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Virus Hits The West Wing: Two Staffers Close To Trump And Pence Test Positive This Week; NY Governor: Illness That May Be Virus- Related Takes Three Young Lives; Obama Delivers Harsh Criticism Of Trump's Response To Pandemic; Coronavirus Curve Trends Upwards As States Reopen; Poll: Majority In U.S. Say Too Soon For States To Reopen; Demonstrations In Georgia Demand Justice For Ahmaud Arbery. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired May 09, 2020 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[16:00:30]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: Hello, on a Saturday. You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

It is a blistering slam of the Trump administration's handling of the coronavirus emergency, and it comes from a former president of the United States. Barack Obama recorded during a private phone call Friday night calling the U.S. response to the crisis an absolute chaotic disaster. President Obama was talking to a group of former members of his administration. We'll have more details and more comments from the former president coming up.

Meantime, doctors in New York this weekend are working to determine if an illness responsible for dozens of sick children and the deaths of three young people could be related to this coronavirus pandemic. New York's governor today saying the kids had COVID-19 antibodies but not the typical symptoms. A pediatrician joins us right here this hour.

And by the end of this weekend, people in at least 47 states will say their stay-at-home restrictions eased to some degree. More businesses will be allowed to open. More services restarted, all with spacing and sanitation rules in place. A new poll this weekend shows that more than two-thirds of Americans worry their states are reopening too quickly.

Let's begin at the White House where two people who were working there this very week have tested positive, creating concern in the West Wing.

CNN's Chief White House Correspondent Jim Acosta reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM ACOSTA, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the second straight day, the White House is confirming a staffer has contracted the coronavirus. This time, a senior official, Vice President Mike Pence's press secretary, Katie Miller.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She's a wonderful young woman. Katie, she tested, uh, very good for a long period of time and then all of a sudden today she tested positive. She hasn't come into contact with me.

ACOSTA: But the potential that the West Wing has become a hotspot for the virus is now real. Miller is married to one of the president's top aides, speechwriter and domestic policy adviser Stephen Miller. Word of Katie Miller's test results comes one day after the president acknowledged one of his military valets came up positive too.

TRUMP: Know who he is, good person, but I've had very little contact, Mike has had very little contact with him.

ACOSTA: And yet the White House appears to be stubbornly avoiding some precautions like masks. The president greeted World War II veterans on the National Mall without wearing one.

TRUMP: We were very far away. You saw. Plus, the wind was blowing so hard, in such a direction that if the plague ever reached them might be very surprising. It could have reached me too. You didn't worry about me. You only worried about them and that's OK.

ACOSTA: Neither were Republican members of Congress meeting with the president. The one lawmaker noted they were tested for the virus before the event.

The virus is hitting home at the White House, as the president is grappling with a staggering new unemployment rate, 14.7 percent, the highest on record since the Great Depression.

White House Economic Adviser Larry Kudlow noted Wall Street doesn't seem to be too worried.

LARRY KUDLOW, WHITE HOUSE ECONOMIC ADVISER: If you had told me that I would go on the air on a day when we lost 20 million jobs, and the stock market would go up 400 points, that would have been very interesting.

ACOSTA: But another economic adviser, Kevin Hassett, said more devastating numbers are on the way.

KEVIN HASSETT, WHITE HOUSE SENIOR ECONOMIC ADVISER: I want to say how heartbreaking it is to see a report like this. Probably the next number will be a little bit higher than this.

ACOSTA (on camera): What is the president's plan to get this country out of the ditch?

KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Yes, you know, this president is the jobs president. This president got us to a place where we had the lowest unemployment rate in the history of this country.

ACOSTA: What's the plan?

MCENANY: There are a lot of proposals being entertained. I don't want to get ahead of the president. ACOSTA (voice-over): The administration has another big problem on its hands as a federal investigative office has found that a top vaccine official, Dr. Rick Bright, may have been retaliated against, raising questions about the White House's response to the virus.

Bright's lawyer say they've been informed that the Department of Health and Human Services violated the Whistleblower Protection Act by removing Dr. Bright from his position because he made protected disclosures in the best interest of the American public.

The president brushed off the bright case.

TRUMP: To me, he looks like a disgruntled employee.

ACOSTA: But the president is not trying to deny what's become painfully obvious. That the number of dead in the U.S. from the virus will keep climbing, perhaps by the tens of thousands.

TRUMP: We may be talking about 95,000 people ultimately. We may be talking about something more than that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Jim Acosta reporting.

We also learned late yesterday that Ivanka Trump's personal assistant has also tested positive but we're told she has been teleworking for two months and has not been near Ivanka Trump in weeks.

[16:05:04]

For those keeping count, however, that is three White House staffers diagnosed within a span of days.

Let's bring in Dr. Gigi El-Bayoumi. She's a professor of medicine at George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Services. Also with us, epidemiologist, Dr. Larry Brilliant.

And I want to start with this revelation that three White House staffers, two of whom have had close contact with the president and the vice president, they've tested positive for coronavirus in the span of just a few days. The president, we know, is 73 years old. The vice president is 60. The White House, of course, is an essential business. These people have to come to work.

We understand that as of right now, White House staff is receiving rapid coronavirus tests. They must wear mask if they're in the residence and the West Wing is being sanitized more frequently.

So, Dr. El-Bayoumi, first to you. What other safety measures would you like to see?

DR. GIGI EL-BAYOUMI, PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY, SCHOOL OF MEDICINE & HEALTH SERVICES: Well, first of all, let me start off by saying what works. We know that physical distancing, washing hands, and masks work. What I would suggest is that they're getting some degree of false reassurance with a negative test because don't forget, viruses can climb aboard clothes, fomites, which are things like telephones or other sort of inanimate objects.

So, you know, just like we do with patients, we suggest what the best thing is, people can decline. I would not decline but that's their prerogative.

CABRERA: Dr. Brilliant, the White House has been heavily relying on the Abbott rapid results test to screen people who will come into close contact with the president or the vice president. We know Pence's press secretary, who tested positive just yesterday, had tested negative just one day prior.

Do we know when an infected individual becomes contagious? Is it only after a test would have come back positive?

DR. LARRY BRILLIANT, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Hello, Ana. First of all, we extend our hopes to all the people who have been affected, that they do well. They're public servants and we wish them good health and all the best.

You know, the science and when pre-symptomatic cases or preclinical cases can shed the virus and infect people and post-symptomatic cases is still under a great deal of scrutiny, but since the incubation period is very long, it could be very long between 10 to 14 days, about six or seven days, we sort of think that it's five days before, roughly, and five days after you begin to show symptoms that you're -- you're going to test positive or you're going to have the virus.

But I would say out of an abundance of caution, we should be first grateful that they're doing testing every day. That reduces the risk. Grateful they're doing that. The rest of the country could do that.

And we hope that they will wear masks because if this was in the house, everybody would be wearing a mask and gloves.

CABRERA: And we know asymptomatic spread is happening.

The NIH director testified this week that the Abbott test, which is the test the vice president's press secretary received, has as much as a 15 percent false negative rate. Dr. Brilliant, is that high?

BRILLIANT: Yes. It's very high. I mean, we should be looking at 97 percent, 98 percent accurate tests, both for sensitivity and specificity. 15 percent of either false negatives or false positives, each have a lot of difficulty.

CABRERA: Dr. El-Bayoumi, Dr. Birx said in CNN's town hall this week that the U.S. is testing about 2.5 percent of the U.S. population. However, some good news, the FDA has just approved a saliva test that can be done at home and an antigen test. Do you think that would have a significant impact on our testing capabilities?

EL-BAYOUMI: I certainly hope so. But who gets these tests? Is insurance going to cover them? Are people who are especially from the black, brown, the elderly communities going to have access to them? But, look, any steps forward to increase the testing is welcome, but

with a caveat that we still don't know how that's going to go forth.

CABRERA: Dr. Brilliant, we're just learning about a new study at Columbia University that found a small group of coronavirus patients taking a common over-the-counter heartburn medication had a decreased risk of dying or being intubated. In fact, they were more than twice as likely to survive. Now, the authors of the study note it could be just a coincidence and we know a clinical trial is under way.

I understand we sent you the study so you could look over it. Is it promising?

BRILLIANT: I think it's fascinating. The history of it is that this is a poor person's medication in China and the Chinese doctors were perplexed that people who came from lower economic class were doing better than some of the wealthier patients who were on proton pump inhibiters, which is the more expensive treatment and that led them to do a rough study, which showed some promise.

Then one of the U.S. doctors who was there brought back the idea and Columbia did this study.

[16:10:05]

I think it's interesting. Certainly, it's showing a fairly large response.

I would say, be careful. That was IV drugs, people in the hospital. Don't go out and rush and buy it. By the way, it's almost sold out in drugstores all over.

Be really careful. It has side effects. It is especially toxic to your kidneys, so this is early.

I would go with what the authors said in the end, Ana. They said, this is enough information to go forward to a randomized prospective case control cohort study. That's the way we'll find out for sure.

But I would have to admit, as amusing as it sounded, when I read the paper, I found it fascinating.

CABRERA: Fingers crossed that there's something.

BRILLIANT: Fingers crossed, exactly.

CABRERA: Dr. El-Bayoumi, right now, there's only the one approved treatment, that is remdesivir.

EL-BAYOUMI: Yes.

CABRERA: How accessible is that drug for patients right now? Do you know?

EL-BAYOUMI: So, I tell you, I've been working in the hospital all week and right now it's only available to patients in the ICU under a compassionate use sort of through FDA.

You see, one of the things that I just want to get the point across in terms of this infection is that timing of giving these medications is everything. The people who end up in the ICU on respirators have a very robust inflammatory response, and actually, that may be one of the reasons that the Pepcid or the famotidine, that may be a mechanism of action because we use that drug as a histamine blocker for allergic reactions. So, the same of it, and same with remdesivir, if it's given earlier, before people start to go to the ICU, when their inflammatory cascade starts to go up and we can measure that with blood tests.

Right now, we don't have, and we're not the only ones in Washington, D.C. I've talked to my friends and colleagues all over the country, and it's the same thing. There's a very patchy way that it's being distributed. So we really need to look not only at the drugs because there are other drugs that are looking like they're having promise, but timing is everything, and we've got to figure out what that sweet spot is.

CABRERA: Yes, and without definitive treatments and a vaccine, obviously, unfortunately, the death toll is going to continue to go up. It seems like it's been climbing about 2,000 a day or so recently.

Dr. Brilliant, the president has recently revised his expectations of the death toll. He now says as many as 100,000 Americans may die. We're looking at over 78,000 today.

Does that number, 100,000, sound low, high, or about right to you?

BRILLIANT: Well, it depends on what day by which we're talking about. When the origin the Chris Murray studies came out from Washington, he was saying that there would be 60 or 70,000 deaths by August 3rd. Clearly, we've already passed that and it isn't anywhere near August 3rd. That was always the target.

This is going to be a much longer pandemic. We're going to be dealing with it in the United States until a vaccine plus the time it takes to vaccinate everybody. So if we're adding 2,000 deaths a day right now, and we're at 79,000 right now, it's not going to take very many days before we exceed 100,000.

And each of these are a human being. Each of these is a tragedy. Many of them could have been averted. So we need to think about, this is a huge number for us to be dealing with in May.

CABRERA: Yes, in May. That's what's so scary. All the projections were through august or at least until we hit August.

Dr. Larry Brilliant and Dr. Gigi El-Bayoumi, thank you very much, both, I could always ask you more questions, there's so many. So much we don't know yet. Thank you.

BRILLIANT: Thank you, Ana.

CABRERA: I want to talk more, though, about the new concerns involving the coronavirus and children. Up next, we have a pediatrician joining us to explain this issue and if parents should be worried.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:18:07]

CABRERA: Children and the coronavirus. For months, parents thought maybe our kids weren't as vulnerable. The majority of deaths have been among the elderly and people with preexisting conditions. But now, there's growing concern after two young children and a teenager died after experiencing a very rare syndrome that may be linked to the coronavirus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: We thought that children might be vehicles of transmission, a child could get affected and come home and infect the family, but we didn't think children would suffer from it. If this is true, some of these children are very, very old.

So, caution to all people who, again, may have believed that their child couldn't be affected by COVID. This information suggests we may want to revisit that, quote, unquote, fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: The governor says they are now investigating how the coronavirus may be linked to a cluster of inflammatory issues in 73 pediatric patients across the state of New York. Similar cases are being reported in New Jersey, Georgia, and even the U.K. The symptoms include rash, swelling of the hands and feet, and redness in both eyes similar to Kawasaki disease.

Back with us as he has been whenever we have questions about our kids throughout our coronavirus coverage is Dr. Glenn Budnick, chairman of the Pediatrics Reliance Medical Group.

Dr. Budnick, always good to have you with us.

First, can you just explain what Kawasaki disease is and the harm it can cause?

DR. GLENN BUDNICK, CHAIRMAN, PEDIATRIC RELIANCE MEDICAL GROUP: Sure, Ana, and it's nice to be back with you. Kawasaki's disease is an inflammatory disease, an inflammation of the blood vessels, but what concerns us, especially with Kawasaki's, is that the blood vessels, the heart can get inflamed.

[16:20:01]

And they can actually cause weakening of the blood vessels of the heart and you can sustain damage to the heart, even similar to a heart attack for -- as they had in adult because these blood vessels are damaged and it can damage the muscle of the heart also.

So it can cause severe damage to the heart, including death.

CABRERA: Obviously, nothing has been proven, but what could possibly explain this possible connection to coronavirus?

BUDNICK: Well, just like your previous doctors were talking about, the inflammatory response, they're seeing this as a possible second phase of COVID virus, where your immune system is overreacting to the virus and because these are inflammatory diseases, this overreaction can cause a Kawasaki-like disease like you described with prolonged fever, pinkeye, swollen glands, and a rash somewhere between your neck and your groin area, sometimes associated with peeling.

So, all this could be the -- from the inflammatory reaction to the COVID virus.

CABRERA: Now, are you getting the sense that children are at greater risk from COVID-19 than previously thought or do you still believe these cases are outliers?

BUDNICK: Well, it's a good question. What we really think is that there's a large number of children infected and that this is a rare complication but it is a complication that, of course, if I was a parent, I'd be concerned about.

And today, they released in -- through Governor Cuomo in New York, symptomatology lists of what people should do with children, call the doctor if there's prolonged fever for five days, if there's difficulty feeding, if there's severe abdominal pain, decreasing urination, change in color of the skin, trouble breathing, racing heart, confusion. I know it's a long list of symptoms but they're symptoms of inflammation and early signs of shock that should always be obviously when your child has a fever for 24, 48 hours, your child looks sick, err on the side of calling the doctor.

You don't have to worry about the list of symptoms, but if your chill has a prolonged fever, looks sick, isn't eating well, is lethargic, like anybody, we want to call our doctor sooner than later, especially in these times.

CABRERA: I mean, the list of symptoms you just gave, though, is really helpful, I think, to parents who are listening because they're thinking, what should by looking for and I did post that list that the governor put out as well on my Twitter page.

BUDNICK: Thank you.

CABRERA: Meantime, we also have the CDC warning this week that childhood vaccinations have plunged since the pandemic started. No doubt because parents are too afraid to take their kids out anywhere, but what kind of impact could this have?

BUDNICK: Well, you're 100 percent -- we had discussed this a couple weeks ago, Ana, together, that the immunization rate in the office has decreased by over 70 percent because parents are rightfully scared with the coronavirus. But unfortunately, or fortunately, we have to start getting back to our routine because unless we get children immunized, the common childhood diseases, measles, whooping cough, meningitis, that we've obliterated with vaccines, we've cured them like we're going to cure COVID virus with a vaccine, we have to keep those levels up.

We don't want to replace our pandemic with epidemics of childhood diseases that we should replace. We urge the -- our parents to come to the doctor's office. They're making their offices a safe space from COVID, doing various means, and they should come and get their immunizations because we want to keep up our immunization rate and keep these diseases away from our children.

CABRERA: Dr. Glenn Budnick, I appreciate the conversation. Thank you for providing all that good information for us.

BUDNICK: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: President Barack Obama taking aim at the Trump administration's coronavirus response, calling it an absolute chaotic disaster. Up next, one of the former president's homeland security officials joins us live to break down the comments.

And there are many more questions, of course, about coronavirus, like what happens after the pandemic? Watch "The Post-COVID-19 World", a "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS" special tomorrow morning at 10:00 right here on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:29:03]

CABRERA: In what may be his sharpest critique yet of his successor, former President Obama did not mince words when it comes to President Trump's response to the COVID-19 pandemic. Listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's part of the reason why the response to this global crisis has been so anemic and spotty, and it would have been bad even with the best of governments. It has been an absolute chaotic disaster when that mindset of, what's in it for me, and to heck with everybody else, when that mindset is operationalized in our government.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CABRERA: Juliette Kayyem is a CNN national security analyst and served as assistant secretary for the Department of Homeland Security under President Obama.

[16:30:00]

Juliette, what did you make of President Obama's assessment there?

Julia, can you hear me?

JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I mean, I think it's -- it's pretty accurate at this stage. I didn't think it was as, like, terribly harsh -- yes, I can. Can you hear me?

CABRERA: Yes, I think we just have a long delay. Please continue.

KAYYEM: Can you hear me?

(AUDIO PROBLEM)

KAYYEM: Oh, OK. Well, a delay.

I just think -- I didn't think it was as harsh as everyone seems to be making. I think the president, who, as you said, has remained quiet, President Obama has, was really just focused on how dismal the operational side of this is in terms of testing and tracing and getting resources to the states.

He didn't go after Trump personally except for the -- you know, sort of the reference to, I think, Jared Kushner about getting things for yourself. Jared Kushner's involvement with the supply chain.

So, I think it was, you know, it was tempered, I think. But it was also a reminder that presidents need to get stuff done. And that's why we elect them, especially in a crisis.

And this president has, you know, as we enter the 100,000 dead stage, which is just -- it will be in the next seven to 10 days, that no president should be applauded for that. Let's just put it that way.

CABRERA: Juliette, stay with me because we're going to fix the delay so that every question I ask doesn't have a long delay. And we'll bring you back right after a quick break.

Juliette, thank you.

KAYYEM: I hear you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:35:47]

CABRERA: And welcome back.

Juliette Kayyem is back with us.

We believe the long delay is gone.

KAYYEM: We hope so.

CABRERA: Juliette, I want to focus forward on this conversation and the coronavirus pandemic because 47 states will be partially reopened by May 17th. Many of these states that have already opened back up are trending up on the coronavirus curve. Where do you think this is headed?

KAYYEM: I don't think it's headed anywhere good. Under no theory of how we were supposed to fight this virus is it the time to open up as dramatically and as widely as some of these states are. In particular, some of the southern states, which are showing huge

inclines in new cases, let alone deaths, if we are to believe their death count, are trending upward and yet they're opening up,

So it's important that the American public, that employers and institution heads probably act more cautiously than a lot of their governors. And I think you're going to begin to see that.

We've already heard of major employers saying, you know, in the case of Google, we're going to stay home, basically, for the rest of the year. In the case of Amazon, at least through the summer because it's just too soon.

And there are good ways to open, and there are bad ways to open, and some of these states are being quite careless in their planning.

CABRERA: Just because states are reopening, doesn't necessarily mean residents will be confident to head out. We have the latest polling showing the vast majority of Americans are worried the states are lifting restrictions too soon.

Juliette, why do you think there's such a disconnect right now between public sentiment and the actions of public officials?

KAYYEM: Yes, so we're calling this the confidence index and it is one of the most amazing and consistent aspects of this sort of coronavirus response.

As the president was claiming everyone wants to get out, which is true, we want to get out in some ways, we want to get out sort of, you know, cautiously, the polling has almost consistently been that people are worried, they are not going to spend money at places like restaurants or recreational areas or concerts, that they would prefer to stay home until there's some competent response, some ability to know that they will be protected.

Look, we can protect vulnerable populations. We can try to isolate people who are sick. But the government has failed. The federal government has failed in its ability to have a strong testing and tracing system. We don't have a treatment yet. And I think the American public is seeing that.

So you're going to see a confidence gap -- we see it in Europe as well -- where governors can do what they want in terms of opening up. Employers, institution heads, and individuals are making risk calculations on their own, and they are being much more cautious than the public sector.

CABRERA: Well, hopefully, every individual really takes seriously their responsibility to do what they can.

KAYYEM: Yes.

CABRERA: Juliette, I've got to run. We're out of time for today but always --

(CROSSTALK)

KAYYEM: Thanks for your patience.

CABRERA: No, thank you. We appreciate you sticking around.

Demonstrators gathering in Georgia today demanding justice for Ahmaud Arbery, an unarmed black man who was shot and killed while jogging through a neighborhood. This was back in February.

This was the scene in Brunswick, Georgia, earlier. People on motorcycles showing their support for Arbery's family.

His mother also sharing this message with Don Lemon last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WANDA COOPER, MOTHER OF AHMAUD ARBERY: This weekend's going to be extremely hard because I had Ahmaud back in 1994 on Mother's Day.

I think that they were actually taking the word from murderers. They took their word, took what they said, and they had not planned to make an arrest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Ahmaud Arbery was killed during an altercation with two men who allegedly chased him in a pickup truck while he was jogging. It wasn't until after the following video was released.

And I have to warn you, this video is graphic.

As you watch there, keep in mind the men blamed for Arbery's death were arrested just this week. Officials had this video from day one back in February. But as we mentioned, those arrests happened just a couple days ago.

[16:40:01]

Now the suspects are father and son, Gregory and Travis McMichael. Gregory is a former police officer. And according to a police report, he told officers that he thought Arbery looked like a person suspected in a series of recent break-ins in that area.

A Glenn County policeman lieutenant tells CNN the last known burglary in that neighborhood happened on January 1st, more than seven weeks before the February 23rd incident.

Joining us now, former Philadelphia Police Commissioner, Charles Ramsey. Back in 2014, he was chosen by then-President Obama to head a task force on 21st century policing. Also with us, Van Jones, CNN political commentator and CEO of the Reform Alliance, dedicated to social change in the U.S. justice system.

Commissioner, how do you feel, knowing that one of these suspects is a former police officer? And do you think that had anything to do with how this was handled initially? CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I think it had everything

to do with how it was handled initially. This is not a case that required Sherlock Holmes to solve. I mean, it's pretty clear as to what took place. Obviously, video is only part of an investigation. You need statements and other types of evidence, but this is not a complicated case.

He's a former police officer. His old agency should not have handled or even tried to handle that case. It should have been turned over, in my opinion, within the first 24 hours. It should have been turned over to GBI to handle.

This just is not a good situation at all. In my opinion, that police chief and everyone associated with that have a lot to answer to because this is just wrong. It just should not have happened.

CABRERA: Now, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation is taking over this case from local authorities. The director, Vick Reynolds, of the GBI, says that video was a very important piece of evidence. And just to think that video was in the hands of local authorities on the day of the shooting.

Van, we also learned today, the man who recorded that video is now receiving threats after authorities announced he's being investigated following the killing. I just wonder what your thoughts are on this.

VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, you know, our thoughts and our prayers just go out over and over again to this family. It's just horrific.

And you asked the question, as an African-American man, as a father of two black sons, what is OK for my children to do? What are they allowed to do?

You know, the virus is killing people who have preexisting conditions because they're not in good shape. People, like, well, let me get my fitness on and go get in shape. What is all right for an African- American man to do in this country if you can't even go jogging without being murdered?

Also, I think it's very good that the state authorities have stepped in but it is going to be tough to get a fair trial in that community, because this, obviously, did not disturb the conscience of anybody because this thing has been going on and on.

I think the federal authorities should also step in. There needs to be a civil rights investigation opened up by the Department of Justice. I was glad that Donald Trump -- President Trump made some kind comments for the family. I think that was very important. That needs to be followed up with real action.

The idea that just because there's been arrests made, that means nothing. There could be a -- you got to have a very determined prosecutor to get an actual conviction in that community. And you need the states -- you need the state and the federal government involved immediately. CABRERA: Van, part of the outrage is that, while this father and son

have been arrested, they won't be charged with a hate crime. They are being charged with murder and additional crimes, but there's no hate crime law even in the state of Georgia. Ahmaud's father is calling this a modern-day lynching.

Is it time to updates the laws?

JONES: It's time to update the laws. And listen, there's no -- there's no explanation. There's no excuse.

Can you imagine if an African-American father and son just hunted down a white guy jogging in the neighborhood and shot him down on video? How -- I mean, it wouldn't even take 20 minutes for that situation to be remedied because you just can't do that.

If you're a former cop, you can't do it. If you're a cop, you can't just go and grab somebody with no probable cause except that they exist and shoot them.

And so, I'm actually happy some conservative groups are stepping forward as well, conservative commentators, and saying, this is a cold-blooded murder. There's no excuse for it.

But listen, this has touched a nerve that I think is not going to calm down until there's not just an arrest but a trial and a conviction.

CABRERA: Commissioner, I want to turn to the issue of policing amid the coronavirus pandemic. New York City Mayor Bill De Blasio is condemning another troubling video. It shows an NYPD officer tackling and punching a man who approached during a social distancing arrest. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look, look, look, he ain't even do nothing.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn't even do nothing.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look. He didn't even do nothing.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He didn't even do nothing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (EXPLETIVE DELETED), (EXPLETIVE DELETED), (EXPLETIVE DELETED.

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[16:45:15]

CABRERA: That's tough to watch.

Data from New York City shows 81 percent of people issued summons for social distancing violations in the past six weeks or so are black or Latino -- 81 percent.

Commissioner, why do you think it's black and Latinos who are being overwhelmingly ticketed?

RAMSEY: Well, first of all, let me start by saying that, in my opinion, if I had still been a police commissioner, I would have challenged the very notion of enforcing, whether it's citation, tickets, physical arrests or whatever, unless it was an absolute last resort.

I mean, this is a public health issue. You're telling people to stay apart and not congregate for their own good as well as the good of others. This isn't a crime we're talking about here. And it's not being equally enforced. And this is something you can anticipate.

If you're going to issue summons, it doesn't take much to figure out that at some point that you better check every single day who's getting cited, and is there disparity? And if it is, correct it right then. Don't wait until it gets to a point where it's 80 percent.

I mean, there was a video from New York where there were people in Central Park, I believe it was, sunbathing when we had decent weather in this part of the country. I didn't see any arrests taking place there, and they were predominantly white.

I mean, these are the kinds of things that give police a bad rap.

But just to begin with, this is a public health issue. It's not really a policing issue, although police have a role. But enforcement should not be the first option. It should be simply to tell people, hey, listen, this stuff is dangerous. You need to stand apart. You need to whatever to protect yourself and protect others.

But getting into tussles with people over this, it's crazy.

CABRERA: I want to ask you about enforcement in a moment.

But I want to bring Van into the conversation.

We know the death rates of blacks and Latinos during this pandemic have outpaced the deaths of white persons. It's not just that. The data shows communities of color are dealing with higher jobless rates than white Americans, 16.7 percent for blacks, 18.9 percent among Hispanics, according to the April numbers.

Van, what needs to be done?

JONES: Well, I mean, this virus is going after our health and our wealth in ways that are pretty shocking. If you look at African- Americans and Latinos, they're disproportionately impoverished in this country, therefore, are in places where you can't easily social distance, whether you talk about housing projects or homeless shelters or jails or detention centers, So that section's getting hit.

We're disproportionately the essential workers. So people in the grocery stores, the nurses, et cetera, so we're getting hit there. And our wealthiest people are in sports and entertainment, so they're also out of work because you can't have a concert or be on a movie set or have a game. So, this is very, very tough.

And I think we've got to be able to say this is no longer about playing the race card. This is playing the data card. The data is showing you've got hot spots in terms of the virus, lethality in certain communities. You've got to prioritize those communities.

You also have hot spots financially and economically where some communities are getting hurt worse than others, so you got to prioritize those communities.

That's not playing the race card. That's just playing the fairness card and the data card.

But every lawmaker's got to take this seriously. Otherwise, you're going to have some communities falling so far behind that it's going to be impossible for them to catch up.

CABRERA: Van Jones and Commissioner Charles Ramsey, thank you both so much for the thoughtful conversation.

We'll be right back.

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[16:53:21]

CABRERA: As the debate continues over how to reopen, should states reopen, there's something interesting happening in South Dakota.

And I want to bring in Natasha Chen, who's been keeping an eye on all these different states and developments.

We're seeing a standoff brewing over coronavirus checkpoints in South Dakota, on state highways and U.S. highways there. What is the latest on this showdown? Fill us in.

NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, this is about the Oglala and the Cheyenne River Sioux tribes, two tribes that have checkpoints that the governor wants them to stop doing. And she issued a letter asking them to stop this within 48 hours.

And the latest is that we see a statement from the Cheyenne River Sioux tribe saying that they are following health officials guidelines and, quote, "I regretfully decline your request."

That's in response to the governor. The statement also says that their actions are about saving lives

rather than saving face.

To give you some context, South Dakota's a state where the governor never officially issued a stay-at-home order. But the tribes have been very strict about stay-at-home and curfews.

They are allowing their reservation members to leave the reservation for essential activities. But they have to fill out a questionnaire when they leave and come back.

And that goes for people who are not from the reservation. If they are to come on to the reservation for essential activities, they also have to go through a health screening of sorts. And this is based on the tribe's social media post about those checkpoints.

So, they are definitely taking matters into their own hands about the health and safety of their members. The governor is at odds with that -- Ana?

[16:55:02]

CABRERA: OK, Natasha Chen, thank you for the update. Please keep us posts.

There are new worries for parents related to COVID-19 this weekend. A number of children are now sick with a syndrome thought to be linked to the coronavirus and three young people have died. We'll have the latest just ahead live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[17:00:06]

CABRERA: You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. Thanks for staying with me. I'm Ana Cabrera, in New York.

More businesses, restaurants, services and leisure activities opening to Americans this weekend.