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Cuomo Prime Time
GOP Senators Alexander & Romney Counter Trump's Testing Claims; Fauci: We Don't Have "Total Control Of This Outbreak"; GBI Autopsy Finds Ahmaud Arbery Was Shot Three Times. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 12, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: -Celia Yap-Banago was a nurse who worked for nearly 40 years at the same hospital in Kansas City, Missouri.
When the pandemic hit, Celia told her family not to worry because she worked on a different floor from where the Coronavirus patients were being seen. But after one of her patients showed symptoms, Celia became infected.
She originally came from the Philippines. She was a devoted mom, who never missed her son's baseball and basketball games. She loved being a nurse, was often a mentor to many of the younger nurses that she worked with. Celia Yap-Banago was 69 years old.
Our thoughts go out to their families and all the families of those who have lost loved ones in this pandemic and whose lives have been changed by this pandemic.
The news continues. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: All right, thank you, Anderson. Appreciate it, as always.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
Have you heard how many more deaths the key White House model says reopening will cause? The number just between now and August is nauseating. Fauci and the CDC Head say we don't have this under control and that reopening may cause outbreaks.
States are begging for money to test and trace, Red state governors as well, echoing the concerns, begging to be able to use federal funds to help in their own way, testing and tracing. Well when will this President and his pals respond to desperate times with desperate measures?
California is. They just made a surprise move, ordering all State University campuses to cancel most in-person classes for the fall. Is that too much? Is it enough? We'll discuss.
Also, we have another key guest in the Georgia homicide case, the man who owns that house that's under construction, the one that Ahmaud Arbery has been shown in, walking slowly, surreptitiously through the house in his final hours. The apparent house that a recused prosecutor suggested Arbery burglarized.
It's time for the truth. What do you say? Let's get after it.
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C. CUOMO: 10,000 more people will die potentially from reopening too soon. What a question we have to ask ourselves! Is that worth it?
Now, if you don't like the number, complain to the White House. The key Coronavirus model often cited by them projects that by just August, we'll go from the 82,000-plus lives we've already lost to maybe 147,000, due in large part to reopening.
Now, this estimate is nearly double the forecast of 74,000 from just two weeks ago. 10,000 more than predicted just over the weekend. Why? You know why. Because that's what happens when you stop socially distancing and isolating. Is this what prevailing looks like?
Even Republicans had to admit that we still have not responded, we have not seized the moment when it comes to testing, and that testing is absolutely essential to building the trust we need to reopen.
A Republican-led Senate Committee did not perpetuate this President's poppycock.
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SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R-TN): What our country has done so far on testing is impressive, but not nearly enough.
All roads back to work and school go through testing.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): We treaded water during February and March. And - and, as a result, by March 6th, the U.S. had completed just 2,000 tests whereas South Korea had conducted more than 140,000 tests. So partially, as a result of that, they have 256 deaths, and we have almost 80,000 deaths. I find our testing record nothing to celebrate whatsoever.
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C. CUOMO: Now ordinarily, Lamar Alexander, Head of the Committee and, you know, Mitt Romney, the Party's one-time choice for President, would be believed, but not now, not now. Trump's grip on his Party strangulates any gasps of truth even from senior members.
Despite being wrong consistently, misleading consistently, and outright lying too often, most Republicans in our new CNN poll still say they trust Trump. If only we had the herd immunity to COVID-19 that so many of these folks have to the truth.
Only Fauci, Dr. Fauci, approaches Trump-ish trust with the Right. Will they listen to him when he says something that this President has never even come close to suggesting?
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DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: My concern is that we will start to see little spikes that might turn into outbreaks.
And if you think that we have it completely under control, we don't.
The right direction does not mean we have, by any means, total control of this outbreak.
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C. CUOMO: CDC Head says same thing. The proposition is how can we beat the virus if we can't even get on the same page about how important the fight is, if we can't even agree on what it takes to win?
Let's bring in Dr. Sanjay Gupta and Andy Slavitt.
First, just a slap in the face of reality for us, fellas. Sanjay, 10,000 deaths is the approximated cost of reopening, as of now. Have you ever seen America make a choice like this before?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: No. No, I don't think most people alive today have ever seen America make a choice like this. And, you know, I mean I hate to say it, Chris. But, you know, these - these numbers, these models are all over the place. That might even be low.
I mean, you know, when we saw the numbers sort of jump up in this particular model, they went to whatever, 134,000 or something like that, and that was not even taking into account all the states that were - that are opening.
We know that more people are going to get infected as a result of this reopening and more people are going to probably need to be hospitalized. And obviously, sadly, more people will die.
I think that that's, you know, this is this - Dr. Fauci and the Task Force have been consistent on this all along. We have these criteria. They're not perfect. No matter when you open, there will be new infections. But here's how to do it as safely as possible.
Those really seem to have been almost completely thrown out of the window at this point. It's baffling, Chris.
C. CUOMO: Andy, what do you make of the idea that it has not changed the stubborn resistance to having to do anything more that it's been long enough, even with that number put out there as what it will mean, "If you do it now, 10,000 more may die." Doesn't change the calculus, why?
ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER ACTING ADMINISTRATOR, CENTERS FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID SERVICES, HOST, "IN THE BUBBLE" PODCAST: Well Chris, I think there were some clues in this, in what's going on in the Senate right now.
First of all, I want to commend the Senate Health Committee for a very constructive hearing, really not about politics, but about the issues at hand.
But the tell is this. Mitch McConnell is asking for one specific thing in order to get a bill negotiated that he sends to the President's desk. And that one particular thing is liability for all employers, if the economy reopens again, and people die, or get hurt. That's the one thing he wants.
And I think we should step back and understand that what they're effectively saying is "Open the country not at their risk. Come back to work. But it's not going to be on me. If you get injured, if you get sick, if you get hurt, that's going to be on you."
And that shows how much confidence they have in what the consequences will be if the economy reopens. They just don't want to pay for it.
C. CUOMO: Sanjay, what do you think of that?
GUPTA: That's - that's interesting. I had not heard that before, Andy.
I mean, you know, that - that is - it's - it's hard to think about and imagine that way that people are sort of already thinking about the liability of this, acknowledging that people are going to get sick, and die, and now just trying to figure out who's to blame for this.
I mean it's tough. I get it. People want the economy to reopen. But to think that far in advance about this, as opposed to just thinking about trying to prevent these deaths, I think is it's - it's jarring, a little bit, to hear that, Andy.
C. CUOMO: Well I'll tell you what though. Let's stay very sharp in terms of what we know of the mood in the country right now.
Do people want to reopen? Yes. Do they want to reopen, Andy, if they do not get the confidence of testing and tracing to understand what is safe and what to base their risk analysis on? Every poll says no. So, what do we know about the country?
GUPTA: Right.
C. CUOMO: And is Trump really in step with where Americans are?
SLAVITT: Well look, first of all, I think generally speaking, people want to reopen safely.
C. CUOMO: Right.
SLAVITT: And people are in a bad position either way. And everyone gets that.
But here - here's the point. I think maybe the less important question to me, at least, is what do people in the country want, and how can we lead people because we know that there's going to be conflict.
We know that all of us, including those of us who know that the right thing to do is to stay home, are going to get stir-crazy. We're going to wish the circumstances were different.
And it's at those moments that we need leaders to help guide us there to pass legislation that supports us, to put in place testing and tracing and isolation, so that we can feel safer.
GUPTA: Right.
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SLAVITT: Just basically, although to tell us that we're doing something good, instead of to play into the maybe a populist rhetoric or populist sentiment out there, and trying to make people happy, even though it's going to lead to people dying.
C. CUOMO: It's an interesting juxtaposition, Sanjay that the President's thing is about being anti-elitist. His buddies over on Fox state TV, anti-elitist.
10,000 deaths are the price tag that their model puts on this. Talk about being elitist!
If that's OK, who do you think those 10,000 people are going to be, who's getting affected the most? The working class, the Brown working class. Who's most afraid of reopening too soon? The Brown working class. Who's getting sick the most? The Brown working class. Who's dying the most? They are.
It's nothing elitist about that. It's everything that's elitist.
GUPTA: Yes. I mean this is - this is obviously the - one of the - one of the great tragedies here is that people who are keeping the country running, making it so that we can all actually be - be able to be safe at home with - with delivery, with transportation, the hospital workers, the frontline workers are predominantly Black and Brown America.
I mean, you know, you look at - I'm from Michigan. You know, 14 percent African-American population, 42 percent of the deaths in that State are African or Black or Brown America. So, it's obviously disproportionately affecting certain segments of the population.
I do think though what Andy said is again very interesting, this idea that, you know, everyone's talking about the vaccine, everyone's talking about the therapeutics.
If we have good testing in place, because people are going to go stir- crazy, they're going to want to get out, even people with the best of intentions, if we can start providing some sense of confidence that they are not harboring the virus in their own bodies, if people around them are not harboring the virus, it's going to make it at least psychologically, you know, more palatable for people, and obviously, less likely for them to get sick.
I don't know what the right amount of testing is. I think it's like one of those things where you'll know it when you see it. But it's going to be enough to actually get people the confidence to start going back out because they're going to, at some point. Just kind of make sure we do it as safely as possible.
C. CUOMO: We just have to be clear about what the "It" is. The "It" that you will see is people making risk assessments for themselves.
GUPTA: That's right.
C. CUOMO: You know, America is not sheeple, you know. They take information. They're very savvy about what's in their interests. And the only reason to not jump on testing is to hide the truth.
And the mistake is that it winds up being something where this Administration is going to be hoisted on its own petard, the French expression of being blown up by the own bomb that they're carrying, because they're hiding from testing, because they don't want people to know the truth, because they believe the truth will make it harder to reopen, when in fact the opposite is the truth.
If people know the numbers, they'll make their own risk assessments, and the American people are a ballsy people. They will go out and do what they can. They'll take risk, if they're not being played with. And right now, they know they're being played.
Sanjay, Andy, thank you very much for keeping it real for people on this show.
Now, Dr. Fauci--
GUPTA: You got it, thank you.
C. CUOMO: --very cautious today. Why? Because he has to fear the unknown, not pander to it for advantage. Asked about schools, colleges, reopening in the fall, we know we have to do it, if we want to go back to work. How can you go back to work if your kids are still at home?
California took a big step today ordering State campuses closed for now, college, but still a huge move. What will it mean? And also, let's look at it. Was it the right move or too much?
Another very valued doctor and the Head of the Cal State System, the perfect guests, here next.
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C. CUOMO: Back to school in the fall. That will be the big moment.
Now, college students, their semester may look a lot like the semester that just ended, if they go to school in California because that State, today, canceled most in-person classes at the 23 campuses in their State University System. This is a big move.
The man who is at the Head of the University System is Timothy White. He is the Chancellor of the California State University System. He made the announcement today.
We also have Dr. William Schaffner, not only a leading Infectious Disease Specialist and friend of show, also a Professor at Vanderbilt, and on the Task Force to determine that prestigious University's school plan.
Gentlemen, thank you for making yourselves available on such an important night.
TIMOTHY WHITE, CHANCELLOR, CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM: Happy to be here, Chris.
C. CUOMO: So, Chancellor--
DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, PROFESSOR, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER, CDC ADVISER: Good to be with you.
C. CUOMO: --reservations, and if not, what do you believe made this the right move at this time?
WHITE: Well, let me be clear. The California State University actually remains open. And we're steadfast in our commitment to inclusive excellence. And we stand ready for the next academic year as well. It would just be different in some ways, but not in all ways.
And at the front of our list is the health and well-being of our students and employees. It's the most important factor in any decision we make, based on science, and data, and public health advice, and medical advice.
And we're announcing the planning, the planning horizon now, because we want to give the maximum time and flexibility to our students, new students and ongoing students, as well as an opportunity between now and the fall for a more robust professional training to our faculty and staff, not only for the instructional aspects, but also for the vitally-important academic support and - and student support services.
C. CUOMO: Give me - give me a little check--
WHITE: So--
C. CUOMO: --give me a little context though, Chancellor, on two levels.
WHITE: OK.
C. CUOMO: First, why was it in the best interest of the students to not have them be in-person classes to do it now with different technological means, the way we're doing? Why do you believe that it is necessary to keep it that way in the fall?
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WHITE: We're a large University, over 500,000 students and about 55,000 employees, across an 800-mile swath of California. And, you know, we're concerned with the epidemiology of the disease, and what is forecast not only currently.
It's starting to stabilize a bit in California, have been in different regions, but not all. But as we look to the fall term, we see another wave coming that coupled with influenza, perhaps will be even more difficult in the moment now.
So, if you have 500,000-plus people in close proximity, on a daily basis, vibrantly interacting with each other, that's not conducive to mitigating the spread of the disease.
And we can't change the biology of COVID-19. But what we can do is change our behaviors individually, and collectively, as a university, to minimize the current spread and the morbidity and mortality associated with that.
C. CUOMO: Chancellor, what does it mean for the employees? You said 55,000, somewhere between 52,000 workers and 55,000 workers, depending on how you want to count heads. What does this mean for them? Do they keep their jobs? I mean how do you sustain that population?
WHITE: It takes - it takes the brilliance of our faculty and staff to deliver courses using virtual technology, as it does to do it in- person. So, we have simply pivoted the venue, if you will, from all of it being in-person to some of it being in-person, based on a set of criteria, but a lot of it being done virtually.
But it still takes the brilliance of faculty staff, the technology, IT folks are doing an amazing work, in order to deliver, and engage our students with this new reality, as we pass through this - this pandemic, which isn't going to last a month or two, or even for another six months or 12 months.
This is an approach where we think about this over the course of the next year or two years, how do we do our part as the largest four-year university in the country to mitigate and still make progress to degree for our students, and have them meet their career objectives sooner rather than later.
C. CUOMO: Well it's good. I mean I asked you the second part of that question because, you know, you're such a big job base for local communities on lower levels, you know, underneath the teaching staff. It's important to know that you're taking them into consideration also, in terms of job security. Thank you for that.
All right now, Doctor, the burden on you, Dr. Schaffner, is defending the proposition, all right? People will hear what California is doing, and they will say, "Liberal lunacy! This is nuts! COVID's on the way down. It's not as bad as you guys told us it would be.
Things are plateauing and going in the right direction in many parts of the country. We're reopening. We don't know about any wave in the fall. This is way too much way too soon."
What do you say?
SCHAFFNER: Well what I say to that is that actually the Chancellor has articulated a very conservative position.
He's taking into account the solid forecasts of all of us, who are Infectious Disease Doctors and in public health that there will be a substantial surge of COVID in the fall.
And, of course, all of the issues that he's articulated, colleges across the country are thinking about right now, fretting about, trying to make their own decisions. It's true in my own University.
I'm a member of one of several Task Forces that are addressing all the issues and more that Chancellor White mentioned. We haven't made our decision yet. But it's not an easy decision. As with all of these things, I say there's no right, no wrong decision, only tough decisions.
C. CUOMO: The numbers that came out today, the model that the White House often cites from the University of Washington Research projecting that reopening now, because of the necessary reduction in social isolating, which obviously will be needed to reopen, 10,000 more lives is the current estimate of how many may be lost, in addition to the former projections because of reopening.
What do you make of that proposition as a choice for America?
SCHAFFNER: It's an awful choice because on the other side is all the financial depredation that's been going on, the cultural and social disruption. So, it's in a - an exceedingly difficult balancing act. And it's very important, as we go forward, to look at what the local circumstances are.
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In our circumstance, looking at what's happening in Nashville and Tennessee, how well are we controlling this outbreak, that applies to institutions across the country, as each of them is making their own decisions, watching very carefully, their own capacity to respond to positive students, and all of the issues related to student housing, dining, teaching the students, all the issues in managing a University, all of those things come to the fore, as you try to make these very, very tough decisions
C. CUOMO: And as Dr. Fauci added today, this idea that younger people are immune, he said there's no basis for that in science.
Chancellor White, a really important day, and I know it's a trying day, so thank you for making your case to the American people on PRIME TIME. I appreciate it. And good luck with the decision going forward.
Dr. Schaffner, as always, thank you for the value added to the show.
SCHAFFNER: My pleasure.
C. CUOMO: All right.
WHITE: Thank you, Chris.
C. CUOMO: The other big story that we have to stay on, Ahmaud Arbery's killing, all right? We caught it on video, right? And if that video hadn't come out, who knows if you would have ever heard about this?
But this is the other video. You keep seeing it. I'm running it in real time. You keep seeing it slowed down more, slow him down, keep repeating him going into this construction site, why? Because this is why they had to kill him. This is why they had to take the 25-year- old's life. Look what he's doing!
Let's look at what he's doing. His family's attorney says the video inside a home under construction just proves that they were unjustified because no matter how much you slow it down, no matter how much you show it to you, what do you see him do that justifies what they did?
Let's talk to the man who owns that empty home. What did he believe? What is his experience there? What does he think about how that videotape is being used?
His perspective, key, next.
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(END VIDEO CLIP) C. CUOMO: All right, we have an important new guest tonight in this Georgia killing case, all right? We're following the investigation of the shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery.
As you know, there is now a second piece of video under scrutiny. It's surveillance footage showing the 25-year-old walking through a construction site that same day. Could you call this trespassing? Yes.
Could you call it justification for what the accused did, the McMichaels? I don't know how. The McMichaels, the accused in this case, told police seeing Arbery on surveillance footage, were they talking about this, triggered their actions.
Does the owner of the home, Mr. Larry English, agree with that? He joins us now alongside his Attorney, Beth Graddy.
I'd also like to note, the team, we're working all the relevant parties every day, Georgia Governor, Brian Kemp, Lieutenant Governor, Geoff Duncan, GBI Director, Vic Reynolds, State Attorney General, Chris Carr, the D.A.'s Office, the Glynn County Police Department.
All have either said "No, thank you," just declined, won't respond, except for D.A. Jackie Johnson. They sent us a statement to say her Office acted appropriately under the circumstances, but no comment.
We're going to stay on it because we have to know what happened.
So, Mr. English, thank you so much for taking this opportunity. I know it's not convenient. I know it is frightening to be in the crosshairs of this situation, for you and your family, so thank you for taking the time.
LARRY ENGLISH, OWNS HOME UNDER CONSTRUCTION: You're welcome.
C. CUOMO: And Counselor, you as well, thank you for making this possible. Mr. English, what is--
ELIZABETH GRADDY, LARRY ENGLISH'S ATTORNEY: Thank you for having us.
C. CUOMO: --what is your feeling about the fact that surveillance video of your home in construction has become relevant, and used the way you believe it is being used in this situation?
ENGLISH: Well, first off, I would like to say that this is a tragedy, and I'm deeply sorry, sorry for the family and their loss. And also, it's for my family's loss, peace, it's been destroyed, when we were just innocent bystanders in the situation.
As far as the video goes, I don't want it to be put out, and misused, and misinterpreted for people to think that I had accused of Mr. Arbery of stealing or robbery because I never did.
C. CUOMO: You never filed any report? You never called 9-1-1 about this video?
ENGLISH: The video of February 23rd, I made no calls. C. CUOMO: Do you believe that Arbery stole anything from your house that day?
ENGLISH: No, whatsoever.
C. CUOMO: Now, the McMichaels told police, in the police report here, that he had been seen, Arbery had been seen on surveillance video. Did you share this video with the McMichaels?
ENGLISH: No, not whatsoever.
C. CUOMO: Did they know of any past incidents at your construction site?
ENGLISH: I'm not - I'm not sure about that.
C. CUOMO: Nothing you told them about?
ENGLISH: No.
C. CUOMO: Were you aware of any string of burglaries that they say were going on in that neighborhood because we can't find police records of any string of burglaries in the neighborhood?
ENGLISH: I was.
C. CUOMO: And what did you know about what was going on in the neighborhood?
ENGLISH: I only knew secondhand information that maybe somewhere in the neighborhood of January that a vehicle had been entered, and some guns taken out of it.
C. CUOMO: Are you aware that it was the McMichaels who filed that report?
ENGLISH: No.
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C. CUOMO: That's what police records show, according to our reporting on this, that they had reported it. Do you have any relationship with the McMichaels? Do you have any feel for these gentlemen?
ENGLISH: No.
C. CUOMO: Have you reported in the past, things that happened at your construction site?
ENGLISH: I have.
C. CUOMO: What kinds of things have happened and who do you think did it?
ENGLISH: The only thing that happened was my cameras would notify me. I would be two hours away. And my cameras might - would notify me, and let me know somebody was on the property.
C. CUOMO: And what have you seen on your property before? How common is it for people to enter the site?
ENGLISH: Not very, I mean, not very common at all, in the daytime, didn't have very much traffic other than subcontractors and people working there, and that would have been about a year.
C. CUOMO: And didn't you report though that you believe something had been taken from the house, but you couldn't identify who did it?
ENGLISH: No.
C. CUOMO: So, you've--
ENGLISH: That's a false accusation.
C. CUOMO: Oh, good, good to know, thank you very much. So, you never reported anything about any fishing equipment or anything like that?
ENGLISH: The instance with the fishing equipment has got blown out of proportion. That was out of a boat, not out of the structure. And I'm not exactly sure when or where that happened.
The boat was transported from Brunswick to a location to where we live, two hours away, and I never filed a report on that because I don't know for sure exactly where it happened.
C. CUOMO: Boy, you're right. That is getting thrown all over the place as a potential other situation that Arbery may have been involved in. And just to be clear, you never filed it, you've never accused him, and you don't have any reason to believe that Ahmaud Arbery had anything to do with that?
ENGLISH: That is correct.
C. CUOMO: What do you think of the fact that one of your neighbors saw Ahmaud trespassing on your property? And it is fair.
I mean you have Counsel here, although I don't - you know, you don't need it. It's great to have you here, Beth, thank you for being here, and you're free to speak whenever you want. It's certainly different than the interview I had last night.
But you could call it trespassing. He didn't have a right to be on the property. And yet, he was there. One of your neighbors called and said that he took off from there. How do you feel about them making a report to 9-1-1 about what they saw with Arbery leaving the property?
ENGLISH: I really don't know exactly how to answer that question, you know. You know, everybody in the neighborhood kind of looks out for each other's property. It's a small tight-knit community.
C. CUOMO: You know, Counselor, let me get you in here for a second.
You gave us a statement saying that, from Larry, just to understand the reckoning of his perspective on this, "When Larry saw the photos of Mr. Arbery, the - his first impression was that Arbery was not the man captured on video inside the house on February 23rd," and that he said that to the neighbor.
GRADDY: Yes. My understanding is that when Larry got the - the alert that the video had come into his phone, it took him about 20 minutes to look at it.
And when he did, he called a neighbor, just a couple of houses down, and said, "You know, I - my video is showing someone's in the house. Is there someone there?" And the neighbor told him "Well someone was, but he's been killed."
And so, you know, by the time Larry even saw the video, Mr. Arbery had been killed. And I think it was pretty soon after that that Larry saw some photos of Mr. Arbery, and he had not known him before.
And when he saw those photos, he did not believe it looked like the man who is in the video from February 23rd, and then subsequently we heard that - that probably was him.
But my understanding is Larry didn't think it resembled him. But Larry can speak to that if - if I've gotten that wrong, but that's my understanding.
C. CUOMO: That squares with your reckoning, right, Mr. English?
ENGLISH: Yes, correct.
C. CUOMO: And as I was trying to establish with Roddie Bryan, last night, he's implicated directly in the police report by the McMichaels. So, I was giving him an opportunity, or at least trying to, to explain why they would see him as part of this.
Similarly tonight, I wanted to afford you of the opportunity to distance yourself. And, just to be clear, you've said you don't know the McMichaels?
ENGLISH: I do not.
C. CUOMO: Did you--
ENGLISH: I know - I know of Travis. I only know him of just one introduction, and that was a very short brief introduction.
C. CUOMO: But you had nothing to do with what triggered their interest in Mr. Arbery on February 23rd?
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GRADDY: He wasn't even there that day.
ENGLISH: I had no interest.
GRADDY: He was two hours away. C. CUOMO: He was - you weren't there? You didn't speak to him on the phone? You didn't give them access to the surveillance video? You didn't contact them and tell them what had been seen at your home?
ENGLISH: No.
C. CUOMO: Mr. English, I appreciate you taking this opportunity. Because we're not getting anything from the authorities we're having to figure out, and look, this is the job of journalism, who knew what, who didn't know what.
And it's very important, especially because your home has become a focal point of this, to get your perspective on what you did, and what you didn't do. You've been very helpful in that regard, Mr. English.
And I'm sorry for you to be involved in any of this. I'm sure it's not easy for your family either. And I'm sure the Arberys will appreciate your condolences. Thank you, Mr. English.
GRADDY: Thank you. Thank you for having us.
ENGLISH: Thank you.
C. CUOMO: And Counselor, thank you for having the courtesy to make this happen and trusting that it would be about the truth, appreciate it. All right.
GRADDY: Good night.
C. CUOMO: Good night.
Now, there's more information here. Arbery's autopsy is out. Well why do we need that? We know what happened. But how it happened, in terms of detail and sequencing, is not going to be as simple as you assume.
I guarantee you the autopsy will be a factor in testing the accused reckoning that they were attacked, OK? So, we're going to look at that autopsy through that lens, and whether or not there was prosecutorial misconduct early on, not just inaction, but bad action.
Let's do Cuomo's Court. We have Laura Coates, next.
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C. CUOMO: Today, an autopsy from State investigators was revealed, and tells us that Ahmaud Arbery died of multiple gunshot - shotgun wounds, three shots to be exact.
Let's bring in a better mind, former Federal Crimes Prosecutor, Laura Coates, always a pleasure, thank you.
All right, so let's put our head to this, the autopsy. Well we know how he died. But there can be very important information to use as a prosecutor. What will this autopsy mean?
LAURA COATES, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SIRIUSXM HOST, "THE LAURA COATES SHOW", ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: Well, first of all, how disturbing we know there was a shotgun in close range, where they say at least what, 13 shotgun pellet exited his body, and 11 were found in the wounds, two in his chest, and one on his wrist.
The reason that's important is because you want to look at the idea of what transpired. Was he in a struggle?
The idea of having his wrist be injured, was it a defensive wound, trying to block his body? Was it of him actually trying to get the gun away from himself? How close range was involved?
Also what's important to look at, of course, is the number of shots that were fired. The number of shots being fired can indicate to you just how much of a act of self-defense was being claimed, and whether it's meritorious for Travis McMichael?
You would think the idea of whether it's a gun that has a rapid sort of trigger function, or one that requires you to load each time, or one that requires you to do in succession?
It's all very important to understand just what was at play and whether this was somebody trying to get away or somebody who was in intent on actually harming and killing, ultimately, Ahmaud Arbery.
C. CUOMO: The ballistics analysis may show that if this kind of weapon had to be pumped to re-fired, or something like that it shows more intentionality.
And then the defense, the idea that's out there of "Well it doesn't matter, it's a stand-your-ground State, you know, it's all fine." Is the analysis that simple?
COATES: No, it's not. First of all, in order for it to be a stand- your-ground State, well you have to first understand whether it's applicable here.
And remember, it goes down to foundation, this idea of even in self- defense, or stand-your-ground, you cannot provoke the circumstances that lead to the aggression, and then play the victim card.
The law is there in order to ensure that people who have been victimized are not required to retreat, are not required to run away.
But, in the scenario we're playing out here, in the scenario you're seeing in the videotape, and the footage, as it's being explained, is there - the victim in this particular instance is Ahmaud Arbery. The idea of him standing his ground would be the actual inquiry of him trying to run away.
But as far as Travis McMichael, it seems that he not only provoked it, he pursued and hunted him, and then is now trying to, I understand, claim that it was wholly self-defense. It's inconsistent with what the law actually says and stands for.
C. CUOMO: Now, the other big thing that we're hunting down here is whether or not the McMichaels were fabricating their basis of suspicion, not that it would help them. But the idea of--
COATES: Right.
C. CUOMO: --they saw him on surveillance video.
Well Larry English says he never shared the surveillance video or anything about it with the McMichaels. There was someone else who called 9-1-1 on Arbery for trespassing, arguably, in Larry English's house.
That now leads us down to pretty much only that person who could have told the McMichaels about what happened there. As with Roddie, last night, that they say Roddie was helping them essentially, he tried to angle him off, Roddie's lawyer says that's not true.
How fundamental to this case is the basis that the McMichaels acted upon and the truth of it?
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COATES: It's fundamental to show just how inappropriate their actions would be.
If their basis was that they heard about somebody who was committing a crime in the - in neighborhood, and the tragedy of that interview you just gave with Larry English, is the idea that the person that they presumably were trying to protect, or trying to act in the interest of, had no interest in pursuing it, did not report it, was not invested in the first time he heard about, and actually saw, a young man had already been killed, and rolled over on the street, to make sure he did not have a weapon, according to the police report, by these two men.
And so, what you see here is the idea of what's fundamental is whether or not, and it goes to the Georgia statute, the citizen's arrest law only applies, Chris, if you have immediate knowledge, or have actually observed a crime taking place.
If nobody has reported to them about there being a surveillance video, capturing anybody, who's either trespassing, or doing anything whatsoever, then it undermines any argument that they had met that requisite element of being their immediate knowledge, or that they had a first-hand observation.
What it does speak to instead is that they believe that they were somehow deputized to act in this way, to have shotguns, to pursue somebody who was trying to run away.
And one more point, Chris, it's so important here, when Ahmaud Arbery was trying to run away, he ran back towards the direction he was coming from, as in back to what they are perhaps claiming was the scene of some crime, in some way, and only was he running down the street was 1 o'clock in the afternoon.
It is inconsistent that he would actually return to a place as if he was a fleeing criminal.
All of it speaks to a tragedy and - and probably the reason why, Chris, more than 70 days transpired, and this is the best story they can come up with? I find that odd.
C. CUOMO: Well what - and two other things are odd.
We've now heard from three different angles on this of the reporting, the only other break-in that anyone seems to know about for sure is the one the McMichaels reported, according to Martin Savidge's reporting about their own vehicle, and what they said was a stolen firearm.
Was that part of their motivation? Did they blame Arbery for that? Because we also know that they had experience with Arbery. This is going to be a big part of this story, as we fill in the blanks, going forward.
COATES: Yes.
C. CUOMO: And no one helps with that better than you, Laura Coates, thank you.
Let's take a quick break.
COATES: Thank you.
C. CUOMO: We'll be right back.
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C. CUOMO: Hey, a belated happy Mother's Day. Was nice of the Love Guv to bring our Mama into the presser Sunday. There was actually an important message for all of us in that moment, once you were able to get past this desperate cry for help.
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Happy Mother's Day, Grandma.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): I know I am your favorite. I know you don't want to say that because you have Maria there.
I know you want to see me because I know you're - I know I'm your favorite deep down inside but you don't want to say it.
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C. CUOMO: Yap, yap, yap, yap, yap, yap! Poor guy! If he needs to hear it so badly, can it really be true?
But I digress. For me, the taller, stronger son who provided my parents with their only grandson who is named Mario, after my Pop, it's not about what my mother sees in me, but what I see in her that matters tonight, and, frankly, what we all see in our mothers.
We celebrate them not just because of how they treat us, but in how they treat themselves, their sacrifice. Ask my Mama why, and she'll give you an answer with one word, "Familia! Family!"
We take care of family because we're devoted to something bigger than them or us, the cause of the collective. But, right now, the American family is in a period of dysfunction. We're estranged and acting strangely.
10,000 more Americans could die by August because so many places are relaxing social distancing? What happened to "No man left behind?" Now it's 10,000 is OK?
Look, it's common sense that that's what would happen. You don't need the models to tell you that, if you stop social distancing. That's why those who attack this reality do it with snark and cynical self- interest, like Senator Rand Paul did today.
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SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): We never really reached any sort of pandemic levels in Kentucky and other states. We have less deaths in Kentucky than we have in - in an average flu season. It's not to say this isn't deadly, but really, outside of New England, we've had a relatively benign course for this virus nationwide.
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C. CUOMO: You remember, that beard, that's Paul's COVID beard. He had the virus. And he still seems to be suffering from a type of sickness, but one of the soul. Does he really think that he has no obligation to anyone but his State?
America's never won by going every man and woman for themselves. Only when we are all-in do we win.
We are not prevailing. Not until we show the desperation to get tracing and testing. Until that, we'll be failing because we're failing to give the truth to the people, which will give them the trust they need to reopen.
You can't wish a virus away. It won't miraculously disappear. The President traces and tests every damn day. And everyone around him has a mask on. Now, he doesn't because he wants to keep up the Fox farce, this BS that COVID-19's overrated.
I guess the anti-elitists over there are OK with 10,000 more dead. These liars and race baiters want you to think Fauci is not to be believed, that social distancing is about stealing your freedom.
Remember what your mother told you about people who have nothing good to say. They should say nothing at all. But, more importantly, remember what our moms taught us in their own glorious example of love and action through giving, even when it's hard, even when it hurts, because that's what family is all about.
