Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

U.S Case Count Nears 1.2 Million, Death Toll Closes In On 70,000; Less Sheltering In Place As States Start To Reopen; Smithfield Plant In South Dakota Reopening Amid Outbreak. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired May 05, 2020 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:001]

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: I'm John King in Washington. This is CNN continuing coverage of the coronavirus pandemic.

Here in the United States, the case count, you see it on the screen, they will likely climb past 1.2 million by day's end. The death toll almost certain to surpass 70,000 American lives by this time tomorrow.

The president says it is time to get back to work and he says he doesn't buy an assessment from his own administration's scientist that the case count and the death toll could climb dramatically as more and more of the economy reopens this month.

And a new outrage from the president as he explains his refusal to let Dr. Fauci to testify before the House committee. Democrats want him to fail even if it means more Americans have to die.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The House is a set up. The House is a bunch haters of Trump haters. They put every Trump hater in the committee, the same old stuff. They frankly want our situation to be unsuccessful, which means death, which means death.

Frankly, the Democrats should be ashamed because they don't want us to succeed. They want us to fail so they can win an election, which they're not going to win. But they want us -- think of it. They do everything they can to make things as bad as possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: By Sunday, at least 42 states will be partially reopened. Polls indicate Americans are just now okay with going to the grocery stores but are not ready to dine out or go shopping. Golf courses, barbershops, gun stores, nail salons, gyms and movie theaters, most Americans, you see the numbers there, say they should all stay shuttered at least right now.

New York's governor last hour with a forceful counter to the reopen argument, you cannot trade lives for dollars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): How much do we think a human life is worth?

You stay closed, there is a cost. You reopen quickly, and there is a cost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And listen to the president, and he is all in on reopening.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Well, the governors have -- yes, it's a fair question. The governors have -- I have given them great discretion. If, however, I see somebody doing something that's egregious or wrong, I will stop it in two seconds.

We have to get our country open. We have to open our country. So you have all reports -- look, models have been very inaccurate. We did it the right way. We did everything right. But now it's time to go back to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: New human vaccine trials are underway right now in the United States, this part of a partnership between the drug giant, Pfizer, and a German company. The companies are actually testing four vaccines in these new trials in a race to find one that works.

CNN's Fred Pleitgen live for us in Berlin. Fred, these trials started in Germany last week. What more are you learning about them?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, trials, John, are still being expanded both in Germany and in the United States as well. The German trial started with 12 participants and they're going to move to 200 participants. The American ones started very small today but they say they want to move in the U.S., Pfizer and this German company, BioNTech, to about 360 participants.

Of course, the main thing is they're going to test is, first of all, whether or not this new vaccine which is called BNT-162, and as you said, it's actually four different vaccines of which they're going to see which version is the best one, whether or not that's safe and whether or not that is effective.

Now, the company is quite bold in some of the statements that it's made. The say that if they get certification, if everything goes according to plan, they could potentially go to emergency use for this vaccine in fall. They say they could have millions of doses available in 2020, by the end of 2020, and potentially hundreds of millions doses in 2021. Now, that is if all goes according to plan and if they get final certification.

I was able to speak to the CEO of BioNTech, who was here in Germany earlier today. And he says he believes right now the benefits of making a vaccine against COVID-19 happen are so big that he believes that regulators will work with them. Here is what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UGUR SAHIN, CEO, BIONTECH: You can ask the question, what is the remaining if you have those thousand subjects? What is the remaining risk if you have those 10,000 subjects and have shown that this is safe, yes? And then you have to ask what is the benefit. The benefit of a vaccine in a pandemic situation is much, much greater, yes? And, therefore, an approval or an authorization of vaccine in a pandemic situation has to follow other rules than what we have seen in the past.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PLEITGEN: No, of course, John, the CEO of BioNTech says he is very confident in the work that he's done so far and the results that they've been getting so far. He says, in pre-clinical trials, even low doses have led to very good results, they say. But, of course, they are still in the very early stages. There is still a lot that can go wrong. And, of course, they are also not the only ones who are testing these vaccines.

The World Health Organization is saying today that there are currently 108 candidate vaccines around the world. Only eight of which, however, are certified for clinical trials.

[13:05:02]

This is one of the ones now here in Germany and now in the U.S. as well. And, again, right now, they say they are confident but, of course, still, we always have to say, at the early stages of these clinical trials in the United States, John.

KING: Very important there. Fred Pleitgen, I appreciate that. Let's wish them luck. But you're right, we need to make clear, very, very early stages. Fred, thanks so much.

Let's continue the conversation. Dr. Paul Offit is Director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital Philadelphia. Dr. Offit, thanks for being with us.

You have great expertise at this. So when you hear whether it's this particular one here or some of these other say, we think we got it and, we are racing ahead, it could be by fall, it could be by early next year. To the point Fred Pleitgen was making at the end there about the cautionary flags, are you convinced that this could be done that quickly, safely?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER: Well, we don't know how to make a vaccine against this virus yet. Some groups are taking the virus and killing it in the same way that we made the polio vaccine. Some are weakening the virus in the same way we made the measles vaccine. Some are just taking the surface protein of the virus, which is the same way we made the hepatitis B Vaccine.

For something like this group, we're just essentially causing the body to make that coronavirus surface protein on its own, the so-called mRNA approach or DNA approach. We don't know what's going to work. We don't know whether these vaccines are safe yet. And even though they may show initially that they can induce a new response, we still don't have what is an immunological core (ph) for protection. We are not going to know any of those things until we do safety and efficacy trials.

And so it's a little hard to stand back and watch this kind of science by a press report or press release data when we finally do the studies to see whether these things work and whether they're safe. I certainly think we can make a vaccine but let's wait to see whether or not these results are as promising when we really put these into the large numbers of people.

KING: I appreciate your perspective insights there. Because in the middle of this is a layperson who every day is trying to read and learn more about this. You see press releases from all these companies, whether it's therapeutics, whether it's vaccines. And you wish them the best but you also have to worry there is branding at stake, there is financial markets at stake here, so you are not sure so much of how much attention to give this or that.

You also work with the FDA, part of its advisory committee here. Clearly, the world wants to get to the finish line as quickly as possible. Help me understand what steps can you shorten, if that's the right word for it, and what steps are absolutely essential when it comes to if you are going to mass produce something, you have to be certain about the safety? So what can be shaved from the process, in your mind, without taking away those safety barriers?

OFFIT: Well, I think the one thing that can't be shaved is what is going to amount to a large prospect of placebo control efficacy trial. The very least, you need to make sure this vaccine is safe before you put into tens of millions of people, many of whom are going to be healthy young people who are unlikely to die from this virus.

So you need to -- the most important is to establish safety. You'd like to be able to have efficacy to show that the vaccine works or you could do the so-called Ebola vaccine model, which basically you knew you had a good sense that it was safe but you didn't know whether it worked. So when there was that outbreak in West Africa, you rolled out that vaccine. Not everybody could get it all at once. Some people got it. Some people didn't get it. So then you can tell whether or not it was effective.

Personally, I would prefer not to do it that way because if you have a vaccine that is not as effective as you'd hope, I think that's going to be a major hit to vaccine competence in this country, in this world. So let's do the kinds of large prospective efficacy trials and safety trials to make sure this vaccine is what we hope it will be.

And I think it's going to be more than one vaccine. I think we'll have several vaccines not only in this country but in the world.

KING: And at the beginning, you were mentioning the different ways scientists are trying to develop a vaccine, right, how do you attack it, what do you create. Well, when you look, there are 108 potential vaccines in the works worldwide, eight potential vaccines are proven for clinical trials. Have you seen anything yet that gives you any reasonable confidence that this approach might be more promising than that approach or are we too early even in that process?

OFFIT: Too early in that process. I mean, the good news is this virus is stable, it doesn't mutate, so it's not going to be like the influenza vaccine, where it's a moving target and you need to give a new vaccine every year. So that's good news. We have gotten certainly -- we know that there's enormous interest and enormous money and enormous pull mechanisms to make these vaccines. So I think we will generate this data quickly. But we should wait until they're generated.

It's always disheartening to see people lacking the kind humility they should have because certainly nature gives itself up slowly and often with a human price. So let's take our time and make sure we get it right.

KING: Amen, Dr. Offit, I appreciate your perspective and expertise and the additional, smart -- very smart humility there. Doctor, thank you so much for your help.

OFFIT: Thank you.

KING: Thank you.

When we come back, Texas and Georgia among the states easing restrictions. Are people listening and going out or are they still staying home?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:10:00]

KING: Take a look now. It's a new day that defines fewer people sheltering in place compared to a month ago, this as states where restrictions are still enforced.

Take a look at the time lapse. It goes for March, we start to move through the beginning of May. You see the blue right there, people moving around the country, the normal pace under yellow, then the stay-at-home orders happen, and you get all the blue. And you see now the country peaked for sheltering in place. You see less blue there, more movement as states ease those stay-at-home orders.

Let's take a closer look at two states that have already eased restrictions. Let's look at Texas. If you look at the data here, and you can see line at home (ph), about 43 percent of Texans were staying at home here in early April.

You see, as we go through, announcement here, restrictions are being eased, this was when the restrictions were eased, and then you see the drop from 43 percent down to 35 percent. So just only a third, a little more than a third staying at home right now.

[13:15:00]

This is through last week. So we'll see new data in the days ahead as more and more people go out. We'll see if that'll continues to drop.

If you look at Georgia here, pretty much the same situation. Announcements we' going to ease, this is the date they dropped, you see fewer people staying at home, starting to get out. The question is, does that continue as we go through?

If you look Texas and Georgia together, it's exactly the same pattern. This is at the height of the stay-at-home. You see now people starting to move about. Again, this is through the end of April, the last few days. We will see the data in the days ahead, see if it continues to drop.

Where do they go? As people come out, where are they going? If you look at the uptick here, and, again, this data is several days old. They compile it and release it as we go. So we'll get newer data.

But right after the restrictions are eased, you see this little spike, nail salons, restaurants stayed pretty flat, gyms up a little tiny bit, this is in the State of Texas, and movie theaters stayed pretty flat, 90 percent below normal traffic there.

Let's look over in Georgia as well. Again, you see the spike here when the restrictions were eased, nail salons up, restaurants stayed pretty flat, gyms in Georgia went up a little tiny bit, movie theaters in Georgia up a little tiny bit. This is data that's about five days old, four to five days old. Now, as they compile more, the issue where these lines go as we get deeper and deeper into the reopen.

One of the states in the middle of this experience is Dallas. Ed Lavandera is there in Texas for us.

Ed, the state is reopening but Dallas County suddenly has an uptick in new cases.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It does. We've seen here in Texas statewide the newest numbers released here today for Tuesday, May 5th. And now we have seen that over the course of the last five of the last six days, there have been more than a thousand new coronavirus cases being reported here across the state. And in Dallas County in particular, the latest numbers for today haven't been released just yet. But we have seen an uptick in the number of cases.

This is the fifth day of the first phase of the reopening of the Texas economy. So we really haven't seen the effects of that reopening on this current number. So it will take some time. That does not happen in real-time. So it will take a few days before we see the effects of the reopening and the easing of restrictions here across the state.

But for many people, these early indications are troubling news as to where exactly this is headed, John, so a great deal of concern there. We should also point out there is a great deal of more testing now going on in Texas. Today, for example, more than 34,000 tests were administered. That's probably the highest number we have seen in the last month.

But there are also more than 300 new cases of people being hospitalized because of coronavirus. And that is one of the more troubling indicators and one of the indicators that state officials say they'll be looking at in the weeks ahead as they try to determine whether or not to move along to the second phase of the reopening process here in Texas. John?

KING: That is the fascinating part as we watch the data. Well, how will the politicians react to the data as it goes forward? Ed Lavandera, again, I appreciate you reporting on the ground for us in Dallas there.

So just how ready is the country to fully reopen? Joining me now to discuss, Dr. Patrice, she's the President of the American Medical Association and a psychiatrist. She's also the former Medical Director for the Fulton County Health Department in Georgia, one of the state's hardest hit areas. Doctor, it's good to see you.

And so you have this economic debate about reopening. You have concern from the medical professionals and this is also come straight into your wheelhouse in terms of the psychology of the American people as they go forward through this.

I just want to show you -- I'll just show you -- well, let me start with this one. This is a brand new Monmouth poll just out today. I'm sorry, I gave the controller a mixed signal there. 56 percent of Americans say making sure as few people as possible get sick is the most important factor right now. 33 percent, it should be making sure the economy doesn't go to a deep and lengthy downturn.

So, 56 percent, nearly six in ten Americans are asking the government, asking their local leaders, their state leaders, their president to put health concerns first. Is that what you are seeing in the actions of those politicians?

DR. PATRICE HARRIS, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION: That's right, John. And I remember something that my wise grandmother used to say. She said, just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should do something. And, unfortunately, I am seeing sort of both ends of the spectrum. I have seen folks in large gatherings, no mask, close contact. And then, as you said, we have folks who still think it's too early to even go out about to dine. So we are seeing a variety of responses.

Unfortunately, though, we are likely to see an increase in the number of hospitalizations, certainly in the number of positive cases and, unfortunately, death because we may be relaxing too soon.

And so that's the hardest part and sometimes you can't find the words to have the conversation. Governor Cuomo tried in New York today, essentially saying the politicians are ducking this. They're saying they're making an economic conversation, that part of your calculation, as any governor, you're creating your plan is, how many lives are you willing to lose?

[13:20:01]

How aggressive are you willing to be in reopening? You have zero doubt the case numbers will go up. The question is, is there any way to build a model that says where is the valve? You can reopen this much, let this percentage of workplace go back to work in certain businesses and then check it. Is that what you want to do, every two weeks, every ten days? How would you do that?

HARRIS: Well, that is exactly right. And we've always said at the AMA that we are making a false choice between the economy and lives. We believe with the measured approach and robust testing capacity where you can react fast and adapt fast, using that valve-like approach, as you say. We can make progress. It may be slow, it may be too slow for some, but that is the best way to minimize the risk of lives while, again, slowly loosening these restrictions and opening up the economy.

We spend too much time on the either/or. We can do both with measure, with thoughtfulness and with metrics and the ability to dial back once we have the data.

KING: And so when you watch some of the data, I will bring it back now, this is from SafeGraph, its data-tracking cell phone data. And if you look up at New Jersey, shelter-in-place trends, New Jersey has stayed pretty steady up there, obviously been a very, very hard-hit state.

California, which registered early on this coronavirus crisis, down about 43 percent of California's sheltering. It was a little higher than that before.

And you see Texas and Georgia down below, a small percentage, about a little more than a third, 35 percent, 34 percent. This is after a few days ago. So we suspect that number has even dropped as the reopening continued.

What do you attribute this? Do you think this is the state's harder hit or earlier hit? Do you think it's part of the conservative south, government can't tell me what to do?

HARRIS: It could be a combination of both. I do know and do understand that people want to get out. I have not been able to visit my dad. That's my personal issue. So I want people to know that they can get out, they can be out. They should wear face coverings, make sure they stay six feet apart all around them, not just people in front of them.

So you can get out slowly. I understand that. But we have to make sure that we don't put many lives in peril. We have done so well thus far. We have beat those early models and we will have to continue the hard work to make sure we don't get the death projections that we just saw in the last 24 hours.

KING: Dr. Harris, I very much appreciate your time and your insights.

HARRIS: Thank you, John. Good to be with you.

KING: Thank you. It's great to see you.

When we come back, the meat-packing industry has been a major problem across the country in recent weeks. We go out to Sioux Falls and the Smithfield plant there about to be reopen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:00]

KING: More than a dozen states across the country have meat processing plants that are either closed or partially open with reduced staffing or workloads. The Smithfield plant in Sioux Falls, South Dakota now slowing getting up and running again. But it's still has one of the largest coronavirus outbreaks in the country. More than 1,000 cases are linked to that one plant. Two workers there have died.

South Dakota's governor believes her state now has what meat plants need to keep their workers safe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. KRISTI NOEM (R-SD): We're expecting the plants in South Dakota to get back online here in a matter of days. The state has stepped up and provided personal protective equipment. The federal government has helped us, make sure we have the testing capability to aggressively go after any kind of hotspots we might see in the future. And so we believe we are prepared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Joining me now is the Republican mayor of Sioux Falls, Paul TenHaken. Mr. Mayor, it's good to see you again. Is the governor right? Are you ready? Are these plants ready to be back at full or close to full operation?

MAYOR PAUL TENHAKEN (R), SIOUX FALLS, SD: Well, hey, John. Thanks for having me. This is obviously an important topic when you talk about these meat plants. And they have become kind of the (INAUDIBLE) for coronavirus hotspots around the country.

And I think when you say are they going to be completely ready and completely safe, I don't know how you will ever get to a point where you say those environments are going to be completely safe and that's hard. That's what makes it difficult for us as leaders to be able to stand up and we want to be able to say, listen, employees, you can feel 100 percent confident that you can walk into this facility and be 100 percent protective from COVID. And we can't do that. I can't do that. I don't think anyone can do that.

And that's the hard kind of tightrope we are walking right now, is trying to figuring out what that appropriate level of safety looks like, as well as what both the USDA, the CDC, OSHA, Department of Ag, what they're telling us at the federal level, they need to see how these plants to get the open as quickly as possible.

KING: And it's critical conversation in your community, it's also a piece of the larger conversation in the country. These essential workers have been going to work throughout all this. And as mayors and governors and president are trying to say, let's get more of the economy reopening, what lessons are we learning for people who are working in these tight proximity environments who maybe didn't have enough PPE at the beginning, didn't have a testing regiment up to speed?

[13:30:07]