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Cuomo Prime Time

Trump: Most Cases In World Is "Badge Of Honor" On Testing; CDC Releases Detailed Guidance On Reopening; Veterans Administration Reports More Than 1,000 Deaths, But Leaves Out Hundreds Who Died In State-Run Homes. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired May 19, 2020 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[21:00:00]

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN HOST, CUOMO PRIME TIME: So the model, cited by the White House, for reopening implication, projects less deaths between now and August, if and only if people wear masks.

So, Trump, of course, refuses to wear one. That's all you need to know about this President. Forget the rest of the noise about what he's taking or what he's doing. History will remember his as the story of inaction, inaction on masks, testing, tracing.

And I hope now you know why. He sees it all as bad because he just wants to reopen, regardless of the risks, because he thinks it is would be better for him. He does not care what happens to the rest of us apparently.

So tonight, I have no interest in what he's saying or not doing. I want the best ideas on what you and I should do for our families, how to handle work situation, school, barbecues, trips, pools, parks, because change is coming ready or not.

So, let's do what the White House won't. Let's figure out the best way to protect ourselves. Together, as ever as one, let's get after it.

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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

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CUOMO: Look, it's too easy a case to make. It's a quick reality check, OK? Despite America not having the largest population in the world, right, we know that, we do have more COVID cases than anywhere else.

This is bad, period, except in the mind of one man, the guy who thinks magic pills and disappearing viruses are real.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: When we have a lot of cases, I don't look at that as a bad thing. I look at that as, in a certain respect, as being a good thing, because it means our testing is much better. So, if we were testing a million people, instead of 14 million people,

we would have far fewer cases, right? So, I view it as a badge of honor. Really, it's a badge of honor.

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CUOMO: First of all, for badge of honor, he would have wanted to test sooner. But let's take his number.

The President says we've done 14 million tests. The COVID Tracking Project puts it at about 12 million. But let's give it to Trump, assume 14 million.

Still, the math that matters here is how many tests you do per capita, per person, why? Because if you don't do it per population, you're not going to know how much penetration you're getting into that society. It's not about the raw number of tests.

So, the real metric is that we've done about one test for every 28 - no, we've done 28 tests for every 1,000 of us, 28 tests per 1,000 people, OK? So, if that's the metric, an aggregation of data from last week shows that more than 30 countries rank higher than we do in per capita testing. That's apples to apples.

Now, few takeaways on why, we suck on this all-important metric because we started late after the virus started to spread in communities.

Remember, Trump did not make testing a priority. He was too busy calling COVID a hoax, blaming it on Democrats, and telling us all it would go away after a dozen cases.

Also, almost every other country, and this probably matters most, at least to me, you tell me your thoughts, almost every other country that has shown progress here, has made testing and tracing their organizing principle that drives reopening because, you know, facts, you know, for some, magical thinking isn't enough.

But I will repeat the part that you have to remember here. Our President doesn't like testing, or tracing, or masks for basically one bad reason. They may make people less pumped to reopen recklessly.

This is the only - is one thing I want you to hear from him tonight, and it says everything you need to know.

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TRUMP: When you test, you have a case. When you test, you find something is wrong with people.

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CUOMO: "When you test, you find a case. You find out something is wrong with people."

Finding out who is sick and who is not is not wrong. It is information that helps us make decisions that are right. Again, please remember this. This is your brain on Trump.

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TRUMP: When you test, you have a case. When you test, you find something is wrong with people.

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CUOMO: That's all you need to know about how he thinks about this. "More cases, wrong. Wearing mask, no." Taking pill that even State News admits may kill someone like him, "That's the right thing to do."

[21:05:00]

Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here. There are no cure for what's ailing that kind of thinking, so I'll keep you out of that, and let's deal with some of the big components of where we are right now, and how we have to understand it.

First, the CDC just put out the rest of their guidelines. There've been a lot of drama about this, people in the CDC saying they were silenced. Then they put out what I thought was kind of a secondary flow chart system of what to do and not.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right.

CUOMO: It really seemed liked the for dummies version of how to handle this.

Now about 60 pages, of what was 68 pages, more detailed assessments of how to deal with restaurants and stuff reopening. It seem to be slipped out there. There's no fanfare.

GUPTA: Right.

CUOMO: But what do you make of the release?

GUPTA: Yes, I mean, that's exactly right. I mean, this should be a much bigger deal.

I mean this is - this is real life, as you were just talking about in your opening, Chris, I mean, about how to navigate your life forward, the real decisions people are making about "Should I get on a place, am I going to do summer vacation," kids going to summer camp, whatever it may be, "Am I going to go out to eat, to a restaurant?"

All these types of things are the things that the CDC is expert at, understanding the virus in real-life situations.

Nick Valencia, who's been reporting on this, said that, first of all, the - the questions of religious gatherings, which was in the original 68-page document, not in the flow sheets that you just recommended, is also not in this now 60-page document. So, for whatever reason, Chris, that is still taken out of there.

And - but, you know, you do have some - some real data, I think, that, you know, we're going to go through it, and figure out what exactly this means for people who are trying to navigate some of these decisions.

I'm surprised, you know, that this isn't getting more attention. I mean I think there's going to be some - a lot of it's going to look familiar because of the Gating Criteria, saying States should have, you know, 14-day downward trend, they should have plenty of testing in place, things that we've heard.

But you get the sense from this document that it's really leaving it more up to the discretion of governors now, as opposed to being a sort of national cohesive strategy. So, they don't - they don't want this to get a lot of attention, clearly, Chris.

CUOMO: A study came out about secondary infection rates. It's kind of complicated. I read through a summary of it. I didn't really get it. What matters about this study?

GUPTA: I think the thing that matters the most is that this, first of all, leave aside whether or not people were actually re-infected, for a second.

People who tested positive again, after they, you know, had thought that they had recovered from their infection, one of the things they really wanted to know was were they still contagious, could they still spread this?

And what they did was they looked at these people who, again, tested positive again, developed symptoms again, and tested positive, and they found that none of their close contacts contracted the virus.

So, even if they are still having these viral particles that's causing their tests to come back positive, it does not appear to make them contagious, which is - which is really good news.

I mean the idea that, first of all, someone could retest positive, I think, is still an open question. But if they could test positive, and also spread it, Chris, that would be a huge problem, in terms of trying to contain this.

CUOMO: Right.

GUPTA: I'll tell you, I'd go out on a limb, you've talked - you and I have talked about this. But, and I think you agree with me on this, but the idea that once you're exposed to the virus, you do develop antibodies for some time.

I mean you know that for yourself because you've donated the antibodies. I think there's going to be a period of time where you are protected. I mean that's just the way it typically works.

It would be hard to believe that for some reason this is behaving completely differently, and people have no protection after they've been infected. We don't know how long that protection is. We don't know how strong. But we know with things like SARS, for example, which is another Coronavirus, people did seem to have antibodies for months, even years, after their infection, which would be a very positive thing here.

If people get infected, and they have that protection for a period of time, that is how you start to get to, you know, getting some more broad-based immunity.

CUOMO: Yes, I hope so.

I know the clinicians, in my life, told me "If people say that they want to get tested, but they're not showing any symptoms, tell them to get an antibody test, if they have access to it," which again, is another issue but - because you're better off knowing that.

If you don't have any symptoms, you're better off knowing if you have the antibodies than if you have COVID, because if you do have COVID, do you have enough virus in the system to be contagious, or just to get picked up on a test, it gets a little confusing.

Let me ask you about something else--

GUPTA: That's right.

CUOMO: --here, Sanjay. The - as of Tuesday, at least 17 States have recorded a clear upward trend of average new daily cases. It's a rise of about at least 10 percent over the past seven days. This is based on an analysis of data from Johns Hopkins.

Now, how concerning is this in this context? We don't know that this is about reopening because most of the States that were going up, that we're seeing the increases in, they were increasing already before reopening.

GUPTA: Right.

CUOMO: Right?

GUPTA: That's right. That's right. They did not follow, again, the Gating Criteria that we talked about earlier.

[21:10:00]

So, I don't think any of the States have actually met that Criteria in terms of both having a documented 14-day downward trend, and the availability of robust testing, to quickly identify people who are newly infected.

Chris, I think that it's tough to know what to make of this data. There's a couple reasons why.

I think we're following this day-to-day, which is understandable, but I think we're going to have to widen the aperture a little bit, in terms of how we look at these numbers, and look at them really week- to-week and even over a month. You know, you know, people know now between the time that someone might get exposed, the time they might develop symptoms, the time they might get a test, the time they might get hospitalized, if they die, sadly die, how long that takes, those are - my point is there's a long period of - period in between here.

So, I don't think we really know what's going on. We've seen a little bit of what happened in Texas over the last few days. As they opened, the numbers jumped up. It could have been that more people were tested that day.

It's tough to really read into this data on a - on a day-to-day, even over a couple of week time period. I think we're going to need to look at this over several weeks.

I also think that even though States are reopening, Chris, I think, one of the things that comes out of this IHME model is how are people behaving still, even if they're reopened?

A, are people going out as much, even if it's open? Some people choose not to still. And if they do go out, just simply wearing masks, according to Chris Murray, the Author of these - these projections, makes a huge difference, he said.

They expected the numbers to be higher. They revised their projection down, despite States opening. Why? Mainly because he said, people were wearing masks more than they expected, and the masks were having more of an impact than they realized.

So, there is a piece of potentially good news or actionable news, I think, for people who go out. You know, wear your mask. A lot of people are doing it. But it really does seem to make a difference.

CUOMO: Why am I laughing? A lot of people are doing it. That's what they base their model on, in terms of the downward projection. And the President won't wear a mask.

GUPTA: Yes.

CUOMO: I mean how do we expect--

GUPTA: Yes.

CUOMO: --people in this country to really take it seriously when doing so means they have to basically believe their President is an idiot?

GUPTA: You know, this - this worries me. I mean, and I know, it's - you know, I'm not trying to hammer this point.

But obviously, the President is worried about an exposure that he had in the White House. I think that's why he started taking this medication, right? I mean there sounds like there was a significant exposure as--

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CUOMO: And he has people tested all the time. And he's doing deep tracing on the people who get it.

GUPTA: Right. But he's worried enough--

CUOMO: All the things he doesn't want to do on a national level. So, he's worried.

GUPTA: Correct. He's worried, and he's worried about himself, which is why he is taking this medication now, a medication that has no proven benefit, in terms of preventing the infection.

Yet, he's worried enough about it from his exposure that he's taking a medicine. But if he has the virus in his body, he also knows that he could be then spreading it.

That's why you wear the mask, to decrease the spread. So, he's worried enough about him actually having it that he'll take a medication that is potentially harmful, has no proven benefit, but not wear a mask to--

CUOMO: Mask--

GUPTA: --to decrease the spread.

CUOMO: Mask as metaphor, Sanjay.

GUPTA: Doesn't make sense.

CUOMO: Not everybody's like you.

GUPTA: I know.

CUOMO: You will do things for other people, no matter the level of personal sacrifice. There are other people in this country, like our President, who focuses on what is good for him.

Hydroxychloroquine, or whatever it's called, is good for him because it fuels the narrative that nobody else knows what they're talking about.

Ignoring testing and tracing and reopening recklessly is good for him, because it hopefully will get some economic energy going, and the risk he'll blame on someone else. Wearing a mask is about everybody else. Not his focus.

GUPTA: That's right.

CUOMO: But it is yours, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and that is why some will call you a "National Treasure." You are the best. Thank you, my friend.

GUPTA: That means a lot from you, Chris. Thank you. You're welcome.

CUOMO: Are you kidding me? I wouldn't be here without you. If you hadn't kept my head steady, I don't know. I'd still be in the basement.

GUPTA: An honor to do it, my brother.

CUOMO: You're the best.

GUPTA: An honor.

CUOMO: I love you and thank you.

All right, so look, this is the reality.

GUPTA: Bye.

CUOMO: Put your arms around it, ready or not, we're going to reopen, all right? But this is not going to be a summer like ones we used to know, or at least, let's put it this way now, you shouldn't have a summer like the ones we used to know.

We have to be smarter, even than our leadership sometimes. We have to be as safe as we possibly can. Now, what's the hard question? How? "Yes, I get it, Cuomo, we need to be safe. How? How do I do these things?"

You're right. That's why I brought in a better mind, OK? We have somebody who has taken the time to figure out what are the safest routes to doing a lot of the options that we'll have this summer, and some of the things that won't be an option, next.

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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

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[21:15:00]

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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.

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CUOMO: All right, Memorial Day is literally right at the end of the week, OK? So, what do we do? We'll start with the things that we want to do, OK?

The Infectious Diseases Society of America warned today there is no real playbook for how to handle the options we're going to have. So, we had to ask somebody to help us think it through from a clinical perspective.

That person is Dr. Preeti Malani, part of the group I just mentioned. She's also the Chief Health Officer at the University of Michigan.

Dr. Malani, in terms of figuring out why we have to figure this out for ourselves, Preeti, we don't have to look any further than the CDC just slipping out the extended package of procedures and guidelines without any fanfare for the government. This is clearly not their priority.

[21:20:00]

DR. PREETI MALANI, CHIEF HEALTH OFFICER & INFECTIOUS DISEASES PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Yes, summer is a special time.

And I think a lot of us are looking forward to it, particularly when you live in a Northern climate. And summer is going to be a little bit different this year. And we're hoping it's also a chance to set us up for success for a fall reopening.

CUOMO: So Preeti, let's look at these things once - we'll put it up on the screen for people, just kind of different baskets of - of things that will come up.

Concerts and festivals, do we think that that will be in places that reopen? Do you think that that is a possibility? And if so, is it a "Maybe" or a "No way?"

MALANI: So, concerts and festivals, where people are actually going to physically be present are a "No way," in my mind, at this point, in most areas. It's just a little too early to have that kind of gathering.

And unless you can do it in a way where you have really good social distancing, and very little density, I would not count on concerts and festivals this summer.

CUOMO: So, Preeti and the Mo-Man aren't going to take on Burning Man this summer. Is that what you're trying to say?

MALANI: Yes, that's right.

CUOMO: All right, amusement and theme parks.

MALANI: So--

CUOMO: So big for families.

MALANI: Yes. Amusement parks and theme parks are - are also complicated.

And they're a place where people travel from a long ways. So, you can have international travelers, which can create problems in this case, and also, just the crowds, the lines and everything.

So, my sense is that amusement parks are going to have a little bit of difficulty opening, but case-by-case, there may be situations. And I - I read about something where a Safari park at a zoo where they just had families drive through with their own cars.

So, there may be some small settings like that. But, as a whole, I wouldn't expect to see the traditional large amusement parks open at the scale that they're usually open. CUOMO: So, the other things on the list, they all kind of fall into the same basket, sporting events, parades, anything where you have masses of humanity, you think it's going to be the same bucket of restrictions. Are any of those more or better choices than any other?

MALANI: You know, not really. Again, unless you can really limit the number of people, and you can have social distancing involved, or maybe do it a bit virtually.

Sports is been interesting because there's been some discussion about having no spectators, or having, you know, players play within controlled leagues. But I haven't seen that move forward, and it's complicated to make it move forward.

CUOMO: All right, so that's the big ticket entertainment.

Let's look at the micro entertainment. You get invited to a barbecue. What are the questions to ask yourself?

MALANI: So, who's coming? Where is it? How many people?

And again, I think picnics and barbecues, they're part of - they're part of summertime. But they're going to be probably limited more to your own household, or like a controlled group of people that you are part of, a community. I think people are going to entertain at home a little more than being out and about.

But, you know, within small groups, especially if you can make sure everyone is staying healthy, and everyone is taking care to not come sick, and within reason they're masking, and obviously, they can't eat and mask. But, you know, practicing those basic - those basic things would be - go a long way.

CUOMO: And there is no magic number where six or less, you're good, or 16 or less, you're good. So, it's going to have to be common sense.

In terms of how you party, the idea of, "Hey, stay away from a punch bowl because you don't want to have somebody who's, you know, had a couple too many, and they're sticking their hand in there, with their cup, individual drinks, throw-away plates, and utensils, so that you don't have to worry about risks of washing," are those practical concerns?

MALANI: You know, absolutely. But those are simple things that we can all do. I mean it's maybe not great for the environment. But, you know, just making sure that we're not sharing too many things, that it's maybe a little bit less potluck.

If there are a couple families coming together, maybe everyone bring their own food, maybe you eat ahead of time, and then you just, you know, share your company instead of food.

CUOMO: How about masks at social events?

MALANI: Yes. So, masks at social events are something that I would recommend. And I think it's going to be part of what we - we're going to see. We're going to see it now, and we're probably going to see it in the fall, as schools and universities think about coming back also.

And again, outdoors, the risk is a little bit less, and particularly if you're on your own, or maybe just with one other person. But in any kind of enclosed space, I feel that wearing the mask, it's a respectful thing.

It's saying that I care about the people around me, and it's something that I would recommend. It doesn't, however, excuse you, if you are ill, to come into that situation.

CUOMO: Well right.

MALANI: And that's got to be something that we need to train ourselves to do.

CUOMO: Kids, you're going to encourage them to be outside. We do that anyway because, let's be honest--

MALANI: Yes.

CUOMO: --they're probably not watching this show right now. I know mine aren't. And adults hate to be around them. So, we want them outside anyway, if we could get them there.

And to encourage games where it's not like pile on top of one another, it's more like not Tag. Figure out games for kids where they can keep a little distance.

Except, what do you do when they're throwing something to one another?

[21:25:00]

MALANI: You know, I'm OK with them throwing something to one another. But they do need to practice good hand hygiene. And again, training them, not to touch their face, not to touch their eyes, their nose, but, you know, they're kids.

And I think that they should get out there. You can decrease risk, you can't completely eliminate it. And, you know, frankly, there's a risk to not being outside, in my mind.

CUOMO: Got you. Now, one thing that's changed with our thinking, and, you know, masks, it's changed, "You don't them, leave them alone, give them to healthcare workers, you'll touch your face when you put them on." Now we're much more pro-mask. OK, things evolve.

Surfaces. I have stains all over my house from using harsh cleaners on every surface that we have because we thought that's the way we get it. Now, we're not as worried about surfaces. We're worried about being in closer contact for longer duration.

Is that something for people's heads?

MALANI: Yes, I would agree with that.

And Chris, by the way, I'm glad that you're feeling better. And I'm sure you've spent time cleaning your - your house.

The - the role of surfaces is a little bit complicated. And they're - the environment does play a role. But I think, to some extent, it's been a little overemphasized from the usual respiratory route.

And that is the most important thing like just making sure we're not breathing on each other, coughing on each other, you know, sharing too many secretions, sharing cups. And again, it go hand-in-hand. But the emphasis on the cleaning and disinfection, it's important. But it's not the only thing.

CUOMO: OK, how about this one, pools? You know from Caddyshack, "We have a pool, and a pond. Pond's better for you." Is pool OK because chlorine is in the pool and chlorine will kill the virus? But what if it's a salt pool? How much chlorine? You know, what are the rules?

MALANI: Yes. Yes, so pools and, you know, for that matter, beaches and swimming, tends to be low risk.

The problem is it's everything else that's happening outside the pool. And in the case of large public pools, it's the crowding, it's the sitting on the deck, it's the people lining up.

And in my City, in Ann Arbor today, we got a notice saying the City pools weren't going to open this summer. So, I think we're going to see more of that.

Whether private pools and - in smaller clubs they're going to open, whether they can pull it off, again, it's not the - the swimming, that's the issue. It's everything that happens outside the pool that's the issue. You know, standard pool climate chlorine (ph) should take care of Coronavirus.

CUOMO: And chlorine, you think, kills the virus, do we know?

MALANI: I do believe it does. That's everything I've read--

CUOMO: OK. But - but what you do in the pool--

MALANI: --suggests that it does.

CUOMO: --like, you know, one of my best friends, John McNiff (ph), I like to drown him in the pool whenever we're together, just as a show of dominance. I should give him a pass this summer though just - just revival?

MALANI: Yes. I - I think he deserves a pass for sure.

CUOMO: No. He certainly does not deserve one. But I will give him one anyway. So, it's about how you do things.

Now the beach, we watched beaches open this weekend. And I was shocked that anybody thought people would go onto the beach, immediately run into the water, swim and then run home, and not stay on the sand out in California.

MALANI: Yes.

CUOMO: Of course, on Saturday, when it was nicer, we saw exactly what people are going to do on the beach. So, if you are taking to the beach, or hanging out around a lake, or on the side of a river, what's the best way to do it for the family?

MALANI: You know, I would say, go to places where there are not a lot of people. And, you know, again, that's going to vary depending on where you live. I've seen that some of the beaches, they've closed off their parking lot.

They've done their best to try to socially distance. They've even like drawn circles in the sand. But, you know, this is going to come down to everyone trying to be smart, and trying to be responsible, so that we don't hurt other people.

CUOMO: Preeti, what about family trips?

Is the emphasis this year that if you're going to get away, really get away like, you know, go up into a place where you guys can kind of be camping on your own or hiking on your own or, you know, what's the guidance?

MALANI: You know, the guidance is going to vary, Chris, from place to place. And a lot of States still have restrictions. My State, Michigan, there's still restrictions on travel in most of the State.

And, you know, my sense is, is that people are going to be traveling closer to home. Now that said, there is some essential travel people have to do. They've been away from their family. They have older family members they need to visit.

And I think, you know, you just have to plan it and take that risk because, again, you can't decrease and eliminate - you can decrease risk, you can't eliminate it.

Bu my sense is a lot of people are going to be taking shorter road trips. They're going to be staying in smaller places with their household unit, and maybe a small number of people, and they're going to limit how much they're out and about.

CUOMO: It's going to be a very interesting time because the options are going to be there, Doc. The idea that people won't do it--

MALANI: Sure.

CUOMO: --when it's happening in their circles and their communities, I think it's a little bit too much social pressure. And people have really had it. We're seeing an acceleration of frustration.

So Dr. Malani, thank you so much--

MALANI: Thank you.

CUOMO: --for kind of understanding these new safety state of mind we have to be in. Now, and we'll - we'll keep taking. As the new options come up in

society, you'll come back, Doc, please, and let's go through the different permutations of thought on each new set of options.

Thank you very much, the best for you and your family. Thank you for the kind word.

MALANI: Thank you.

CUOMO: All right, so now other things, not when you're having a good time, but about college, OK?

[21:30:00]

What are we going to do now? Different schools are telling us different things, OK? There is new modeling that could help us plan for university life in the fall. How do we educate students safely during a pandemic? We have another top Doctor.

And remember, if we're going to have to go back to work, what do we want to keep in mind for that? You know, the things that we must do, how do we do those? Next.

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TEXT: CUOMO PRIME TIME.

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TEXT: LET'S GET AFTER IT.

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CUOMO: Well we're going to have tough choices to make in this pandemic, OK? Just because things are reopening doesn't mean life gets easier. Colleges and universities are starting to lay out their plans to reopen in the fall, if they choose to do so at all.

So, this study came out, from Cornell University, and it has some models that are a little scary but also may show us what can and cannot work. Let's bring in Dr. William Schaffner.

It's good to have you, Doc.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, INFECTIOUS DISEASE SPECIALIST, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY, CDC ADVISER: Hi. Hi, Chris. Good to be with you.

[21:35:00]

CUOMO: So look, the main headline to the Cornell study is that even though a very small percentage of students, in pairs, take the same course, pretty much like 60 percent of them, six out of 10 are going to reach each other within two steps that, you know, you start to get these multiplier effects of kids that are just going to find more and more ways to be in contact, just through course load, let alone socializing.

So, what do we do in terms of sending our kids back to school - college?

SCHAFFNER: Yes. Well that's a big question, isn't it? And every school is wrestling with that question as we go on.

My own school is also - it has a number of Task Forces looking at all of these issues. And what that study told us is something, in a very formal way, is something that we already knew.

A college is a semi-enclosed community with a lot of close interaction, all the way from dormitory living, if it's a residential school, to all of those classes, to all of that extracurricular work.

And they're all together. They mix rather freely. And there's a great deal of closeness, which of course is the sort of environment that our friend, the Coronavirus, really enjoys for spread.

CUOMO: Right.

SCHAFFNER: So, there's a lot of concern about how - what will be the new normal on campus, if the campus decides to open.

CUOMO: Right. And one of the shortcuts was seen as being, "Well, we'll keep it divided by major," so you'll have smaller groups.

Problem with that is, you know, anybody who has been to college, electives. You take these courses that are outside your major. So, what are you going to say? You can't do those anymore?

Cornell used this Oenology class. They do wine tasting and stuff that everybody wants to be a part of for obvious reasons. So, even though it's not your major, you're mixing with all these other kids, you know, 500-plus in the class, or whatever it is.

So, what does it tell us about how to do university life safely? Does it tell us you can't? Or is there a certain risk assessment?

SCHAFFNER: Remember, we can't do it safely, Chris. We can mitigate risk. What we try to do is reduce the risk as low as we can. And we look at everything.

Some of the things we're thinking of, for example is asking students, before they arrive on campus, to actually be on the Honor system, not to go any - to shelter-at-home, not to go to any large parties.

So, when they come to us, maybe we'll test them all. And what sort of testing scheme will we have?

What do we do in the dormitories, for example? Could we have no singles? Oh, but then what do we do with the kids who used to double up? And where do we put them? We looked at bathrooms. Could we disable some of the sinks and shower stalls, for example, to promote social distancing? And then we decided, oops, the number of sinks and shower stalls actually are so small that we're kind of cramped already. We can't - we can't reduce them further.

Could large lecture hall - large lecture halls have the students spread out and some of them take the courses virtually rather than in- person?

It goes on and on, extra-curricular activities, the newspaper, the Chess Club.

Did I mention athletics, intramural as well as intercollegiate? I think, in some sports, as I recall, football, close contact is part of the sport. How do we deal with that? We're not all, as I was, a cross country runner. That's a little bit easier.

But the challenges are endless, and everybody's working on how to mitigate the risk. Are we all going to go around wearing masks? It may be encouraged. Should it be obligatory? You name it, there's a challenge.

CUOMO: Better not make it obligatory. Otherwise the President won't be able to visit any college campuses. The - the idea of - I guess the answer is in how you're phrasing the question, how do we mitigate risk?

That assumes, you know, this is going to happen. And do you believe that we see that in the fall that going to college, going to school is too impractical to do remotely for major universities and institutions you're going to see on campus life in some form, modified or not?

SCHAFFNER: Well, at the present time, we've already seen some announcements from some schools at the extremities. "Yes, we're opening up, and we're going to be as close to normal as possible." "Nope, we're not opening up for the first semester. We're going to see how things go."

I anticipate, because our society is opening up, that by the fall, there will be a general opening up. And every school will be coping with how to do that in a coherent fashion.

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I can tell you there will be a lot of student, faculty, and staff education about social distancing and the norms that are expected. They may not always be enforced. There are always some rascals who avoid them. But I think we can get a great deal of compliance.

CUOMO: Now, we're only talking about the students. You have thousands and thousands of teaching staff, and people who run the institution itself. What about for them? Because that's going to be an extension of the new workplace, right?

Certain people are going to have to show up at physical plants. They're going to have to be in offices. Not everybody can work remotely. What does that mean?

SCHAFFNER: Well that's exactly right. And we're thinking about that very carefully.

And, on top of that, just to make it a little more nuanced, there will be senior people and indeed students, who have chronic underlying illnesses, diabetes, for example, and other chronic illnesses. Can we make modifications to further reduce their risk?

Everything is still up for discussion. But time is moving on. And pretty soon, all of us in all of these schools are going to have to decide that.

And mind you, what we say has implications for all the communities, in which these schools occur, because there's a whole array of economic activity in those communities that depends on these colleges and universities. And that's also a consideration, to be quite frank.

CUOMO: One of the options that I was talking about, with Izzy, the EP of the show, earlier this afternoon, is an earlier schedule, where they go back, during the summer, so they're not as exposed to flu season, and stuff, and maybe around Thanksgiving, they come home and they stay until after January.

Lot of these things are not going to be well met. But we're going to have to pick our priorities, and figure out, as you say, how to best mitigate risk.

Dr. Schaffner, always a plus, thank you for the value added.

SCHAFFNER: My pleasure.

CUOMO: All right, so we're heading into Memorial Day, all right? And as we all know, that is the time that we think about the sacrifice of those who gave their lives in times of war and strife to this country.

Did you know that we should be acutely grieving the loss of more than 1,000 people in the VA health system because of Coronavirus? Did you know that that's how high the number is? Neither did a lot of people.

You know why? Because we don't really know the real number. There may be hundreds more veterans who've died, who couldn't get into the VA facility, who were in state-run facilities, who weren't counted in either place.

What the hell are we doing to the people who are supposed to matter the most? When is the last time you heard from the VA Secretary, by the way?

We have an advocate, PJ Rieckhoff, friend of mine, and of show. He'll tell you what's really going on in that community, and more importantly, what isn't, next.

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CUOMO: I don't have to tell you what Memorial Day or Decoration Day is about. We honor our Fallen, the people who put sacrifice first in their lives, in our Armed Forces, for the betterment of the rest of us.

But the VA now reports over a 1,000 people having died of Coronavirus among those who've gotten some type of care from its facilities. But here's the problem. We are letting down the people who are supposed to matter most, once again, OK?

Why? They are a, by percentage, older group than you may suspect. There are many of them that are vulnerable, especially to something like Coronavirus, OK? Many of them, when they get older, are in homes, where there's density, where they are really vulnerable, OK?

The estimates are that they don't have any idea, that's the presumption, of how many dead there are. Some - there are States like 25 States - 28 States aren't even counting the dead among the veterans because they think somebody else is going to do it.

For more detail, on just how screwed up this is, I asked PJ Rieckhoff to come on. He's a Veterans' Advocate. He's a Veteran of the Iraq War. He's the Founder of the IAVA, and the Host of the Angry Americans podcast.

PJ, as always, thank you for your service to the country, I love you, brother. I love your family. Thank you for making me remember what's going on with the veterans.

You send me notes all the time, "Where's Wilkie? Where's Wilkie? Where's the Secretary of the VA? Why isn't he out giving us information about the veterans?" And you're right. What do you understand the situation to be?

PAUL RIECKHOFF, IRAQ WAR VETERAN & VETERANS ADVOCATE, FOUNDER, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA, FOUNDER AND EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, RIGHTEOUS MEDIA: The situation is very tough for the veterans' community. I mean they're at high risk. They're in dangerous places, and they're dying.

And going into Memorial Day, at a time when we reflect on people lost in combat, I think we have to stop and take a moment to realize that we're losing veterans every single day in combat with the virus. You mentioned that the VA has reported that a 1,000 are dead. But that's only the veterans that are dying inside VA hospitals. Veterans that are dying at home, veterans that are dying in civilian hospitals, veterans that are dying on the streets because they're homeless, they aren't counted.

And just to put a point on it, in the Holyoke Soldiers' Home, in Holyoke, Massachusetts, 88 veterans have died in one facility. Where is the VA Secretary Wilkie? Where is the President? If we say we stand behind our men and women, how did we let 88 die in one facility?

It's not just there. It's Paramus, New Jersey. It's Stony Brook, New York. It's Alabama. It's Louisiana. These State-run Veterans hospitals across the country are getting decimated, Chris.

CUOMO: Now, what is the chance that they have a good answer?

"Oh well, it's like that everywhere, PJ. We're not doing any worse with the veterans in any other population or they're getting as much of everything or more than anywhere else. It's just a tough problem."

Is that a legit answer?

RIECKHOFF: No. Absolutely not. It's not what America says. It's not what America stands for. And if we really care about the folks who put their lives on the line, we got to show it right now.

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You know, think about the family members that can't get inside the Holyoke Hospital to see their family members. They can't get answers. They can't even bury them with military honors.

And the President hasn't focused on this. He says he supports our veterans. He says he loves our veterans. But where is he? He's been invisible. And I think this cuts to the core of who we are, Chris.

And you mentioned it. They are more than half of the Vets at VA are over 65. Many of them have pre-existing conditions. Many of them have respiratory issues. Vietnam veterans have been exposed to Agent Orange and other issues, so they are at high risk.

And they can also be the cavalry. They can help here, and they can step into the fray. Well we got to have their back, especially going into Memorial Day.

CUOMO: Secretary Wilkie was pushed to talk about the Holyoke situation. Here's what he said.

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ROBERT WILKIE, SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS: The law prohibits us from taking direct control over those nursing homes. We take complaints when we hear complaints.

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CUOMO: "It's not on him."

RIECKHOFF: Yes, it's on him. He is supposed to be the Veterans Advocate for the entire country, not just the ones that that he thinks he's responsible for, and the President should be responsible, too. He's the Commander-in-Chief.

When we're in the military, we say "Leave no man behind, leave no woman behind." We don't say, "Well, there is bureaucratic stuff in the middle and that's why I can't save my buddy."

He should be moving every mountain he can, deploying every resource he can, and getting on the ground there himself to find out what's going on, and get ahead of the curve, find out where the next outbreak is going to be, where the next hospitals that are going to be hit.

It's an ultimate abdication of responsibility. It's unacceptable, and he should be ashamed of an answer like that.

CUOMO: The CARES Act, the bill included $17.2 billion for the Veterans Health Administration. The VA has touted that it's spending money towards homelessness, telehealth, State veterans homes.

What have you been hearing about the reality of how the CARES Act is delivering for our veterans?

RIECKHOFF: Well, they need it. I mean, they need every bit of reinforcement they can get right now. And, in the latest emergency supplemental, VA got about $20 billion.

But it's important to note, Chris, Secretary Wilkie said he didn't need it. He said he didn't need any additional funding, and testified before Congress. He said he had no problem with hiring and staffing when they had tens of thousands of openings.

Nurses were protesting in Atlanta and New Jersey saying they didn't have enough PPE. And he said he had enough PPE.

And then, last week, he took a donation of 500,000 masks from South Korea. If he has enough masks, he has enough PPE, why are we taking donations from South Korea?

I think there is a real disconnect between the reality on the ground and what the Secretary is pushing. He seems to be standing with the politics of the President, instead of the reality of our veterans.

CUOMO: PJ Rieckhoff, listen, it's so important to keep our focus on it. It shocks me every time.

It breaks my heart how easily we forget the people that we love to say matter the most to us. You are one of those people, PJ. And I'll tell you what. You make me proud to be a citizen in this country because you take your responsibility so importantly.

One thing, do you know what kind of car that is you're standing in front of, or you just want to be cool?

RIECKHOFF: First off, love you back. Appreciate your leadership.

Of course, I know what kind of car. It's a '69 Camaro SS-350 (ph). And I think Americans had enough of potted plants and bookcases. So now you can have an American-made Camaro in my garage.

CUOMO: I did not think--

RIECKHOFF: Hope it's refreshing.

CUOMO: --you could be more macho than you were already. But some--

RIECKHOFF: When the - when the pandemic's over, man, me and you can get in it, and ride through Times Square together, and give your brother a high-five.

CUOMO: We'll have our masks on. We'll need them to avoid the 5-0, the Po-Po.

All right, PJ, thank you very much, brother. Be well. I'll talk to you this weekend, all right?

RIECKHOFF: Thank you, brother. Appreciate you back.

CUOMO: All right.

I mean, look, he's always fighting for the brothers and sisters that put their lives on the line for this country, and we have to pay more attention to them. There is just no excuse for us to treat them the worst when they've given us the most.

All right, coming up, Ameri-CAN, small remote grocery store, how do they keep themselves from going hungry there? You won't believe the efforts of one Ameri-CAN, next.

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CUOMO: All right, we have Ameri-CANs and there is something Ameri- CAN'T we have to discuss.

But first the good, the Ameri-CANs. John Lynch of New Jersey lost his father last month from natural causes. He had to say goodbye over FaceTime like so many families have to do now. It's one of the ugliest parts of the tragedy. But the loss inspired him to give.

He launched Operation Connection: The iPad Project. He's gotten dozens of tablets donated for hospitals and nursing homes, across three States, so loved ones, at least, can be digitally face-to-face, be online, and say goodbye to the people they love the most, a beautiful gesture of somebody who knows the pain of not being able to say goodbye.

Another Ameri-CAN, Toshua Parker, he owns a small grocery store in a remote part of Alaska only reachable by boat or plane, OK? His store is the only one in town. Deliveries were cut off. What are they going to do?

Parker and his staff started making 14-hour boat trips to Juneau, 50 miles away, to get supplies from Costco. Now, that is customer service. He is an Ameri-CAN, all right?

Now, the Ameri-CANs bring us together. We need it more than ever. And that's why I have to make an Ameri-CAN'T out of a situation, all right? I'm not even going to ascribe blame in this.

The tradition of first-term presidents inviting their predecessors to the White House to unveil their official portrait, all right, it's always happened, even when they don't like each other, even when the parties are at odds.

We need that right now. It should be happening right now. Trump doesn't want to do it. Obama's saying, "Hey, thanks, but no thanks, I'm fine with you not doing it."

An administration official says there have been talks between the White House and Obama's team for a ceremony. But we know how hard they are to believe. Nothing's been set. Obama's camp reportedly said the former President isn't interested so long as Trump is in Office.

Look, here's what I'm saying. Yes, Trump is sitting President. He's supposed to be the bigger person. He's supposed to make it happen. I'm just saying, right now, this is the last type of thing we need to see.