains in terms of not seeing huge increases in our hospitalization rates. We haven't even seen any spike, a serious spike in the number of deaths. They have been creeping up steadily. A lot of our deaths, as I noted are occurring amongst our most vulnerable people who are already elderly and very sick. Ninety two percent of people who die in L.A. County have underlying health conditions. Until we have our work to do ahead of us. But I want to agree with the governor, people have made great strides here in slowing the spread.
KING: Well, it is good to hear that some optimism as you address the challenges ahead. You mentioned the poverty. You mentioned the homeless population.
One of the challenges there where you have communities that either don't have health care or don't have access to health care, don't have quick, easy local access to health care. How much are you flying blind in the sense? How many people are out there who have the coronavirus, you just don't know because you don't have enough testing yet. You don't have access to them. They don't have access to testing even if they want to. But one 133,000 people tested so far in L.A. County. You mentioned 10 million people. That number strikes me as not where you want it to be.
[12:40:00]
FERRER: No, we don't. And I want to say again, a lot of cooperation across the county family and with the mayor and the city. So we're expanding testing. You know, I think there's a couple of things to note, one is, people who live in wealthier communities in L.A. County have been tested more than people who are living in communities where there's less income, where there's higher rates of poverty.
So the first thing that we're doing under the leadership of Dr. Christina Ghaly is we're expanding access in communities that have less resources. And that means working better with our federally qualified health centers. And that means really dealing with that supply issue that you mentioned earlier in the program.
We have to be able to get a testing embedded in our primary care clinics, in our federally qualified health centers, people -- where people are going to get their care and they have trusted relationships that will augment what we're already doing with all the mobile testing sites.
But you're absolutely right. In order for us to actually continue to slow the spread, we have to be able to do more testing. The other challenges in our institutions, we have to actually be able to test and go ahead and test well, everybody who's in those institutions. We have a lot of people who are asymptomatic and positive for COVID-19 in institutional settings.
And the only way to contain an outbreak in that setting is for us to know who's positive. So even if they have no symptoms and we know they're positive, they will be isolated if they're an employee or they're a resident. And that will help contain the spread. That means that we're going to have to figure out --
KING: Dr. Ferrer, I'm sorry I need to interrupt you at this point. We need to go out of the White House now, the President of the United States with Dr. Fauci and the Governor of Louisiana. DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: -- Allergy and Infectious Diseases, which is the institute I direct, sponsored, called the Adaptive Co Virus Disease Treatment Trial, ACTT1 was started in February 21st of this year, and it was a randomized placebo-controlled trial comparing the Gilead drug, Remdesivir with a placebo.
It was highly powered with about a thousand ninety plus individuals. So it is the first truly high powered, randomized, placebo controlled trial. It was an international trial involving multiple sites not only in the United States, but in various countries throughout the world, including Germany, Denmark, Spain, Greece, the U.K., et cetera.
The primary endpoint was the time to recovery, namely the ability to be discharged. When you have a study like this, we have a Data and Safety Monitoring Board which looks at the data. And they are independent. So there is no prejudice on the part of the investigators because they're doing the trial or the drugs from a certain company.
The Data and Safety Monitoring born on Monday afternoon, contacted me on April 27th, first on Friday, the week before, and then again on April 27th, and notified the study team, namely the multiple investigators who were doing the study throughout the world, that the data shows that Remdesivir has a clear cut, significant, positive effect in diminishing the time to recovery.
This is really quite important for a number of reasons, and I'll give you the data. It's highly significant. If you look at the time to recovery being shorter in the Remdesivir arm, it was 11 days compared to 15 days. And that's a P value for the scientists who are listening, of 0.001. So that's something that, although with 31 percent improvement, doesn't seem like a knockout 100 percent. It is a very important proof of concept because what it has proven is that a drug can block this virus.
And I'll give you an example in a moment of why we think looking forward, this is very optimistic. The mortality rate trended towards being better in the sense of less deaths in the Remdesivir group, 8 percent versus 11 percent in the placebo group. It has not yet reached statistical significance, but the data needs to be further analyzed.
The reason why we're making the announcement now is something that I believe people don't fully appreciate. Whenever you have clear cut evidence that a drug works, you have an ethical obligation to immediately let the people who are in the placebo group know so that they could have access.
And all of the other trials that are taking place now have a new standard of care. So we would have normally waited several days until the data gets further to dot the I and cross the T. But the data are not going to change. Some of the numbers may change a little. But the conclusion will not change.
[12:45:01]
So when I was looking at this data with our team the other night, it was reminiscent of 34 years ago in 1986 when we were struggling for drugs for HIV. And we had nothing. And there was a lot of anecdotal reports about things that maybe did work, maybe not. People were taking different kinds of drugs.
And we did the first randomized placebo controlled trial with AZT, which turned out to give an effect that was modest, but that was not the end game, because building on that every year after, we did better and better, we had better drugs of the same type. And we had drugs against different targets. This drug happens to be blocking a enzyme that the virus uses. And that's an RNA polymerase. But there are a lot of other enzymes that the virus uses that are now going to be targets for this.
This will be the standard of care. And in fact, when we look at the other trials we're doing, we were going to do a trial with another antiviral. Actually, it isn't an antiviral. It's an anti-inflammatory, a monoclonal antibody. We're going to now compare the combination of Remdesivir with this. So as was drugs come in, we're going to see if we could add on that.
So, bottom line, you're going to be hearing more details about this. This will be submitted to a peer reviewed journal and we'll be peer reviewed appropriately. But we think it's really opening the door to the fact that we now have the capability of treating. And I can guarantee you, as more people, more companies, more investigators get involved, it's going to get better and better. So I'll stop there. But I'd be happy to answer any questions.
(CROSSTALK)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: -- go first and then you go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Things keeps changing the timeline of the development of a vaccination --
FAUCI: No, this has nothing to do with vaccines. This is treatment for people who are already infected. Vaccines is to prevent infection in those who are at risk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have your data on that.
FAUCI: No, nothing more than that. But I continue at the press conferences that we have regularly keep you up to date that everything is on track with the phase one study. We're in the third part of it. We're going to go into phase two in the summer. But nothing has changed that anything I've said when we had press conferences.
TRUMP: Tell me, you write a lot about Oxford. We know Johnson and Johnson is well advanced.
FAUCI: It's another candidate, another one of several candidates that are moving along because we're going to a lot of shots on goal when it comes to vaccines.
TRUMP: That's good. That's good. Yes. Please go ahead. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) thought process on states reopening their governments. Do you think people should be more comfortable knowing that there is a drug and its proven effective?
TRUMP: Well, I think it's a beginning. I though Tony explained it really well. It's a beginning. It means you build on it. I love that as a building block, you know, just as a building block. I love that.
But certainly it's a positive. It's a very positive event from that standpoint. And we're going to be very careful as we open. A lot of people, a lot of governors are opening. I know you're very advanced. You're going to be very advanced and getting it going.
But we're doing it very carefully. We've learned a lot over the last couple of months. And if there's a fire, we're going to put it out. If there's a little ember burning, we're going to put it out. We're going to put it out very quickly. And I think we've learned how to do that.
There have been some areas that have really started up and we put it out very quickly. So we've learned a lot. Yes, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, the stockpile guidelines inspired more, do you have to extend those?
TRUMP: Well, I'll let Mike. Do you want to explain what we're doing on that?
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think Mr. President we've issued the guidelines. Now it was actually 45 days ago, first 15 and then 30 days to slow the spread.
And frankly, every state in America has embraced those guidelines at a minimum or even done more. And now our focus is working with states as governors like Governor John Bel Edwards unveiled plans to open up their states again.
And the new guidance that we've issued is guidance for how they can do that safely and responsibly. And so the -- not only the gating criteria for when we believe it's appropriate for states to enter phase one are included, but also the very specific guidelines for when states open and how they can open in, as the President said, in a safe and responsible way, are included in the President's guidelines for open up America again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the current guidelines that will not be withstanding --
PENCE: The current guidelines, I think you can say, are very much incorporated in the guidance that we're giving states to open up America again, but maybe, Mr. President or Dr. Birx?
TRUMP: I think a way of saying it well, there'll be fading out because now the governors are doing it. I've had many calls from governors, Governor of Texas Greg Abbott and many, many governors, Tennessee, Arkansas. We're speaking to a lot of different people and they're explaining what they are doing. And I am very much in favor of what they're doing. They're getting it going. And we're opening our country again. Do you want to explain that please?
[12:50:06]
DR. DEBORAH BIRX, RESPONSE DIRECTOR, WH CORONAVIRUS TASK FORCE: Yes, I think you could see it from California. They made, slow the spread, the phase one of their four phases.
So every governor is adapting both currently where we are and moving forward of how to move through phase one, phase two, phase three. So the governor feels like they haven't met the creating criteria. Some of them have made that their own first phase one and some have a made up phase zero.
So we've been very encouraged to see how the federal guidelines have helped informed or at least provide a framework for governors and moving forward all the way through from what they now call either phase zero, all the way through phase three.
TRUMP: And Ron DeSantis, as you know, Governor of Florida was here yesterday and he gave us a really good presentation of how he's doing it, what he's doing, how he's opening. You might have seen it. And he did a very good job. I thought --
GOV. JOHN BEL EDWARDS (D-LA): Mr. President, I would say that if you look at the plan that you and I had put out for 30 days to stop the spread, the mitigation measures that you promoted in that plan or carry forward in the guidelines for reopening.
And so it's sort of a seamless way to do it by keeping those mitigation measures in place that you need to as you reopen, especially for the vulnerable population. So it's really up. I would agree with the vice president that it is carried forward, not just theoretically, but expressly in the document that you gave us. And I thank you.
BIRX: And thank you for mentioning the vulnerable people, because we've made it clear from all over the last eight weeks that there was certain risk groups that were particularly vulnerable to serious disease that has held up. We see in most of reports about 95 to 96 percent of the individuals with serious disease and hospitalizations are still in those groups.
I think that in a way that's reassuring, but it also should be a message to all of our vulnerable populations, as we have said for the last eight weeks, in phase one and in phase two, as well as in slow the spread. We've been very clear about them continuing to shelter and those families protecting them from becoming infected.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. President, what are you hoping to learn about China and World Health Organization with this investigation (INAUDIBLE).
TRUMP: Right. It's coming in and I'm getting pieces already. And we're not happy about it. And we are by far the largest contributor to WHO, World Health, and they misled us. I don't know. They must have known more than they knew because they came after what other people knew that weren't even involved. We knew things that they didn't know and either they didn't know or they didn't tell us or, you know, right now they're literally a pipe organ for China. That's the way I view it. So we're seeing and we're looking and we're watching.
And again, we give $500 million. We have over the years from 400 to 500 for a long time, for many years. And China is giving $38 million. And yet they seem to work for China. And they should have been in there early. They should have known what was going on. And they should have been able to stop it, we talk about stopping the spread or stopping the embers, that could have been stopped there.
And then why did China allow planes to fly out, but not into China, but they allow planes to come out. And planes are coming out of Wuhan and they're coming out -- they're going all over the world. They're going to Italy. Very, very big time to Italy. But they're going all over the world, but they're not going into China. What was that all about? So we had, no, no, you'll hear we're coming up with a very distinct recommendation, but we're not happy with it. We're not happy with it.
Even today, I've heard some statements that are very positive. There's nothing positive about what happened in China having to do with this subject, nothing positive at all. And I finished a number of months ago with a trade deal. And you would've thought it would have been like somebody would have said, hey, they could have stopped that at the source. They didn't have to let airplanes fly out and loads of people come out.
And we're lucky. As Tony said, we're lucky that we stopped it in January flowing into our country from China outside of our citizens. You know, people now say, oh, well, you shouldn't have let our citizens back in. Let's forget about that one. We're lucky --
KING: It's the President of the United States talking in the Oval Office there with reporters. One of the most interesting parts of the tape we just brought you there was Dr. Anthony Fauci giving a detailed presentation of what he says still needs to be peer reviewed. But he says he is convinced that a drug called Remdesivir is proving itself now in clinical trials as a drug, a therapeutic against the coronavirus, not a vaccine, not a cure, but something that helps patients performance improve, he said quite dramatically.
Let's bring back Dr. Larry. Brilliant, he is still with us, epidemiologists out in California. Dr. Brilliant, as you listen to Dr. Fauci, it seems a tad odd that, you know, still to be peer reviewed. The World Health Organization today saying it's not prepared to say anything about this study yet. But Dr. Fauci, making the case when you have data and you know it's good, you might have -- the numbers might change a little tiny bit. He said it's an ethical obligation to get it out there, especially for the patients in the trial who were taking the placebo.
[12:55:21] What did you make of that and how optimistic are you now that Remdesivir and maybe Remdesivir plus other drugs could at least help treat coronavirus as we wait, as we discussed earlier in the program, the months and months and months for a vaccine?
DR. LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: I'm cautiously optimistic. But by nature, I'm optimistic. There is a difference between having a moral obligation to stop a study because there's any value in the testing, the medicine you're testing. You have to for the benefit of the people that are in the study.
If it looks like you can give them a day or two or five shorter hospital stay, that you morally have to stop the study and therefore you have to make an announcement. That's not the same thing as proving something. This has not been proven therapeutic. Physicians would probably be reluctant to if they had other choices, to use something that protected in such a marginally valuable way.
But we don't have other choices and these are desperate times. So I thought Dr. Fauci played it straight down the middle by the rules.
KING: Our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is also with us as well. Elizabeth, Dr. Fauci is saying this will be the new standard of care. Explain what that means.
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. So they have been trying. They've been really grappling with how to get Remdesivir pay -- I'm sorry, what treatment, sorry. my phone is ringing. OK. Turned it off. OK. Now we're good.
So they have, the doctors have been really struggling with how do we treat these patients other than what's called supportive care, which is keeping them hydrated and their blood pressure at the right level, and all of those kinds of things. There's no treatment for COVID.
Now he's saying, you know what, we're going to consider this the standard treatment. In other words, everyone will get this drug. And I want to go over what exactly this study found, because I think it's not what people might think. It didn't cure it. It is not a cure at all. But it didn't seem to have an effect.
So, John, let's go over that. What they found was that people who were taking Remdesivir and this was a big study of more than a thousand patients in the U.S. and elsewhere had an 8 percent mortality rate, whereas when they were taking a placebo, they had an 11 percent mortality rate. So that was not a statistically significant difference, but still a difference that they're going to be looking at more.
Also, when you look at duration of illness, which is something that's very important, how long until someone got discharged on Remdesivir, it was 11 days. And on placebo, it was 15. So it's shortened the duration of the illness. So it didn't mean that everyone who took this drug lived or that everyone had a short hospital stay, not at all.
But what Dr. Fauci tried to emphasize, John, is that it opened the door to thinking, you know what, this drug seems to be doing something. And so we want everyone to have it. It would be unethical to keep studying it. We want everyone to have it.
KING: Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, is with us as well. And Sanjay, as you're listening, Dr. Fauci made the comparison to back in the HIV/AIDS days of AZT, which you said we found a drug that had some effect. And not only did we want to rush it out there to help give some effect, but then it also taught us the way. How do we build on? What does it do? In this case, he was saying blocks and enzyme. What did you take away from that?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think, you know, exactly as Elizabeth was saying and obviously, Dr. Brilliant, I mean, the two things I think, you know, that you need to keep in mind is, one, everyone is looking for some sort of victory here in this, because as Larry Brilliant was saying, we don't, you know, we don't have anything, everybody knows that.
And Dr. Fauci said, as a result of that, this should become the standard of care. I mean, compared to anything else, it's the standard of care compared to no standard of care right now. The other thing is, you know, you bring up AZT and there's been other, you know, caveats, you know, as you start to introduce medications to larger and larger populations, you know, things pop up, you know, and maybe it doesn't work as well for certain people or it causes some problems in certain segments of the population.
You would want to have those sorts of trials and deliberations and, you know, assuring that you're not going to cause some sort of problem, especially this is -- even though as Elizabeth said, a larger study than we've seen for some of these other therapies. It's still a small study. And it wasn't just so clear cut in terms of the benefit that you'd say, absolutely, you know, mostly benefit, very little harm. Let's go full throttle ahead. But these are unusual times, you know.
[12:59:55]
So I -- the Remdesivir is clearly been the medication, I think the World Health Organization has been most optimistic about. We've been talking to lots of researchers, Elizabeth and I, around the world. There's a big trial that's a part of this, 152 --
