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Cuomo Prime Time
Trump Announces He's Taking Hydroxychloroquine Despite FDA Warning Against Drug; Coronavirus Hits Hardest In Communities Of Color; FBI Finds Al-Qaeda Link After Breaking Encryption On Pensacola Attacker's IPhone. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired May 18, 2020 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00]
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360: Mary and Wilford came down with Coronavirus in April. Because they were both positive, they were able to stay in the same hospital room, which is a blessing with their beds pushed together. They were so thankful that they could be together as they were in life. 73 years of marriage, think about it.
After a lifetime together, they died within six hours of each other. Their family says, in their final hours, they were able to hold hands, and say "I love you" to each other one last time. Mary Kepler was 92- years-old and Wilford Kepler was 94-years-old. They lived and they died together.
Our thoughts go out to those families and all the families who have lost loved ones and been affected during this pandemic.
News continues right now. Want to hand it over to Chris for CUOMO PRIME TIME. Chris?
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: I know I say it every night, Coop, but that's only because it matters every night.
Remembering those who are gone, and remembering to honor that memory by taking this situation seriously, it's not just important. It's a gift to the audience, and to us, so we stay focused on the humanity. Thank you, my friend. Have a great night.
I am Chris Cuomo and welcome to PRIME TIME.
So, it's a Monday. I'm going to ask you to try something different tonight. Let's just try it once, see how it goes, all right?
Instead of taking the bait that the President tossed out today about him taking Hydroxychloroquine, can we just try looking at why he's doing this today, OK, because this is not an accident.
This is another day that he won't have the media pointing out that we're reopening recklessly. It's another day that he's going to avoid the media, people like me, saying, we don't have proper testing and tracing measures in place? We're the only major nation who doesn't have a central plan to do so? This thing about the drug is a fight he can win because his base
believes in the efficacy of the drug. The science is irrelevant. He's not going to lose anybody that he doesn't have already, and he avoids a fight he doesn't want to have, by avoiding a question he has never even attempted to answer.
How do we reopen in a way that balances our economic needs with our health needs? He's never even taken a swing at it.
So, yes, there's another story tonight as well. There is progress tonight in a race for a vaccine, but that's not a short-term solution. Let's hope it's good. But at this point, it's more hype than hope. So we'll bring in our A-team of doctors to talk about why this doesn't make sense.
But don't take the bait. Let's stay focused on what matters. We have to reopen, but we have to do it the right way. How? That question remains unanswered.
So what do you say? Together, as ever, as one, let's get after it.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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CUOMO: Look, the President knows that Hydroxychloroquine is not supported by science. He knows that it's been flagged by people in his own Administration. He knows that his own Task Force took a non- position on the drug when listing the protocols of how to treat COVID- 19.
But he got it in his head early on, when he got it wrong, that now it speaks to optimism. It speaks to strength. "I'm all-in on reopening. I'll try anything. We should do anything."
Not testing and tracing, why? If you want to do anything, why? Because testing and tracing makes reopening go more slowly, he thinks. Why? Because the numbers, what did he tell you about what the numbers do? "We have more cases because we test more. We test more than anybody in the world."
Not true. Guess how much of our population we've tested? Less than 5 percent. So, we're not overdoing it.
What else did he say? "And every time you test, you find out something is wrong." Wrong? How is somebody being positive and negative right or wrong? It's only wrong if you don't like what it represents.
So, why does he bring up this Hydroxychloroquine? I don't even know that he's really taking it, by the way. He's got a letter from his Doctor saying that that's why he prescribed it. By the way, it doesn't mean he's taking it.
"Well why wouldn't he take it if he says he's taking it? What are you, crazy?" No, it's a fight that he can win, and that the media will take on, and that his opponents may take on, and it's all a beautiful distraction.
Now, here's what he said today, and you have seen it picked up everywhere and, almost always, for the wrong reasons. Watch.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Many, many are taking it. I happen to be taking it. I happen to be taking it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hydroxychloroquine?
TRUMP: I'm taking it, Hydroxychloroquine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When?
TRUMP: Right now, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, when?
TRUMP: Couple of weeks ago, I started taking it.
I want the people of this nation to feel good. I don't want them being sick, and there's a very good chance that this has an impact.
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CUOMO: I'm telling you, it's a winning argument for him. Beat me up all you want.
Sanjay's going to come on for a second. We got Rich Besser tonight who used to head up the CDC. Excellent doctors! They'll slap around what the President is doing. It's irrelevant, OK?
He wins this argument. Why? Because he believes. Because he's taken a chance. Because he's strong. He's not the "Party of No."
He's not the Democrats, "No, don't take the Hydroxychloroquine just in case. You stay home. You can't go out. You can't work. You can't eat. You can't live." That's where he's put the Democrats. Some of it's messaging. But some of it's more than that.
Now, why did he do this? Who cares why because it works, all right?
Now, let's bring in Sanjay Gupta, OK? Sanjay is not here to talk politics. He's here to check obvious boxes for us. Let's put up the Doctor's letter, Sanjay, because I did a little calling when this came out, as I'm sure you did.
Not easy to find a doctor who says they would prescribe this prophylactically which means before there's anything wrong with you.
"After numerous discussions, the President and I had, regarding the evidence for and against the use of Hydroxychloroquine, we concluded the potential benefit from treatment outweighed the relative risks."
Does that sound like maybe the Doctor had to be convinced? Maybe. Maybe not. Irrelevant. How often have you heard this prescribed prophylactically, before you're sick?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I have not heard it prescribed prophylactically. There's been a lot of anecdotal discussion about this. There is no evidence.
You know, in the letter, I read the letter as well, it says the evidence for and against. There is no evidence to use this prophylactically.
There are studies that are being done to look at this right now for healthcare workers who've had significant exposures. Those studies will come out at some point.
There are other studies that are looking at it as a treatment, as you know, Chris, you and I've talked about it, and those studies have been pretty - pretty abysmal. They've not shown benefit. And they've shown some potentially significant harm, especially when it comes to the heart. So, not good as a treatment, evidence is there for that.
As far as prophylaxis, no evidence to show that it works. So, I, you know, it's - and the FDA has come out, and said, again, and I know, you - you've talked to these folks, but said "Do not use this outside of a clinical trial, outside of a hospital, because there's just no evidence here."
Now, he's the President. He can get tested, and checked out, and get EKGs and stuff like that, but what about everybody else? The message is very clear, "Don't take this. We don't have evidence that it works. It could be harmful."
CUOMO: Now, one quick other medical box to check, and then I want to talk to you about why I think this is not about medicine at all.
He, according to you and others, may have a sensitivity with his heart. Is what you had seen in tests about his heart in any way relevant to what has been discussed about Hydroxychloroquine's potential unintended consequence with arrhythmia?
GUPTA: It's a great question. What I would say is this. And, again, we're learning as we go along.
But in people who have COVID, meaning that they actually have the infection, this is a concern for the heart, taking this medication.
And if you already have existing heart disease, it's a different sort of heart problem that the Hydroxychloroquine can cause, but it is a concern for people who have underlying heart disease, if they were to take this medication as a treatment for COVID.
As a prophylaxis, I think the - it's still a little unclear. That's what these new studies are going to go and show. You know, Chris, you know that this was a malaria prophylaxis. It's still used in places around the world. I've taken it, actually. Other people have taken it in the past, long time ago.
I wasn't screened for anything for my heart at that point. So, I think at that, you know, for somebody who doesn't have existing COVID disease, there's not an indication necessarily. We don't know yet what the impact on the heart would be.
But for someone who has the disease, and takes the medication, there is now a real concern. So, again, no benefit--
CUOMO: Right.
GUPTA: --proven, either for prophylaxis or treatment, potential harm, significant harm, when it's used as a treatment.
CUOMO: OK. So we've been responsible, OK? Now let me talk to you about why I think this is happening. And even though I don't usually talk politics with you, I think you're going to get this.
When the hydroxychloro - well you can obviously get it, you're a genius. But I'm saying it's worth exposing you to the politics of it.
When this first came out, you and I talked about it a bunch, OK? I had Z-Paks and Hydroxychloroquine--
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --sent to me by well-meaning clinicians who were all Trump supporters, OK? Everyone who sent me them believes in the President on one level or another, OK?
I don't think that's a coincidence, why? Because this became symbolic of one part says "No, no, no, no, no, Sanjay, no, don't take it. No, don't leave your house. No, don't do this. No, don't do that."
[21:10:00]
And what is Trump's argument? "Reopen, baby. We're strong. We're not playing scared"--
GUPTA: Yes.
CUOMO: --"like Gupta and all these other guys want us to play.
Take the Hydroxychloroquine. What do you have to lose? You're dying, anyway, from staying home. You're losing all your money. Your life is draining away.
You're just stuck because the Democrats want you there. And, by the way, they want you there because they want to steal your freedoms, and make you pawns of the oppressive power majority," which is growing faster than anything to do with the virus.
That's how this started. You'll remember people coming at you about it that way. "Why don't you say "Yes," Sanjay? Why don't you say "Yes" about this drug? It means more than the medicine."
Your take?
GUPTA: Yes, I - there was - there was definitely a lot of that.
And people want - I mean, you know, there is this inflection point between hope and honesty. And I think people were very much leaning on the side of, you know, this - let's just be hopeful that this works and, you know, who cares about the data or the science.
And, you know, as clinicians, as scientists, we always have to say that, "Look, there can be potential problems with this stuff. There's no evidence that it works." And ended up it was a really - it was crazy timing. Got a lot of pushback on that, which was very interesting.
Again, I think most of my medical colleagues, I think, have been, you know, much more responsible when it comes to this. But there have been, I know, people were sending you medications, where people were saying, "Just try it."
Things can have harm. Things may not have benefit. In this case, it - people were - started hoarding the drugs. Pharmacies were running out of the medication. People who needed it for legitimate reasons could no longer get it.
So, you really have to play this out, and see what all the unintended consequences are. That's going to happen again tonight, Chris. People are going to start hoarding this medication.
There are people who are going to start taking it that shouldn't be taking it and people could be harmed. That's - that's the concern. That's why we keep talking about this.
CUOMO: We're - I'll talk about it. I'll be responsible about it. But I ain't taking the bait, I'm telling you, I'm not doing it.
He doesn't want me to mention that this is another day without a plan to test and trace in this country, the way every other major nation, who's seen a downturn in cases, has done. Not on my watch. Not with me and Sanjay. Not tonight.
You need to do more and better and answer the question of how. Nobody's forgetting. This is, to use medical parlance, Sanjay, let's use the antiseptic light of truth in reality of what's happening here.
GUPTA: There you go.
CUOMO: He's going to take Hydroxychloroquine. But he won't wear a freaking mask? I mean--
GUPTA: Right.
CUOMO: --come on, man.
GUPTA: Right. CUOMO: Sanjay, thank you for being reasonable. Thank you for telling people what we know and what we don't. I appreciate you and love you for that.
GUPTA: You got it.
CUOMO: OK?
GUPTA: You, too, brother.
CUOMO: But me, I am the sullied, OK? I'm into the politics of this.
Sanjay, we keep him for the medicine. He talks about public health policy. Please, don't even have him in here anymore. Let Sanjay go home. Thank you, Sanjay. Leave him alone. I'm telling you, I don't want him for this part of this discussion.
Good. Thank you. I don't want him colored by this.
I am sullied by this. I see the politics in this. I don't know if he's taking it or not, but I know that this is helping him.
I know it is because his people see it as strength and his determination to do whatever he can and that the Democrats are the "Party of No." They've been caught in messaging. We got Senator Bernie Sanders on tonight to talk about exactly that.
Now, what does he not want us to talk about by floating out this Hydroxychloroquine thing? What the government should be doing to get us to reopen faster. What about the how?
Who should be talking that about? Dr. Rich Besser. Why? He ran the CDC. He understands what this government is capable of, what states should be doing, what they should be directed to be doing, and what's not happening. Next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: Reopen or not? Not even a question. Have to reopen.
The only question is how. And it keeps being ignored because it's hard. Unless you wanted to go full Trump, go full Wisconsin, all-in let's see what happens, right? But almost every poll of you guys says, "No, we don't want that," and yet, it gets ignored.
"But we'll talk about Hydroxychloroquine, and why the President's taking it." Who cares! God bless him. I hope he's OK and he doesn't get sick. Sure as heck ain't going to be the Hydroxychloroquine that saves him, though. There's no science to support it.
But boy, does it work wonders in politics?
Because here's our reality that you're not going to hear a lot about tonight, even on my competitors' tonight, I guarantee you that it will be more about why he would say that, and what that's about, and what is it right, what is it wrong than this?
All 50 states will have opened by the end of this week. Again, look at who's growing in cases, yet opening, OK?
For those of you who have been clamoring for a quick reopening, listen, I'm with you. We all want to reopen ASAP.
But you got to admit, it's a little weird for states to be reopening without a great testing or tracing plan, and no real way to make sure that if there's any problem they can deal with it when their cases are still going up.
It's a little risky, little weird, and it'll be interesting to see how many people go out and take risks with their own families. Again, we don't want anybody to get sick, OK? It's just about how we do it the right way.
A good thing is to reopen. But I've always said it's just about how. And we ignore that. You've never heard the President talk about "How" in any real way, especially why we should be concerned.
You know why? You hear this?
[21:20:00]
That is the sound of the voiceless, those who will be hit hardest. Who? Communities of color, vulnerable populations, because of poverty and systemic problems, in terms of getting treatment, getting to care. African-Americans, 13 percent of the populations, in all areas releasing such data, 27 percent of deaths, OK?
Let's take a look at one state, Georgia, opened fast, right? Home State of the CDC, by the way, Black Americans, 50 percent of the deaths, 31 percent of the population, why?
Dr. Richard Besser, former Acting Director of the CDC during Swine Flu, H1N1, I've known him a long time. I've been leaning on this man like a crutch for over a decade.
It's good to see you, Doc.
DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING CDC DIRECTOR, PRESIDENT & CEO, ROBERT WOOD JOHNSON FOUNDATION: Nice to see you, Chris.
CUOMO: So, Dr. Rich Besser, why are African-Americans and poor populations, minority poor population, specifically, dying more?
BESSER: Yes. I mean, it's - it's a critical question, and it's something that shouldn't be. And there are - there are quite a number of reasons behind it.
One is a very high proportion of Black Americans, Latino Americans, Native Americans fall into that category of essential workers.
So, whether they're working in healthcare, whether they're working in transportation, food supply, making sure there's food - food on the shelves for others to eat, it's putting them at risk because of exposure. So, you have that - that piece of it. You have them in those positions without proper protective equipment.
And then when people get sick, what do they do? Well, very high proportion of Black Americans, Latino Americans, who are either uninsured, there are - there are 28 million people in America without health insurance, so what do you do?
Well, you can't call your doctor, so maybe you go to the emergency room, and if you didn't have COVID before, you can get exposed there. Then you're diagnosed with COVID infection, and what do you do? You're told to go home and self-isolate.
Well, you know what it takes. You had this. You know what it takes to shut yourself off from the people you lived with.
And if you live in a crowded situation with many other family members, many of whom may be elderly, or have underlying medical conditions, you aren't just one person who is sick. You are the start of a little localized outbreak in your family. Those are many of the reasons.
There's also, you know, a high proportion of diabetes and high blood pressure, a lot having to do with the conditions in lower-income neighborhoods, where the air quality is not as good, sets you up for asthma, and heart disease, and lung disease. The access to fresh fruit and vegetables isn't there.
And this group that we're calling "Essential workers," before this began, how many of them were even being paid a living wage?
CUOMO: Mm-hmm.
BESSER: You know, so - see it's "The Perfect Storm" here, Chris, as to why this is occurring.
CUOMO: Right.
BESSER: And many places aren't even looking closely to identify where the risk is--
CUOMO: Right.
BESSER: --risk is happening.
CUOMO: Now, just for the audience, real quick, when you guys hear Rich, Dr. Rich Besser say, "And they weren't even making a living wage," you know, like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what does money have to do with making you sick?"
What do you use to pay for food? What do you use to pay for medicine?
BESSER: Right.
CUOMO: What do you use to fuel all the things that help you stay healthy? Money. And if you don't have it, you're more at risk. And if you don't believe it, look at poor White populations. You'll see the same difference in numbers.
BESSER: That's right.
CUOMO: By income, not just color. Now--
BESSER: Yes.
CUOMO: --Rich?
BESSER: Income - income is--
CUOMO: Yes.
BESSER: Income is critically important because many people can decide, "OK, I'm working remote, I'm at home."
CUOMO: Right.
BESSER: For people who are - are earning a living to put food on the table, and pay the rent, they're being forced to make a decision between staying home and doing what's safe, or going out and taking care of their family.
CUOMO: Yes.
BESSER: It's just - it's a choice no one should have to make.
CUOMO: And putting people at risk.
So now you get to my premise of the day. I will not bathe you in Hydroxychloroquine. But I will suggest to you why the President would rather have people debating whether he's strong for taking it, making the right move, or not.
What should be happening in this country right now in terms of a centralized, you know, Federal Government sponsored, organized, funded, testing and tracing plan that filters to the states and that we see resonate across the country based on need that is not happening?
BESSER: Oh, there's - there's so much. You know, public health is being put forward as the enemy of economic reopening.
But, in fact, it's the path. It's the roadmap to how do you do it in a way that - that protects people's lives and is sustainable. And it's testing, tracking, and providing support for isolation and quarantine.
When you look at other countries, it's not just those two pieces of "Let's test people and then find out who they've been in contact with."
If you don't ensure that everybody, who's been in contact with somebody, who has COVID or is infected, has a safe place to quarantine, and has income to buy food, while they're there, and they're supported, then you're just counting numbers.
You're not preventing outbreaks. You need all three pieces. And they're expensive. They're going to take federal dollars.
[21:25:00]
They're going to take working with each community, so that contact tracers are coming from communities, and you're providing support in ways that are culturally appropriate. You know, it can be done. It takes resources. But Public Health knows how to do this.
CUOMO: Absolutely, if they're allowed. CDC--
BESSER: Exactly.
CUOMO: --couldn't even get their guidelines out. They got watered down to flowcharts. They had chapters and chapters about specific things to follow. You know this. You ran the agency.
BESSER: Yes. Yes. No, it's - it's a real challenge. I'm on the Committee to - the Commission to restart and recover in New Jersey and on the seven-State Coordinating Group.
And we shouldn't have to be developing these State-by-State. It should be coming down from the Feds, and then states should be able to adopt it based on what's happening locally, you know, because the outbreak isn't occurring at the same rate in each place at the same time.
So, there should be differences, but they should all be based on the same national strategy. That's how it works.
CUOMO: And let's just be clear. This is not Rich Besser's opinion. It is my opinion.
Why isn't that happening? Because more numbers slow down reopening, and that's not what the President wants. That's why he's talking about Hydroxychloroquine, OK? Because it is a distraction from how we reopen, and he doesn't want to talk about that.
Dr. Richard Besser, it is great to see you. Thank you for, once again, helping me understand things better.
BESSER: Thank you, Chris.
CUOMO: Best to you and the family.
All right, look, everybody keeps saying "Can't have any politics at play." You never hear me say it because I've always assumed it was. Look, I'm not cynical, OK?
I haven't gotten tired of caring. It's the opposite. I just see what's happening here. It's all politics. And forget about just beating up on the President. It's not what this is about.
What about the Democrats? They are getting set up as the "Party of No" here. "Hydroxychloroquine, I'm going to take it, what do you have to lose?"
"No, no, no." Who's saying that? Almost every one of them Democrat.
"Let's reopen. Come on, let's go with it, man. We're strong. We'll see what happens."
"No, no, no." Who's saying that? Democrats. They say science. They say reason. But you know what a lot of people in America hear? "No," and they don't like it.
So, am I wrong? Let's talk to one of the prominent members of the Party, one of the smartest men I know, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, here next.
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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.
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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.
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CUOMO: So, our President wants to talk about how strong he is to take Hydroxychloroquine because he just does everything he can to make himself strong and make this country strong.
And I hope doing whatever he does keeps him strong, science notwithstanding. But I know this much. I don't know that it will help with his health, but it certainly helps to cover up his weaknesses, another day that most of the media wouldn't be pressing him about never dealing in any real way with how we reopen.
And he bought a pass today on a bad piece of news that I bet you probably haven't even heard about. Did you know that the first foreign-directed terror attack since 9/11, foreign-directed, happened on Trump's watch?
We now know the FBI has found an Al-Qaeda link to that Pensacola attack last year at a military base. They were able to break the encryption on the attacker's iPhone. Now, we knew he was a Saudi military trainee. Remember, and it was all
put on the Sauds, right? Remember that? It was all put on the Saudis by the Trump Administration.
Well now we learned he was apparently a long-time associate of Al- Qaeda, who had communicated with operatives from the group as recently as the night before the shooting.
Remember, three U.S. sailors were killed. Several others wounded.
FBI Director Chris Wray says the Pensacola attack was actually the "Brutal culmination of years of planning and preparation," by a longtime Al-Qaeda associate in the Arabian Peninsula.
Again, since 9/11, we've had plenty of people, lone wolf, foreign- inspired, or just, you know, malignant of mind and soul, but no foreign terrorist organization has successfully directed a deadly attack in the U.S., OK? That's what we get according to a think tank that studies these things.
So, again, you're not hearing about that today. Why? Because you're hearing about Hydroxychloroquine.
You're not getting pressed by the press to the President about "How do we reopen, how do you bring these states together? How do you get it, so you balance what we need, and what we want?"
Let's bring in Senator Bernie Sanders.
Always a pleasure to see you. You look well. I hope you and the family are great.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D-VT): We're doing great. How are you doing?
CUOMO: Better than I deserve.
The idea of just in case, Senator, we need you, you're one of the leaders of this country, should you be popping some Hydrochloroquine like Tic Tacs just in case?
SANDERS: Just in case, no. No big-time, you know. I think it's good idea to listen to what doctors have to say. And what they are saying is that particular drug has not been proven to prevent the Coronavirus. And, in fact, it has some pretty nasty side effects. So, no, I would not be taking it.
CUOMO: Now, in preparation for the interview tonight, I thought I would have a reasonable number to use with you about how many times you chided me not to bother you with what Trump was saying because it was a distraction.
But the number grew so quickly that it was so embarrassing, I thought it was going to give me a fever again. So, let's just deal with the general proposition. You are very savvy to when Trump is trying to snooker. Do you sense that that is what is happening right now?
SANDERS: I do. He is certainly trying to deflect attention from two extraordinary unprecedented realities.
[21:35:00]
And that is, right now, we are looking at the most severe economic meltdown since the Great Depression, and simultaneously we've now lost over 90,000 Americans, as a result of the worst pandemic since 1918.
Combine those two, what we're living through now is an horrific moment in American history. And clearly, the focus should be, A, how do we address the extraordinary suffering that working-class people are now experiencing?
Chris, as you well know, you've reported on it many times, we have lost over 30 million jobs in the last two months, an unbelievable number.
And many of the people who have lost those jobs are struggling now literally to put food on the table for their kids. They're struggling to pay the rent, not get evicted, keep their homes, all of the basic necessities that they need to survive.
And you have not heard Trump say one word about the need for Congress to act and act boldly, right now, to protect a working-class in this country, which is suffering in a way we have not seen since, perhaps, the Great Depression.
Here is a guy who said, "I am a champion of the working-class. The Republican Party is the Party of the working-class." Well, Mr. President, stand up and defend workers throughout this country.
Second of all, Dr. Besser, a moment ago, got into this. And that is, "Sure, we all want to go back to work. Sure, we all want to reopen the economy." But you do not want to sacrifice lives unnecessarily in that process.
Where is the national policy that says to states and employers all over this country, "This is the safe way to bring workers back on the jobs."
So, what you got now, Chris, and this is really quite unbelievable when you think about it. You got 50 states scrambling on their own, each moving in a different direction.
Clearly, what we need is a national policy, which helps the states and the communities, based on science, know how to go forward, bring workers back, bring kids back to school, if necessary, but do it in a way that is safe.
CUOMO: What is your thought about an emerging theory that I have, which is he is painting you, not just Bernie Sanders, it would be hard to do it to you, honestly, because you have been pushing the Democratic Party to become the "Party of yes."
"Yes, we'll try this. Yes, we'll do that. Yes, we'll expand this," and you had a big impact on the culture of your Party's rhetoric, at least. We'll see what Biden runs on, and what the Congress backs up on.
But he's now painting you as the "Party of No." "Reopen? No, no, no, no, not yet. Get back to work? No, no, no, no, no, you can't do it this way. Get back to living? No, no, no."
He's painting himself as "Yes man" and you as "No man."
SANDERS: Yes.
CUOMO: Are you worried about that as a Party person?
SANDERS: I am. What he is doing, and it is extraordinarily dangerous, he has, from day one of this crisis, he has minimized the danger, downplayed the danger, not listened to the scientists, not used the Defense Production Act to produce the masks and the gowns that our doctors and medical personnel need.
He has downplayed this. And now, what he's saying is, "Hey, I'm tough. Let's get back to work. Don't listen to those namby-pamby Democrats." I think that's your point. And I think you're making a good point.
And what we have got to say is, of course, we want the American people to go back to work, but we're not going to sacrifice lives unnecessarily.
If I'm going to go to work in a factory, you know what, I think I want to know that the guy who's working next to me is not positive for this Coronavirus because even if I don't get sick, I don't want to go home, and get the virus, and then give it to my grandmother who has a serious heart ailment or diabetes. I don't want to kill somebody who is vulnerable to this virus.
So, Trump says you don't have to worry about those things. Well, I think you do. And I think we have the science now. We certainly have the capability of creating a methodology by which people can, in fact, return to work.
They do want to return to work. They do want to go out to a restaurant. We can do that, but do it in a way that is safe, and not listen to Trump, and sacrifice, I fear, many thousands of lives.
CUOMO: I've said this many times, no question, on the record, on the show, I don't see how your Party wins unless it's an all-in strategy, and I don't know how if Bernie Sanders isn't all over the country fighting for the Party that you guys win. It's just my opinion.
President Obama, I also believe that it's an all-in strategy. And if you don't have him all over the place, I think Joe Biden has trouble, if he winds up being, you know, officially made the nominee.
[21:40:00]
He is now out there, President Obama, in a way, talking to kids, and doing convocations, and end-of-year ceremonies, where there's a lot messaging in it, the President and he, going back and forth a little bit. What is your take on this from a strategy perspective from your Party?
SANDERS: Well I think what President Obama is doing is the right thing.
And Chris, you know, in the midst of this terrible tragedy, which is impacting everybody, in one way or another, a group that we don't pay enough attention to, who are really horrifically impacted by this, are the young people, all right?
You're graduating college right now, where's the job for you? Maybe you left school $50,000 in debt, $100,000 in debt, you're graduating high school right now, where is the opportunity for you?
So, I think we're going to do, actually - I'm going to be doing a graduation response as well. And the message is to these young people, this extraordinary potential.
But in order to do what has to be done, we have to organize, we have to educate, we have to have the courage to take on powerful special interests, and create an economy that works for all of us, not just the few.
And you know, Chris, in the midst of this unprecedented moment, if there is any silver lining out there, I hope that it is that people are beginning to think, how did we get to where we are today? How were we so unprepared?
How do we have a healthcare system, for example, you and I may have argued about this one, but you got a healthcare system today, in which for many people their healthcare is tied to their jobs?
Well, what happens when 36 million people lose their jobs? Are they not needing healthcare today? Of course, they are. We have got to move to a Medicare-for-All system, in my view, which understands that healthcare is a human right, not simply a job benefit.
We also, in my view, and the young people have got to fight for this thing, understand how does it happen that in the richest country on Earth, when people, millions of people, stop getting a paycheck for a week or two weeks, they're suddenly in financial desperation? How does that happen?
CUOMO: Right, because too many people--
SANDERS: The answer is half of our people are--
CUOMO: --are living paycheck to paycheck.
SANDERS: You got it.
CUOMO: And now you have people who are saying, "Oh, they're making too much because they're making $15 an hour," netted up, and all the sudden they're living high on the hog.
We have a lot of big issues. Nobody has talked about the working-class as often, and as vehemently, as you have. And while I have to test the ideas, that's the job, you will always have a platform, anywhere I am, to make your case to the American people.
SANDERS: Well thank you very much, Chris.
CUOMO: Thank you. God bless you and the family. Stay healthy. Stay well. Stay active. It's good to see you, Senator.
All right, be well.
So, now, let's switch stories but keep our intensity. There's new video that surfaced tonight of Ahmaud Arbery, the young Black man killed in Georgia. You know that. This tape is from years ago. It has nothing to do with the case, or does it?
I want to bring in our top former federal prosecutor to take a look at what this tape tells us about who we were dealing with, and how that may have played a role in this situation, next.
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CUOMO: Family attorneys for Ahmaud Arbery say that a newly surfaced 2017 body-cam video obtained by "The Guardian" is legitimate. It's important to note "The Guardian" made some edits to the video I'm about to show you, only publishing the most critical moments. But what you're about to see does line up with the main points of the
police report of this incident. Take a look for yourself.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You off work today?
AHMAUD ARBERY, GEORGIA SHOOTING VICTIM: Just rapping, rapping in the park.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got you. You got an ID on you, man? Everything's in (ph). Be right with you, OK?
Why am I (BEEP) with you?
ARBERY: Yes, why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to know why I'm (BEEP) with you?
ARBERY: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hand in your pocket.
ARBERY: I ain't got shit on me. What the (BEEP) you're (BEEP) with me for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll tell you why I'm here, man.
ARBERY: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll tell you why I'm here.
ARBERY: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because this area is known for drug activity.
ARBERY: Drug? How the (BEEP) drug I'm taking? I work at Blue Beacon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up.
ARBERY: Check my sheet, all right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Back up.
ARBERY: What the (BEEP) you're talking about?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to back up?
ARBERY: Check my mother (BEEP) sheet.
What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around and put your hands on the car.
ARBERY: Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around and put your hands on the car.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn around and put your hands on the car. I'm checking you for weapons.
ARBERY: You got no reason.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm checking you for weapons.
ARBERY: You got no reason to search me, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not searching you. I'm checking you for weapons. All right, man? You don't have any warrants.
ARBERY: I got no (BEEP) weapons, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know, but you're coming up on me, making me kind of nervous.
ARBERY: You're bothering me (ph) so much, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK?
ARBERY: You bothering me for nothing.
You can't go in my car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're not allowing me to search your car?
ARBERY: You can't go in my sheet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not asking you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't reach in it, buddy. I'm telling you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just don't reach for the car, man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put your hands on your pockets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands on your pocket.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hands on your pocket.
(TASER SOUND)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down, warning, down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay on the ground, stay on the ground, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your hands out. No, keep your hands down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll check - I've already checked in for weapons. I've checked in for weapons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
ARBERY: I'm trying to ease my mind. I was rapping. I rap, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. OK.
ARBERY: I rap.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got you, man. But when you run up on me, and you get really jumpy, that's going to make me nervous, too.
ARBERY: I have one (ph) day. I got one day off a week. One day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
ARBERY: One day off a week. I'm trying to chill on my day off, bro.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got you.
ARBERY: I'm running in the morning trying to chill. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was very aggravated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Malfunctioned?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I tried to tase him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did try to tase him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You got to the point where you had to tase him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it was - I didn't realize he'd already patted him down for weapons. I think I could see there's, like, a wallet or something.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I can see him going like that. And he had a big, heavy coat on.
(CROSSTALK)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[21:50:00]
CUOMO: For what it's worth, Arbery had his hands out well - as well before the cop decided to tase him, OK? But this isn't about that specific incident. That's not what this is about. Police officers didn't take the life of Ahmaud Arbery. Regular citizens did.
And Arbery family attorney says that this tape clearly depicts a situation where Ahmaud was harassed by Glynn County police officers. This type of behavior by the Department is well-documented.
We've called the Glynn County Police Department for comment. We haven't heard back.
But let me bring in CNN's Senior Legal Analyst, Laura Coates. What's your take?
LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR, SIRIUSXM HOST, "THE LAURA COATES SHOW", ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEY CIVIL RIGHTS DIVISION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT: Well, first of all, if it is in fact - has confirmed it, what it is, Chris, is entirely irrelevant for the very reason you said. Number one, those officers are not being accused of having killed Ahmaud Arbery while he was jogging.
While their conduct may be questionable about the use of a taser, about stopping him, one thing is quite clear. He did know his rights related to the car search.
But the real issue here is whether Travis and Gregory McMichael had the right to stop him. They were not officers. They were not deputized in some way, as far as we know, by the police.
They did not have some legal duty to protect the property that Larry English owned that they believed Ahmaud Arbery had stopped by on, on his jog, through the actual neighborhood. And so, I want to keep people very focused on these issues.
The reason this is being brought up, I suspect, is to try to counter, one, the photograph of a young man in a tuxedo to try to convey somehow that he is combative in nature, or to reflect that he was obstinant and refused to submit to somebody's demand.
Well that may be relevant for some people's decision about who they think Ahmaud Arbery was. But the only relevant inquiry here is what the McMichaels were entitled to do as citizens, non-officers.
And whatever interaction he has had with a police officer, or a school principal, or the Tooth Fairy, before that day, is entirely irrelevant to what that interaction actually entailed.
CUOMO: I see two other angles. One, did the McMichael who'd been on the Force know anything about the stop? And was that something that went into this informing of this picture he thought he had of this guy?
Because the idea of him doing some work on Ahmaud Arbery, knowing him, we've heard something reported early on that one of the McMichaels have been involved in a case that he was involved in.
There is no case here. He was let go here. Thank God, the taser malfunctioned, and he wasn't arrested, nothing happened, he was allowed to leave. That's one angle.
The second angle is Ahmaud Arbery knew what it was like to be harassed by the cops. He clearly didn't like the idea of somebody messing with him for no or bad reason.
And it makes you wonder, when he's jogging down the street, and two guys light him up in a - in a pickup truck, trying to stop him, for minutes, you know, was he the kind of guy, as his mother said to me, the other night, "I taught him, you be nice. But if people won't leave you alone, and you have to protect yourself, protect yourself."
This was a kid who wasn't afraid of standing up for himself. I wonder how it played into the situation with the McMichaels.
COATES: Well, to the first point, it's true that you could - if there is any indication that the McMichaels, particularly Gregory McMichael, while he was an officer, or an investigator, had had some interaction.
And that would speak to my mind as a prosecutor about how he was able to identify this person and his awareness of who this person was, as a suspect in the past. But, of course, it would really belie logic here because he is suggesting, and according to some reporting that they thought that he had a weapon on him in - on February 23rd.
This videotape, if that's the sole interaction shows, he did not have anything on him. He complied with the officers' demands, all the while asserting his - his belief that they had no right to stop him and his rights in the Fourth Amendment context of the search of his vehicle.
So, it wouldn't be consistent to suggest that you would think that this man is now somewhat armed and is consistent in this area.
On the second idea that, of course, yes, most unfortunately Brown people in America have had interactions with the police officers, have had interactions with harassment, or have heard about it, or have taken it far beyond the anecdotal note, and showed that there's a systematic bias that has been demonstrated.
But the idea here that why would he have to stop, why would he have been required--
CUOMO: Right.
COATES: --if he had - if he knew his rights with an officer versus civilian, he has no reason to stop for - for four minutes.
For four minutes, they chased him, Chris. For four minutes, he was probably anxious and afraid and terrified. And for four minutes, they pursued, chased and eventually shot him. That does not add up with what the law allows a citizen, a civilian to do.
[21:55:00]
CUOMO: Understood. Every piece we can get, to understand what motivated this situation to occur, is helpful to us. I'm not saying McMichael knew him from this arrest. I'm saying, clearly--
COATES: No.
CUOMO: --for them to take off out of their house--
COATES: We don't know.
CUOMO: --when this kid just came jogging by, there was more going on than we know at this time.
Laura Coates, thank you, as always, for making sense. Appreciate it. Be right back.
COATES: Thank you.
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CUOMO: Some tough times, hard facts, hard situations, hard feelings. But it's not all that way. How about we end on some great news to share?
You remember earlier this month, when we brought you the story of Dr. J, Dr. Julia Iafrate, a frontline healthcare hero from Canada, who was denied a U.S. Green Card despite volunteering to treat Coronavirus patients in New York, had a slew of other things. She worked for the U.S. Ski team. She, you know, she has all these credentials that she got here.
Tonight, we're happy to report she is one step closer to receiving that Green Card. USCIS reopened her case, approved her National Interest Waiver.
