Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Fauci Warns Of Serious Consequences In Reopening Too Fast; New Model Projects 147,000 U.S. Deaths By August 4; Poll: Putin's Approval Rating Falls Over Virus Response; All Wuhan Citizens To Be Tested Following New Cases; New Cluster Connected To Seoul's LGBTQ Nightclubs; Key Model Now Projects 147,000 U.S. Deaths by August; Debate Rages over How and When to Reopen Economies; European Carmakers Expect Slow Start as they Reopen; Dr. Fauci and the U.S. President; Drive-in Movie Theaters See Surge in Popularity. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired May 13, 2020 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[01:00:00]
JOHN VAUSE, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, welcome to our viewers joining us from around the world. I'm John Vause. Coming up on CNN NEWSROOM, Reality Check without Donald Trump looking over their shoulders, health experts in the U.S. have delivered a very grim outlook for the coming weeks, very much at odds with the optimistic claims made by the President. The virus and Vladimir, as the number of confirmed cases surge in Russia, now second only to the United States, President Putin's poll numbers are heading south and been growing unease over his government's response to the crisis. And 11 million tests in 10 days. The entire population of China will be checked for the Coronavirus.
We'll begin this hour with another grim forecast in the coming months for the Coronavirus in the United States. With America's leading expert on infectious diseases warning spikes might turn into outbreaks, a model often cited by the White House is now predicting the death toll in the U.S. could be close to 150,000 by early August. The lead researcher told CNN quite simply the more people are out and about, the more people will die.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CHRISTOPHER MURRAY, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR HEALTH METRICS & EVACUATION: What's happened is that states have relaxed early people have heard the message, they've gotten out, they've become more mobile, they're having more contact, and we're seeing the effects already of that transition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Worldwide, Johns Hopkins University reports more than 4.2 million cases, close to 300,000 dead. The U.S. accounts for almost a third of the total cases, about a quarter of the overall death toll with just over 80,000. Away from the White House in the ominous presence of Donald Trump, the leading experts in public health testified before the U.S. Senate. Notably, they're publicly at odds with the President on almost every crucial issue, from vaccines to testing, how soon and how quickly states should restart their economies. We have details now from CNN's Kaitlan Collins.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: As the President pushes for the nation to reopen, one of his top health experts had a dire warning about doing so too soon.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY & INFECTIOUS DISEASES: If you do not do an adequate response, we will have the deleterious consequences of more infections and more deaths.
COLLINS: Dr. Anthony Fauci was one of four top health experts who testified virtually before a Senate committee today, where he and others were pressed on whether the country is ready to reopen.
DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, DIRECTOR, U.S. CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: It's important to emphasize that we're not out of the woods yet. Battle continues in wee months but we are more prepared.
COLLINS: More than 80,000 people in the United States have died from Coronavirus. While the President has privately questioned whether that number is inflated, Dr. Fauci said it's likely higher.
FAUCI: I don't know exactly what percent higher, but almost certainly it's higher.
COLLINS: One day after Trump claimed the U.S. had prevailed on testing, Democrats and one Republican on the committee pushed back.
SEN. PATTY MURRAY (D-WA): But this administration has had a record of giving us broken promises that more tests and supplies are coming and they don't.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): I find our testing record nothing to celebrate whatsoever.
COLLINS: Trump's testing coordinator said the administration hopes to have significantly ramped it up by September.
ADM. BRETT GIROIR, ASSITANT SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH & HUMAN SERVICES: We project that our nation will be capable of performing at least 40 to 50 million tests per month, if needed at that time.
COLLINS: Last week, the President told reporters that the Coronavirus might go away without a vaccine. But Dr. Fauci testified today that that won't happen.
FAUCI: That is just not going to happen. Because it's such a highly transmissible virus.
COLLINS: Trump has often contradicted his own officials in public, though, all denied having a tense relationship with him when asked today.
FAUCI: There's certainly not a confrontational relationship between me and the President.
REDFIELD: We're there to give our best public health device. And that's what we do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have not had a confrontational relationship with the President.
GIROIR: We have a very productive working relationship with each other and also with the President, Vice President.
COLLINS: At one point, Fauci did clash with Senator Rand Paul, one of the President's allies who recovered from Coronavirus earlier this year.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-TX): And as much as I respect you, Dr. Fauci, I don't think you're the and all, I don't think you're the one person that gets to make a decision.
FAUCI: I'm a scientist, a physician, and a public health official. I give advice according to the best scientific evidence.
COLLINS: At the White House, President Trump remained behind closed doors today, after one of his top aides tested positive. Vice President Mike Pence who showed up to work in a mask will now distance himself from the President for the next few days.
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: And the Vice President has made the choice to keep his distance for a few days.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: From Washington, we're joined now by Lawrence Gostin, Director of the O'Neill Institute for National and Global Health Law at Georgetown University. He's also director of the World Health Organization collaborating center on public health law and human rights. It's quite the titles. But Lawrence, thank you for being with us.
[01:05:09]
LAWRENCE GOSTIN, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL AND GLOBAL HEALTH LAW, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.
VAUSE: Well, so for anyone who was watching that Senate hearing on Tuesday, do you believe this may be the first time they've actually heard unvarnished, clear-eyed assessment of the current reality facing this country?
GOSTIN: Well, I think, Tony Fauci, who is, you know, a very old and dear friend of mine, has been trying to tell the truth throughout. But this was particularly poignant because he was there in front of the Senate. He had an audience of the whole of America. And he told the truth, and the truth is, is that we have an enormously serious epidemic in the United States. That states are getting back to work and to normal life when they shouldn't because their cases are going up. And there's going to be a big surge in new cases and deaths. VAUSE: Yes, I don't want to sell this for too much longer, but -- and this is not directed at the, you know, the healthcare professionals, you know, head of the CDC, Tony Fauci, anybody in particular, but it does seem that they are free to speak honestly, clearly and directly, something which they have not been able to do when the President stands next to them during those briefings. So, what impact does that have if they can't speak directly to the public in this similar way during those briefings? What impact does that have on public trust?
GOSTIN: You know, I think it really erodes public trust. You know, public health professionals in the United States, particularly, at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, but many others. You know, they know -- they know the evidence, they know what to do, but they're looking over their shoulders all the time. They're second guessed, they're fearful, and in some cases, like recently, the CDC unissued guidance that was rejected by the White House. Seems to me that what should happen is that the White House should clear its guidance with public health professionals, not the reverse.
VAUSE: That would make sense. You know, there was one moment when Senator Trump loyalists and non-face-mask-wearing Rand Paul, questioned Tony Fauci's judgment about when children or school kids should be allowed to return because of this assumption that because they're children, they have a high level of immunity. I want to play a part of Tony Fauci response to that. Here it is.
GOSTIN: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: We're seeing things about what this virus can do that we didn't see from the studies in China or in Europe. For example, right now, children presenting with COVID-16 -- no, COVID-19, who actually have a very strange inflammatory syndrome, very similar to Kawasaki syndrome. I think better be careful if we are not Cavalier in thinking that children are completely immune to deleterious effects. So, again, you're right in the numbers that children, in general, do much, much better than adults and the elderly, and particularly those with underlying conditions. But I am very careful and hopefully humble and knowing that I don't know everything about this disease.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: You know, that seemed to be a very stark warning on a number of levels that, you know, essentially, you know, the more we learn about this virus, it seems the less we know -- we're not narrowing it down, there's just more and more questions.
GOSTIN: Yes, you know, it's a wily virus. I've been working in global public health all of my adult life. Worked with the CDC, WHO, NIH, I've never seen anything like it. I mean, perhaps the only analogy I could think of was the beginning of the AIDS and the -- and the human immunodeficiency virus of it, which at the time was really badly understood and horrific. But this is a -- this is really a perfect virus. It's one that's very serious, but it doesn't kill all of its hosts so it can survive. It is enormously contagious, so that it can spread very, very rapidly. And it causes multiple organ problems, particularly in certain individuals.
And so, I think Tony is right, we should really be thinking about our kids. We don't know what the immediate health consequences to them or the long-term health consequences because we can see some chronic health consequences as well. And of course, kids can also transmit the virus to their parents, their grandparents, and so they could be a source of transmission.
[01:10:01]
VAUSE: You know, there was a government report which was leaked last week, it came from the CDC, they claimed was incomplete. But nonetheless, there was a prediction of 200,000 new cases a day by, you know, the 1st of June. 3,000 people die in each day by then as well. There was a recent study by Philadelphia's Children's Hospital, which has sort of found a similar thing. But the other way around, extending stay-at-home orders. This study found will reduce the number of people who die. There is no shortage of studies out there, no shortage of real-time evidence playing out in countries around the world which would answer that question of what the consequences are of reopening too soon. But could all of that outcome be entirely avoided? If the United States had something like a South Korean style of testing and tracking system in place and ready to go, even if we didn't have a vaccine?
GOSTIN: Well, it would be an enormous help. It would have been more of a help if it were here earlier so that we had an epidemic that was containable. Now, it's really very widespread. But, yes, what we do what's called, you know, non-therapeutic public health interventions, what we've always done to deal with infectious disease is we test or screen widely. We isolate people who are known to be infected. We quarantine people who've been in contact or exposed to those who have been infected. And we do surveillance to find out where the hotspots are and where it's moving. You know, the truth is, we're doing very little of any of that in the United States today. And it's remarkable and sad to see.
VAUSE: It seems there's so much relying on a vaccine being developed, you know, in record time. Maybe by the end of this year, maybe by beginning of next year. No one really knows. But, and again, the voice of reason here is Dr. Fauci. Here he is from the Senate hearing.
GOSTIN: Yes.
VAUSE: Here he is. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FAUCI: You can have everything you think that's in place, and you don't induce the kind of immune response that turns out to be protective and durably protected. So, one of the big unknown is it will be effective. Given the way the body responds to viruses of this type, I'm cautiously optimistic that we will, with one of the candidates, get an efficacy signal.
(END VIDEO CLIP) VAUSE: Again, it's that caution that, you know, we may not be there in
12 months. I may not be there in five or 10 years. I mean, what are the chances of having something within, you know, a decade from now?
GOSTIN: Well, you know, everybody thinks we'll have something in a decade from now. Of course, we still don't have an AIDS vaccine. And we thought that for quite some time. Vaccines are tricky. First of all, you need to get an effective one and with Coronaviruses, we don't have a particularly good track record. Even with influenza viruses, we tend to get only in the order of say, you know, 40 to 60 percent effectiveness at the best over the years. And we have safety problems, you know, we have to -- we can't rush it too much, because you can do real harm.
And a lot of people don't realize that Gerald Ford actually probably lost his presidency by a botched influenza vaccination campaign. And, you know, we do have vaccines like the dengue vaccine, that actually if given to the wrong people, at the wrong time, can actually make their disease worse, not better. So we need to be -- we need to be thorough, we need to follow the science, we need to study both the effectiveness and the safety, and we need to do it on large populations.
And so, it's not going to be quick. It's not going to be a miracle. But I am agreeing with Dr. Fauci that it -- you know, we're cautiously optimistic right now. We have over 100 vaccine candidates in the world, places like the United States, Europe, China, where we're very hopeful that we're going to find something but not quickly.
VAUSE: Yes, that has to be this voice of reason, I guess at the end of the day that, yes, be hopeful, but you know, plan for the worst, I guess. Lawrence, thank you so much for being with us. We really appreciate it.
GOSTIN: It's a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.
VAUSE: After reporting 10,000 new cases every day for 10 days, Russia now has more confirmed cases than any other country apart from the United States. Despite that, President Vladimir Putin is easing restrictions on movement, encouraging a return to work. And the virus has reached the highest levels of the Kremlin with Putin spokesman hospitalized with COVID-19. Even so, Putin says the two haven't seen one another in more than a month, three other Russian ministers have also tested positive.
From Washington now, we're joined by former CNN Moscow Bureau Chief, CNN Contributor, Jill Dougherty. Jill is also a global fellow at the Woodrow Wilson Center these days, I should mention that. Good to see you, Jill.
[01:15:05]
JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Good to you see you, John.
VAUSE: You know, what is striking here is that Putin seems to have traveled out a very similar road as Donald Trump when it comes to this virus, at first trying to ignore it or playing it down, then there are the surging number of confirmed cases, there's a huge hit to the economy, falling personal approval ratings. "And support for Putin fell to 59 percent in April from 63 percent, the month before, the worst result, since he came to power in 2000, according to a poll published Wednesday by the independent Moscow-based Levada Center." Now, the big difference, of course, is that the U.S. will hold a Presidential election this November, which puts a sort of spin on everything, Russia not until 2024. Nonetheless, though, how do you see this crisis which is facing Putin right now, and his grip on power?
DOUGHERTY: You know, it's very complex for him because if it were just COVID, it would be one thing, and that would be a major, major challenge for him. But you have so many things going on for Putin right now. You have COVID, you have oil prices, which have plummeted. You had -- he had to cancel May 9th, which is the Victory Day for World War II. It's very important in Russia, symbolically, it's a huge celebration, he had to cancel that, or at least postpone it. And then, finally, he had to postpone a referendum. That referendum is going to be voting for or approving changes in the constitution that would allow him to stay in office until, well, it could be another two terms, so 2036. So, these are all coming at the same time.
And you know, in the beginning, actually, I'd have to say that Russia took it pretty seriously. They almost immediately, right at the beginning back, I think it was in January, they closed the border with China. They took some steps, but since then, it has not been a very good picture. A lot of people Russians don't trust their health care system. And it is spreading. And right now, we have the latest statistics, you know, our 232,000 confirmed cases, they have about 10,000 or more per day, you know, being infected or at least being confirmed, and then about 2,000 some have died. And they are, according to the latest study, number two in the world after the United States. So, it's a very serious situation.
VAUSE: You mentioned -- yes, you mentioned that one of the things which is playing into this is, is the collapse in oil prices, which obviously means that Putin is not going to be able to spend his way out of this crisis. So, is there a plan?
DOUGHERTY: You know, that's a very good question because he does not -- they have a rainy day fund, which you could call it, which is enormous, and they could go on for a while, however, you know, dealing with COVID, however, President Putin doesn't really want to tap that unless he has to, and what's really being hit is small and medium business, they are being decimated. And so, that was a pressure on President Putin to get back. In fact, right now, they are opening it up is the end of what are called non-working days. That's what we would say, as, you know, confinement to apartments, etc. So, they can, to a certain extent, go back.
But I was just watching Russian television, you can, let's say in Moscow, that is going to be extended until the end of May. So, what's happened is, President Putin has been strangely, I think you'd call it passive, at least up until now. He's given it pretty much to the governors of the different regions to take care of this and to deal with it. And this is going to be politically very interesting because some of those governors will open up, some will not. And President Putin, as you mentioned, his ratings are going down.
VAUSE: You know, you mentioned the state of the -- of Russia's healthcare system, which is pretty tragic. And that's obviously not helping matters. When you've either been President or prime minister for the last 20 years. It's a bit hard to blame the guy before you for that situation, right?
DOUGHERTY: Well, it is, but in fairness, what President Putin did was he did a lot of improvements in the major hospitals in the major cities. So, that things like, you know, heart attacks, and really, cancer, other things that were in terrible repair at that point, the systems to deal with that were in terrible repair. He's put a lot of money into that. But the problem is you get outside of the big cities, and anyone who has been to Russia, and traveled knows this that when you get to the small towns, you have hospitals that don't have heat, you have hospitals that don't have water, you have hospitals in name only, and that is the problem. It's so uneven across the country, so that when you get to those small towns, heaven knows, you know what kind of steps they can even realistically take to help people.
[01:20:07]
And then, John, you know, we shouldn't forget the ventilator fires that have happened. There was one in St. Petersburg just happened over the last day or two. A ventilator apparently in a St. Petersburg hospital where they had ventilators and is very sadly Coronavirus patients and it caught fire. It may have short circuited, they're having a criminal investigation right now, but it happened there. And there was another case in Moscow. So, this is very concerning.
VAUSE: Yes, it's tragedy heaped on top of a crisis which they do not need right now. So, especially, you know, for the thousands of people who are suffering from this disease in Russia. But Jill, thank you for being with us. We appreciate your time.
DOUGHERTY: OK.
VAUSE: Thank you. Still to come, a massive response to head off an outbreak. Authorities in Wuhan plan to test millions of people in just 10 days. Also ahead, why some may be reluctant to come forward to being exposed to a new outbreak of the Coronavirus in South Korea. We'll hear why from the Mayor of Seoul.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: The entire population of Wuhan, China, all 11 million give or take, about to be blanket tested over 10 days with the Coronavirus. Just when the testing starts is not known, but what seems to be perfectly clear, Beijing's determination to aggressively confront new cases of the virus. Wuhan is where the outbreak began and only ended a 76-day lockdown last month. Since then, a total of six new cases have been reported. CNN's Steven Jiang live for us this hour in Beijing with detail. So, I guess the big question is, can they actually do this? We're talking 11 million tests in 10 days, more than a million a day. Do they have the testing kits? Do they have the infrastructure in place once they take all those tests? Will they get the results back? Are they accurate? I mean, there are a lot of questions here.
STEVEN JIANG, CNN SENIOR PRODUCER: And all perfectly reasonable questions, John. That's why even experts here have questioned its necessity, with some saying, look, all the most recent cases in the city happened within the same residential compound. So, they should just test everyone in a compound instead of the entire city. Now, others, of course, pointing to the huge cost of doing this in the millions of dollars, as well as the logistics nightmare of the planning arranging this, not to mention the relatively high false negative results from these tests. But despite all this, the government in Wuhan seems determined to carry this out because they just don't want to take any more chances.
And they are also very much trying to track down asymptomatic cases through this testing because remember, most of the more recent cases were asymptomatic for a long time. But the biggest challenge in facing them -- the biggest challenge facing them, though, is still testing capacity. Even with the help of third-party companies. We're talking about 100,000 tests per day, far below the benchmark they need to hit.
[01:25:04]
So, that's why now there's more talk about a more staggered approach on a district by district basis. So, each district will complete this process within 10 days, but testing for the entire city of 11 million people will likely take much longer. John?
VAUSE: I guess the question is, is any idea of how, you know, the residents, the good folk of Wuhan, how do they seal this? Do they welcome the test in general? Are there concerns about, you know, this could bring about another lockdown, that could bring about discrimination, especially if you don't have completely reliable testing?
JIANG: That's right, you know, we'd be monitoring Chinese social media for reaction but, you know, with a caveat, these are very much tightly regulated and sensor space, but most people online seem to welcome the news, with some of them saying they had already wanted to go have tested themselves anyway, even before the government announcement because they simply want to have peace of mind. They simply do not want to go through these brutal lockdown measures again, and some even expressing pride in the government's decision, saying this is in stark contrast to what they have seen is happening in other countries. John?
VAUSE: Steven, thank you. Steven Jiang for us, as always, consistently, live in Beijing. Thanks, Steven. South Korea has confirmed another 28 new Coronavirus cases connected to Seoul's nightclub cluster. With over 100 cases in total, the outbreak of the nightclub district and area popular with the LGBTQ community is now fueling fears of a second wave. As CNN's Paula Hancocks reports many of those connected to the cluster are hesitant to get tested.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is Seoul's nightclub district. Doors are closed until further notice. Many patrons are being tested for Coronavirus. Officials say they've tested more than 10,000 people so far after an infected 29-year-old visited five different clubs earlier this month. Seoul Mayor Park Won-soon is leading the effort to trace everyone who was in the area over a two- week period.
PARK WON-SOON, MAYOR OF SEOUL: Corona 19 is battle of time. It should be finished within this week.
HANCOCKS: Park is using all technologies available to track a patient.
Mobile phone records, credit cards, CCTV, and the interview with the individual.
PARK: Yes, right.
HANCOCKS: One issue was local media labeling some clubs affected as gay clubs. Gay rights group said it was difficult for some patrons to then come forward for fear of facing discrimination and homophobia in the conservative country. Lee Jung-jo tells me there's also the issue of the two weeks of quarantine even if they test negative. Patrons would need to tell their employer they were at these clubs and reveal their sexual orientation. Mayor Park introduced anonymous testing Monday, he says the number of voluntarily coming to be tested doubled. This incident shows that even countries deemed successful in handling the pandemic are just one patient away from another outbreak.
PARK: We cannot be safe even though we have zero cases for long time. So and anytime outbreak can come to our society.
HANCOCKS: Park sees the outbreak is another lesson to stay alert. Paula Hancocks, CNN Seoul.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUASE: Well, as this pandemic continues to wreak havoc on healthcare systems around the world, a new report finds the impact on young children could be especially devastating. Researchers from Johns Hopkins estimate in a worst-case scenario, 1.2 million children under the age of 5 could die within six months from preventable causes, most urgent action is taken to ensure routine health services are not disrupted any further. The report also estimates that nine of the 10 countries most likely to see higher-child mortality rates are in Sub- Saharan Africa.
The African President has ordered security forces to resume an offensive against the Taliban after two attacks, which left at least 35 people dead. President Ashraf Ghani accused the Taliban and other insurgent groups of targeting a hospital and a funeral ceremony on Tuesday. The hospital strike killed several infants, mothers and nurses out of maternity ward. The Taliban has denied involvement, and the U.S. is urging both sides to continue with peace talks. The attacks come just two months after the U.S. and the Taliban signed an historic deal aimed at bringing about a permanent ceasefire.
While most of the U.S. is now reopening, but at what cost? We'll have the warnings from the people who know the health experts. And from tech giants to pharmaceuticals, major businesses in Asia releasing their financial results. How the pandemic is impacting their bottom line.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[01:32:01]
JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Just weeks ago, the White House coronavirus task force issued a set of guidelines laying out a series of stages that's safe to follow so they can restart their economy safely. Within days though, the President himself was ignoring his administration's own guidelines and many states have followed that.
Testing is not up to standard. Numbers are not falling consistently, which means a predictive model cited by the White House now forecasts a death toll of 147,000 by August. That's 10,000 more than was predicted just this past weekend.
More details now from CNN's Nick Watt.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SENATOR ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: I just want to hear your honest opinion. Do we have the coronavirus contained?
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF ALLERGY AND INFECTIOUS DISEASES: Depends on what you mean by containment. If you think that we have it completely an under control, we don't.
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Testifying to distance or dialed-in senators today, a dose of reality from the nation's now most recognizable doctor.
DR. FAUCI: My concern is that we will start to see little spikes that might turn into outbreaks.
WATT: Through this weekend, 48 states will have begun reopening -- Colorado, South Carolina, Georgia and Oklahoma were among the first. And their new case counts are holding steady for now but it is still too early to tell the full impact of opening.
DR. FAUCI: There is a real risk that you will trigger an outbreak that you may not be able to control which in fact, paradoxically (ph) will set you back.
WATT: And our hard to comprehend death toll of over 80,000 is likely even higher in reality.
DR. FAUCI: I don't know exactly what percent higher, but almost certainly it's higher.
WATT: Parts of New York state reopening Friday, but New York City will take it much slower.
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK CITY: I am very much aligned with Dr. Fauci's concern. In the beginning of June, that will be the first chance we get to start to do something differently, but only if the indicators show us that.
WATT: Right now, new case counts in South Dakota climbing dramatically and after clashing with the governor over COVID checkpoints on tribal land, the Oglala Sioux now in a three-day lockdown.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be absolutely no movement of anybody or anything throughout the reservation.
WATT: Still, stores in Ohio today opened doors to a brave new world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have cleaned everything.
WATT: Major League Baseball might restart spring training in June, according to "The New York Times". And an 82-game, fanless season. First pitch may be July 4th. And Disney World in Florida is now accepting reservations for July.
But not even Dr. Fauci knows everything about this virus. No one does.
DR. FAUCI: I have never made myself out to be the end-all and only voice in this. I am a scientist, a physician, and a public health official. I give advice according to the best scientific evidence. We don't know everything about this virus and we really better be very careful.
[01:34:55]
WATT: Here in Los Angeles County, they say we will have some restrictions on us for at least another three months as they gradually reopen. Wednesday morning, they are reopening the beaches but not for sunbathing, not for lying around. It is for exercising only. And the parking lots will stay closed. They do not want a crush.
Nick Watt, CNN -- Malibu, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: This debate has now come down to those who see it as a public health crisis and those who see this as an economic one. Dr. Anthony Fauci warned senators that reopening too quickly will lead to more outbreaks and more dead and could be a setback at attempts to revive the economy. Last week he put it into very stark terms.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. FAUCI: Well, you know, it's the balance of something that is a very difficult choice. Like, how many deaths and how much suffering are you willing to accept to get back to what you want to be some form of normality, sooner rather than later?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: CNN's John Defterios is live in Abu Dhabi with us again for more on this. And you know, when we look at the opinions and, you know, people have a right to express what they believe, their constitutional rights and their freedoms and all the rest of it. But you know, at the end of the, there are the experts who have, you know, science and fact and experience on their side. So what are we hearing from them?
JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: And also John -- trying to find the center ground, which is lost in this huge debate, you know. Life isn't black and white, but the debate in the United States, especially also the U.K. is looking that way.
You can call it the art of revival, protecting the health of the citizens but also trying to rebuild growth going forward.
Paul Krugman is the Nobel laureates and a "New York Times" columnist. He says you have to have three things in place. That is testing, tracing, and isolation for those who are sick.
And he said you can learn from the past, the Spanish flu pandemic 100 years ago. We didn't have the technology before, but we have it right now. So if you don't have these things in place, then you should not move forward.
And even after you have all those three policies locked in -- John, nationwide the United States then you open up the economy gradually over a two-month period there after. If you don't, he thinks it's a deadly mistake. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL KRUGMAN, OPINION COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": But we can do this. This is not an impossible task, and the alternative is far worse. The alternative is that the only way you turn this into a depression of years, of depressed economic activity is precisely by failing to take the necessary action now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DEFTERIOS: and he's very critical of the Trump administration for not taking action at the beginning and being in denial in which he says we lost six to eight weeks and very costly as well. And this is reflected in consumer behavior, if you will. John -- the savings rate here now has gone to a 40-year-high of 13 percent, going back to the Reagan administration after that bout of a spike of inflation at the end of the 1970s.
And also we see credit card debt dropping by a third. What does it tell us? Consumers are cocooning because they're hearing the debate and they don't know which way to turn.
VAUSE: Exactly. It's the uncertainty which is out there over jobs and over economy and just over the virus itself.
In the middle of that we have a U.S. President who's urging Americans to go out there and, you know, be warriors, charge the barricades and jump on the grenades and put yourself on the line for the good of the country.
But what is the line between gradually opening up the economy or going all guns blazes and you know (INAUDIBLE) up the risks that are involved?
DEFTERIOS: Well, our colleague, Richard Quest on "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" held this debate last night and try to get the centrist voices to emerge. Gary Cohn is one of them. He was the head of the counsel of the economic advisers under the early states of the Trump administration. Actually was too moderate for the President, particularly when it came to U.S.-China trade.
He says it has to be gradual, but not waiting the length or period of time that Paul Krugman is suggesting that you can move forward because the lockdown is killing off jobs and killing off society.
And then he said there's another danger here -- John. That's it is not just the health care crisis due to the fact of the COVID crisis. But there is other spill out issues for the elderly and society and even those suffering without a job.
Let's take a listen to him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY COHN, FORMEWR DIRECTOR, WHIT EHOUSE ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Telling people to stay home 24 hours a day, seven days a week and only leave your house to go out and purchase groceries or other necessities has other health care implications. There are a lot of things that people need in the general economy, whether it be other health care, other medical needs, that are not getting taken care of.
So we are seeing huge instances now of other diseases and other bad health care outcomes starting to spring up in the economy, in the society.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[01:39:58]
DEFTERIOS: Yes, indeed. And this is another one -- John. It's the psychological impact of having 33 million people file for unemployment benefits. That could get to 50 million by the end of June. Again, nobody wants to talk about it. And as a result of that, the cost to society.
The other side of this, of course, is the legacy of Donald Trump. We had a debt to GDP before the crisis -- before the crisis, 106 percent. That's going to likely leap up to 120 percent with the budget deficit this year $4 trillion.
Again, after the November election, wait to see this. We're going to have a huge debate on a surtax for those who are means tested and can afford it in the United States and other economies around the world. This is costly. A $4 trillion deficit mounted up in one year.
VAUSE: Yes. It's interesting -- we're out of time -- but it's interesting how the Republicans were not concerned about running up the deficit when it was a trillion dollar tax cut for corporations. Now they are very worried about running up the debt when it comes a crisis like this. I guess we will see what happens -- John.
John Defterios live in Abu Dhabi.
U.S. futures are pointing up on Wall Street, that's following a big sell off on Tuesday. Stocks fell after Anthony Fauci's bleak testimony to lawmakers. We've heard some of it earlier.
There was also a proposal from Senator Lindsey Graham to authorize sanctions on China. And investors in Asia have been trading cautiously. Markets have been mixed throughout the day. That is ahead of earnings coming from some of the very major corporations there in the region.
And for more on those results, live to Kaori Enjoji in Tokyo. So where are we now about these earnings reports. How good, how bad -- what are we expecting?
KAORI ENJOJI, JOURNALIST: I think Sony will be the one to watch in about an hour's time. And I think people are -- remember that Nintendo had a banner year, particularly because of the stay-at-home orders triggering people to play games at home. So Sony I think will be the one to watch later on this afternoon.
And I think the fact that if they have their supply chain in order, if they can roll out the new PlayStation in time for Christmas this year, I think investors will like that. So that is the one to focus on but with the pricing and the supply chain issues these other companies have had, it's far from a done deal whether we'll actually get some release dates later on today.
I mean the earnings picture has been very, very patchy. I mean not everyone is going to be like (INAUDIBLE) and say that sales are going to be sharply lower but yet we'll manage to eke out a profit.
I mean a lot of companies like Honda, Shiseido, others in the industry are also saying they basically can't give guidance. So I think there is a concern, genuine concern here as well and across Asia about a second wave. And I should remind you that, you know, Japan is going to announce tomorrow likely that they are going to lift the state of emergency in parts of the region.
I mean it's a little bit different here because the government can't force people to stay in their home, so they're hoping that common sense prevails. It's going to be a staggered lifting of the state of emergency.
But I think the concerns about the economy are real. I mean GDP is going to come out next week for the first quarter and they confirm that Japan is going to be in a recession. The problem is this quarter. I mean there are forecast for you know, post-World War II -- the lowest since post-World War II, down 20 percent.
I mean there might not be a direct correlation with that, but one of the pillars for Abe's government for economic growth was building the casinos and integrated resorts. And Las Vegas fans who's going to pump some $10 billion at least into that program. And the announced overnight that they are going to pull back. They're not interested anymore. So I think one of the pillars of economic growth in Japan has just looked a lot shakier now.
And I think this earnings season in particular has painted a fairly patchy picture. I mean those companies are -- there are some that are benefiting from the stay-at-home orders like the computer companies as well. But anything that has to do with, you know, going out and shopping, consumption, manufacturing, that of course, has been very, very weak -- John.
VAUSE: Kaori -- thank you. Kaori Enjoji there with the latest on all we can expect from those reports. Thank you.
Well, we should note that China is suspending beef imports from four of Australia's largest meat processors officially for violating inspection and quarantine rules, but the move is widely seen as retaliation after cameras reported the Trump administration's demand for an investigation into China's roll in the outbreak of the coronavirus.
Beijing insists an investigation is not needed.
Well, from Audi to Renault, European carmakers are restarting production lines as governments' restrictions are lifted and lockdowns come to an end.
But this is looking to be a tepid and slow restart with a lot of uncertainty. Mostly, will there be buyers for the cars they are making?
CNN's Anna Stewart has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Back to work, but it's not back to normal. Masks, handwashing, and social distancing have become a part of production lines across Europe. Ferrari and (INAUDIBLE) in Italy, Volkswagen in Germany. And now plants are reopening in the U.K. Aston Martin and Bentley.
[01:44:51]
STEWART: The production process has been overhauled. Bentley has introduced 250 new measures to keep workers safe, a process that means they're only making half the number of cars they normally would.
ADRIAN HALLMARK, CEO, BENTLEY: Going down to 50 percent of capacity allows us to slow down the process, separate people that we know would be working closely together, as well as adding in production equipment, gauges, markers everywhere, (INAUDIBLE) screens, face masks. Cleaning equipment wherever you can imagine it.
STEWART: He says 50 percent capacity isn't feasible long term. A quarter of Bentley's workers remain on the government furloughs scheme. Some have already been let go. HALLMARK: 20 percent of our total workforce are temporary, and we have
left about a quarter of those go.
STEWART: It was a tough environment for car makers in Europe even before the pandemic. Jaguar, Land Rover, Daimler and Ford had had already announced job cuts, and then under lockdown, car sales took an unprecedented slump.
In April, new car sales in the U.K. fell over 97 percent. It was a similar story across the continent. Even if these carmakers can return to 100 percent production capacity and car dealerships reopen, the future is uncertain.
Will it ever go back to normal?
FABIAN BRANDT, OLIVER WYMAN AUTOMOTIVE AND MANUFACTURING LESSONS: It's hard to say. But our research suggests that historically, deep recessions have taken about three years for an industry to fully recover to a pre-crisis level, and at the moment, there is no evidence that this time it is going to be significantly faster than that.
STEWART: Demand may return, but how factories operate may never go back to pre-pandemic norms.
Anna Stewart, CNN -- London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: AIDS, SARS, Zika, and now the coronavirus. Dr. Anthony Fauci has led the nation to take on all of these deadly diseases, but never before has his blunt, direct truth telling put him so publicly at odds with a U.S. president and the target of despicable cowards. More on that in a moment.
[01:47:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: Well, the coronavirus pandemic has made Dr. Anthony Fauci a bit of a star here in the United States, a household name. His leadership at the White House Task Force has often shadowed the ramblings of Donald Trump. And with each passing week, it's become increasingly awkward to watch as the doctor and the President often don't agree on how best to manage the outbreak.
CNN's Brian Todd has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. FAUCI: No one can really do it alone --
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He's been at the forefront of America's battles against the AIDS, SARS and Zika outbreaks as well as the Anthrax scare.
Dr. Anthony Fauci, who has been in his current job for 36 years has advised six presidents. But it is quite possible he's never contradicted any of them in public as much as he has Donald Trump. Like in early March, when the President discussed a timetable for a coronavirus vaccine.
[01:49:58]
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I've heard very quick numbers -- a matter of months. And I've heard pretty much a year would be an outside number.
DR. FAUCI: Can you make sure you get the President the information that a vaccine that you make and start testing in a year is not a vaccine that is deployable.
TODD: Fauci's compulsion for scientific truth-telling has during this crisis often thrust him directly at odds with a president determined to portray his response to the pandemic as flawless.
TRUMP: Everything we did was right.
DR. FAUCI: I mean obviously, you could logically say that if you had a process that was ongoing and you started mitigation earlier you could have saved lives. Obviously, no one is going to deny that.
TRUMP: We have met the moment, and we have prevailed.
DR. FAUCI: If you think that we have it under control, we don't.
TODD: Speaking about his discomfort with Trump's inaccuracies on the pandemic at the White House briefings, Fauci once said, "I can't jump in front of the microphone and push him down."
It's led to strong rumors of tension between the two men. In mid April, Trump retweeted a conservatives' call for Fauci to be fired, then downplayed it.
TRUMP: I like him. Today, I walk in, and I hear him going to fire him? I'm not firing. I think he's a wonderful guy.
TODD: On Tuesday, it was Fauci downplaying any possible tension.
DR. FAUCI: There is certainly not confrontational relationship between me and the President. As I mentioned many times, I give advice and opinion based on evidence based scientific information. He hears that, he respects it, and he gets opinions from a variety of other people.
Fauci has been a lightning rod for right wing commentators who accused him of impeding Trump's quest to get the economy rolling again. It's not the first time he's been the center of controversy during an epidemic.
In the 80s, while Fauci was working on cures for AIDS at the National Institutes of Health, protesters would often converge on his building, accusing the government of not doing enough. One activist published an open letter saying, "Anthony Fauci, you are a murderer." Fauci himself lamented that he could not save more lives, telling "The New Yorker", "It was the darkest time of my life." But he buckled down, met with protesters and pressed on.
Now, those who have known him for decades are grateful that he has become the face of this fight.
DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: It's hard to imagine what we would do without tony Fauci. We have all come to rely on him for clear science-based advice. He will tell us both the bad news and the good news and it's something we can rely on.
TODD:: Anthony Fauci will turn 80 years old on Christmas Eve this year. A few weeks ago, he said he was running on fumes. But on Tuesday, he reassured Senators that he was doing fine.
One Stanford researcher who knows him told us that if anyone can extract the secrets to Fauci's longevity and effectiveness in these rolls, they will hold one of the keys to the universe.
Brian Todd, CNN -- Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Still to come here, a blast from the past. While the virus has emptied cinemas on U.S. (INAUDIBLE) is seeing an unexpected boost in business.
[01:53:01]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VAUSE: This pandemic has breathed new life into what was an American institution long on life support. A night at the drive-in is back. Family fun, high school high jinx, and a late night double feature -- all while you shelter in place in your car.
[01:54:57]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES KOPP, DRIVE IN MOVIE OPERATOR: Right now, it is not looking so good. And I hate it when it looks like this.
Small business is a fun one, if it wasn't for my retirement account, we would not be able to put the show on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What's the first name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right-hand lane.
KOPP: People are seeing it as a safe endowment, a safe way to come out to see the movies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which movie?
KOPP: To me, it is like, yes, oh my goodness. It's like we are back here, we're bringing the community back together. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Invisible Man. You got online tickets from --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which movie?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am here with my kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which movie?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trolls.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They followed me when they go in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We drove from Washington, D.C. maybe about an hour to get here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just go straight ahead past the guardrail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the first time out of the house in a couple of weeks.
KOPP: We are seeing a lot of new folks that are coming through those gates.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This sort of feels like normalcy, if you will.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It definitely worked out in this pandemic time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are at least six feet away and, you know, we can stay in our cars if we need to.
KOPP: And to me, it is great, because the drive-in is an experience.
We wanted to do a celebration of appreciation to all of the essential workers out there and give these fine folks the biggest round of horns they have ever heard.
We will see concession foods going. Folks are buying popcorn and drinks.
You must provide space between that --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like it gives you a distraction, to some degree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone needs a distraction right now, for sure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: By watching the movie under the stars, it just gives you that break for an hour and a half, two hours to relax, to kind of go, take a deep breath.
KOPP: Probably the next 12 months, 18 months is going to be all drive- ins.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It helps to make things seem not as bad in the world. Things will get better; it is just going to take time to get there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The American drive in theater rides again, and that's exactly how it is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: That's my weekend coming up in my plans. Thank you for watching CNN NEWSROOM. I'm John Vause.
Please stay with us. Anna Coren will have a lot more news a very short break.
[01:57:37]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
